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Thread: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

  1. #46

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Israel are the 12 stars, the woman of Israel is the city Zion not Mary.



    Simplistic and obvious maybe if you are locked into thinking the man child is the son of Mary in the chapter.

    The woman is a city Zion wherein the 12 stars (tribes) will be around the city

    A woman is directly called a city in Rev 17. Thus rev 12 must be interpreted as such. Israel (Jerusalem/city) is called a woman all throughout scripture but here you want to insert Mary?


    I haven't said anything about Mary. The woman is Israel because the son was promised to be born in Israel lol...ust consider this the man child who was to be born , and rule with a rod of iron

    And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”
    **Isaiah‬ *7:14‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

    Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
    **Psalms‬ *2:6-9, 12‬ *KJV‬‬


    “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.”
    **Isaiah‬ *9:6-8‬ *KJV‬‬

    and so the man child who was to be born...

    “And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”
    **Luke‬ *1:30-33‬ *KJV‬‬

    and so through Herod the dragon begins trying to destroy him, all the way up to his cross and agony . Where he died ' and then rose up and was taken to the right hand of God , to be seated on the eternal throne of David, at Gods right hand. As was always foretold.

    “So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
    **Mark‬ *16:19‬ *KJV‬‬


    as Jesus had said before his death...

    Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
    **Luke‬ *22:69‬ *KJV‬‬

    as David had written beforehand

    "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

    The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.”
    **Psalms‬ *110:1-2, 4-5‬ *KJV‬‬

    "Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself. So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name. Turn us again, O Lord God of hosts, cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.”
    **Psalms‬ *80:17-19‬ *KJV‬‬

    "I have set the Lord always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.”
    **Psalms‬ *16:8-11‬ *KJV‬‬

    So when a person reads peters first two sermons it sort of doesn't leave any place for argument

    “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

    For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. ( psalm 16)

    Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
    **Acts‬ *2:22, 25-36‬ *KJV‬‬


    So then who is the man child who was to be born in Israel ? And then was taken to the throne in heaven? It seems harder to not see it than to try to argue .

    “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.”
    **Colossians‬ *3:1‬ *KJV‬‬

    “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;”
    **Hebrews‬ *10:12‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”
    **Hebrews‬ *12:2‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.”
    **Hebrews‬ *4:14‬ *KJV‬‬

    it's really the foundation of Christianity. The man child is Jesus , who was to be born of the stock of Israel, of the line of David, of the line of Abraham, who would be crucified for our sins see Isaiah 53, and would be raised up see David's writings of the resurrection a few referenced thier by Peter, also scattered through Isaiah. This is all in the prophets including David.

    the son was to be born a man , man child, and would be raised up and seated at the right hand of God, for us in the true kingdom. Zion, is not on earth but is the heavenly Jerusalem .

    “But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,”
    **Hebrews‬ *12:22‬ *KJV‬‬

    If this everlasting kingdom were on earth it wouldn't last forever

    “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
    **2 Peter‬ *3:10, 13‬ *KJV‬‬

    Jesus is in the heavens he is in the true tabernacle in the true Jerusalem it's why he was seated at Gods right hand, Jesus is in the eternal kingdom in Zion, the heaven,y places.

    “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
    **Revelation‬ *21:1-2‬ *KJV‬‬


    thT is our enduring city' it is now in the heavens, and will come unto the new earth from heaven. When you are seeing revelation remember John is taken up into heaven in chapter 4. He sees the inner rooms of the temple in heaven where Jesus is

    “So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.”
    **Hebrews‬ *5:5-6, 9-10‬ *KJVI


    the earth has its priests, but it's all going to end in destruction all the earth and all that's here will be destroyed, there is nothing eternal that we see now, there is a heavenly Jerusalem m that's why Jesus was taken up , and seated on the throne at Gods right hand , the throne of the davidic eternal kingdom.....

    The city in revelation 17 is Jerusalem because it's the Capitol or was of Israel it's where Gods temple was built.

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Israel are the 12 stars, the woman of Israel is the city Zion not Mary.



    Simplistic and obvious maybe if you are locked into thinking the man child is the son of Mary in the chapter.

    The woman is a city Zion wherein the 12 stars (tribes) will be around the city

    A woman is directly called a city in Rev 17. Thus rev 12 must be interpreted as such. Israel (Jerusalem/city) is called a woman all throughout scripture but here you want to insert Mary?


    I haven't said anything about Mary. The woman is Israel because the son was promised to be born in Israel lol...ust consider this the man child who was to be born , and rule with a rod of iron

    And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”
    **Isaiah‬ *7:14‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

    Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
    **Psalms‬ *2:6-9, 12‬ *KJV‬‬


    “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.”
    **Isaiah‬ *9:6-8‬ *KJV‬‬

    and so the man child who was to be born...

    “And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”
    **Luke‬ *1:30-33‬ *KJV‬‬

    and so through Herod the dragon begins trying to destroy him, all the way up to his cross and agony . Where he died ' and then rose up and was taken to the right hand of God , to be seated on the eternal throne of David, at Gods right hand. As was always foretold.

    “So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
    **Mark‬ *16:19‬ *KJV‬‬


    as Jesus had said before his death...

    Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
    **Luke‬ *22:69‬ *KJV‬‬

    as David had written beforehand

    "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

    The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.”
    **Psalms‬ *110:1-2, 4-5‬ *KJV‬‬

    "Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself. So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name. Turn us again, O Lord God of hosts, cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.”
    **Psalms‬ *80:17-19‬ *KJV‬‬

    "I have set the Lord always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.”
    **Psalms‬ *16:8-11‬ *KJV‬‬

    So when a person reads peters first two sermons it sort of doesn't leave any place for argument

    “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

    For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. ( psalm 16)

    Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
    **Acts‬ *2:22, 25-36‬ *KJV‬‬


    So then who is the man child who was to be born in Israel ? And then was taken to the throne in heaven? It seems harder to not see it than to try to argue .

    “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.”
    **Colossians‬ *3:1‬ *KJV‬‬

    “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;”
    **Hebrews‬ *10:12‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”
    **Hebrews‬ *12:2‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.”
    **Hebrews‬ *4:14‬ *KJV‬‬

    it's really the foundation of Christianity. The man child is Jesus , who was to be born of the stock of Israel, of the line of David, of the line of Abraham, who would be crucified for our sins see Isaiah 53, and would be raised up see David's writings of the resurrection a few referenced thier by Peter, also scattered through Isaiah. This is all in the prophets including David.

    the son was to be born a man , man child, and would be raised up and seated at the right hand of God, for us in the true kingdom. Zion, is not on earth but is the heavenly Jerusalem .

    “But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,”
    **Hebrews‬ *12:22‬ *KJV‬‬

    If this everlasting kingdom were on earth it wouldn't last forever

    “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
    **2 Peter‬ *3:10, 13‬ *KJV‬‬

    Jesus is in the heavens he is in the true tabernacle in the true Jerusalem it's why he was seated at Gods right hand, Jesus is in the eternal kingdom in Zion, the heaven,y places.

    “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
    **Revelation‬ *21:1-2‬ *KJV‬‬


    thT is our enduring city' it is now in the heavens, and will come unto the new earth from heaven. When you are seeing revelation remember John is taken up into heaven in chapter 4. He sees the inner rooms of the temple in heaven where Jesus is

    “So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.”
    **Hebrews‬ *5:5-6, 9-10‬ *KJVI


    the earth has its priests, but it's all going to end in destruction all the earth and all that's here will be destroyed, there is nothing eternal that we see now, there is a heavenly Jerusalem m that's why Jesus was taken up , and seated on the throne at Gods right hand , the throne of the davidic eternal kingdom.....

    The city in revelation 17 is Jerusalem because it's the Capitol or was of Israel it's where Gods temple was built.

  2. #47

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    We know the vision are events taking place in heaven. John says directly that events are taking place in heaven.

    1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;
    3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven;
    4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,
    7 And there was war in heaven:

    Where was this war on earth with Michael?



    It does not say that the man child was born on earth. Notice the woman has yet fled to the wilderness (earth) and is still in heaven when the birth occurs.

    5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    And again, if you say this is the birth of Jesus then how does verse 6 and the 3.5 years apply?

    You claim that the child being caught up proves events taking place on earth however look at all the subjects direction DOWN from above to earth.

    4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:
    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness,
    9 And the great dragon was cast out,


    You have created a straw man on the narrative that the man child is Jesus in error while forcing all scriptures in the chapter to align to such an idea.

    see how you cut out the part here though...it sort of changes your logic also shows your willingness to deliberately remove a verse between others to support your point

    “And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
    **Revelation‬ *12:4-5‬ *KJV‬‬


    how can a man child be born in heaven when flesh and blood is not present? Instead of logic, the bible offers the proper interpretations all its self . There is no one else who is ever to be seated on the throne at Gods right hand but Jesus the Christ. He was behoved to born a man, of flesh and blood like us, in order to overcome sin and death, for man, and then be raised up and seated in his eternal place, was before his glory , is now his glory, will forever be his glory to be in the bosom of the father, at his right hand our king and priest.

    came from heaven , partook of flesh and blood like us, returned to,heaven now having been revealed and fulfilling the promises of Gods kingdom being offered to is on earth .....really seems a circular discussion.


    where are all the scriptures explaining the man child is Israel?

  3. #48
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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    how can a man child be born in heaven when flesh and blood is not present?
    That is what Isaiah asked...….

    IS 66
    6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
    7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

    I believe this phenomena is the dry bones coming to life in EZ 37.

    where are all the scriptures explaining the man child is Israel?
    They have been posted several times but you never bother to look.

    IS 66
    6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
    7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

    You see Israel (144,000) will be born in one day, the man child.

  4. #49
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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The harpers were not "caught up" to God's throne. They were already in heaven.

    The harpers are the 144,000 redeemed from the earth and now before the throne in heaven.

    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    rev 15
    2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
    3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

  5. #50
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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    I haven't said anything about Mary. The woman is Israel because the son was promised to be born in Israel lol...ust consider this the man child who was to be born , and rule with a rod of iron
    If you believe the woman in Rev 12 is Israel then when did all these things occur?

    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

    16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Please try to answer...

  6. #51

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    That is what Isaiah asked...….

    IS 66
    6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
    7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

    I believe this phenomena is the dry bones coming to life in EZ 37.



    They have been posted several times but you never bother to look.

    IS 66
    6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
    7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

    You see Israel (144,000) will be born in one day, the man child.


    i always bother to look bro, I don't see anything your saying in the scriptures. You should read that prophecy in Isaiah closer from beginning to end, and determine who " she " is . It's dangerous to just grab a verse and then explain what it means , when the scripture doesn't support it .

    I'm not insulting you or anything bro, we all have our own way of understanding things , I'm not someone who offers a verse and then has to explain what it means I try to use the scripture as much as possible. I need scripture to explain what you are saying. It seems I would have to rely on your interpretation of things to agree, and I see who the man child is clearly from just the scriptures, and understand why the woman is Israel , because all the promises of Jesus were given to Israel , she was expecting a son to be born of a virgin, who would live, speak the gospel of salvation, the kingdom of God, would be crucified for our transgressions, would be raised to life , and then taken up to heaven to the throne....


    to me it's not really even a question that needs explaination just from understanding what the scriptures said before Jesus , and what they say after he same and was exalted to the throne...


    God bless you though. Even if we disagree on the points here I hope we're able to agree on some other subject. No offense meant or taken

  7. #52

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    i always bother to look bro, I don't see anything your saying in the scriptures. You should read that prophecy in Isaiah closer from beginning to end, and determine who " she " is . It's dangerous to just grab a verse and then explain what it means , when the scripture doesn't support it .

    I'm not insulting you or anything bro, we all have our own way of understanding things , I'm not someone who offers a verse and then has to explain what it means I try to use the scripture as much as possible. I need scripture to explain what you are saying. It seems I would have to rely on your interpretation of things to agree, and I see who the man child is clearly from just the scriptures, and understand why the woman is Israel , because all the promises of Jesus were given to Israel , she was expecting a son to be born of a virgin, who would live, speak the gospel of salvation, the kingdom of God, would be crucified for our transgressions, would be raised to life , and then taken up to heaven to the throne....


    to me it's not really even a question that needs explaination just from understanding what the scriptures said before Jesus , and what they say after he same and was exalted to the throne...


    God bless you though. Even if we disagree on the points here I hope we're able to agree on some other subject. No offense meant or taken
    here's the beginning of thT prophecy in Isaiah

    “Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool:

    where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

    He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.”
    **Isaiah‬ *66:1-3‬ *KJV‬‬

    he continues

    “I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.”
    **Isaiah‬ *66:4‬ *KJV‬‬


    this is what Israel did

    And the people served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the Lord, that he did for Israel.

    And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the Lord, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel. And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord, and served Baalim: And they forsook the Lord God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the Lord to anger. And they forsook the Lord, and served Baal and Ashtoreth.”
    **Judges‬ *2:7, 10-13‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord, and forgat the Lord their God, and served Baalim and the groves. Therefore the anger of the Lord was hot against Israel, and he sold them into the hand of Chushan–rishathaim king of Mesopotamia: and the children of Israel served Chushan–rishathaim eight years.

    And when the children of Israel cried unto the Lord, the Lord raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother. And the Spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the Lord delivered Chushan–rishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushan–rishathaim.

    And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the Lord: and the Lord strengthened Eglon the king of Moab against Israel, because they had done evil in the sight of the Lord.

    But when the children of Israel cried unto the Lord, the Lord raised them up a deliverer, Ehud the son of Gera, a Benjamite, a man lefthanded: and by him the children of Israel sent a present unto Eglon the king of Moab.”
    **Judges‬ *3:7-10, 12, 15‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the Lord, when Ehud was dead.”
    **Judges‬ *4:1‬ *KJV‬‬


    I won't bore you but this continually happens , later in prophecy God begins calling Israel , especially Jerusalem and Judah whore, talks about how when he first chose them they were beautiful, he adorned them with beauty and gave them glory, precious gems were given her , the lord took them as his " bride" making covenant. Between they and he. Later he explains " you kept playing the whore serving other gods , your prophets prophecy lies , your priests are profane to me, your sacrifices are abhorrent to me , you have broken and defiled the v
    Covenant....

    so because you played the whore and chose other gods, and forsook the lord your God who saved you, I will turn you over to your lovers and they will defile you and lift up your skirt in the sight of nations, I will punish you because you have shared your cup of fornications with all those around you , ...ect...

    Israel began beautiful walking in Joshua's generation in the commands and ways of the lord, when that generation passed , they began worshipping the gods of the people they came into contact with intermarrying between Jews and others of different religions...worship of false die ties , they made altars all over Jerusalem and sacrificed and burnt incense to the false gods, they prayed them and worshipped them even painted portraits of other gods in Gods temple....


    Israel begins as beautiful, and then is pursued by the dragon ...later you see the whore is Jerusalem in her defiled state, riding upon the beast who pursued her beforehand .

    she was taken away into the wilderness on wings of an eagle ...that's from the song of Moses in the law. Israel was carried on Gods wings like an eagle into the wilderness for a time.....

    Jesus said the blood of all the prophets would be accounted to Israel , Jerusalem specifically because they always persecuted the ones who came speaking Gods word. Stones them killed them rejected them ran them out of town...read the. Book of Jeremiah, and the song of Moses, it sheds light on some things in revelation

  8. #53

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Israel are the 12 stars, the woman of Israel is the city Zion not Mary.



    Simplistic and obvious maybe if you are locked into thinking the man child is the son of Mary in the chapter.

    The woman is a city Zion wherein the 12 stars (tribes) will be around the city

    A woman is directly called a city in Rev 17. Thus rev 12 must be interpreted as such. Israel (Jerusalem/city) is called a woman all throughout scripture but here you want to insert Mary?
    Something to consider regarding the Woman.

    The covenant of God was promised, confirmed, and sealed in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This is why the Woman is in Jacob and his seed (seed being one, Christ Jesus - thru the tribe of Judah), rather than applied directly to all the 12 stars or 12 decedent's of Jacob.

    Part of Jacob direct decedents were cut off, especially the tribe of Dan. The seed came thru and by Judah rather than lumping in all the 12 descendants of Jacob as to the woman (who brought forth the man child).

  9. #54

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The harpers are the 144,000 redeemed from the earth and now before the throne in heaven.

    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    rev 15
    2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
    3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
    Here is something else to consider. Did you notice that the tribe of Dan was not sealed 12,000?

    If you believe the 144,000 are the ones that were redeemed under the old covenant, this may make you rethink that idea.

  10. #55

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Here's a good example of what I'm saying

    “Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

    Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine. Then washed I thee with water; yea, I thoroughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil. I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *16:1-2, 8-14‬ *KJV‬‬


    that's Israel represented by the beautiful woman who gives birth to the messiah,


    and the image of the whore takes shape from the several prophecies like the rest here

    “But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was. And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so. Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them, And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.

    Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter, That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them? And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood. And it came to pass after all thy wickedness, (woe, woe unto thee! saith the Lord God That thou hast also built unto thee an eminent place, and hast made thee an high place in every street. Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms.

    How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord God, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman; In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire; But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband! They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom. And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary. Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord:


    Thus saith the Lord God; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them; Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness. And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.


    **Ezekiel‬ *16:15-18, 20-25, 30-38, *KJV‬‬


    there are several more that fill in the rest , John is seeing a spiritual vision , it carries a message of things that God has been showing and foretelling since the beginning through prophets. The way to understand revelation , is to seek the prophets beforehand, and the rest of scripture.

  11. #56

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    Here's a good example of what I'm saying

    “Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

    Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine. Then washed I thee with water; yea, I thoroughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil. I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *16:1-2, 8-14‬ *KJV‬‬


    that's Israel represented by the beautiful woman who gives birth to the messiah,


    and the image of the whore takes shape from the several prophecies like the rest here

    “But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was. And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so. Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them, And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.

    Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter, That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them? And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood. And it came to pass after all thy wickedness, (woe, woe unto thee! saith the Lord God That thou hast also built unto thee an eminent place, and hast made thee an high place in every street. Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms.

    How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord God, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman; In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire; But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband! They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom. And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary. Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord:


    Thus saith the Lord God; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them; Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness. And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.


    **Ezekiel‬ *16:15-18, 20-25, 30-38, *KJV‬‬


    there are several more that fill in the rest , John is seeing a spiritual vision , it carries a message of things that God has been showing and foretelling since the beginning through prophets. The way to understand revelation , is to seek the prophets beforehand, and the rest of scripture.

    notice things like this

    and a beautiful crown upon thine head.
    Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom."

    " pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was. And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon:"

  12. #57
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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    If you believe the woman in Rev 12 is Israel at the time of Christ then when did all these things occur?

    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    When did Israel flee to the wilderness for 3.5 years?

    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    When was Israel given two wings of an eagle in the wilderness for 3.5 years?

    Also if you believe the woman Israel and the man child Jesus there is not 2000 years between verse 5 and 6!!!!!

    Birth of Christ

    5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

    2000 year gap????

    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    Verse 6 happens right after verse 5 not some 2000 years later!!!!!!


    Until those who promote Christ as the man child addresses these concerns then that interpretation can not and should not be promoted.

  13. #58
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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    Israel begins as beautiful, and then is pursued by the dragon ...later you see the whore is Jerusalem in her defiled state, riding upon the beast who pursued her beforehand .

    she was taken away into the wilderness on wings of an eagle ...that's from the song of Moses in the law. Israel was carried on Gods wings like an eagle into the wilderness for a time.....

    Jesus said the blood of all the prophets would be accounted to Israel , Jerusalem specifically because they always persecuted the ones who came speaking Gods word. Stones them killed them rejected them ran them out of town...read the. Book of Jeremiah, and the song of Moses, it sheds light on some things in revelation
    Obviously you believe that rev 12 is past, do you see any of it in the future? Are you saying rev 17 is past as well?

    Note I do believe that the woman in Rev 12 and Rev 17 are the same (note Rev 17 says the woman is a city). But in a future state note the woman in Rev 12 comes from heaven and is not the past earthly city.

    Of course Isaiah speaks of the whoredoms of Jerusalem and the Israel people in the past but also prophesize of a future time when she will commit whoredom again this time with the future beast.

    So I am not sure if you just see her whoredoms past but not again in the future.

    This woman is not just tied to a earthly city but an heavenly one as well. Whether you believe Rev 12 or Rev 17 is a future representation, Rev 21 is this same woman but made new.

  14. #59
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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The harpers are the 144,000 redeemed from the earth and now before the throne in heaven.
    No, the harpers play and sing to the 144k who are learning this song from the harpers. The Harpers are in heaven, the 144k are on Earth with Christ.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #60
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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No, the harpers play and sing to the 144k who are learning this song from the harpers. The Harpers are in heaven, the 144k are on Earth with Christ.
    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    So let's say that in chapter 14 the 144,000 are not the ones singing harping ect….

    However in chapter 15 it is the 144,000 evidence by those being killed for not accepting the mark. Looks like they learned the song. Not to mention the scene is in heaven chapter 15 thus chapter 14 is also.

    2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
    3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

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