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Thread: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

  1. #61
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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    So let's say that in chapter 14 the 144,000 are not the ones singing harping ect….

    However in chapter 15 it is the 144,000 evidence by those being killed for not accepting the mark. Looks like they learned the song. Not to mention the scene is in heaven chapter 15 thus chapter 14 is also.

    2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
    3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
    As scripture says, the 144k are learning the song as the harpers are singing it. Naturally we know the 144k will learn the song and are likely to sing it eventually after learning it but they are not mentioned in Rev 15 so we can't assume they are singing it there. Maybe they are still learning the song while others sing.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  2. #62

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Things to consider.

    The man child (singular) of Rev 12:5 was brought forth through, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. V 2 Natural human childbirth. He lived about 33 years and died and was dead three days and three nights.
    The man child (singular) of Isa 66:7 was brought forth before any travail or pain. Consider Acts 2:24 NASB “[fn] (Literally: Whom God raised up) But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the [fn] (Literally: birth pains) agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held [fn] (Literally: by it) in its power.

    I believe both, singular man child, is Jesus born from woman and born from death.

    Consider also: Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

    Who is the I, who is the precious corner stone? When was the stone laid in Zion, the rejected stone, when did it become the head of the corner? Acts 4:9,10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

    whom God raised from the dead, Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;

    God the Father began building, "his," church when he raised Jesus, the Son of the living God from the dead. Consider: Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:6,7 Consider: Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Gal 4:26 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, Heb 12:22

    When will Mt Zion bring forth her children and from whence will they come?

    Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Isa 66:8

    Things to consider.

    The man child (singular) of Rev 12:5 was brought forth through, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. V 2 Natural human childbirth. He lived about 33 years and died and was dead three days and three nights.
    The man child (singular) of Isa 66:7 was brought forth before any travail or pain. Consider Acts 2:24 NASB “[fn] (Literally: Whom God raised up) But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the [fn] (Literally: birth pains) agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held [fn] (Literally: by it) in its power.

    I believe both, singular man child, is Jesus born from woman and born from death.

    Consider also: Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

    Who is the I, who is the precious corner stone? When was the stone laid in Zion, the rejected stone, when did it become the head of the corner? Acts 4:9,10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

    whom God raised from the dead, Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;

    God the Father began building, "his," church when he raised Jesus, the Son of the living God from the dead. Consider: Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:6,7 Consider: Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Gal 4:26 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, Heb 12:22

    When will Mt Zion bring forth her children and from whence will they come?

    Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Isa 66:8

  3. #63

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    If I could edit I would have added at the end.

    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

  4. #64

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    If you believe the woman in Rev 12 is Israel at the time of Christ then when did all these things occur?

    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    When did Israel flee to the wilderness for 3.5 years?

    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    When was Israel given two wings of an eagle in the wilderness for 3.5 years?

    Also if you believe the woman Israel and the man child Jesus there is not 2000 years between verse 5 and 6!!!!!

    Birth of Christ

    5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

    2000 year gap????

    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    Verse 6 happens right after verse 5 not some 2000 years later!!!!!!


    Until those who promote Christ as the man child addresses these concerns then that interpretation can not and should not be promoted.

    honestly I think your intention is argument at this point. And it's unfruitful for both of us, I do my best not to be a part of the arguing for the sake of arguing.

    I've laid out a very solid case for you , and you have let it be known what your case is. It's best for. Me to,let what I've said already along with the scriptures I've referenced speak my case.

    God bless you indeed , no hard feelings arguing isn't good between Christians debate is good , but at a certain point we see where we are and should move on ...


    what do you know about King David brother? Anything insightful?

  5. #65

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    That is what Isaiah asked...….

    IS 66
    6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
    7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

    I believe this phenomena is the dry bones coming to life in EZ 37.



    They have been posted several times but you never bother to look.

    IS 66
    6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
    7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

    You see Israel (144,000) will be born in one day, the man child.

    you are removing that verse from its context. That's not what it says .

    are you honestly not able to grasp that Jesus Christ was taken up to rule in heaven at the throne ?

    and that there is no doctrine for the idea that the 144000 sealed are caught up to the throne...

    the 144000 are not a literal number as most none are in prophecy. They are representative of things. Those are all Israelites each from the twelve tribes , they are those who were saved by faith beforehand , thier who " rested with the fathers" thier sealing , is something ezekeil and Zechariah help understand . But I'm not gonna bother arguing that .

    those are the saints of the Old Testament , who were sealed

    “And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

    And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *9:3-4, 11‬ *KJV‬‬

    its part of Ezekeils vision which begins on earth , then he sees Gods glory departing from the temple on earth ...he sees the son of man ascending in the glory of God , and when it goes up, it takes him up into the new Jerusalem , the same one John sees in the highest place above where they are both taken by the spirit in the visions. He ends up seeing the same thing John does just different parts...one measures the city , the other gets the measurement of the temple , one sees in old times " something as the frame of a city" and John sees the completed beauty of the city...

    many differing details in each . Revelation is a revelation of " past present and future", and it is not chronological , John sees the beginning of a whole new vision on chapter 12. It's not a continuing vision of chronological events .

    “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;”
    **Revelation‬ *1:19‬ *KJV‬‬

    the intent is to show the end, but the things are things he had seen , things that were current and things that were to be. Here's an example

    “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
    **Revelation‬ *1:8‬ *KJV‬‬

    or the beast

    “And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.”
    **Revelation‬ *17:10‬ *KJV‬‬


    see there , only one head of the beast was about a future event, but he saw the beast with all the heads , then gave the understanding of it ....five had fallen, one was current , and only one was future

    it turns out the ten horns then are ten more future kings .....revelation is not what it seems , it is about the future but often we need to see how things I folded , to understand the end....it's past present future....to the end of showing the end and new beginning








    all these visions help grasp the others . Help us come to the ultimate conclusion that Jesus

    Christians in revelation are those who come to God through Christ.

  6. #66

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    “And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.”
    **Matthew‬ *19:2‬ *KJV‬‬

    “When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.”
    **Matthew‬ *8:1‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And as they departed from Jericho, a great multitude followed him.”
    **Matthew‬ *20:29‬ *KJV‬‬

    “But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;”
    **Matthew‬ *12:15‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
    **Matthew‬ *28:18-20‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
    **Matthew‬ *24:14‬ *KJV‬‬

    in revelation , Christians are here

    “After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

    And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

    And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.


    They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
    **Revelation‬ *7:9-17‬ *KJV‬‬

    Christians didn't have the same covenant as through Moses , Moses will judge those bound to the law , the sealed of Israels tribes are those of the Old Testament the saints , remember this is where the covenant finally was converted

    Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

    And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.”
    **Matthew‬ *27:50-54‬ *KJV‬‬


    remember Jesus I am the resurrection and life....

  7. #67

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    “Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.”
    **Luke‬ *10:20‬ *KJV‬‬

    “But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
    **Hebrews‬ *12:22-24‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”
    **Ephesians‬ *2:5-6‬ *KJV‬‬


    the Holy Ghost is Gods spirit , Gods spirit is the spirit of Jesus Christ his son, and he promised to send the same spirit that is in Jesus Christ into believers ...

    “If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

    Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
    **John‬ *14:15-17, 20, 23-26‬ *KJV‬‬


    all the promises of Christianity come from Jesus words in the gospel. The promise of the Holy Ghost , through Christ exalted to the throne after overcoming sin and death for mankind, sending the Holy Spirit to us , that we may wash our robes and be the children of God. Who follow the shepherd


    “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

    I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.”
    **John‬ *10:11, 14, 16, 27-29‬ *KJV‬‬


    all people of the earth can come free of charge through Jesus ....his promises .....his ways that lead us there....

  8. #68

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    "They serve him day and night in his temple"

    “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”
    **1 Corinthians‬ *6:19‬ *KJV‬‬

    “For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.”
    **1 Corinthians‬ *6:20‬ *KJV‬‬


    “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
    **Romans‬ *12:1-2‬ *KJV‬‬


    we do serve God in his temple on earth now, and we are present in the heavens by his word.

  9. #69

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    Things to consider.

    The man child (singular) of Rev 12:5 was brought forth through, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. V 2 Natural human childbirth. He lived about 33 years and died and was dead three days and three nights.
    The man child (singular) of Isa 66:7 was brought forth before any travail or pain. Consider Acts 2:24 NASB “[fn] (Literally: Whom God raised up) But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the [fn] (Literally: birth pains) agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held [fn] (Literally: by it) in its power.

    I believe both, singular man child, is Jesus born from woman and born from death.

    Consider also: Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

    Who is the I, who is the precious corner stone? When was the stone laid in Zion, the rejected stone, when did it become the head of the corner? Acts 4:9,10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

    whom God raised from the dead, Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;

    God the Father began building, "his," church when he raised Jesus, the Son of the living God from the dead. Consider: Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:6,7 Consider: Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Gal 4:26 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, Heb 12:22

    When will Mt Zion bring forth her children and from whence will they come?

    Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Isa 66:8

    Things to consider.

    The man child (singular) of Rev 12:5 was brought forth through, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. V 2 Natural human childbirth. He lived about 33 years and died and was dead three days and three nights.
    The man child (singular) of Isa 66:7 was brought forth before any travail or pain. Consider Acts 2:24 NASB “[fn] (Literally: Whom God raised up) But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the [fn] (Literally: birth pains) agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held [fn] (Literally: by it) in its power.

    I believe both, singular man child, is Jesus born from woman and born from death.

    Consider also: Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

    Who is the I, who is the precious corner stone? When was the stone laid in Zion, the rejected stone, when did it become the head of the corner? Acts 4:9,10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

    whom God raised from the dead, Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;

    God the Father began building, "his," church when he raised Jesus, the Son of the living God from the dead. Consider: Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:6,7 Consider: Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Gal 4:26 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, Heb 12:22

    When will Mt Zion bring forth her children and from whence will they come?

    Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Isa 66:8

    great stuff, may God bless you in abundance of light and life..thanks for the wonderful points and scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    Things to consider.

    The man child (singular) of Rev 12:5 was brought forth through, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. V 2 Natural human childbirth. He lived about 33 years and died and was dead three days and three nights.
    The man child (singular) of Isa 66:7 was brought forth before any travail or pain. Consider Acts 2:24 NASB “[fn] (Literally: Whom God raised up) But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the [fn] (Literally: birth pains) agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held [fn] (Literally: by it) in its power.

    I believe both, singular man child, is Jesus born from woman and born from death.

    Consider also: Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

    Who is the I, who is the precious corner stone? When was the stone laid in Zion, the rejected stone, when did it become the head of the corner? Acts 4:9,10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

    whom God raised from the dead, Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;

    God the Father began building, "his," church when he raised Jesus, the Son of the living God from the dead. Consider: Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:6,7 Consider: Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Gal 4:26 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, Heb 12:22

    When will Mt Zion bring forth her children and from whence will they come?

    Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Isa 66:8

    Things to consider.

    The man child (singular) of Rev 12:5 was brought forth through, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. V 2 Natural human childbirth. He lived about 33 years and died and was dead three days and three nights.
    The man child (singular) of Isa 66:7 was brought forth before any travail or pain. Consider Acts 2:24 NASB “[fn] (Literally: Whom God raised up) But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the [fn] (Literally: birth pains) agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held [fn] (Literally: by it) in its power.

    I believe both, singular man child, is Jesus born from woman and born from death.

    Consider also: Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

    Who is the I, who is the precious corner stone? When was the stone laid in Zion, the rejected stone, when did it become the head of the corner? Acts 4:9,10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

    whom God raised from the dead, Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;

    God the Father began building, "his," church when he raised Jesus, the Son of the living God from the dead. Consider: Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:6,7 Consider: Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Gal 4:26 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, Heb 12:22

    When will Mt Zion bring forth her children and from whence will they come?

    Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Isa 66:8

    great stuff, may God bless you in abundance of light and life..thanks for the wonderful points and scripture

  10. #70

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    The wedding supper is where our transformation occurs. It's the manifestation of people who were previously made one with Christ.
    yes I see your point looking at the wedding supper event ...

    consider this whether it's of good value to you I do not know...


    The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

    Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.


    But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but [U]they which were bidden were not worthy.

    Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

    And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

    Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.”
    **Matthew‬ *22:2-14‬ *KJV‬‬

    ‬‬
    "For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

    And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

    And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

    And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
    **Revelation‬ *19:2-3, 6-10‬ *KJV‬‬


    “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: ...: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
    **John‬ *18:36-37‬ *KJV

    “He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

    He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
    **John‬ *3:31-36‬ *KJV‬‬

    “If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
    **John‬ *3:12-13‬ *KJV‬‬

    “..the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him:

    thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.


    ...I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

    And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

    **Daniel‬ *7:9-10, 13-14‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

    And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.”
    **Revelation‬ *5:6-7, 11-13‬ *KJV‬‬

  11. #71

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    You see above there Jerusalem rejecting God again and again and he kept telling them then

    And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *1:26‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *1:27-28‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.

    And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *2:1-3‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious.

    And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein; And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *2:7, 9-10‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll. And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness. And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.

    You notice in revelation John is told to prophecy to all people....not Israel. After he eats the scroll....

    But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted. Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.

    Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears.

    Then the spirit took me up, and I heard behind me a voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of the Lord from his place. I heard also the noise of the wings of the living creatures that touched one another, and the noise of the wheels over against them, and a noise of a great rushing.”
    **Ezekiel
    ‬ *3:1-4, 7-8, 10, 12-13‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair.

    Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled:

    and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *5:1-2‬ *KJV‬‬


    “Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts.

    Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord God; This is Jerusalem:

    I
    have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her. And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.

    ...Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, am against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations. And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.

    Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord God; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.

    A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.

    . ...Moreover I will make thee waste, and a reproach among the nations that are round about thee, in the sight of all that pass by. So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that are round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes.

    I the Lord have spoken it. When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for their destruction, and which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread: So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the Lord have spoken it.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *5:3-9, 11-17‬ *KJV‬‬

    now consider the first four seals particularly the fourth.

    “And say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord God; Thus saith the Lord God to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places.

    And I will lay the dead carcases of the children of Israel before their idols; and I will scatter your bones round about your altars.

    Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries.

    And they shall know that I am the Lord, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them.

    Thus saith the Lord God; Smite with thine hand, and stamp with thy foot, and say, Alas for all the evil abominations of the house of Israel! for they shall fall by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence. He that is far off shall die of the pestilence; and he that is near shall fall by the sword; and he that remaineth and is besieged shall die by the famine: thus will I accomplish my fury upon them. Then shall ye know that I am the Lord, when their slain men shall be among their idols round about their altars, upon every high hill, in all the tops of the mountains, and under every green tree, and under every thick oak, the place where they did offer sweet savour to all their idols. So will I stretch out my hand upon them, and make the land desolate, yea, more desolate than the wilderness toward Diblath, in all their habitations: and they shall know that I am the Lord.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *6:3, 5, 8, 10-14‬ *KJV‬‬


    if you know the story of Israel, you understand why he got to this point , and also that God told Moses this was coming when he gave the law just as Moses is readying to die ....they would go whoring after other gods and provoke him to anger, and break his covenant and he would carry out these curses which are in the law, written ahead of time as warnings....they didn't believe God would carry out his warnings ....they taught the people lies , worshipped false gods, did evil everywhere they went, then he would turn , they would cry our , he would restore them through a judge by his spirit...they would again follow gods...on and on, but all along he was saying " relent or else, obey me or else , ris these idols from my land or else , teach the truth or else....from the giving of the law forward he taught them the warnings as well.....

  12. #72

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Briefly, regarding "the wedding feast/supper," here's what I believe:

    --Revelation 19:7 pertains to the "BRIDE/WIFE [singular]" (in heaven, at that point in time, and "aorist" the "marriage" has come)

    --Revelation 19:9 [being distinct from the above] pertains to "those having been invited to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER of the Lamb" (i.e. the "guests [plural]"), which is what will have been taking place on the earth throughout the 7-yr tribulation period unfolding on the earth (and which "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth; i.e. the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth]," in "the age [singular] to come" [the MK age])


    IOW, "the BRIDE/WIFE [singular]" is not "the invited guests [plural]" but are distinct (the one is in heaven "with [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION'-with / 'IDENTIFICATION'-with] Him"; the other has not ever lifted off the earth but will still be present there upon His "RETURN" to the earth at the time of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]," aka the "shall sit down [G347]" of Matthew 8:11 and its parallel, and also the Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal; etc)

  13. #73

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    consider this whether it's of good value to you I do not know...


    The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
    I've read your whole post. Just shortened it for space. All good thoughts.

    I think the point is, we're the ones that needed to be made ready. Jesus didn't need to be made ready. The "man child caught up to God's throne" is simply our realization (the revelation) that Jesus is equal to his Father. He always has been.

  14. #74

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    the 144000 are not a literal number as most none are in prophecy. They are representative of things. Those are all Israelites each from the twelve tribes , they are those who were saved by faith beforehand , thier who " rested with the fathers" thier sealing , is something ezekeil and Zechariah help understand . But I'm not gonna bother arguing that .

    those are the saints of the Old Testament , who were sealed

    Did you notice the tribe of Dan is not mentioned?

  15. #75
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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    honestly I think your intention is argument at this point. And it's unfruitful for both of us, I do my best not to be a part of the arguing for the sake of arguing.

    I've laid out a very solid case for you , and you have let it be known what your case is. It's best for. Me to,let what I've said already along with the scriptures I've referenced speak my case.
    I am not arguing rather asking some very pertinent questions in relation to Christ being the man child. The question in themselves are in the same chapter in which the man child reference is contained. They should be easily answered especially when the woman and man child are claimed to be past events. However you have repeatedly avoid the questions rather post lengthy dissertations. If you can't answer these question then you need to reexamine your position.

    If you believe the woman in Rev 12 is Israel at the time of Christ then when did all these things occur?

    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    When did Israel flee to the wilderness for 3.5 years?

    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    When was Israel given two wings of an eagle in the wilderness for 3.5 years?

    Also if you believe the woman Israel and the man child Jesus there is not 2000 years between verse 5 and 6!!!!!

    Birth of Christ

    5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

    2000 year gap????

    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    Verse 6 happens right after verse 5 not some 2000 years later!!!!!!

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