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Thread: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

  1. #121

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Absolutely, exactly as you laid out!

    yes amen , that's somewhat to the point of what I'm saying for instance


    “And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;”
    **Revelation‬ *5:5-6, 9‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
    **Revelation‬ *13:8‬ *KJV‬‬


    as another brother said earlier somewhere here in this thread it's about fulfillment of Gods word . We understand Jesus was born , loved died , rose and was taken up to heaven , about 1950 years ago roughly.....but what we're seeing there in revelation 5 , was written in heaven from the beginning. " let it be done on earth ....as it is done in heaven" let it manifest on earth as it is ordained in heaven"



    “But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.”
    **1 Peter‬ *1:19-21‬ *KJV‬‬


    the for ordination of Christ was written from the beginning, but it was set for a certain time that it would be accomplished and manifest , his birth , was forordained , his death and resurrection, his seating on the throne of Gods right hand in the heavens . It's what I meant earlier saying " many times we're seeing things happening in the heavens , that spill into the earth in the revelation, the effects on earth , by the Kings were seeing of the spiritual , the eternally ordained things, such as Christ being slain, and exalted, offered for sins, such as the foreordination of the son of man , the seed of David would be born in Israel such as


    “But thou, Beth–lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.”
    **Micah‬ *5:2-3‬ *KJV‬‬


    which of course was fulfilled in Christ's birth

    “And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.”
    **Matthew‬ *2:4-6‬ *KJV‬‬



    it's always God promising things first , then later they come to pass , always. This is what I'm saying regarding revelation we're seeing a perpetual heavenly vision covering last present and future , all for the intent of revealing " what is to come"


    which is the new creation to come

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Absolutely, exactly as you laid out!

    yes amen , that's somewhat to the point of what I'm saying for instance


    “And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;”
    **Revelation‬ *5:5-6, 9‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
    **Revelation‬ *13:8‬ *KJV‬‬


    as another brother said earlier somewhere here in this thread it's about fulfillment of Gods word . We understand Jesus was born , loved died , rose and was taken up to heaven , about 1950 years ago roughly.....but what we're seeing there in revelation 5 , was written in heaven from the beginning. " let it be done on earth ....as it is done in heaven" let it manifest on earth as it is ordained in heaven"



    “But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.”
    **1 Peter‬ *1:19-21‬ *KJV‬‬


    the for ordination of Christ was written from the beginning, but it was set for a certain time that it would be accomplished and manifest , his birth , was forordained , his death and resurrection, his seating on the throne of Gods right hand in the heavens . It's what I meant earlier saying " many times we're seeing things happening in the heavens , that spill into the earth in the revelation, the effects on earth , by the Kings were seeing of the spiritual , the eternally ordained things, such as Christ being slain, and exalted, offered for sins, such as the foreordination of the son of man , the seed of David would be born in Israel such as


    “But thou, Beth–lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.”
    **Micah‬ *5:2-3‬ *KJV‬‬


    which of course was fulfilled in Christ's birth

    “And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.”
    **Matthew‬ *2:4-6‬ *KJV‬‬



    it's always God promising things first , then later they come to pass , always. This is what I'm saying regarding revelation we're seeing a perpetual heavenly vision covering last present and future , all for the intent of revealing " what is to come"


    which is the new creation to come

  2. #122

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    In verse 3 below, it says, for the time "is" at hand. It does not say, "will be at hand in 2000 years from now".

    Revelation 1:3
    Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

    yes and it's curious



    ““And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
    **Mark‬ *1:15‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
    **Revelation‬ *12:5‬ *KJV‬‬


    what happened in heaven when he was caught up to the throne?

    “And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

    And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;”
    **Revelation‬ *5:3, 5-6, 8-9‬ *KJV‬‬

    when was this accomplished ?

    “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
    **Matthew‬ *20:28‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”
    **Mark‬ *14:62‬ *KJV‬‬


    “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”
    **John‬ *20:17‬ *KJV‬‬


    ( tha lamb appears in heaven as slain having " prevailed"

    “And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.”
    **Revelation‬ *5:11-13‬ *KJV‬‬










    “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”
    **Matthew‬ *28:18‬ *KJV‬‬

  3. #123

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    At hand can be 2000 years. Rev 19 hasn't yet happened, nor any of Rev 20. The two prophets weren't publicly killed and then resurrected and raptured up in the sight of everyone either, Rev 11.

    This only proves "at hand" is not from a humans point of view.
    The point I was portraying is, Revelation also applies to the time at hand at Johns time, as well as in future events.

  4. #124

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”
    **John‬ *20:17‬ *KJV‬‬
    I believe Jesus did this ^ (what He said, in that verse, to MM) on His Resurrection Day/ON Firstfruit, fulfilling Leviticus 23:10-12 (before later that same evening showing up in the context of Luke 24:36,39+ ["handle me"]), and not the one in the "40-day later" Acts 1 VISIBLE ascension (which is how He will "return" [to the earth] or "shall so come in like manner AS YE HAVE SEEN Him go into heaven" v.11).

  5. #125

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I believe Jesus did this ^ (what He said, in that verse, to MM) on His Resurrection Day/ON Firstfruit, fulfilling Leviticus 23:10-12 (before later that same evening showing up in the context of Luke 24:36,39+ ["handle me"]), and not the one in the "40-day later" Acts 1 VISIBLE ascension (which is how He will "return" [to the earth] or "shall so come in like manner AS YE HAVE SEEN Him go into heaven" v.11).


    yes that's the point Mary sees him at first, " don't touch me for I haven't yet went to God, ...go tell my brothers I'm ascending to God."

    I'm saying this happened on earth when he rose from the dead. then this ( ordained from the foundation) but manifest in the heavens here , after the lamb appears slain and receives the kingdom of heaven and earth . Notice how as soon as he takes the book out of Gods hand , all the heavenly beings , and then every creature upon earth begin praising him speaking " by his blood he has purchased men for God , he is worthy because he did this"

    that is the heavens recognizing what was happening on earth , revelation is here

    “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”
    **Revelation‬ *4:1-2‬ *KJV‬‬

    John is seeing from heavens vantage point in the vision, he's taken up into heaven to see things hereafter . In the heavens....and those events in the heavens , then affect or ar affected by , events on earth , such as in this case , Jesus was telling his disciple consistently " I will be crucified , I will be raised up the third day , I will be seated at my fathers right hand , and one day I will return in glory with all my angels with me....

    revelation is about the unseen things pertaining to the kingdom. Of God, a furthering of the kingdom of God understanding in the gospel , the spiritual kingdom taught by Jesus ...it ends with the coming of the kingdom, the descent ion of the heavenly Jerusalem from heaven the city of God ....about the overall unfolding of the war and conflict in heaven , that spilled into the earth with satans rebellion, and mans obedience to sin, rather than seeking repentance.

    look around at the conduct of humans in the earth with a worldly view , there are nations across the Middle East in turmoil places like Syria, and Iraq,* have barely a building left standing, the only complete city on Syria left , is Damascus .

    there have been mass famines covering entire nations, even today there are people , many actually who literally starve because of famine in thier nation. We see those commercials with people starving, but it never occurs to look and see just how widespread an issue both famine and drought mass starvations, mass genocides, slaveries, persecutions repeatedly ....recently I wondered about current day persecution, it's getting a little " insulting" to be Christian in the u.s. ....maybe someone looks at us funny , or maybe someone laughs at us.....

    we're nearsighted , but Gods word covers the world , other places like North Korea , have concentration camps for Christians where many are worked 18 hour days , and also rented to China as mass cheap slave labor where they work , for two meals a day. China is now currently rising very fast in anti Christian nationalism. Recently thier president xi, ordered images of Jesus destroyed , churches dispanded places like Egypt , Christians are bombed relatively often at worship services sometime coordinated as many as 4 in one day have happened .

    you have beheadings of Christians , still in practice by radical Islamists just a few years ago Isis videotaped 21 men being beheaded because they were Christian in faith . Doing it in the name of thier false god . Who's name is an offense and unclean. Mass earthquakes , several unexpected natural disasters, increasing of violent weather all over the world, over the past hundred years...this is just now


    but think back to the crusades both the Christian , and the Muslim crusades , think historically back to how the world has been in chaos in the matters of the church of the firstborn that is written in heaven.

    what I'm saying is think two fold with revelation because we have two covenants represented within the book, and the end Is the fulfilling of long since promises in less light and revelation I sort of think it's good just myself to think of revelation in this light

    “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.”
    **Isaiah‬ *65:17-18‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
    **Revelation‬ *21:1-5‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”
    **Revelation‬ *3:12‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

    I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

    I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.”
    **Isaiah‬ *42:1, 4, 6-10‬ *KJV‬‬


    “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
    **2 Peter‬ *3:10, 13‬ *KJV‬‬


    I believe what's meant by " I will shew you things to come" should be considered knowing there is the kingdom of heaven , where Jesus is seated now , waiting until the earth is laid low and the enemies of darkness become "his footstool" there is a heaven , it just isn't visible of physical when our flesh is taken away we will see , until then we must walk by faith in what he said. And also there is the earthly view of things ,revelation is a very deeply layered book . The Two recognized covenants of God show us really the depth of the book. And the end of the old coming to pass with all of the wrath upon the earth , while the new was advancing already , but in the end will come forth when these things pass away.



















    we see wars, pestelence, famines , earthquakes, events , disasters and things happening from heaven , and then we see the effects later spread to the whole earth .








    Jesus then reappears 8 days later and says to Thomas

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I believe Jesus did this ^ (what He said, in that verse, to MM) on His Resurrection Day/ON Firstfruit, fulfilling Leviticus 23:10-12 (before later that same evening showing up in the context of Luke 24:36,39+ ["handle me"]), and not the one in the "40-day later" Acts 1 VISIBLE ascension (which is how He will "return" [to the earth] or "shall so come in like manner AS YE HAVE SEEN Him go into heaven" v.11).


    yes that's the point Mary sees him at first, " don't touch me for I haven't yet went to God, ...go tell my brothers I'm ascending to God."

    I'm saying this happened on earth when he rose from the dead. then this ( ordained from the foundation) but manifest in the heavens here , after the lamb appears slain and receives the kingdom of heaven and earth . Notice how as soon as he takes the book out of Gods hand , all the heavenly beings , and then every creature upon earth begin praising him speaking " by his blood he has purchased men for God , he is worthy because he did this"

    that is the heavens recognizing what was happening on earth , revelation is here

    “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”
    **Revelation‬ *4:1-2‬ *KJV‬‬

    John is seeing from heavens vantage point in the vision, he's taken up into heaven to see things hereafter . In the heavens....and those events in the heavens , then affect or ar affected by , events on earth , such as in this case , Jesus was telling his disciple consistently " I will be crucified , I will be raised up the third day , I will be seated at my fathers right hand , and one day I will return in glory with all my angels with me....

    revelation is about the unseen things pertaining to the kingdom. Of God, a furthering of the kingdom of God understanding in the gospel , the spiritual kingdom taught by Jesus ...it ends with the coming of the kingdom, the descent ion of the heavenly Jerusalem from heaven the city of God ....about the overall unfolding of the war and conflict in heaven , that spilled into the earth with satans rebellion, and mans obedience to sin, rather than seeking repentance.

    look around at the conduct of humans in the earth with a worldly view , there are nations across the Middle East in turmoil places like Syria, and Iraq,* have barely a building left standing, the only complete city on Syria left , is Damascus .

    there have been mass famines covering entire nations, even today there are people , many actually who literally starve because of famine in thier nation. We see those commercials with people starving, but it never occurs to look and see just how widespread an issue both famine and drought mass starvations, mass genocides, slaveries, persecutions repeatedly ....recently I wondered about current day persecution, it's getting a little " insulting" to be Christian in the u.s. ....maybe someone looks at us funny , or maybe someone laughs at us.....

    we're nearsighted , but Gods word covers the world , other places like North Korea , have concentration camps for Christians where many are worked 18 hour days , and also rented to China as mass cheap slave labor where they work , for two meals a day. China is now currently rising very fast in anti Christian nationalism. Recently thier president xi, ordered images of Jesus destroyed , churches dispanded places like Egypt , Christians are bombed relatively often at worship services sometime coordinated as many as 4 in one day have happened .

    you have beheadings of Christians , still in practice by radical Islamists just a few years ago Isis videotaped 21 men being beheaded because they were Christian in faith . Doing it in the name of thier false god . Who's name is an offense and unclean. Mass earthquakes , several unexpected natural disasters, increasing of violent weather all over the world, over the past hundred years...this is just now


    but think back to the crusades both the Christian , and the Muslim crusades , think historically back to how the world has been in chaos in the matters of the church of the firstborn that is written in heaven.

    what I'm saying is think two fold with revelation because we have two covenants represented within the book, and the end Is the fulfilling of long since promises in less light and revelation I sort of think it's good just myself to think of revelation in this light

    “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.”
    **Isaiah‬ *65:17-18‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
    **Revelation‬ *21:1-5‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”
    **Revelation‬ *3:12‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

    I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

    I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.”
    **Isaiah‬ *42:1, 4, 6-10‬ *KJV‬‬


    “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
    **2 Peter‬ *3:10, 13‬ *KJV‬‬


    I believe what's meant by " I will shew you things to come" should be considered knowing there is the kingdom of heaven , where Jesus is seated now , waiting until the earth is laid low and the enemies of darkness become "his footstool" there is a heaven , it just isn't visible of physical when our flesh is taken away we will see , until then we must walk by faith in what he said. And also there is the earthly view of things ,revelation is a very deeply layered book . The Two recognized covenants of God show us really the depth of the book. And the end of the old coming to pass with all of the wrath upon the earth , while the new was advancing already , but in the end will come forth when these things pass away.



















    we see wars, pestelence, famines , earthquakes, events , disasters and things happening from heaven , and then we see the effects later spread to the whole earth .








    Jesus then reappears 8 days later and says to Thomas

  6. #126

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    The point I was portraying is, Revelation also applies to the time at hand at Johns time, as well as in future events.

    write what you have seen , what is, and what will be" remember Johns story begins when Jesus ministry begins. He had seen and learned so much from Jesus , in fact the gospel of sort of leads into revelation ...

    When he began preaching " the time is fulfilled , repent for the kingdom of God is at hand, believe the gospel" John began to see

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    The point I was portraying is, Revelation also applies to the time at hand at Johns time, as well as in future events.

    write what you have seen , what is, and what will be" remember Johns story begins when Jesus ministry begins. He had seen and learned so much from Jesus , in fact the gospel of sort of leads into revelation ...

    When he began preaching " the time is fulfilled , repent for the kingdom of God is at hand, believe the gospel" John began to see

  7. #127

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    yes that's the point Mary sees him at first, " don't touch me for I haven't yet went to God, ...go tell my brothers I'm ascending to God."

    I'm saying this happened on earth when he rose from the dead.

    […]

    Jesus then reappears 8 days later and says to Thomas
    I understand your point about Thomas... but I still see this the way I had said, and here are some things to consider...

    "Jesus saith unto her [MM], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend [active] unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17

    A few things to note:

    --"He appeared [G5316] FIRST unto MM" Mark 16:9

    --He tells her [the words in the aforementioned verse] "SAY UNTO THEM" [and I believe He meant what He said, that He was going to do that this very day--And why tell HER to "say unto them" if He would be in their presence later that same day (Lk24:36-41) and could just as easily have "told them" Himself (why assign this to MM?? as if saying 'I'm too lazy to tell them Myself when I see them later today!' ??), or better, simply SHOWN them Himself IF "resurrection" were the sole thing being spoken of here. No. He MEANT (and DID) "ASCEND [ACTIVE] TO MY FATHER"... and since He (later that very day) said to them "handle Me," then we know He had (by then) already accomplished this (thus fulfilling Lev23:10-12 ON FIRSTFRUIT/His Resurrection Day... literally)]

    --"the WORDS of them [MM, Joanna, Mary the mother of James] appeared [G5316] to them as folly/idle words/idle tales/nonsense and they did not believe [/they disbelieved] them." Luke 24:10-11

    --they did not believe the report of the "two [Emmaus-road-walkers]" either, who had eaten with Him when He "took bread" (when He then "vanished out of their sight" Luke 24:29-31 [v.33 says, "they rose up that same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered-together [sunathroizo], and them that were with them"]--which "two" also "told what things were done in the way, and how He was known of them in the breaking of bread." v.35)

    --Jesus later ("afterward [[I]can mean "lastly/finally/last of all"]) "...He appeared [G5319] unto the eleven... and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them WHICH HAD SEEN HIM after He was risen." Mark 16:14

    --Jesus' [40-day-]LATER (VISIBLE) "ascension" always seems to be expressed as "passive" (taken up, etc), whereas the earlier one [ON FF] always in the "active"

    --His VISIBLE ascension (40-d later, Acts 1) is said to be how He will "so come in like manner AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM going [G4198 - poreuomenon - traveling/journeying] into heaven" (reflective of how He will "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19 etc "every eye shall see Him," that is, those present on the earth at that time [which could also involve "resurrected" people, like Dan12:13 "thou shalt stand in thy lot at the end of the days [the end of the days of that context, vv.5-7,1]"]--note: Daniel [OT saint] was promised "resurrection," not "rapture" [which 'rapture' pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN)])

    --all of this, in my view, is a picture/pattern of something greater (which I won't go into here)...

  8. #128

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I understand your point about Thomas... but I still see this the way I had said, and here are some things to consider...

    "Jesus saith unto her [MM], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend [active] unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17

    A few things to note:

    --"He appeared [G5316] FIRST unto MM" Mark 16:9

    --He tells her [the words in the aforementioned verse] "SAY UNTO THEM" [and I believe He meant what He said, that He was going to do that this very day--And why tell HER to "say unto them" if He would be in their presence later that same day (Lk24:36-41) and could just as easily have "told them" Himself (why assign this to MM?? as if saying 'I'm too lazy to tell them Myself when I see them later today!' ??), or better, simply SHOWN them Himself IF "resurrection" were the sole thing being spoken of here. No. He MEANT (and DID) "ASCEND [ACTIVE] TO MY FATHER"... and since He (later that very day) said to them "handle Me," then we know He had (by then) already accomplished this (thus fulfilling Lev23:10-12 ON FIRSTFRUIT/His Resurrection Day... literally)]

    --"the WORDS of them [MM, Joanna, Mary the mother of James] appeared [G5316] to them as folly/idle words/idle tales/nonsense and they did not believe [/they disbelieved] them." Luke 24:10-11

    --they did not believe the report of the "two [Emmaus-road-walkers]" either, who had eaten with Him when He "took bread" (when He then "vanished out of their sight" Luke 24:29-31 [v.33 says, "they rose up that same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered-together [sunathroizo], and them that were with them"]--which "two" also "told what things were done in the way, and how He was known of them in the breaking of bread." v.35)

    --Jesus later ("afterward [[I]can mean "lastly/finally/last of all"]) "...He appeared [G5319] unto the eleven... and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them WHICH HAD SEEN HIM after He was risen." Mark 16:14

    --Jesus' [40-day-]LATER (VISIBLE) "ascension" always seems to be expressed as "passive" (taken up, etc), whereas the earlier one [ON FF] always in the "active"

    --His VISIBLE ascension (40-d later, Acts 1) is said to be how He will "so come in like manner AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM going [G4198 - poreuomenon - traveling/journeying] into heaven" (reflective of how He will "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19 etc "every eye shall see Him," that is, those present on the earth at that time [which could also involve "resurrected" people, like Dan12:13 "thou shalt stand in thy lot at the end of the days [the end of the days of that context, vv.5-7,1]"]--note: Daniel [OT saint] was promised "resurrection," not "rapture" [which 'rapture' pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN)])

    --all of this, in my view, is a picture/pattern of something greater (which I won't go into here)...

    Again. Remember the eight days ?

    “And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb. And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;”
    **Luke‬ *2:21-22‬ *KJV‬‬


    what I'm saying is this , Mary saw him before the 8 days required. So he tells her " do not touch me for I have yet " been presented to the lord" of that makes any sense to,you.....but when he appears to the disciples he had been presented to the lord because the eight days had passed

    “And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.”
    **John‬ *20:26-27‬ *KJV‬‬


    Do you understand what I mean better?

    between those eight days , this happened in heaven remember he told Mary don't touch me because I have t yet ascended to the father. So after math saw him on earth ,

    “And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.”
    **Revelation‬ *5:6-9, 13‬ *KJV‬‬


    so then he appears to the disciples there and then this shows that revelation 5 had been accomplished . Notice how when he appears as slain , he takes the " book" from Gods hand , and instantly both the heavens and the earth begin to worship the lamb along with God on the throne. So Jesus says

    “Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

    And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
    **Matthew‬ *28:10, 18-20‬ *KJV‬‬


    sometimes we forget ,Mayen Jesus was resurrected he wasn't just hanging out with the disciples , there were fourty days between his resurrection, and when he was taken up to the throne to be seated . After he saw Mary he is taken into the heavens , after he is slain in order to fulfill the words of God that said these things would come to pass, then he returns periodically to his disciples ....telling them things after the eight days required for purification regarding circumcision , this of course has nothing to do with circumcisions the foreskin but of purification of the flesh .njesus flesh had carried our sin , so the eight days is required for purification .


    the things in revelation are things in the heavens , things on the earth were happening also , heaven and earth are simultaneous things are happening right now in heaven , and those things are being manifest on earth .

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I understand your point about Thomas... but I still see this the way I had said, and here are some things to consider...

    "Jesus saith unto her [MM], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend [active] unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17

    A few things to note:

    --"He appeared [G5316] FIRST unto MM" Mark 16:9

    --He tells her [the words in the aforementioned verse] "SAY UNTO THEM" [and I believe He meant what He said, that He was going to do that this very day--And why tell HER to "say unto them" if He would be in their presence later that same day (Lk24:36-41) and could just as easily have "told them" Himself (why assign this to MM?? as if saying 'I'm too lazy to tell them Myself when I see them later today!' ??), or better, simply SHOWN them Himself IF "resurrection" were the sole thing being spoken of here. No. He MEANT (and DID) "ASCEND [ACTIVE] TO MY FATHER"... and since He (later that very day) said to them "handle Me," then we know He had (by then) already accomplished this (thus fulfilling Lev23:10-12 ON FIRSTFRUIT/His Resurrection Day... literally)]

    --"the WORDS of them [MM, Joanna, Mary the mother of James] appeared [G5316] to them as folly/idle words/idle tales/nonsense and they did not believe [/they disbelieved] them." Luke 24:10-11

    --they did not believe the report of the "two [Emmaus-road-walkers]" either, who had eaten with Him when He "took bread" (when He then "vanished out of their sight" Luke 24:29-31 [v.33 says, "they rose up that same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered-together [sunathroizo], and them that were with them"]--which "two" also "told what things were done in the way, and how He was known of them in the breaking of bread." v.35)

    --Jesus later ("afterward [[I]can mean "lastly/finally/last of all"]) "...He appeared [G5319] unto the eleven... and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them WHICH HAD SEEN HIM after He was risen." Mark 16:14

    --Jesus' [40-day-]LATER (VISIBLE) "ascension" always seems to be expressed as "passive" (taken up, etc), whereas the earlier one [ON FF] always in the "active"

    --His VISIBLE ascension (40-d later, Acts 1) is said to be how He will "so come in like manner AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM going [G4198 - poreuomenon - traveling/journeying] into heaven" (reflective of how He will "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19 etc "every eye shall see Him," that is, those present on the earth at that time [which could also involve "resurrected" people, like Dan12:13 "thou shalt stand in thy lot at the end of the days [the end of the days of that context, vv.5-7,1]"]--note: Daniel [OT saint] was promised "resurrection," not "rapture" [which 'rapture' pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN)])

    --all of this, in my view, is a picture/pattern of something greater (which I won't go into here)...

    Again. Remember the eight days ?

    “And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb. And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;”
    **Luke‬ *2:21-22‬ *KJV‬‬


    what I'm saying is this , Mary saw him before the 8 days required. So he tells her " do not touch me for I have yet " been presented to the lord" of that makes any sense to,you.....but when he appears to the disciples he had been presented to the lord because the eight days had passed

    “And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.”
    **John‬ *20:26-27‬ *KJV‬‬


    Do you understand what I mean better?

    between those eight days , this happened in heaven remember he told Mary don't touch me because I have t yet ascended to the father. So after math saw him on earth ,

    “And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.”
    **Revelation‬ *5:6-9, 13‬ *KJV‬‬


    so then he appears to the disciples there and then this shows that revelation 5 had been accomplished . Notice how when he appears as slain , he takes the " book" from Gods hand , and instantly both the heavens and the earth begin to worship the lamb along with God on the throne. So Jesus says

    “Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

    And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
    **Matthew‬ *28:10, 18-20‬ *KJV‬‬


    sometimes we forget ,Mayen Jesus was resurrected he wasn't just hanging out with the disciples , there were fourty days between his resurrection, and when he was taken up to the throne to be seated . After he saw Mary he is taken into the heavens , after he is slain in order to fulfill the words of God that said these things would come to pass, then he returns periodically to his disciples ....telling them things after the eight days required for purification regarding circumcision , this of course has nothing to do with circumcisions the foreskin but of purification of the flesh .njesus flesh had carried our sin , so the eight days is required for purification .


    the things in revelation are things in the heavens , things on the earth were happening also , heaven and earth are simultaneous things are happening right now in heaven , and those things are being manifest on earth .

  9. #129

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Consider

    “The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

    ...And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
    **Acts‬ *1:1-3, 9-11‬ *KJV‬‬


    "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,"


    “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: ( see psalms 2)

    and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
    **Revelation‬ *12:5‬ *KJV‬‬


    "shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

    “And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LORDS.”
    **Revelation‬ *19:10-16‬ *KJV


    think about this

    “Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
    **Acts‬ *2:30, 32-36‬ *KJV‬‬


    Christ is taken up to be seated on the throne at Gods right hand , UNTIL his enemies be made his footstool" then he will return as King and usher in the new and eternal things .


    “For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:“.......So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
    **Hebrews‬ *9:24, 28‬ *KJV‬‬


    the Old Testament people were awaiting Christ's coming also , they thought he was going to deliver them into an earthly kingdo, , one many still wait for , yet

    “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
    **2 Peter‬ *3:10‬ *KJV‬‬


    “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
    **2 Peter‬ *3:13‬ *KJV‬‬


    we too are waiting for his coming, but we have been given the true eternal promises which will come forth the new heavens and new earth , the new Jerusalem which is in heaven and comes forth when he does...it's been the promise for a long long time, Israel was blinded by God intentionally , so they continued looking for a warlord who was going to,overthrow romes dominion and give it to Israel in this world they were looking for something eternal , but this world is condemned it will surely be destroyed , surely be laid waste , and surely our kingdom is not from hence, not of this world ......it exists now in the indpseen realms , and will come forth with the return of the King.

    in Paul's wisdom

    “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

    For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.”
    **Colossians‬ *3:1-4‬ *KJV‬‬

  10. #130

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Very simply, here's what I'm pointing out:

    1) John 20:17 [to MM] "Touch [G680 - haptou] me not...,"


    then later that same day,

    2) Luke 24:39 [to all of them] "Touch [G5584 - pselaphesate - 'probably from G5567 psallo and haphao (to handle)'] me and see..."

    [so I'm saying He must have "ascend[-ed] [ACTIVE] to My Father" BEFORE THIS--->"later-that-same-evening" encounter<---l, thus fulfilling Leviticus 23:10-12 ON that very day of FIRSTFRUIT (and Paul's epistles elaborate on this very thing, in many places)]


    […<insert 8 days here>...]


    ...then eight days later,

    3) John 20:27 [to Thomas only] "put [it] [G906 - bale]..."

  11. #131

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    Consider

    “The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

    ...And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
    **Acts‬ *1:1-3, 9-11‬ *KJV‬‬


    "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,"


    “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: ( see psalms 2)

    and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
    **Revelation‬ *12:5‬ *KJV‬‬


    "shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

    “And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LORDS.”
    **Revelation‬ *19:10-16‬ *KJV


    think about this

    “Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
    **Acts‬ *2:30, 32-36‬ *KJV‬‬


    Christ is taken up to be seated on the throne at Gods right hand , UNTIL his enemies be made his footstool" then he will return as King and usher in the new and eternal things .


    “For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:“.......So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
    **Hebrews‬ *9:24, 28‬ *KJV‬‬


    the Old Testament people were awaiting Christ's coming also , they thought he was going to deliver them into an earthly kingdo, , one many still wait for , yet

    “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
    **2 Peter‬ *3:10‬ *KJV‬‬


    “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
    **2 Peter‬ *3:13‬ *KJV‬‬


    we too are waiting for his coming, but we have been given the true eternal promises which will come forth the new heavens and new earth , the new Jerusalem which is in heaven and comes forth when he does...it's been the promise for a long long time, Israel was blinded by God intentionally , so they continued looking for a warlord who was going to,overthrow romes dominion and give it to Israel in this world they were looking for something eternal , but this world is condemned it will surely be destroyed , surely be laid waste , and surely our kingdom is not from hence, not of this world ......it exists now in the indpseen realms , and will come forth with the return of the King.

    in Paul's wisdom

    “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

    For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.”
    **Colossians‬ *3:1-4‬ *KJV‬‬
    I guess I am going to run down a rabbit hole with this, but I have never given too much thought about his transformation before he met with the disciples 8 days later, but where would he have to ascend in order to reach heavens door? I don't really know that God's heaven has any boundary's. I am sure it's all around us. Only that we can't see it. I have always believed that God is everywhere and I don't know that he would have to go anywhere to get there. It would take nothing for God to make heaven invisible to mankind.

    I guess what I'm saying is, I wonder what he really meant when he told Mary that? Is the power of God so limited that it could not have reached to where Jesus was? I sort of think it was a timing issue rather than needing to go somewhere to be transitioned.

    But I will say I am intrigued by this discussion.

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