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Thread: Upon This Rock?

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    Upon This Rock?

    When Jesus made the statement that upon this rock He would build His church...what do you think was meant by that?
    In my view that Rock was the statement of who Jesus is that Peter made...and not Peter Himself.

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    Re: Upon This Rock?

    please excuse the type-O...the word "ego" should read "who"

    [Mod note: I fixed it for you. - jayne]

  3. #3

    Re: Upon This Rock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    When Jesus made the statement that upon this rock He would build His church...what do you think was meant by that?
    In my view that Rock was the statement Of ego Jesus is that Peter made...and not Peter Himself.
    I was taught Jesus was using a play in words with the word rock. Peter’s name means rock, but Jesus used a different form of the word rock to describe not what but who the rock was which is Jesus. Peter was the smaller rock but THE rock is Christ.

    That is how I learned it, maybe other people will have more insight.

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    Re: Upon This Rock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    When Jesus made the statement that upon this rock He would build His church...what do you think was meant by that?
    In my view that Rock was the statement of who Jesus is that Peter made...and not Peter Himself.
    I'm preaching about this right now... I'll send you my notes
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  5. #5

    Re: Upon This Rock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    When Jesus made the statement that upon this rock He would build His church...what do you think was meant by that?
    In my view that Rock was the statement of who Jesus is that Peter made...and not Peter Himself.
    Peter's response was, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

    The "rock" is the confession of faith that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. This is the basis of the foundation of the church of the new grace covenant church which Jesus established and gave his life for.

    Notice all the elements in the few words Peter spoke:
    1) Confession of faith was made.
    2) Believing that Jesus is the Christ or Savior of our soul.
    3) Believing that Jesus is the Son of God.
    4) Believing that the God we serve is a living God.

    Not only is it the "rock" but also the "door" to the kingdom of heaven. You cannot enter into heaven unless you confess and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.

    Related scriptures:
    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Mark 16:16
    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Romans 10:9
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Matthew 16
    13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
    14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
    15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

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    Re: Upon This Rock?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Peter's response was, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

    The "rock" is the confession of faith that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. This is the basis of the foundation of the church of the new grace covenant church which Jesus established and gave his life for.

    Notice all the elements in the few words Peter spoke:
    1) Confession of faith was made.
    2) Believing that Jesus is the Christ or Savior of our soul.
    3) Believing that Jesus is the Son of God.
    4) Believing that the God we serve is a living God.

    Not only is it the "rock" but also the "door" to the kingdom of heaven. You cannot enter into heaven unless you confess and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.

    Related scriptures:
    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Mark 16:16
    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Romans 10:9
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Matthew 16
    13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
    14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
    15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    There are some errors in your post above I'm afraid, I'll point them out for you.

    Peter's response was, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

    The "rock" is the confession of faith that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. This is the basis of the foundation of the church of the new grace covenant church which Jesus established and gave his life for.

    Notice all the elements in the few words Peter spoke:
    1) Confession of faith was made.
    2) Believing that Jesus is the Christ or Savior of our soul.
    3) Believing that Jesus is the Son of God.
    4) Believing that the God we serve is a living God.
    The response from Peter was on the question the Lord asked in v. 13 « Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? » on that Peter answered in v. 15 « ... and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God ». This revelation was not from man, but from the Father who is in heaven. So not like the ones in v. 14.

    V. 17 — 20 is a separate peace:

    e | 17, Divine revelation
    __f | 18-, The foundation itself. Peter's confession
    __f | -18, 19, The foundation. To built on
    e | 20, Divine injuction

    On the Divine revelation follows the Divine injunction « Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ ».

    So your basing on this particular Scripture things like: this is the confession of faith that Jesus is the Christ, believing that Jesus is the Christ or Savior of our soul, believing that Jesus is the Son of God, that it is the foundation of the church of the new grace covenant church, is not only not Scriptural (the new grace covenant is nowhere mentioned in Scripture), but also are you laying things in, which were only later revealed.

    Then you say:

    Not only is it the "rock" but also the "door" to the kingdom of heaven. You cannot enter into heaven unless you confess and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.
    This is also not Scriptural, the Kingdom of Heaven is not in heaven but on earth. This is clear from Mat. 3:2 « And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven had drawn nigh ». As you can see there is no mention at all of justification by faith, all that is asked is « repent ». In Greek the word « metanoeo » is used which means « to change one's mind », when « metanoeo » is used, the change is always in a positive way. This is clear from Acts 2:38 « Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit ». This gift of the Holy Spirit was promised to Israel in the O.T., Joel 2:28 says « And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions ». That this is only promised to the Jews is clear from v. 1:2 « Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land ... ».

    That later in the Acts starting with Cornelius (± in the year 40 so 10 years after the ascension) the holy spirit fell on to the Gentiles (so not before that) is also prophesied in the O.T. as Rom. 10:19 says « But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish people I will anger you ». And angry the Jews were as Acts 10:45 tells us « And they of the circumcision (Jews or Israelite) which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost ». See also Acts 11:1 — 18.

    But in Matthew is nowhere taught that Jesus was raised from the dead, in fact his disciples didn't believe it Mat. 16:21 — 23. Only in Mat. 28 it was made know He resurrected and many had a hard time believing it, the Jews even thought they stole His body.

    That the Lord is the Rock is obvious, He does not build a church on a person. Much less on one person. That would shift the salvation to the place that is forever unsuitable, inadequate and powerless.

    Aristarkos

    **Structure from the Companion Bible

  7. #7

    Re: Upon This Rock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    There are some errors in your post above I'm afraid, I'll point them out for you.

    The response from Peter was on the question the Lord asked in v. 13 « Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? » on that Peter answered in v. 15 « ... and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God ». This revelation was not from man, but from the Father who is in heaven. So not like the ones in v. 14.

    V. 17 — 20 is a separate peace:

    e | 17, Divine revelation
    __f | 18-, The foundation itself. Peter's confession
    __f | -18, 19, The foundation. To built on
    e | 20, Divine injuction

    On the Divine revelation follows the Divine injunction « Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ ».

    So your basing on this particular Scripture things like: this is the confession of faith that Jesus is the Christ, believing that Jesus is the Christ or Savior of our soul, believing that Jesus is the Son of God, that it is the foundation of the church of the new grace covenant church, is not only not Scriptural (the new grace covenant is nowhere mentioned in Scripture), but also are you laying things in, which were only later revealed.

    Then you say:



    This is also not Scriptural, the Kingdom of Heaven is not in heaven but on earth. This is clear from Mat. 3:2 « And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven had drawn nigh ». As you can see there is no mention at all of justification by faith, all that is asked is « repent ». In Greek the word « metanoeo » is used which means « to change one's mind », when « metanoeo » is used, the change is always in a positive way. This is clear from Acts 2:38 « Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit ». This gift of the Holy Spirit was promised to Israel in the O.T., Joel 2:28 says « And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions ». That this is only promised to the Jews is clear from v. 1:2 « Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land ... ».

    That later in the Acts starting with Cornelius (± in the year 40 so 10 years after the ascension) the holy spirit fell on to the Gentiles (so not before that) is also prophesied in the O.T. as Rom. 10:19 says « But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish people I will anger you ». And angry the Jews were as Acts 10:45 tells us « And they of the circumcision (Jews or Israelite) which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost ». See also Acts 11:1 — 18.

    But in Matthew is nowhere taught that Jesus was raised from the dead, in fact his disciples didn't believe it Mat. 16:21 — 23. Only in Mat. 28 it was made know He resurrected and many had a hard time believing it, the Jews even thought they stole His body.

    That the Lord is the Rock is obvious, He does not build a church on a person. Much less on one person. That would shift the salvation to the place that is forever unsuitable, inadequate and powerless.

    Aristarkos

    **Structure from the Companion Bible
    I agree with you on many of your points, but not all. I think you are basically just splitting hairs with your response. For most of your response and claim that my post has errors has more to do with the related scriptures I listed. Of which have more to do with the overall plan of salvation, which I did not want to ignore. And I listed them as "related".

    But I do agree, I should have included Jesus's statement which he said, "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

    But the topic of discussion of the meaning of what Jesus meant by "rock" was not so much about the statement that Jesus put forth in his question, "Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?"

    It had more to do with what was Peter's answer to Jesus's question. If you will notice, Jesus then immediately then responded when Peter answered, regarding the rock, "that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church". And all the elements in the few words Peter spoke are in line with my response (listed below at the bottom in bold):


    But it sounds like you are saying that in the topic of the passage, there is no mention at all of justification by faith?
    My friend, it's all wrapped up in faith:
    * From the point where it is was mentioned that God revealed it to him. It was revealed by God to Peter, and Peter in faith believed.
    * Are or you implying that Peter's confessed that the son of man was the son of the living God was not a demonstration of faith? Or are you implying that he confessed, but did not have faith in believing what he said?
    * His confession that the son on man is "the Christ" is because, in faith he believed that Jesus was the Christ. Otherwise, why follow Jesus when he called him to be his disciple if he didn't believe he was the Christ?
    * You make mention the new grace covenant is not written in scripture, well neither is rapture, but you very well sure do believe the meaning of the word rapture to be sound doctrine. Well, if you don't like the words "New grace covenant", then perhaps you will accept the term "New Testament" referred to by Paul?

    Hebrews 9:
    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

    1) Confession of faith was made.
    2) Believing that Jesus is the Christ or Savior of our soul.
    3) Believing that Jesus is the Son of God.
    4) Believing that the God we serve is a living God.



    So no my friend, you are missing the point yourself of what Jesus really meant by the word, "rock".

    Matthew 16
    13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
    14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
    15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

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    Re: Upon This Rock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I'm preaching about this right now... I'll send you my notes
    Awesome! I look forward to it!
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

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    Re: Upon This Rock?

    Thank you all for the many wonderful replies! I have a number of Catholics in my life who Insist Peter was the first pope based on this verse and I'm just trying to help them understand Jesus's intent when He said that.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

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    Re: Upon This Rock?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    I agree with you on many of your points, but not all. I think you are basically just splitting hairs with your response. For most of your response and claim that my post has errors has more to do with the related scriptures I listed. Of which have more to do with the overall plan of salvation, which I did not want to ignore. And I listed them as "related".

    But I do agree, I should have included Jesus's statement which he said, "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

    But the topic of discussion of the meaning of what Jesus meant by "rock" was not so much about the statement that Jesus put forth in his question, "Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?"

    It had more to do with what was Peter's answer to Jesus's question. If you will notice, Jesus then immediately then responded when Peter answered, regarding the rock, "that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church". And all the elements in the few words Peter spoke are in line with my response (listed below at the bottom in bold):


    But it sounds like you are saying that in the topic of the passage, there is no mention at all of justification by faith?
    My friend, it's all wrapped up in faith:
    * From the point where it is was mentioned that God revealed it to him. It was revealed by God to Peter, and Peter in faith believed.
    * Are or you implying that Peter's confessed that the son of man was the son of the living God was not a demonstration of faith? Or are you implying that he confessed, but did not have faith in believing what he said?
    * His confession that the son on man is "the Christ" is because, in faith he believed that Jesus was the Christ. Otherwise, why follow Jesus when he called him to be his disciple if he didn't believe he was the Christ?
    * You make mention the new grace covenant is not written in scripture, well neither is rapture, but you very well sure do believe the meaning of the word rapture to be sound doctrine. Well, if you don't like the words "New grace covenant", then perhaps you will accept the term "New Testament" referred to by Paul?

    Hebrews 9:
    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

    1) Confession of faith was made.
    2) Believing that Jesus is the Christ or Savior of our soul.
    3) Believing that Jesus is the Son of God.
    4) Believing that the God we serve is a living God.



    So no my friend, you are missing the point yourself of what Jesus really meant by the word, "rock".

    Matthew 16
    13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
    14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
    15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    Well, we apparently read Scripture quite different, but I'm used to that.

    Unfortunately Christianity has been busy with what others say about Scripture and not so much what Scripture itself says. Being justified by faith is indeed not mentioned in the Gospels, there only repenting and remission of sins is mentioned. Only in Romans Paul speaks about it Rom. 3:28. So up until Paul started preaching to both gentiles and Jews, this was not preached — except to Abraham but that was 430 years before the Law Gal. 3:17. Acts 3:19 says « Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord »

    In Scripture there are 4 groups:

    1. Natural man, has no contact with God's spirit. 1 Cor. 2:14
    2. Reborn man, he is now child of God. John 1:12, 13; 1 John 3:9, 10
    3. New Creation, is son of God or brother of the Lord. 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15; Rom. 8:29
    4. Adult (teleios) man, Eph. 4:13

    Many have said these are all the same, but that is direct insult to the Holy Spirit who urges us to notice the things that differ Php. 1:10 source text. Well these things differ and it is our duty to try and figure it out.

    There is faith and faith and here also saying these are all the same has the same insulting character to the Holy Spirit. This word is used for example in Mat. 8:10 but also in Eph. 1:15 and what those people actually believed is enormously different. So to all your objections all I'm saying one should distinguish between what is meant. And in the Gospels nobody is justified by Faith, because before that comes being born from above and that is what Israel was called for.

    That's why the Lord says in Mat. 19:28 « ... Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel », this is when the new aion starts after the return of the Lord. He calls the next aion « the regeneration ».

    In the first seven letters of Paul, he works this out Gal. 4:1 « Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all ». In v. 5 « ... that we might receive sonship (Greek text) ». Gal. 3:9 says « So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham ».

    There is a road of salvation on which one has to progress.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Upon This Rock?

    Ok guys...please remember, you are not supposed to be debating in this forum. Fortunately, I'm not be in the faith. I just wanted further clarification.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

  12. #12

    Re: Upon This Rock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Well, we apparently read Scripture quite different, but I'm used to that.

    Unfortunately Christianity has been busy with what others say about Scripture and not so much what Scripture itself says. Being justified by faith is indeed not mentioned in the Gospels, there only repenting and remission of sins is mentioned. Only in Romans Paul speaks about it Rom. 3:28. So up until Paul started preaching to both gentiles and Jews, this was not preached — except to Abraham but that was 430 years before the Law Gal. 3:17. Acts 3:19 says « Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord »

    In Scripture there are 4 groups:

    1. Natural man, has no contact with God's spirit. 1 Cor. 2:14
    2. Reborn man, he is now child of God. John 1:12, 13; 1 John 3:9, 10
    3. New Creation, is son of God or brother of the Lord. 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15; Rom. 8:29
    4. Adult (teleios) man, Eph. 4:13

    Many have said these are all the same, but that is direct insult to the Holy Spirit who urges us to notice the things that differ Php. 1:10 source text. Well these things differ and it is our duty to try and figure it out.

    There is faith and faith and here also saying these are all the same has the same insulting character to the Holy Spirit. This word is used for example in Mat. 8:10 but also in Eph. 1:15 and what those people actually believed is enormously different. So to all your objections all I'm saying one should distinguish between what is meant. And in the Gospels nobody is justified by Faith, because before that comes being born from above and that is what Israel was called for.

    That's why the Lord says in Mat. 19:28 « ... Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel », this is when the new aion starts after the return of the Lord. He calls the next aion « the regeneration ».

    In the first seven letters of Paul, he works this out Gal. 4:1 « Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all ». In v. 5 « ... that we might receive sonship (Greek text) ». Gal. 3:9 says « So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham ».

    There is a road of salvation on which one has to progress.

    Aristarkos
    I can see your point to some degree. It does seems each writer had their own words they routinely used as part of their message of preaching salvation.

    * Apostle Paul did focus with the usage of the word faith. Much of his preaching consisted of the premise of exercising faith in the grace of God.
    * John and the other writers of gospels focused on the word belief and believing on Jesus Christ, the son of God and repentance of sin.


    I value both.

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    Re: Upon This Rock?

    What is the rock in Matthew 16:18? - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.got...this-rock.html
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Re: Upon This Rock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    Awesome! I look forward to it!
    On the way...
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Upon This Rock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    When Jesus made the statement that upon this rock He would build His church...what do you think was meant by that?
    In my view that Rock was the statement of who Jesus is that Peter made...and not Peter Himself.
    Yup, that’s it. My-o-my how the RC got this wrong.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

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  5. The Rock and The Sea
    By Teke in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Aug 29th 2007, 06:50 AM

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