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Thread: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

  1. #16
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    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    More then one day of the Lord isn't anywhere in Scripture, what is in Scripture is the three stages of the Day of the Lord which are represented by the seals (the day of the Lord), the trumpets (the great day of the Lord, Zep. 1:14) and the bowls (the great and dreadful day of the Lord, Mal. 4:5) of the last seven of Daniel mentioned in the Revelation.

    If you look up the phrase day of the Lord you can get a pretty good idea what it is and that there is only one, for example:

    Isa. 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty ... .
    Isa. 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty .
    Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand .
    Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light .
    Mal. 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD .

    Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come .
    1 Thess. 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night .

    The day of the Lord is the day of vengeance at the end of this aion where all those on the earth who think they are something (proud and lofty) will be humiliated when the fierce anger of the LORD come upon them, Zep. 2:2.

    Aristarkos
    Problem for you, that GREAT and NOTABLE DAY as stated in Acts 2:20 happened. It happened on the DAY when Jesus died. This is why Peter CONFIDENTLY declared :
    Joe 2:28* “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.

    After what? AFTER the DAY when the sun was turned to darkness.
    You see there are multiple DAYS and some are about the DAY of Jacob's trouble, and some for Israel's restoration.
    It is NOT the SAME Day.

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    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Quote Originally Posted by OrokuSaki View Post
    I am still fascinated with Revelations 12.
    There are a number of issues that I could address in your notes, but would prefer to deal with them separately. We agree on some things. On others we wouldn't agree.

    I will just deal with one issue here. I think you are conflating Dan 7 with Dan 8. Dan 7 deals with the 3.5 years of Antichristian Reign. Dan 8 deals with ancient Persia and with the ancient Greek Empire. The Abomination of Desolation refers to Antiochus 4 of the ancient Syrian Kingdom.

    There is a completely different AoD in Dan 9, which doesn't have anything to do with either Antiochus 4 or the Antichrist, in my view. There, the AoD refers, I think, to the desolation of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. This is also what Jesus referred to in his Olivet Discourse (Matt 24; Mark 13; Luke 17;21).

    We are apparently both postribulational. That's good!

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    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    There are a number of issues that I could address in your notes, but would prefer to deal with them separately. We agree on some things. On others we wouldn't agree.

    I will just deal with one issue here. I think you are conflating Dan 7 with Dan 8. Dan 7 deals with the 3.5 years of Antichristian Reign. Dan 8 deals with ancient Persia and with the ancient Greek Empire. The Abomination of Desolation refers to Antiochus 4 of the ancient Syrian Kingdom.

    There is a completely different AoD in Dan 9, which doesn't have anything to do with either Antiochus 4 or the Antichrist, in my view. There, the AoD refers, I think, to the desolation of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. This is also what Jesus referred to in his Olivet Discourse (Matt 24; Mark 13; Luke 17;21).

    We are apparently both postribulational. That's good!
    Dan. 7 and 8 are both about the Little Horn, it even calls him the Little Horn.

    Dan. 9 is partly about the people {Romans/Europeans} of the Prince that SHALL COME {Anti-Christ} so its about both, but mostly about the End Time Anti-Christ. You don't really believe a Roman made a Covenant with Israel and the MANY 2000 years ago do you ? When everything doesn't fit the scriptures, it can't be right, too many people just accept things that seem right or close.

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    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Dan. 7 and 8 are both about the Little Horn, it even calls him the Little Horn.

    Dan. 9 is partly about the people {Romans/Europeans} of the Prince that SHALL COME {Anti-Christ} so its about both, but mostly about the End Time Anti-Christ. You don't really believe a Roman made a Covenant with Israel and the MANY 2000 years ago do you ? When everything doesn't fit the scriptures, it can't be right, too many people just accept things that seem right or close.
    On the contrary, most of the early Christians tended to interpret this the way I do--not the way you do. Actually, both views existed in the Early Church--it's just that my view seems to have been more prevalent.

    I do interpret the Roman Army to be the ones who desolated Jerusalem and the temple, as indicated in Dan 9.26. I just don't think that the Romans were the ones who made a covenant for the last Week. Instead, I think the passage is identifying the Messiah as the one who makes a covenant in that last Week, in order to fulfill the 6 things mentioned in Dan 9.24.

    The order, from my pov, is this:
    1) Christ confirms the covenant of Salvation in the 70th Week.
    2) The Roman Army desolates the city of Jerusalem and the temple.

    Vss. 26 and 27 is a parallelism, each verse repeating the same order:

    Vs 26:
    1) Christ dies
    2) The Romans destroy the city and the sanctuary
    Vs 27:
    1) Christ confirms a covenant in the last Week
    2) An abominable desolator, the Roman Army, stands in proximity to the temple

    No, I don't believe the Little Horn of Dan 7 is the same Little Horn of Dan 8. There's not much more I can say about it, since the context is what determines the Little Horn is in each case--not the fact they are identical terms.

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    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Quote Originally Posted by OrokuSaki View Post
    Not sure why but I can't edit a post and I am new here.. I just get a spinning wheel, tried chrome and firefox. I used to run a vbulletin site so figured maybe it was a restriction..

    Anyways... who do you think the woman who goes into the wilderness is? The church?
    Often people refer to this extended day of the Lord, but I agree with you it's just the one day.

    The woman fleeing is the faithful of Israel, the conservative "orthodox" rather than the liberal new age "Kabbalists" who will bend their knee to the antichrist (false Messiah)

    This fits in with the fleeing of Matthew 24, also an event occurring 3.5 years before the end.

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    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Often people refer to this extended day of the Lord, but I agree with you it's just the one day.

    The woman fleeing is the faithful of Israel, the conservative "orthodox" rather than the liberal new age "Kabbalists" who will bend their knee to the antichrist (false Messiah)

    This fits in with the fleeing of Matthew 24, also an event occurring 3.5 years before the end.
    There is no comparison between the two.
    • Those who must flee in Matthew 24 do so with their own power - the Woman of Revelation 12 is given eagles wings
    • Those who must flee must flee to the mountains - the Woman is carried by wings to the Wilderness
    • Those who must flee "see" the Abomination of Desolation - the Woman is carried away to avoid the Dragon
    • Those who must flee are subject to the Law of Moses - the Woman has no such restriction
    • Those who "see" the Abomination of Desolation must be in and around Jerusalem - the Woman is in heaven
    • Those who flee face the Great Tribulation - the Woman is helped by the earth
    • The Great Tribulation is God's wrath on men - the Woman faces a "flood" from the Dragon
    • Those who flee, being under Law of the Sabbath, are Jews who hate Christ - The Woman brought forth "those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ"
    • There is no such term or concept of "faithful Israel" in the whole Bible. Moses, the prophets, John Baptist, Jesus and the Apostles ALL concluded Israel a stiff-necked rebellious unfaithful generation of vipers. God concludes "ALL Israel in UNBELIEF" (Rom.11:32)

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    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    On the contrary, most of the early Christians tended to interpret this the way I do--not the way you do. Actually, both views existed in the Early Church--it's just that my view seems to have been more prevalent.
    I don't even understand the point, we really can't "KNOW"what the early church understood in full, nor could their knowledge even remotely be compared to ours. I mean we once thought the earth was flat also, so I don't know what thy knew, but that has no bearing on the facts in reality.

    I do interpret the Roman Army to be the ones who desolated Jerusalem and the temple, as indicated in Dan 9.26. I just don't think that the Romans were the ones who made a covenant for the last Week. Instead, I think the passage is identifying the Messiah as the one who makes a covenant in that last Week, in order to fulfill the 6 things mentioned in Dan 9.24.

    The order, from my pov, is this:
    1) Christ confirms the covenant of Salvation in the 70th Week.
    2) The Roman Army desolates the city of Jerusalem and the temple.
    The Prophecy has nothing to do with Jesus Christ, its about Israel. There are TWO MARKERS, The Wall, and Jesus Christ. Before the Wall, between the Wall and Jesus, and there is one week left to repent in. The Prophecy says Israel must repent before the 70th week can come to pass. I know you don't think Israel has repented so how do you guys get around these facts ? Well many try to make Israel and the Church ONE....which is just untrue, and without that there can be no way that anyone can see Israel as having repented/atoned at this moment. Its a future happening.

    I just can't comprehend how people can insert Jesus in the passage to Confirm the AGREEMENT....Covenant mans agreement, not Holy Agreement, maybe that is the hangup. Dan. 11:40-43 tells us who the MANY ARE !! Its not just an Agreement with Israel, its an Agreement with the whole Mediterranean Sea Region. Then he conquers MANY NATIONS.

    No, I don't believe the Little Horn of Dan 7 is the same Little Horn of Dan 8. There's not much more I can say about it, since the context is what determines the Little Horn is in each case--not the fact they are identical terms.
    Each passage clearly cites it as END TIME EVENTS. There were no chapters and verses, those two chapters tell the same story about the same individual, from the TWO PLACES he arises from....the E.U. {Fourth Beast}and from one of the Four Generals Kingdoms in the END TIMES........Greece. And Greece is in the E.U. that is the only one of the Four Generals Kingdoms that fit the criteria. Then we get the Dan. 11 passage which entail all the Greek Kings, I WONDER WHY ? And Antiochus is his forerunner, and Antiochus has a High Priest named Jason who tried to Hellenize the Jews but the Maccabeans Revolted, THINK False Prophet FORERUNNER !!

    Then in the last 10 or so verses of chapter we are told about the coming Anti-Christ.

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    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    There is no comparison between the two.
    • Those who must flee in Matthew 24 do so with their own power - the Woman of Revelation 12 is given eagles wings
    The eagles wings refer to God protecting her, that should be obvious, if the Anti-Christ {whom the Dragon sends after her} can't get at her, the God has to be protecting her. Rev. 7 says God orders the Angels to HOLD UP on the coming Trumpet Judgments { hurt not the trees, seas and the earth} until the 144, 000 {Jews that Flee Judea} are safe.

    Those who must flee must flee to the mountains - the Woman is carried by wings to the Wilderness
    The word used for WILDERNESS means a place of solitude, or a place where one can be alone, it doesn't mean Wilderness per say the way we see it.

    Those who must flee "see" the Abomination of Desolation - the Woman is carried away to avoid the Dragon
    The Dragon is Satan, just like he used King Herod to try and kill baby Jesus he will use the Anti-Christ to try and kill the Jewish peoples. Just like he used Hitler etc. The AoD is a warning to those Jews who REPENTED to Flee Judea. the False Prophet places the AoD in the Temple in my opinion, 30 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem, thus at the 1290 which comes 30 days BEFORE the 1260, both NUMBERS are how long it is from each event until the Second Coming !! So yes, she Flees to a place God will protect her via Gods {Jesus/Matt. 24} guidance, just before the Beast or Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem/Israel/Region to become THE BEAST.

    Those who must flee are subject to the Law of Moses - the Woman has no such restriction
    They have already repented, we are all under Grace.

    Those who "see" the Abomination of Desolation must be in and around Jerusalem - the Woman is in heaven
    John sees a Vision in Heaven because it had to do with the Sun, Moon and the 12 Stars {Gen. 37}. The Woman = Israel, not the Church.

    Those who flee face the Great Tribulation - the Woman is helped by the earth
    You don't think the 1/3 who Flee face the Great Tribulation ? Many of their family members who refused to repent {2/3} will DIE !! They have to live in Petra/Bozrah for 3.5 years, so they do have to endure Tribulation, the very fact that they must live in the Mountains for 3.5 years is TROUBLES !! The EARTH stops the Anti-Christ just like it stopped the Pharos from killing the Jews, {wall of fire/Sea parts etc.}.

    The Great Tribulation is God's wrath on men - the Woman faces a "flood" from the Dragon
    The Flood is the Anti-Christ's Army....just like the prophecy says in Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    Flood just means an Army coming against.....................

    Those who flee, being under Law of the Sabbath, are Jews who hate Christ - The Woman brought forth "those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ"
    The Jews who repent are the ONLY ONES that Flee, they OBEY Jesus !! Matt. 24.........Flee Judea.

    There is no such term or concept of "faithful Israel" in the whole Bible. Moses, the prophets, John Baptist, Jesus and the Apostles ALL concluded Israel a stiff-necked rebellious unfaithful generation of vipers. God concludes "ALL Israel in UNBELIEF" (Rom.11:32)
    They were FAITHFUL ENOUGH to bring forth the SEED that brought Salvation unto the Whole World.....there is no such thing as a Man without sin either, that doesn't mean we are not of God via Grace.

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    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    I don't even understand the point, we really can't "KNOW"what the early church understood in full, nor could their knowledge even remotely be compared to ours. I mean we once thought the earth was flat also, so I don't know what thy knew, but that has no bearing on the facts in reality.
    I'm talking about what we do know--not about myths. What we know about the Church Fathers is that they had views about Dan 9, the 70 Weeks, and the Olivet Discourse. They did not, for the most part, believe this was about the Antichrist. Prophecy of the Antichrist is found in Dan 7. There were a few Church Fathers who did indeed see the Antichrist in these passages, and so such a view does have validity. But I'm just saying that *most* of the Church Fathers believed these passages had to do with the destruction of the OT system, which took place in 70 AD and afterwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    The Prophecy has nothing to do with Jesus Christ, its about Israel. There are TWO MARKERS, The Wall, and Jesus Christ. Before the Wall, between the Wall and Jesus, and there is one week left to repent in. The Prophecy says Israel must repent before the 70th week can come to pass. I know you don't think Israel has repented so how do you guys get around these facts ? Well many try to make Israel and the Church ONE....which is just untrue, and without that there can be no way that anyone can see Israel as having repented/atoned at this moment. Its a future happening.
    Why are you referring to me as "you guys?" What other guy is involved in my position? And I don't understand your reference to "the Wall?" What is that all about?

    Anyway, I don't see anything about Israel repenting before the 70th Week? On the contrary, it appears that the Messiah comes to deal with "transgression" and "sin," as indicated in Dan 7.24, which are the 6 things Messiah comes to fulfill.

    Israel's sin achieved its height at the 1st coming of Christ, when they crucified him. That's when Messiah's work was done, and that was, I believe, the fulfillment of the 70th Week. The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple followed in that generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    I just can't comprehend how people can insert Jesus in the passage to Confirm the AGREEMENT....Covenant mans agreement, not Holy Agreement, maybe that is the hangup. Dan. 11:40-43 tells us who the MANY ARE !! Its not just an Agreement with Israel, its an Agreement with the whole Mediterranean Sea Region. Then he conquers MANY NATIONS.
    Since the "Anointed One" is indeed in the context, I interpret the Messiah to be the one who confirms the 6 things stated that will be accomplished in Dan 9.24. It is, basically, a confirmation of what the OT Law had alluded to, the atonement of Christ. It was a confirmation of God's eternal covenant with Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    Each passage clearly cites it as END TIME EVENTS. There were no chapters and verses, those two chapters tell the same story about the same individual, from the TWO PLACES he arises from....the E.U. {Fourth Beast}and from one of the Four Generals Kingdoms in the END TIMES........Greece. And Greece is in the E.U. that is the only one of the Four Generals Kingdoms that fit the criteria. Then we get the Dan. 11 passage which entail all the Greek Kings, I WONDER WHY ? And Antiochus is his forerunner, and Antiochus has a High Priest named Jason who tried to Hellenize the Jews but the Maccabeans Revolted, THINK False Prophet FORERUNNER !!
    Since I believe Dan 8 and 11 are largely about Antiochus 4, one of the branches off of Alexander's empire, I don't think they have a thing to do with the Antichrist! The Antichrist is described in Dan 7 as emerging as leader over a 10 nation empire, probably located in Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    Then in the last 10 or so verses of chapter we are told about the coming Anti-Christ.
    I believe that none of Dan 11 has a thing to do with the Antichrist. It is all about Antiochus 4, whose reign initiates a time of trouble for Israel, resulting in the Jewish Diaspora under the Romans. This is what Jesus talked about in his Olivet Discourse, when he said that Israel would be led into exile until the times of the Gentiles are completed. It all began in the time of Antiochus, with judgment peaking in 70 - 135 AD. Then a long wandering began for Israel, which will end at Christ's 2nd Coming. We have different views, and that's okay.

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    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm talking about what we do know--not about myths. What we know about the Church Fathers is that they had views about Dan 9, the 70 Weeks, and the Olivet Discourse. They did not, for the most part, believe this was about the Antichrist. Prophecy of the Antichrist is found in Dan 7. There were a few Church Fathers who did indeed see the Antichrist in these passages, and so such a view does have validity. But I'm just saying that *most* of the Church Fathers believed these passages had to do with the destruction of the OT system, which took place in 70 AD and afterwards.
    \

    Just like today, there were no doubt many different beliefs, you no doubt are speaking about ones that agrees with you, but if they were wrong then, and they were, then their points are still invalid, which is why I never try to say what people believed 2000 years ago, I try to stay with today's beliefs, the Holy Spirit is continually teaching us new things, so why is today's understandings not the most relevant facts? We have far more knowledge then they did. We are living in the last days when God promised Daniel these mysteries would be revealed. In those days it wasn't that important, Paul knew it wasn't at hand as did other leaders, today it is at hand. The Jews that were not Christians thought Rme was the Fourth Beast, and it was, if Israel had accepted Christ there would have bee no Church Age, but they didn't, and God knew beforehand they wouldn't of course. Knowing or not knowing, doesn't change the facts, the truths are still truths.

    Why are you referring to me as "you guys?" What other guy is involved in my position? And I don't understand your reference to "the Wall?" What is that all about?
    You guys who see Jesus as creating a Covenant here when it just doesn't happen.

    Anyway, I don't see anything about Israel repenting before the 70th Week? On the contrary, it appears that the Messiah comes to deal with "transgression" and "sin," as indicated in Dan 7.24, which are the 6 things Messiah comes to fulfill.

    Israel's sin achieved its height at the 1st coming of Christ, when they crucified him. That's when Messiah's work was done, and that was, I believe, the fulfillment of the 70th Week. The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple followed in that generation.
    Really ? You don't see a call for Israel to ATONE/Repent before the 70 Weeks can be fulfilled ?

    Daniel's 70 Weeks Decree against Israel {via Gabriel}


    In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

    1. Finish the transgression {Israel has to STOP their rebellion against God.}
    2. Make and end of sins {Daily WILLFUL sins, during the 1000 year reign men will still be sinners, but have no desire to sin, Satan is in the pit.}
    3. To make reconciliation for iniquity {Israel MUST RECONCILE which means ATONE or REPENT before the 70th week can come to pass}
    4. Bring in everlasting righteousness {Everlasting Righteousness must be brought in before the 70th week prophecy comes to pass, meaning Jesus reigns.}
    5. To seal up vision and prophecy {ALL Prophecy must be FULFILLED/Sealed up}
    6. Anoint the most Holy {Jesus must be ANOINTED as the King of kings and Lord of lords}

    1. The Hebrew word used for transgression denotes revolt or rebellion. The Jewish people chose to reject God, many chose to stay in Babylon once they were freed. It also denotes their rejection of Jesus Christ. Jesus prophesied in Matthew 23:39 that the Jewish people would not see him again until they accepted him. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. So in order for Jesus to return, Israel has to repent of their rejection of God and Jesus, and Israel will open their hearts to the Messiah, as Paul, Isaiah and Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) prophesied, among others.

    2. This is fairly straightforward, sins can only end when the millennial reign starts, so by the time this 70 week decree is over, Jesus will have returned to set up his kingdom, ushering in the millennial kingdom where there will be no sins. Since the tribulation week is the last week of the 70 weeks decree, that makes perfect sense, as soon as the tribulation period ends, or the "time of Jacob's trouble", then "sins will end".

    3. Israel has to be reconciled unto God before the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. There is no doubt that Jesus died for all of our sins, thus the atonement for sins has been made, but there is a conditional requirement for all of us to receive that atonement, we must accept Jesus as our Savior. When Israel accepts the Messiah Jesus, as their Messiah, then the atonement for sins will have been completed, and Israel will have been reconciled unto God, thereby ushering in the millennial kingdom.

    4. This 70 week decree has to bring in everlasting righteousness, and we know this can not happen until Jesus sets up his Kingdom. This world has always had sin, and always will until Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. By the time Daniels prophecy ends, it must usher in everlasting righteousness.

    5. Seal up vision and prophecy, the word used here denotes to close up, meaning that before this 70th week can come to an end, all prophecy must be fulfilled or closed up. This will only happen when Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah and he lands on Mt. Zion to rule over this wicked world with a rod of iron.

    6. The very last goal that this 70 week prophecy has to usher in is the anointing of the most holy. The bible says most holy, many try to add holy place, but whether it is the temple being anointed, or Jesus Christ as Lord of Lord and Kings of Kings as I suspect, we know this must happen before the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled. And Jesus must return and rule on earth.

    All six of these things have to happen before this prophecy is fulfilled. These are six spiritual goals that have to come to pass or this prophecy will not be finished or sealed up. We know these things have not come to pass yet, but we also know they are very near to happening, therefore watch, for Israel is now a nation again, and the world is against her, soon she will need her Messiah s help, then she will call upon him, and he will save her from this wicked world.

    This Prophecy has ZERO t do with Jesus dying for our sins, it all about Israel REPENTING, Abraham was made righteous WAY BEFORE Jesus died for our sins, it was BY PROMISE. Don't get hung up on the actual death, we were forgiven before the foundation of the world.

    The 70th Week can not come to pass until Israel REPENTS.

    Gotta go check on my mom, and get her some food, I will finish later....God Bless brother. Just remember, sword sharpens sword. Its all good.

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    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    \

    Just like today, there were no doubt many different beliefs, you no doubt are speaking about ones that agrees with you, but if they were wrong then, and they were, then their points are still invalid, which is why I never try to say what people believed 2000 years ago, I try to stay with today's beliefs, the Holy Spirit is continually teaching us new things, so why is today's understandings not the most relevant facts? We have far more knowledge then they did. We are living in the last days when God promised Daniel these mysteries would be revealed. In those days it wasn't that important, Paul knew it wasn't at hand as did other leaders, today it is at hand. The Jews that were not Christians thought Rme was the Fourth Beast, and it was, if Israel had accepted Christ there would have bee no Church Age, but they didn't, and God knew beforehand they wouldn't of course. Knowing or not knowing, doesn't change the facts, the truths are still truths.
    I'm not at all convinced God reserved greater knowledge of the Scriptures for us today than in the Early Church. Why would they need the Scriptures any less than us? Perhaps we know some things in hindsight now, and are closer to the climax of truth in this age, but this doesn't mean our interpretation of Scriptures are necessarily any more sound. I might even think there is an argument for a great corruption of truth in our day, due to the ongoing apostasy since the advent of Liberal Christianity.

    But I do find it relevant to know if our positions had any credence in earlier times. If our views are too novel, it is highly likely that they are modern innovations, and not Spirit-led truth for the universal Church.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    You guys who see Jesus as creating a Covenant here when it just doesn't happen.
    Then I am *not* one of those "guys!" I don't believe Jesus creates a covenant here. I believe he *confirms* a covenant here. He is confirming the covenant God made with the Jewish People.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    Really ? You don't see a call for Israel to ATONE/Repent before the 70 Weeks can be fulfilled ?

    Daniel's 70 Weeks Decree against Israel {via Gabriel}


    In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

    1. Finish the transgression {Israel has to STOP their rebellion against God.}
    2. Make and end of sins {Daily WILLFUL sins, during the 1000 year reign men will still be sinners, but have no desire to sin, Satan is in the pit.}
    3. To make reconciliation for iniquity {Israel MUST RECONCILE which means ATONE or REPENT before the 70th week can come to pass}
    4. Bring in everlasting righteousness {Everlasting Righteousness must be brought in before the 70th week prophecy comes to pass, meaning Jesus reigns.}
    5. To seal up vision and prophecy {ALL Prophecy must be FULFILLED/Sealed up}
    6. Anoint the most Holy {Jesus must be ANOINTED as the King of kings and Lord of lords}

    1. The Hebrew word used for transgression denotes revolt or rebellion. The Jewish people chose to reject God, many chose to stay in Babylon once they were freed. It also denotes their rejection of Jesus Christ. Jesus prophesied in Matthew 23:39 that the Jewish people would not see him again until they accepted him. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. So in order for Jesus to return, Israel has to repent of their rejection of God and Jesus, and Israel will open their hearts to the Messiah, as Paul, Isaiah and Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) prophesied, among others.

    2. This is fairly straightforward, sins can only end when the millennial reign starts, so by the time this 70 week decree is over, Jesus will have returned to set up his kingdom, ushering in the millennial kingdom where there will be no sins. Since the tribulation week is the last week of the 70 weeks decree, that makes perfect sense, as soon as the tribulation period ends, or the "time of Jacob's trouble", then "sins will end".

    3. Israel has to be reconciled unto God before the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. There is no doubt that Jesus died for all of our sins, thus the atonement for sins has been made, but there is a conditional requirement for all of us to receive that atonement, we must accept Jesus as our Savior. When Israel accepts the Messiah Jesus, as their Messiah, then the atonement for sins will have been completed, and Israel will have been reconciled unto God, thereby ushering in the millennial kingdom.

    4. This 70 week decree has to bring in everlasting righteousness, and we know this can not happen until Jesus sets up his Kingdom. This world has always had sin, and always will until Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. By the time Daniels prophecy ends, it must usher in everlasting righteousness.

    5. Seal up vision and prophecy, the word used here denotes to close up, meaning that before this 70th week can come to an end, all prophecy must be fulfilled or closed up. This will only happen when Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah and he lands on Mt. Zion to rule over this wicked world with a rod of iron.

    6. The very last goal that this 70 week prophecy has to usher in is the anointing of the most holy. The bible says most holy, many try to add holy place, but whether it is the temple being anointed, or Jesus Christ as Lord of Lord and Kings of Kings as I suspect, we know this must happen before the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled. And Jesus must return and rule on earth.

    All six of these things have to happen before this prophecy is fulfilled. These are six spiritual goals that have to come to pass or this prophecy will not be finished or sealed up. We know these things have not come to pass yet, but we also know they are very near to happening, therefore watch, for Israel is now a nation again, and the world is against her, soon she will need her Messiah s help, then she will call upon him, and he will save her from this wicked world.

    This Prophecy has ZERO t do with Jesus dying for our sins, it all about Israel REPENTING, Abraham was made righteous WAY BEFORE Jesus died for our sins, it was BY PROMISE. Don't get hung up on the actual death, we were forgiven before the foundation of the world.

    The 70th Week can not come to pass until Israel REPENTS.

    Gotta go check on my mom, and get her some food, I will finish later....God Bless brother. Just remember, sword sharpens sword. Its all good.
    Yea, it is. We disagree on this because you interpret the "6 things" in Dan 9.24 as "Israel's repentance." I, on the other hand, view them as fulfilled at the cross by Jesus. How you interpret this determines your outlook.

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