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Thread: Question for partial preterist

  1. #31
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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    This means Luke is NOT expanding Matthew, but rather giving something Jesus stated which was SEPARATE to what Matthew recorded.
    Here they are side by side. I think it's self-evident they are speaking of the same thing:

    But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! (Luke 21)

    So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! (Matthew 24)

    Seeing Jerusalem surrounded by armies was a sign of equal weight to Luke as the AoD itself was to Matthew; so they are functionally identical for the purpose of identifying which event Jesus was talking about.

    In 66 AD Cestius Gallus came with armies and surrounded Jerusalem, but then left.
    After he left the Christians left Jerusalem.
    Right, so they clearly understood it the same way I do reading it. And they were correct to leave because what Jesus predicted came to pass.

    Mat 24:22* And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved.
    ... Yes, no human being in Judea, which is why they had to flee Judea rather than the whole planet. I don't see where the perspective changes when the conversation was about the fate of Jerusalem, the temple, and the people who rejected Christ.

    So a lot of blood and Jews were killed there in 1099.
    The death toll of 70 AD compares with all the crusades combined (IOW over a period of 200 years). 1099 didn't come close, and was predominately against Muslims, not Jews. Additionally, the temple was not leveled like it was under the Romans, as was predicted by Jesus, so none of the crusade sieges fit the description.

    In order for Luke 21/Matthew 24 to apply:

    A) Jerusalem must be surrounded by armies. (Clearly describing a siege).
    B) The tribulation/suffering must be extremely severe.
    C) Jerusalem must be defeated in the conflict.
    D) The temple must be destroyed. (Well, it's definitely been destroyed, so this one can't be fulfilled anymore).
    E) The survivors must be taken captive and scattered in slavery.

    Only the siege of 70 AD fits this description after Christ. (D) and (E) don't apply to 1099.

  2. #32
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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Here they are side by side. I think it's self-evident they are speaking of the same thing:

    But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! (Luke 21)

    So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! (Matthew 24)

    Seeing Jerusalem surrounded by armies was a sign of equal weight to Luke as the AoD itself was to Matthew; so they are functionally identical for the purpose of identifying which event Jesus was talking about.
    Actually it is self-evident they are NOT speaking about the SAME thing.
    What IS self-evident is that they speak of SIMILAR things.

    This is like Dan 7 and Dan 8 BOTH speak of a little horn. However the little horn is NOT the SAME in BOTH visions.
    I gave an example on another thread where let's hypothesise that Jesus spoke about the 20th century.
    If Luke recorded part of what Jesus said and Matthew another part, then BOTH would note that Jesus spoke about a War which started in the East of Europe, and how Germany invaded another country, and how after a few years the US was embroiled, and the conflict was around the whole world.

    Yet Luke could have been recording the words of Jesus about the 1st world war and Matthew the 2nd. The similarities do NOT make them the SAME, it only makes it possible that they might be the same.

    You see an army OUTSIDE the city is NOT the same as an army INSIDE the Holy place. You SEE the SIGN at a different time.
    Luke 21 is SPECIFICALLY about 66 AD, whereas Matthew IF it is about that time is about 70 AD.

    Right, so they clearly understood it the same way I do reading it. And they were correct to leave because what Jesus predicted came to pass.
    No, they understood this from Luke 21 ALONE. You see no one at the time or later saw the Abomination of Desolation in the Holy Place.

    ... Yes, no human being in Judea, which is why they had to flee Judea rather than the whole planet. I don't see where the perspective changes when the conversation was about the fate of Jerusalem, the temple, and the people who rejected Christ.
    Nope, the addition of Judea is solely yours.
    In fact there were many human beings alive in Judea in 70 AD, even Jews were allowed to live (like Josephus). It was ONLY Jews in Jerusalem who were in rebellion against Rome who were killed.
    The perspective changes because we have an event seen IN Jerusalem which is to be fled and then AFTERWARDS the Great Tribulation is stated as then occurring. IOW the GT is NOT specifically what happens in Jerusalem at all.

    The death toll of 70 AD compares with all the crusades combined (IOW over a period of 200 years). 1099 didn't come close, and was predominately against Muslims, not Jews. Additionally, the temple was not leveled like it was under the Romans, as was predicted by Jesus, so none of the crusade sieges fit the description.
    Actually there were 10,000 Jews killed in one city alone BEFORE the crusaders even reached Israel.
    When Jerusalem was taken this was the blood of the Jews that was noted, not Muslims who had fled to other strongholds, and to which the Jews were not (in the main) able to find sanctuary.

    In order for Luke 21/Matthew 24 to apply:

    A) Jerusalem must be surrounded by armies. (Clearly describing a siege).
    B) The tribulation/suffering must be extremely severe.
    C) Jerusalem must be defeated in the conflict.
    D) The temple must be destroyed. (Well, it's definitely been destroyed, so this one can't be fulfilled anymore).
    E) The survivors must be taken captive and scattered in slavery.

    Only the siege of 70 AD fits this description after Christ. (D) and (E) don't apply to 1099.
    I agree with this that Luke 21 fits. The real problem is that Matthew 24 does not.
    You see whenever anyone claims Matt 24 fits they ignore a statement made just before verse 15 which is pertinent as well as other differences:
    Mat 24:14* And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    Now IF the end to come was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD then the gospel had to be preached in all the world.

    The BIGGEST problem though beyond this is that you miss what Jesus states are the SIGNS.
    We are told TWO signs:
    M) the AoD is SEEN standing in the Holy place.
    L) the armies are SEEN surrounding the city.

    L was seen in 66 AD, but M was NOT seen in 66 AD, nor was it seen in 70 AD. Eusebius who claimed these are the same event and was agreed with from that time on by the church, stated the AoD was placed in the Holy place AFTER the temple had been destroyed. The problem with this claim is that this means if you waited to SEE that sign then it was TOO late.
    I believe Jesus spoke of REAL things that people could ACTUALLY SEE. Luke 21:20 was ACTUALLY SEEN. Therefore why do we NOT think that Matt 24:15 would ACTUALLY be SEEN? There is no valid answer to this EXCEPT to note that Matt 24:15 has NOT been SEEN. Luke did NOT reword what Matt 24:15 states. This is a problem for anyone who thinks therefore they are the SAME event.

    What is particularly interesting is that Luke focuses on what happens to the Jews, as evidence it seems for Theophilus, whilst Matthew writes about what happens to the saints, focusing on Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Here they are side by side. I think it's self-evident they are speaking of the same thing:

    But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! (Luke 21)

    So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! (Matthew 24)

    Seeing Jerusalem surrounded by armies was a sign of equal weight to Luke as the AoD itself was to Matthew; so they are functionally identical for the purpose of identifying which event Jesus was talking about.
    Actually it is self-evident they are NOT speaking about the SAME thing.
    What IS self-evident is that they speak of SIMILAR things.

    This is like Dan 7 and Dan 8 BOTH speak of a little horn. However the little horn is NOT the SAME in BOTH visions.
    I gave an example on another thread where let's hypothesise that Jesus spoke about the 20th century.
    If Luke recorded part of what Jesus said and Matthew another part, then BOTH would note that Jesus spoke about a War which started in the East of Europe, and how Germany invaded another country, and how after a few years the US was embroiled, and the conflict was around the whole world.

    Yet Luke could have been recording the words of Jesus about the 1st world war and Matthew the 2nd. The similarities do NOT make them the SAME, it only makes it possible that they might be the same.

    You see an army OUTSIDE the city is NOT the same as an army INSIDE the Holy place. You SEE the SIGN at a different time.
    Luke 21 is SPECIFICALLY about 66 AD, whereas Matthew IF it is about that time is about 70 AD.

    Right, so they clearly understood it the same way I do reading it. And they were correct to leave because what Jesus predicted came to pass.
    No, they understood this from Luke 21 ALONE. You see no one at the time or later saw the Abomination of Desolation in the Holy Place.

    ... Yes, no human being in Judea, which is why they had to flee Judea rather than the whole planet. I don't see where the perspective changes when the conversation was about the fate of Jerusalem, the temple, and the people who rejected Christ.
    Nope, the addition of Judea is solely yours.
    In fact there were many human beings alive in Judea in 70 AD, even Jews were allowed to live (like Josephus). It was ONLY Jews in Jerusalem who were in rebellion against Rome who were killed.
    The perspective changes because we have an event seen IN Jerusalem which is to be fled and then AFTERWARDS the Great Tribulation is stated as then occurring. IOW the GT is NOT specifically what happens in Jerusalem at all.

    The death toll of 70 AD compares with all the crusades combined (IOW over a period of 200 years). 1099 didn't come close, and was predominately against Muslims, not Jews. Additionally, the temple was not leveled like it was under the Romans, as was predicted by Jesus, so none of the crusade sieges fit the description.
    Actually there were 10,000 Jews killed in one city alone BEFORE the crusaders even reached Israel.
    When Jerusalem was taken this was the blood of the Jews that was noted, not Muslims who had fled to other strongholds, and to which the Jews were not (in the main) able to find sanctuary.

    In order for Luke 21/Matthew 24 to apply:

    A) Jerusalem must be surrounded by armies. (Clearly describing a siege).
    B) The tribulation/suffering must be extremely severe.
    C) Jerusalem must be defeated in the conflict.
    D) The temple must be destroyed. (Well, it's definitely been destroyed, so this one can't be fulfilled anymore).
    E) The survivors must be taken captive and scattered in slavery.

    Only the siege of 70 AD fits this description after Christ. (D) and (E) don't apply to 1099.
    I agree with this that Luke 21 fits. The real problem is that Matthew 24 does not.
    You see whenever anyone claims Matt 24 fits they ignore a statement made just before verse 15 which is pertinent as well as other differences:
    Mat 24:14* And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    Now IF the end to come was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD then the gospel had to be preached in all the world.

    The BIGGEST problem though beyond this is that you miss what Jesus states are the SIGNS.
    We are told TWO signs:
    M) the AoD is SEEN standing in the Holy place.
    L) the armies are SEEN surrounding the city.

    L was seen in 66 AD, but M was NOT seen in 66 AD, nor was it seen in 70 AD. Eusebius who claimed these are the same event and was agreed with from that time on by the church, stated the AoD was placed in the Holy place AFTER the temple had been destroyed. The problem with this claim is that this means if you waited to SEE that sign then it was TOO late.
    I believe Jesus spoke of REAL things that people could ACTUALLY SEE. Luke 21:20 was ACTUALLY SEEN. Therefore why do we NOT think that Matt 24:15 would ACTUALLY be SEEN? There is no valid answer to this EXCEPT to note that Matt 24:15 has NOT been SEEN. Luke did NOT reword what Matt 24:15 states. This is a problem for anyone who thinks therefore they are the SAME event.

    What is particularly interesting is that Luke focuses on what happens to the Jews, as evidence it seems for Theophilus, whilst Matthew writes about what happens to the saints, focusing on Christians.

  3. #33
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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually it is self-evident they are NOT speaking about the SAME thing. What IS self-evident is that they speak of SIMILAR things.
    OK, we'll just let the readers decide since I quoted both passages together. Mere conjecture about what the "AoD" actually is, isn't persuasive IMO. Both quotations of the event list the same results and instructions to the listeners, even verbatim in several places (e.x.: "Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! Luke 21:23, Matthew 24:19 identical transcript). I'm not sure what your other end-time positions are, but I think you need to reconcile the fact that this is very clearly speaking of the same event.

    You see an army OUTSIDE the city is NOT the same as an army INSIDE the Holy place.
    1) It does not say an army "in the holy place," is just says "abomination of desolation" - which is up for speculation on what that actually means.
    2) You can simultaneously have an army outside the city, and [whatever symbolic thing] inside the city.
    3) Whatever Luke and Matthew are describing, they both give the same instructions of response:

    When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. (Luke)
    When you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. (Matthew)

    They both actually list the desolation as being the signal to flee. Luke is simply being generic and includes the overall scenario Jesus was describing. It's really difficult for me to understand how you can read this and not conclude they are speaking of the same thing.

    In fact there were many human beings alive in Judea in 70 AD
    Right, that's why it says:

    And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. (Matthew)

    When Jerusalem was taken this was the blood of the Jews that was noted
    The absolute highest, most liberal historical estimates of the casualties don't come remotely close to 70 AD. 1099, as bad as it was, wouldn't have matched 70 AD if it happened 10 times over.

    What is particularly interesting is that Luke focuses on what happens to the Jews, as evidence it seems for Theophilus, whilst Matthew writes about what happens to the saints, focusing on Christians.
    Right - Luke is also giving a historical account, which is why he includes the "armies" with the desolation. Matthew, writing to Jews, doesn't bother with the "armies" part but alludes to Daniel instead. They are both talking about the same thing which was the siege of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple.

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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Matthew, writing to Jews, doesn't bother with the "armies" part but alludes to Daniel instead.
    Matthew wrote to Christians not Jews. Nothing in Matthew 24 is written to Jews but to Christians. I'll prove that at the end of this post.

    Since you think the great trib was Ad70, can you explain why these verses did not happen immediately after?

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    ************************

    Who is persecuted in the great Tribulation? Jews or Christians?

    The olivet discourse (Matthew):

    Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    False Christ's are warned about.

    Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

    These are Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name! This proves that Christ is talking about Christians when he says "you".

    Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


    The gospel of the kingdom is about Christ and is delivered by Christians.


    Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

    "Ye" are Christians.
    So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

    Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

    "Ye" is still the same people, Christians.


    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    The elect are Christians not Jews per the context of this passage.

    Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

    Again, a warning about false Christs given to "you" which are Christians.

    Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


    Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
    Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.

    Nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


    Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    And here is the second coming. Again, nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


    Mark:

    Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
    Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
    Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    Mar 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
    Mar 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
    Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.


    In the GT Christians will be beaten in Jewish synagogues simply because Christians are the ones being persecuted not the Jews.


    AD 70 subject?? Hardly! None of it is about AD 70 and the Roman's punishing the Jews....literally nothing.




    The olivet discourse (Mark):

    Mar 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
    Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
    Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

    He is talking to his Christian disciples.

    Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    This is the false Christ that Christians are warned about.

    Mar 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
    Mar 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
    Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

    "for my sake" means the reason they are delivered to councils and beaten in Jewish synagogues is because they are Christians! This is not about Jewish persecution or punishment at all.

    Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

    That's the Christian gospel of Christ not a Jewish gospel.


    Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

    "you" here is still the same people he is talking about, Christians.

    Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
    Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    Here iit is again. Those that carry the name of Christ, Christians, will be the ones persecuted.


    Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
    Mar 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
    Mar 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
    Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    Mar 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
    Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
    Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

    The elect here are the same people in the entire OD, Christians!


    Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

    Again Christians are being warned about the false Christ.


    Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

    Same Christian elect here as well.


    Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
    Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
    Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
    Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
    Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    And here is the second coming of the Christian Messiah and the rapturing/gathering.


    Mar 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
    Mar 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
    Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
    Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
    Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
    Mar 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
    Mar 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
    Mar 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
    Mar 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

    Never once does the subject change from Christian persecution to anything about the Jews being targeted for persecution or punishment. The OD is fully and completely about Christian persecution and AD70 was only about the Jews rebelling against the Roman's and being defeated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Matthew, writing to Jews, doesn't bother with the "armies" part but alludes to Daniel instead.
    Matthew wrote to Christians not Jews. Nothing in Matthew 24 is written to Jews but to Christians. I'll prove that at the end of this post.

    Since you think the great trib was Ad70, can you explain why these verses did not happen immediately after?

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    ************************

    Who is persecuted in the great Tribulation? Jews or Christians?

    The olivet discourse (Matthew):

    Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    False Christ's are warned about.

    Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

    These are Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name! This proves that Christ is talking about Christians when he says "you".

    Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


    The gospel of the kingdom is about Christ and is delivered by Christians.


    Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

    "Ye" are Christians.
    So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

    Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

    "Ye" is still the same people, Christians.


    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    The elect are Christians not Jews per the context of this passage.

    Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

    Again, a warning about false Christs given to "you" which are Christians.

    Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


    Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
    Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.

    Nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


    Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    And here is the second coming. Again, nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


    Mark:

    Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
    Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
    Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    Mar 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
    Mar 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
    Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.


    In the GT Christians will be beaten in Jewish synagogues simply because Christians are the ones being persecuted not the Jews.


    AD 70 subject?? Hardly! None of it is about AD 70 and the Roman's punishing the Jews....literally nothing.




    The olivet discourse (Mark):

    Mar 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
    Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
    Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

    He is talking to his Christian disciples.

    Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    This is the false Christ that Christians are warned about.

    Mar 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
    Mar 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
    Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

    "for my sake" means the reason they are delivered to councils and beaten in Jewish synagogues is because they are Christians! This is not about Jewish persecution or punishment at all.

    Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

    That's the Christian gospel of Christ not a Jewish gospel.


    Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

    "you" here is still the same people he is talking about, Christians.

    Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
    Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    Here iit is again. Those that carry the name of Christ, Christians, will be the ones persecuted.


    Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
    Mar 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
    Mar 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
    Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    Mar 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
    Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
    Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

    The elect here are the same people in the entire OD, Christians!


    Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

    Again Christians are being warned about the false Christ.


    Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

    Same Christian elect here as well.


    Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
    Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
    Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
    Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
    Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    And here is the second coming of the Christian Messiah and the rapturing/gathering.


    Mar 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
    Mar 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
    Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
    Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
    Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
    Mar 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
    Mar 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
    Mar 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
    Mar 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

    Never once does the subject change from Christian persecution to anything about the Jews being targeted for persecution or punishment. The OD is fully and completely about Christian persecution and AD70 was only about the Jews rebelling against the Roman's and being defeated.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    There are two (3) questions the apostles asked.... 1. When will these things happen? (The destruction of the temple, etc.) and 2) When will the end of the age be and your coming?

    Matt 24:1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
    3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

    IMO, The end of the age is at the final coming of Christ. But 70AD is when the Jews great tribulation occurred and the temple was destroyed. Of course, I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me Jesus was answering both questions.

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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    There are two questions the apostles asked.... 1. When will these things happen? (The destruction of the temple, etc.) and 2) When will the end of the age be.

    Matt 24:1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
    3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

    The end of the age is at the final coming of Christ. But 70AD is when the Jews great tribulation occurred and the temple was destroyed.
    Except Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation he described in the OD.

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Except Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation he described in the OD.

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    Yet, Jesus was also prophesying about the destruction of the temple, which did happen in 70ad.

    Matt 24:1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

    He wasn't speaking about a yet to be built temple, but the temple buildings that were being pointed out to Him.

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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Yet, Jesus was also prophesying about the destruction of the temple, which did happen in 70ad.
    That prophecy was spoken before getting to the Mount and is not p[art of the OD.


    You believe the tribulation happened in Ad70 but Jesus said IMMEDIATELY after the trib he would return. That didn't happen in Ad70 thus Ad70 was not the GT Jesus spoke of in the OD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Yet, Jesus was also prophesying about the destruction of the temple, which did happen in 70ad.
    That prophecy was spoken before getting to the Mount and is not p[art of the OD.


    You believe the tribulation happened in Ad70 but Jesus said IMMEDIATELY after the trib he would return. That didn't happen in Ad70 thus Ad70 was not the GT Jesus spoke of in the OD.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark

    IMO, The end of the age is at the final coming of Christ. But 70AD is when the Jews great tribulation occurred and the temple was destroyed. Of course, I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me Jesus was answering both questions.
    I think you are quite right. That is why I maintain that Part-Pret's need to see AD 70 as an initial fulfillment, but precursing a greater fulfillment yet to come. It brings the entire Olivet discourse into focus.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Not about being 'scared'. Are you scared of dispensationalism? Scared is the wrong term brother.
    Hey brother...great questions and perspectives. I will try my best to reply with my current understanding.
    This is going to a very abridged reply, unfortunately, as I seem to have lost the original; the bugs on BF seem to be still alive & well...

    Not the wrong word bro....what I meant was, specifically, many Christians today have forgotten/do not know/avoid that (PP) is one of the oldest views in existence. Many are unaware of the issues at play. Many don't even understand our position..., yet they attack it..... heck, I've been researching this for a long time and still only have a basic grasp of the issues.... dispensationalism has taken over in the West, so this is to expected I guess...

    How long does it take to lose the Truth? One generation.

    The Reformed and Puritan theologians believed it (PP) hundreds of years ago and it became the standard eschatological position to have.....until Darby and the Scofield reference "Bible" came along and poisoned minds with bad theology and hermeneutics which has permeated and affected the entire Bible-believing Church today, especially in the West. Even unbelievers en mass think dispensationalism is the Truth! ( ask anyone if they think the "antichrist" will come in the near future )

    Not so much in other regions of the earth, they know...South Africa comes to mind.

    Someone of the stature of JOHN OWENS in 1670 AD believed this wholeheartedly and other Reformed and Puritan theologians like Jonathon Edwards, Charles Hodge, BB Warfield, John Brown and a host of other great Reformed theologians followed PP...as its one of the oldest positions, ( Many would correctly argue the view originated in the NT ) As a point of interest, but not surprisingly, this fact has been recently removed from wiki.. it was there 6 months ago..... Modern day Christians, R.C. Sproul & Son) also see it as Truth.

    If you care about truth (and you do), then preterism should be rejected as strongly, or IMO, more strongly than dispensationalism. (IMO, there are severe problems with both, but a stronger problem with full preterism).
    I do care about Truth as I can tell you do. I am interested in these supposed problems you speak of. I am quite confident that PP is not perfect, but it's sure closer to the Truth than some.

    2 Timothy 2:16 But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness, 17 and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have deviated from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.
    Investigating, researching all eschatological positions is fruitful and worth doing when searching for Truth. How else could one do it? I have been investigating Preterism for several years now, and its a big subject, pregnant with detail; hardly empty chatter, irreverent or promoting "ungodliness".

    Saying the resurrection has already occurred undermines the faith of some. The same cannot be said of dispensationalism. Nor can it be said of PP. But it can be said of preterism.
    With further investigation over the last few days.... PP and FP are very far apart on some key issues. Yet the have common cross-overs ....but yet are still significantly different. Partial preterism believes in a FUTURE Second Coming, a future resurrection, a future final judgment and a future eternal state in heaven or hell. They are "absolutely orthodox!"

    PP recognizes that the "destruction eschatological passages" relate to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. This is also an orthodox position to have. They see the fulfillment of the judgments of Revelation as having occurred in 70 AD. This is also an orthodox position to have.

    FULL Preterists believe the resurrection happened in 70 AD. Partial preterists believe, as everyone else, does that it happens at the future Second Coming of Christ.

    However, they (FP) believe that the Old Testament saints were resurrected in 70 AD, not everyone. The Old Testament saints, they would say, could not go to Heaven UNTIL the Old Covenant for the Jews was literally and physically finished, which technically was not until 70 AD.

    They would say that for everyone since 70 AD, every resurrection is an individual one, that is, when you die you individually get resurrected to Heaven, stand before God in individual judgment, and then stay there for eternity. So they believe in an individual resurrection, not a corporate resurrection.

    It has a lot of good points and I cannot argue with it, except that it does not fit our current paradigm. But I cannot argue with the concept of it though. I can see where they get it in 1 Thess. 4: 15-17 for sure!

    Everybody else believes in a one-time future resurrection.

    Hope this explains more brother....dialog is good!

    "Come let us reason together!"
    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Matthew wrote to Christians not Jews.
    The first Christians were Jews.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    The first Christians were Jews.
    I'm talking religion not race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    The first Christians were Jews.
    I'm talking religion not race.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  13. #43
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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    Hey brother...great questions and perspectives. I will try my best to reply with my current understanding.
    This is going to a very abridged reply, unfortunately, as I seem to have lost the original; the bugs on BF seem to be still alive & well...

    Not the wrong word bro....what I meant was, specifically, many Christians today have forgotten/do not know/avoid that (PP) is one of the oldest views in existence. Many are unaware of the issues at play. Many don't even understand our position..., yet they attack it..... heck, I've been researching this for a long time and still only have a basic grasp of the issues.... dispensationalism has taken over in the West, so this is to expected I guess...

    How long does it take to lose the Truth? One generation.

    The Reformed and Puritan theologians believed it (PP) hundreds of years ago and it became the standard eschatological position to have.....until Darby and the Scofield reference "Bible" came along and poisoned minds with bad theology and hermeneutics which has permeated and affected the entire Bible-believing Church today, especially in the West. Even unbelievers en mass think dispensationalism is the Truth! ( ask anyone if they think the "antichrist" will come in the near future )

    Not so much in other regions of the earth, they know...South Africa comes to mind.

    Someone of the stature of JOHN OWENS in 1670 AD believed this wholeheartedly and other Reformed and Puritan theologians like Jonathon Edwards, Charles Hodge, BB Warfield, John Brown and a host of other great Reformed theologians followed PP...as its one of the oldest positions, ( Many would correctly argue the view originated in the NT ) As a point of interest, but not surprisingly, this fact has been recently removed from wiki.. it was there 6 months ago..... Modern day Christians, R.C. Sproul & Son) also see it as Truth.



    I do care about Truth as I can tell you do. I am interested in these supposed problems you speak of. I am quite confident that PP is not perfect, but it's sure closer to the Truth than some.
    You answered PP rather than FP. My point was made towards FP. No one is scared of FP but it is recognized as heresy by most protestants today, and I think rightly so. Preaching the resurrection has already occurred and that Jesus has already returned doesn't fit with the scriptures IMO.

    And I do think scared is still the wrong term. I asked if you were scared of dispensationalism? I don't think you are and I think it is a wrong term to suggest others are scared of PP. I think both PP and dispensationalism are massive ditches that we should warn others against. Not because we are afraid of it, but because we see it as destructive to those who are not yet trained in the word.

    Investigating, researching all eschatological positions is fruitful and worth doing when searching for Truth. How else could one do it? I have been investigating Preterism for several years now, and its a big subject, pregnant with detail; hardly empty chatter, irreverent or promoting "ungodliness".
    But it does promote the ressurection has occurred and that is something that Paul warned us against.

    With further investigation over the last few days.... PP and FP are very far apart on some key issues. Yet the have common cross-overs ....but yet are still significantly different. Partial preterism believes in a FUTURE Second Coming, a future resurrection, a future final judgment and a future eternal state in heaven or hell. They are "absolutely orthodox!"

    PP recognizes that the "destruction eschatological passages" relate to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. This is also an orthodox position to have. They see the fulfillment of the judgments of Revelation as having occurred in 70 AD. This is also an orthodox position to have.

    FULL Preterists believe the resurrection happened in 70 AD. Partial preterists believe, as everyone else, does that it happens at the future Second Coming of Christ.

    Which is why PP is considered orthdox and FP is considered heresy.


    However, they (FP) believe that the Old Testament saints were resurrected in 70 AD, not everyone. The Old Testament saints, they would say, could not go to Heaven UNTIL the Old Covenant for the Jews was literally and physically finished, which technically was not until 70 AD.

    They would say that for everyone since 70 AD, every resurrection is an individual one, that is, when you die you individually get resurrected to Heaven, stand before God in individual judgment, and then stay there for eternity. So they believe in an individual resurrection, not a corporate resurrection.

    It has a lot of good points and I cannot argue with it, except that it does not fit our current paradigm. But I cannot argue with the concept of it though. I can see where they get it in 1 Thess. 4: 15-17 for sure!

    Everybody else believes in a one-time future resurrection.

    Hope this explains more brother....dialog is good!

    "Come let us reason together!"
    It does. I understand why FP is not allowed on the board and we need to follow the rules of the board concerning it. But PP makes some valid points as does FP. FP just seems to go too far in some things and those things are not scary, but they are considered heresy.

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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That prophecy was spoken before getting to the Mount and is not p[art of the OD.
    No, Jesus prophesied about the destruction of the temple before the OD. But the disciples asked about the destruction of the temple on the mount.

    Matt 24:1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
    3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

    Vs. 1 and 2 before the arrival at the mount.

    Vs. 3, on the mount when the disciples asked the 2 (3) questions. 1. When will these things happen? These things refer back to the "these things" being torn down in vs 2. The next 2 questions are really 1 question with 2 parts and is in vs 3 "and what will be the sign of Your coming and the end of the age".

    Jesus answered both of these questions in the OD since they were about 2 separate events. The destruction of the temple he prophesied in vs 2 and was asked about in vs 3. Then His coming again and the end in vs 3.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Someone above has said there are "problems with partial preterism." I don't understand. What are the problems? The exegesis of the Scriptures and by comparing Scripture with Scripture (and NOT using a "hard, wooden consistent literalism") has directed many great theologians that are Reformed and Puritan and the like, to come to conclude partial preterism is true. And after an almost 4 decade study of the Scriptures, I completely concur.

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