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Thread: Question for partial preterist

  1. #46
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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    Someone above has said there are "problems with partial preterism." I don't understand. What are the problems? The exegesis of the Scriptures and by comparing Scripture with Scripture (and NOT using a "hard, wooden consistent literalism") has directed many great theologians that are Reformed and Puritan and the like, to come to conclude partial preterism is true. And after an almost 4 decade study of the Scriptures, I completely concur.
    Nicely said.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    As a partial preterist, how do you interpret this passage?

    Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

    Also, how do you interpret this passage in light of WW2?

    Matt 24:20 "But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath; 21 for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.

    Not looking to argue but instead, more interested in answers. I can see why some are partial preterist, and have been investigating it. But these verses are difficult for me to see how they fit into the partial preterist theology.

    Thanks!
    Hi brother Mark did you see my report in post #18?

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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    Someone above has said there are "problems with partial preterism." I don't understand. What are the problems?
    The main problem is PP believes ad70 was the great tribulation Christ spoke of in the Olivet Discourse but Christ also said he would return immediately after that tribulation and he didn't in Ad70 or ever since so we know without a doubt the great trib he spoke of has never occurred in the past. He also said one generation would see all the events including the second coming so PP is automatically incorrect based on those things.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I'm talking religion not race.
    Okay. I wasn't.

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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    By comparing Scripture with Scripture and through the historical records we have from men like Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius, all the events leading up to Matthew 24, verses 29-31 can be demonstrated to have occurred in the generation that Jesus was living in between 30-70 AD. Clearly Jesus said in verse 34 that “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

    The language used by Jesus in verse 29 is not the first time that they it has been used in Scripture. Jesus is actually quoting in this verse numerous Old Testament passages and has pieced them together in this one verse. In each case, the Old Testament quote was from an Old Testament prophet that was prophesying the destruction of an ancient empire, civilization, country or people because of God’s impending judgement upon them. These nations doomed to destruction included Babylon, Edom, Egypt, Israel, etc. etc.

    In regards to the destruction of Babylon, Isaiah says “For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises, And the moon will not shed its light.” (Isaiah 13: 10)

    In regards to Egypt, Ezekiel says “And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud. And the moon will not give its light.
    All the shining lights in the heavens. I will darken over you. And will set darkness on your land, declares the Lord God.” (Ezekiel 32: 6-7)

    In regards to Zion, Joel says “Before them the earth quakes, The heavens tremble,
    The sun and the moon grow dark, and the stars lose their brightness.” And “The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.” And “The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.” (Joel 2: 10 & 31, Joel 3: 15)

    In regards to Israel’s captivity, Amos says “It will come about in that day,” declares the Lord GOD, That I will make the sun go down at noon, And make the earth dark in broad daylight.”
    (Amos 8: 9)

    Regarding God’s judgment on Jerusalem, Zephaniah says “That day will be a day of wrath—
    a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness.” (Zephaniah 1: 15)

    *****So to the hearers of Jesus message who were very familiar with the Old Testament Scriptures, they would have recognized that using the judgement language of the Old Covenant to apply to the present state of affairs in 1st century Israel. Truly all these things would take place in that generation!

    So if the Old testament prophets were using symbolic judgment language and apocalyptic imagery to describe the downfall of ancient civilizations and these things did not happen literally, then we have every reason to believe and have every licence to believe that Jesus was speaking in the same way regarding 1st century Israel.

    In Old testament language, “sun, moon and stars” are often used as metaphors and symbols of the political powers and kings and governors and the whole political systems that rule apostate and evil nations who were at enmity with Israel. Sometimes it was Israel itself that was being described, such as the Joel Amos and Zephaniah passages above.

    Since the sun, moon and stars still exist today and have gone super nova and are still in their places, we can be assured that these figures of speech are just that: metaphors that met to be interpreted in a non-literal sense. This is what apocalyptic language and imagery are. It is foolish to interpret them in a wooden literal sense. Egypt, for example, still has the sun, moon and stars shining upon it today and they have not yet disappeared, such as it is.

    Verse 30
    “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.”

    This verse is frequently misinterpreted to mean a literal, visible, futuristic Second Coming of the Lord Jesus in our future. It is frequently misinterpreted because
    1. Most of us do not know the Old Testament very well
    2. Dispensationalists & futurists are constrained by their hermeneutic called Consistent Literalism.
    There are several passages in Matthew and the Gospels where Jesus refers to himself as the “Son of Man.” That may not mean much to many of us today, but to the hearers of it, His Disciples knew exactly who He was talking about. The “Son of Man” originates in Daniel 7: 13-14.

    Daniel says in Chapter 7: 13-14:
    “13. “I kept looking in the night visions,
    And behold, with the clouds of heaven
    One like a Son of Man was coming,
    And He came up to the Ancient of Days
    And was presented before Him.

    14“And to Him was given dominion,
    Glory and a kingdom,
    That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
    Might serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion
    Which will not pass away;
    And His kingdom is one
    Which will not be destroyed.”

    This is clearly a reference to Jesus Christ and His ascension described in Acts 1. The Son of Man was coming – coming UP to the Father – NOT coming to earth. It is this type of coming that Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24: 30.

    There is nothing in passage that says Jesus is returning at His Second Coming. It says they will see the "SIGN" of the Son of man; it does NOT say they will see the actual Son of man literally in the sky.

    However, the ascension of Christ occurred in 33 AD, not 70 AD, so why the description of it here? The “Coming of the Son of Man” is not a description of an actual historical event that happened in 70 AD but Jesus was using strong and expressive language and imagery from Daniel 7 to depict His eventual Vindication in 70 AD. Jesus was to be vindicated over his enemies and in this case, his enemies were the very people He came to represent and save, but most rejected Him, except the Remnant of Israel. In 70 AD they were to see the reality and truth of the Words He spoke to them a generation previously. They would see that He was who He said He was and that he was going to where He said he was going, to the right Hand of the Father.

    Notice that this verse does not say that the tribes will see the visible, literal bodily Coming Jesus Christ Coming to the earth. It says they will see the “SIGN” of the Son of Man in heaven. They will see the Sign, not the actual Son! The location of that Sign is in heaven, not earth.

    in Matthew 26: 63 Jesus told the the High pries Caiaphas: " And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”"

    How could the High Priest see Jesus at his future Second coming? He has been dead for almost 2000 years? But he did live to see the vindication of Christ. Again, another first century fulfillment!

    The witnesses of the Son of Man coming (up) on the clouds of heaven would be “all the tribes of the land.” They would acknowledge his vindication with mourning, not with joy or faith. This is corroborated by Zechariah 12: 10. Yes, in 70 AD they knew they had “been caught” and there was no way of escape! Jesus was right all along. If only they had listened to Him and taken Him seriously and accepted Him by faith as the Messiah of Israel! All the tribes of the land were still in existence in 70 AD and the records of genealogy of the tribes were destroyed forever by the Romans. No one since can claim they have any idea what tribe they are from, which furthermore adds to the fulfillment being in the first century.

    With power and great glory, Jesus went up to the Father to receive the Kingdom, one which will never be destroyed, in fulfillment of Daniel 7: 13-14.

    Jesus, being the Son of Man of Daniel 7: 13-14, which was clearly recognized by the high Priest for he states Jesus deserved death for the blasphemy for this statement, He went UP to the Father in the clouds of Heaven. He did not come back to earth in Matthew 24: 29-31 and the passage never said he would.

    It is misreading, resulting in a mis-interpretation of Matthew 24: 29-31, to say that Jesus returned at His Second Coming. It is NOT a Second Coming passage nor it is meant to be. They are located elsewhere in Scripture.

    Matthew 24: 30 is not a description of the future Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Everything described was all fulfilled by 70 AD.

    Jesus said: " Truly I say to you, THIS generation will not pass away until all these things take place." He was correct, of course. All things described in Mathew 24 came to pass in the first century.

    As well, an understanding of the events which happened in Israel form 66-70 AD would help to understand the historical context and Scriptural fulfillment of Matthew 24. most Christians have no clue what happened in those years and make excuses not to care about it. When one comes to understand the Rebellion that took place and the apostasy that took place in Jerusalem and Israel, the dissolution of the Jewish people, etc. one can see that a REAL holocaust took place when over 1 million Jews died a the few survivors were taken into captivity, just as Jesus said in Luke 21: 20-24. It truly was a great Tribulation.

  6. #51
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    Cool Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    Clearly Jesus said in verse 34 that “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

    Jeesh, you PPs sure can present walls of text explaining your scriptures in error. The statement of "this generation" is completely within the parable of the fig tree. Come on, get with the program or sit down.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by DJohnson

    In Old testament language, “sun, moon and stars” are often used as metaphors and symbols of the political powers and kings and governors and the whole political systems that rule apostate and evil nations who were at enmity with Israel. Sometimes it was Israel itself that was being described, such as the Joel Amos and Zephaniah passages above.
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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    By comparing Scripture with Scripture and through the historical records we have from men like Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius, all the events leading up to Matthew 24, verses 29-31 can be demonstrated to have occurred in the generation that Jesus was living in between 30-70 AD. Clearly Jesus said in verse 34 that “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

    The language used by Jesus in verse 29 is not the first time that they it has been used in Scripture. Jesus is actually quoting in this verse numerous Old Testament passages and has pieced them together in this one verse. In each case, the Old Testament quote was from an Old Testament prophet that was prophesying the destruction of an ancient empire, civilization, country or people because of God’s impending judgement upon them. These nations doomed to destruction included Babylon, Edom, Egypt, Israel, etc. etc.

    In regards to the destruction of Babylon, Isaiah says “For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises, And the moon will not shed its light.” (Isaiah 13: 10)

    In regards to Egypt, Ezekiel says “And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud. And the moon will not give its light.
    All the shining lights in the heavens. I will darken over you. And will set darkness on your land, declares the Lord God.” (Ezekiel 32: 6-7)

    In regards to Zion, Joel says “Before them the earth quakes, The heavens tremble,
    The sun and the moon grow dark, and the stars lose their brightness.” And “The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.” And “The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.” (Joel 2: 10 & 31, Joel 3: 15)

    In regards to Israel’s captivity, Amos says “It will come about in that day,” declares the Lord GOD, That I will make the sun go down at noon, And make the earth dark in broad daylight.”
    (Amos 8: 9)

    Regarding God’s judgment on Jerusalem, Zephaniah says “That day will be a day of wrath—
    a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness.” (Zephaniah 1: 15)

    *****So to the hearers of Jesus message who were very familiar with the Old Testament Scriptures, they would have recognized that using the judgement language of the Old Covenant to apply to the present state of affairs in 1st century Israel. Truly all these things would take place in that generation!

    So if the Old testament prophets were using symbolic judgment language and apocalyptic imagery to describe the downfall of ancient civilizations and these things did not happen literally, then we have every reason to believe and have every licence to believe that Jesus was speaking in the same way regarding 1st century Israel.

    In Old testament language, “sun, moon and stars” are often used as metaphors and symbols of the political powers and kings and governors and the whole political systems that rule apostate and evil nations who were at enmity with Israel. Sometimes it was Israel itself that was being described, such as the Joel Amos and Zephaniah passages above.

    Since the sun, moon and stars still exist today and have gone super nova and are still in their places, we can be assured that these figures of speech are just that: metaphors that met to be interpreted in a non-literal sense. This is what apocalyptic language and imagery are. It is foolish to interpret them in a wooden literal sense. Egypt, for example, still has the sun, moon and stars shining upon it today and they have not yet disappeared, such as it is.

    Verse 30
    “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.”

    This verse is frequently misinterpreted to mean a literal, visible, futuristic Second Coming of the Lord Jesus in our future. It is frequently misinterpreted because
    1. Most of us do not know the Old Testament very well
    2. Dispensationalists & futurists are constrained by their hermeneutic called Consistent Literalism.
    There are several passages in Matthew and the Gospels where Jesus refers to himself as the “Son of Man.” That may not mean much to many of us today, but to the hearers of it, His Disciples knew exactly who He was talking about. The “Son of Man” originates in Daniel 7: 13-14.

    Daniel says in Chapter 7: 13-14:
    “13. “I kept looking in the night visions,
    And behold, with the clouds of heaven
    One like a Son of Man was coming,
    And He came up to the Ancient of Days
    And was presented before Him.

    14“And to Him was given dominion,
    Glory and a kingdom,
    That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
    Might serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion
    Which will not pass away;
    And His kingdom is one
    Which will not be destroyed.”

    This is clearly a reference to Jesus Christ and His ascension described in Acts 1. The Son of Man was coming – coming UP to the Father – NOT coming to earth. It is this type of coming that Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24: 30.

    There is nothing in passage that says Jesus is returning at His Second Coming. It says they will see the "SIGN" of the Son of man; it does NOT say they will see the actual Son of man literally in the sky.

    However, the ascension of Christ occurred in 33 AD, not 70 AD, so why the description of it here? The “Coming of the Son of Man” is not a description of an actual historical event that happened in 70 AD but Jesus was using strong and expressive language and imagery from Daniel 7 to depict His eventual Vindication in 70 AD. Jesus was to be vindicated over his enemies and in this case, his enemies were the very people He came to represent and save, but most rejected Him, except the Remnant of Israel. In 70 AD they were to see the reality and truth of the Words He spoke to them a generation previously. They would see that He was who He said He was and that he was going to where He said he was going, to the right Hand of the Father.

    Notice that this verse does not say that the tribes will see the visible, literal bodily Coming Jesus Christ Coming to the earth. It says they will see the “SIGN” of the Son of Man in heaven. They will see the Sign, not the actual Son! The location of that Sign is in heaven, not earth.

    in Matthew 26: 63 Jesus told the the High pries Caiaphas: " And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”"

    How could the High Priest see Jesus at his future Second coming? He has been dead for almost 2000 years? But he did live to see the vindication of Christ. Again, another first century fulfillment!

    The witnesses of the Son of Man coming (up) on the clouds of heaven would be “all the tribes of the land.” They would acknowledge his vindication with mourning, not with joy or faith. This is corroborated by Zechariah 12: 10. Yes, in 70 AD they knew they had “been caught” and there was no way of escape! Jesus was right all along. If only they had listened to Him and taken Him seriously and accepted Him by faith as the Messiah of Israel! All the tribes of the land were still in existence in 70 AD and the records of genealogy of the tribes were destroyed forever by the Romans. No one since can claim they have any idea what tribe they are from, which furthermore adds to the fulfillment being in the first century.

    With power and great glory, Jesus went up to the Father to receive the Kingdom, one which will never be destroyed, in fulfillment of Daniel 7: 13-14.

    Jesus, being the Son of Man of Daniel 7: 13-14, which was clearly recognized by the high Priest for he states Jesus deserved death for the blasphemy for this statement, He went UP to the Father in the clouds of Heaven. He did not come back to earth in Matthew 24: 29-31 and the passage never said he would.

    It is misreading, resulting in a mis-interpretation of Matthew 24: 29-31, to say that Jesus returned at His Second Coming. It is NOT a Second Coming passage nor it is meant to be. They are located elsewhere in Scripture.

    Matthew 24: 30 is not a description of the future Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Everything described was all fulfilled by 70 AD.

    Jesus said: " Truly I say to you, THIS generation will not pass away until all these things take place." He was correct, of course. All things described in Mathew 24 came to pass in the first century.

    As well, an understanding of the events which happened in Israel form 66-70 AD would help to understand the historical context and Scriptural fulfillment of Matthew 24. most Christians have no clue what happened in those years and make excuses not to care about it. When one comes to understand the Rebellion that took place and the apostasy that took place in Jerusalem and Israel, the dissolution of the Jewish people, etc. one can see that a REAL holocaust took place when over 1 million Jews died a the few survivors were taken into captivity, just as Jesus said in Luke 21: 20-24. It truly was a great Tribulation.
    Great post Doug I also have a study saying the same thing

    To add to it peter refers to Joel chapter 2 in acts chapter 2 saying that he was living in those days

    Quote Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    By comparing Scripture with Scripture and through the historical records we have from men like Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius, all the events leading up to Matthew 24, verses 29-31 can be demonstrated to have occurred in the generation that Jesus was living in between 30-70 AD. Clearly Jesus said in verse 34 that “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

    The language used by Jesus in verse 29 is not the first time that they it has been used in Scripture. Jesus is actually quoting in this verse numerous Old Testament passages and has pieced them together in this one verse. In each case, the Old Testament quote was from an Old Testament prophet that was prophesying the destruction of an ancient empire, civilization, country or people because of God’s impending judgement upon them. These nations doomed to destruction included Babylon, Edom, Egypt, Israel, etc. etc.

    In regards to the destruction of Babylon, Isaiah says “For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises, And the moon will not shed its light.” (Isaiah 13: 10)

    In regards to Egypt, Ezekiel says “And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud. And the moon will not give its light.
    All the shining lights in the heavens. I will darken over you. And will set darkness on your land, declares the Lord God.” (Ezekiel 32: 6-7)

    In regards to Zion, Joel says “Before them the earth quakes, The heavens tremble,
    The sun and the moon grow dark, and the stars lose their brightness.” And “The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.” And “The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.” (Joel 2: 10 & 31, Joel 3: 15)

    In regards to Israel’s captivity, Amos says “It will come about in that day,” declares the Lord GOD, That I will make the sun go down at noon, And make the earth dark in broad daylight.”
    (Amos 8: 9)

    Regarding God’s judgment on Jerusalem, Zephaniah says “That day will be a day of wrath—
    a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness.” (Zephaniah 1: 15)

    *****So to the hearers of Jesus message who were very familiar with the Old Testament Scriptures, they would have recognized that using the judgement language of the Old Covenant to apply to the present state of affairs in 1st century Israel. Truly all these things would take place in that generation!

    So if the Old testament prophets were using symbolic judgment language and apocalyptic imagery to describe the downfall of ancient civilizations and these things did not happen literally, then we have every reason to believe and have every licence to believe that Jesus was speaking in the same way regarding 1st century Israel.

    In Old testament language, “sun, moon and stars” are often used as metaphors and symbols of the political powers and kings and governors and the whole political systems that rule apostate and evil nations who were at enmity with Israel. Sometimes it was Israel itself that was being described, such as the Joel Amos and Zephaniah passages above.

    Since the sun, moon and stars still exist today and have gone super nova and are still in their places, we can be assured that these figures of speech are just that: metaphors that met to be interpreted in a non-literal sense. This is what apocalyptic language and imagery are. It is foolish to interpret them in a wooden literal sense. Egypt, for example, still has the sun, moon and stars shining upon it today and they have not yet disappeared, such as it is.

    Verse 30
    “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.”

    This verse is frequently misinterpreted to mean a literal, visible, futuristic Second Coming of the Lord Jesus in our future. It is frequently misinterpreted because
    1. Most of us do not know the Old Testament very well
    2. Dispensationalists & futurists are constrained by their hermeneutic called Consistent Literalism.
    There are several passages in Matthew and the Gospels where Jesus refers to himself as the “Son of Man.” That may not mean much to many of us today, but to the hearers of it, His Disciples knew exactly who He was talking about. The “Son of Man” originates in Daniel 7: 13-14.

    Daniel says in Chapter 7: 13-14:
    “13. “I kept looking in the night visions,
    And behold, with the clouds of heaven
    One like a Son of Man was coming,
    And He came up to the Ancient of Days
    And was presented before Him.

    14“And to Him was given dominion,
    Glory and a kingdom,
    That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
    Might serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion
    Which will not pass away;
    And His kingdom is one
    Which will not be destroyed.”

    This is clearly a reference to Jesus Christ and His ascension described in Acts 1. The Son of Man was coming – coming UP to the Father – NOT coming to earth. It is this type of coming that Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24: 30.

    There is nothing in passage that says Jesus is returning at His Second Coming. It says they will see the "SIGN" of the Son of man; it does NOT say they will see the actual Son of man literally in the sky.

    However, the ascension of Christ occurred in 33 AD, not 70 AD, so why the description of it here? The “Coming of the Son of Man” is not a description of an actual historical event that happened in 70 AD but Jesus was using strong and expressive language and imagery from Daniel 7 to depict His eventual Vindication in 70 AD. Jesus was to be vindicated over his enemies and in this case, his enemies were the very people He came to represent and save, but most rejected Him, except the Remnant of Israel. In 70 AD they were to see the reality and truth of the Words He spoke to them a generation previously. They would see that He was who He said He was and that he was going to where He said he was going, to the right Hand of the Father.

    Notice that this verse does not say that the tribes will see the visible, literal bodily Coming Jesus Christ Coming to the earth. It says they will see the “SIGN” of the Son of Man in heaven. They will see the Sign, not the actual Son! The location of that Sign is in heaven, not earth.

    in Matthew 26: 63 Jesus told the the High pries Caiaphas: " And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”"

    How could the High Priest see Jesus at his future Second coming? He has been dead for almost 2000 years? But he did live to see the vindication of Christ. Again, another first century fulfillment!

    The witnesses of the Son of Man coming (up) on the clouds of heaven would be “all the tribes of the land.” They would acknowledge his vindication with mourning, not with joy or faith. This is corroborated by Zechariah 12: 10. Yes, in 70 AD they knew they had “been caught” and there was no way of escape! Jesus was right all along. If only they had listened to Him and taken Him seriously and accepted Him by faith as the Messiah of Israel! All the tribes of the land were still in existence in 70 AD and the records of genealogy of the tribes were destroyed forever by the Romans. No one since can claim they have any idea what tribe they are from, which furthermore adds to the fulfillment being in the first century.

    With power and great glory, Jesus went up to the Father to receive the Kingdom, one which will never be destroyed, in fulfillment of Daniel 7: 13-14.

    Jesus, being the Son of Man of Daniel 7: 13-14, which was clearly recognized by the high Priest for he states Jesus deserved death for the blasphemy for this statement, He went UP to the Father in the clouds of Heaven. He did not come back to earth in Matthew 24: 29-31 and the passage never said he would.

    It is misreading, resulting in a mis-interpretation of Matthew 24: 29-31, to say that Jesus returned at His Second Coming. It is NOT a Second Coming passage nor it is meant to be. They are located elsewhere in Scripture.

    Matthew 24: 30 is not a description of the future Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Everything described was all fulfilled by 70 AD.

    Jesus said: " Truly I say to you, THIS generation will not pass away until all these things take place." He was correct, of course. All things described in Mathew 24 came to pass in the first century.

    As well, an understanding of the events which happened in Israel form 66-70 AD would help to understand the historical context and Scriptural fulfillment of Matthew 24. most Christians have no clue what happened in those years and make excuses not to care about it. When one comes to understand the Rebellion that took place and the apostasy that took place in Jerusalem and Israel, the dissolution of the Jewish people, etc. one can see that a REAL holocaust took place when over 1 million Jews died a the few survivors were taken into captivity, just as Jesus said in Luke 21: 20-24. It truly was a great Tribulation.
    Great post Doug I also have a study saying the same thing

    To add to it peter refers to Joel chapter 2 in acts chapter 2 saying that he was living in those days

  9. #54
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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    By comparing Scripture with Scripture and through the historical records we have from men like Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius, all the events leading up to Matthew 24, verses 29-31 can be demonstrated to have occurred in the generation that Jesus was living in between 30-70 AD. Clearly Jesus said in verse 34 that “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

    The language used by Jesus in verse 29 is not the first time that they it has been used in Scripture. Jesus is actually quoting in this verse numerous Old Testament passages and has pieced them together in this one verse. In each case, the Old Testament quote was from an Old Testament prophet that was prophesying the destruction of an ancient empire, civilization, country or people because of God’s impending judgement upon them. These nations doomed to destruction included Babylon, Edom, Egypt, Israel, etc. etc.

    In regards to the destruction of Babylon, Isaiah says “For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises, And the moon will not shed its light.” (Isaiah 13: 10)

    In regards to Egypt, Ezekiel says “And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud. And the moon will not give its light.
    All the shining lights in the heavens. I will darken over you. And will set darkness on your land, declares the Lord God.” (Ezekiel 32: 6-7)

    In regards to Zion, Joel says “Before them the earth quakes, The heavens tremble,
    The sun and the moon grow dark, and the stars lose their brightness.” And “The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.” And “The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.” (Joel 2: 10 & 31, Joel 3: 15)

    In regards to Israel’s captivity, Amos says “It will come about in that day,” declares the Lord GOD, That I will make the sun go down at noon, And make the earth dark in broad daylight.”
    (Amos 8: 9)

    Regarding God’s judgment on Jerusalem, Zephaniah says “That day will be a day of wrath—
    a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness.” (Zephaniah 1: 15)

    *****So to the hearers of Jesus message who were very familiar with the Old Testament Scriptures, they would have recognized that using the judgement language of the Old Covenant to apply to the present state of affairs in 1st century Israel. Truly all these things would take place in that generation!

    So if the Old testament prophets were using symbolic judgment language and apocalyptic imagery to describe the downfall of ancient civilizations and these things did not happen literally, then we have every reason to believe and have every licence to believe that Jesus was speaking in the same way regarding 1st century Israel.

    In Old testament language, “sun, moon and stars” are often used as metaphors and symbols of the political powers and kings and governors and the whole political systems that rule apostate and evil nations who were at enmity with Israel. Sometimes it was Israel itself that was being described, such as the Joel Amos and Zephaniah passages above.

    Since the sun, moon and stars still exist today and have gone super nova and are still in their places, we can be assured that these figures of speech are just that: metaphors that met to be interpreted in a non-literal sense. This is what apocalyptic language and imagery are. It is foolish to interpret them in a wooden literal sense. Egypt, for example, still has the sun, moon and stars shining upon it today and they have not yet disappeared, such as it is.

    Verse 30
    “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.”

    This verse is frequently misinterpreted to mean a literal, visible, futuristic Second Coming of the Lord Jesus in our future. It is frequently misinterpreted because
    1. Most of us do not know the Old Testament very well
    2. Dispensationalists & futurists are constrained by their hermeneutic called Consistent Literalism.
    There are several passages in Matthew and the Gospels where Jesus refers to himself as the “Son of Man.” That may not mean much to many of us today, but to the hearers of it, His Disciples knew exactly who He was talking about. The “Son of Man” originates in Daniel 7: 13-14.

    Daniel says in Chapter 7: 13-14:
    “13. “I kept looking in the night visions,
    And behold, with the clouds of heaven
    One like a Son of Man was coming,
    And He came up to the Ancient of Days
    And was presented before Him.

    14“And to Him was given dominion,
    Glory and a kingdom,
    That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
    Might serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion
    Which will not pass away;
    And His kingdom is one
    Which will not be destroyed.”

    This is clearly a reference to Jesus Christ and His ascension described in Acts 1. The Son of Man was coming – coming UP to the Father – NOT coming to earth. It is this type of coming that Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24: 30.

    There is nothing in passage that says Jesus is returning at His Second Coming. It says they will see the "SIGN" of the Son of man; it does NOT say they will see the actual Son of man literally in the sky.

    However, the ascension of Christ occurred in 33 AD, not 70 AD, so why the description of it here? The “Coming of the Son of Man” is not a description of an actual historical event that happened in 70 AD but Jesus was using strong and expressive language and imagery from Daniel 7 to depict His eventual Vindication in 70 AD. Jesus was to be vindicated over his enemies and in this case, his enemies were the very people He came to represent and save, but most rejected Him, except the Remnant of Israel. In 70 AD they were to see the reality and truth of the Words He spoke to them a generation previously. They would see that He was who He said He was and that he was going to where He said he was going, to the right Hand of the Father.

    Notice that this verse does not say that the tribes will see the visible, literal bodily Coming Jesus Christ Coming to the earth. It says they will see the “SIGN” of the Son of Man in heaven. They will see the Sign, not the actual Son! The location of that Sign is in heaven, not earth.

    in Matthew 26: 63 Jesus told the the High pries Caiaphas: " And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”"

    How could the High Priest see Jesus at his future Second coming? He has been dead for almost 2000 years? But he did live to see the vindication of Christ. Again, another first century fulfillment!

    The witnesses of the Son of Man coming (up) on the clouds of heaven would be “all the tribes of the land.” They would acknowledge his vindication with mourning, not with joy or faith. This is corroborated by Zechariah 12: 10. Yes, in 70 AD they knew they had “been caught” and there was no way of escape! Jesus was right all along. If only they had listened to Him and taken Him seriously and accepted Him by faith as the Messiah of Israel! All the tribes of the land were still in existence in 70 AD and the records of genealogy of the tribes were destroyed forever by the Romans. No one since can claim they have any idea what tribe they are from, which furthermore adds to the fulfillment being in the first century.

    With power and great glory, Jesus went up to the Father to receive the Kingdom, one which will never be destroyed, in fulfillment of Daniel 7: 13-14.

    Jesus, being the Son of Man of Daniel 7: 13-14, which was clearly recognized by the high Priest for he states Jesus deserved death for the blasphemy for this statement, He went UP to the Father in the clouds of Heaven. He did not come back to earth in Matthew 24: 29-31 and the passage never said he would.

    It is misreading, resulting in a mis-interpretation of Matthew 24: 29-31, to say that Jesus returned at His Second Coming. It is NOT a Second Coming passage nor it is meant to be. They are located elsewhere in Scripture.

    Matthew 24: 30 is not a description of the future Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Everything described was all fulfilled by 70 AD.

    Jesus said: " Truly I say to you, THIS generation will not pass away until all these things take place." He was correct, of course. All things described in Mathew 24 came to pass in the first century.

    As well, an understanding of the events which happened in Israel form 66-70 AD would help to understand the historical context and Scriptural fulfillment of Matthew 24. most Christians have no clue what happened in those years and make excuses not to care about it. When one comes to understand the Rebellion that took place and the apostasy that took place in Jerusalem and Israel, the dissolution of the Jewish people, etc. one can see that a REAL holocaust took place when over 1 million Jews died a the few survivors were taken into captivity, just as Jesus said in Luke 21: 20-24. It truly was a great Tribulation.
    Thanks for the explanation Doug, that was a great read. That’s how I see it, and it makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    By comparing Scripture with Scripture and through the historical records we have from men like Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius, all the events leading up to Matthew 24, verses 29-31 can be demonstrated to have occurred in the generation that Jesus was living in between 30-70 AD. Clearly Jesus said in verse 34 that “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

    The language used by Jesus in verse 29 is not the first time that they it has been used in Scripture. Jesus is actually quoting in this verse numerous Old Testament passages and has pieced them together in this one verse. In each case, the Old Testament quote was from an Old Testament prophet that was prophesying the destruction of an ancient empire, civilization, country or people because of God’s impending judgement upon them. These nations doomed to destruction included Babylon, Edom, Egypt, Israel, etc. etc.

    In regards to the destruction of Babylon, Isaiah says “For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises, And the moon will not shed its light.” (Isaiah 13: 10)

    In regards to Egypt, Ezekiel says “And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud. And the moon will not give its light.
    All the shining lights in the heavens. I will darken over you. And will set darkness on your land, declares the Lord God.” (Ezekiel 32: 6-7)

    In regards to Zion, Joel says “Before them the earth quakes, The heavens tremble,
    The sun and the moon grow dark, and the stars lose their brightness.” And “The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.” And “The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.” (Joel 2: 10 & 31, Joel 3: 15)

    In regards to Israel’s captivity, Amos says “It will come about in that day,” declares the Lord GOD, That I will make the sun go down at noon, And make the earth dark in broad daylight.”
    (Amos 8: 9)

    Regarding God’s judgment on Jerusalem, Zephaniah says “That day will be a day of wrath—
    a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness.” (Zephaniah 1: 15)

    *****So to the hearers of Jesus message who were very familiar with the Old Testament Scriptures, they would have recognized that using the judgement language of the Old Covenant to apply to the present state of affairs in 1st century Israel. Truly all these things would take place in that generation!

    So if the Old testament prophets were using symbolic judgment language and apocalyptic imagery to describe the downfall of ancient civilizations and these things did not happen literally, then we have every reason to believe and have every licence to believe that Jesus was speaking in the same way regarding 1st century Israel.

    In Old testament language, “sun, moon and stars” are often used as metaphors and symbols of the political powers and kings and governors and the whole political systems that rule apostate and evil nations who were at enmity with Israel. Sometimes it was Israel itself that was being described, such as the Joel Amos and Zephaniah passages above.

    Since the sun, moon and stars still exist today and have gone super nova and are still in their places, we can be assured that these figures of speech are just that: metaphors that met to be interpreted in a non-literal sense. This is what apocalyptic language and imagery are. It is foolish to interpret them in a wooden literal sense. Egypt, for example, still has the sun, moon and stars shining upon it today and they have not yet disappeared, such as it is.

    Verse 30
    “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.”

    This verse is frequently misinterpreted to mean a literal, visible, futuristic Second Coming of the Lord Jesus in our future. It is frequently misinterpreted because
    1. Most of us do not know the Old Testament very well
    2. Dispensationalists & futurists are constrained by their hermeneutic called Consistent Literalism.
    There are several passages in Matthew and the Gospels where Jesus refers to himself as the “Son of Man.” That may not mean much to many of us today, but to the hearers of it, His Disciples knew exactly who He was talking about. The “Son of Man” originates in Daniel 7: 13-14.

    Daniel says in Chapter 7: 13-14:
    “13. “I kept looking in the night visions,
    And behold, with the clouds of heaven
    One like a Son of Man was coming,
    And He came up to the Ancient of Days
    And was presented before Him.

    14“And to Him was given dominion,
    Glory and a kingdom,
    That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
    Might serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion
    Which will not pass away;
    And His kingdom is one
    Which will not be destroyed.”

    This is clearly a reference to Jesus Christ and His ascension described in Acts 1. The Son of Man was coming – coming UP to the Father – NOT coming to earth. It is this type of coming that Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24: 30.

    There is nothing in passage that says Jesus is returning at His Second Coming. It says they will see the "SIGN" of the Son of man; it does NOT say they will see the actual Son of man literally in the sky.

    However, the ascension of Christ occurred in 33 AD, not 70 AD, so why the description of it here? The “Coming of the Son of Man” is not a description of an actual historical event that happened in 70 AD but Jesus was using strong and expressive language and imagery from Daniel 7 to depict His eventual Vindication in 70 AD. Jesus was to be vindicated over his enemies and in this case, his enemies were the very people He came to represent and save, but most rejected Him, except the Remnant of Israel. In 70 AD they were to see the reality and truth of the Words He spoke to them a generation previously. They would see that He was who He said He was and that he was going to where He said he was going, to the right Hand of the Father.

    Notice that this verse does not say that the tribes will see the visible, literal bodily Coming Jesus Christ Coming to the earth. It says they will see the “SIGN” of the Son of Man in heaven. They will see the Sign, not the actual Son! The location of that Sign is in heaven, not earth.

    in Matthew 26: 63 Jesus told the the High pries Caiaphas: " And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”"

    How could the High Priest see Jesus at his future Second coming? He has been dead for almost 2000 years? But he did live to see the vindication of Christ. Again, another first century fulfillment!

    The witnesses of the Son of Man coming (up) on the clouds of heaven would be “all the tribes of the land.” They would acknowledge his vindication with mourning, not with joy or faith. This is corroborated by Zechariah 12: 10. Yes, in 70 AD they knew they had “been caught” and there was no way of escape! Jesus was right all along. If only they had listened to Him and taken Him seriously and accepted Him by faith as the Messiah of Israel! All the tribes of the land were still in existence in 70 AD and the records of genealogy of the tribes were destroyed forever by the Romans. No one since can claim they have any idea what tribe they are from, which furthermore adds to the fulfillment being in the first century.

    With power and great glory, Jesus went up to the Father to receive the Kingdom, one which will never be destroyed, in fulfillment of Daniel 7: 13-14.

    Jesus, being the Son of Man of Daniel 7: 13-14, which was clearly recognized by the high Priest for he states Jesus deserved death for the blasphemy for this statement, He went UP to the Father in the clouds of Heaven. He did not come back to earth in Matthew 24: 29-31 and the passage never said he would.

    It is misreading, resulting in a mis-interpretation of Matthew 24: 29-31, to say that Jesus returned at His Second Coming. It is NOT a Second Coming passage nor it is meant to be. They are located elsewhere in Scripture.

    Matthew 24: 30 is not a description of the future Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Everything described was all fulfilled by 70 AD.

    Jesus said: " Truly I say to you, THIS generation will not pass away until all these things take place." He was correct, of course. All things described in Mathew 24 came to pass in the first century.

    As well, an understanding of the events which happened in Israel form 66-70 AD would help to understand the historical context and Scriptural fulfillment of Matthew 24. most Christians have no clue what happened in those years and make excuses not to care about it. When one comes to understand the Rebellion that took place and the apostasy that took place in Jerusalem and Israel, the dissolution of the Jewish people, etc. one can see that a REAL holocaust took place when over 1 million Jews died a the few survivors were taken into captivity, just as Jesus said in Luke 21: 20-24. It truly was a great Tribulation.
    Thanks for the explanation Doug, that was a great read. That’s how I see it, and it makes sense.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  10. #55
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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post

    Jeesh, you PPs sure can present walls of text explaining your scriptures in error. The statement of "this generation" is completely within the parable of the fig tree. Come on, get with the program or sit down.
    What on earth are you referencing here?
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  11. #56
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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post

    Jeesh, you PPs sure can present walls of text explaining your scriptures in error. The statement of "this generation" is completely within the parable of the fig tree. Come on, get with the program or sit down.
    Jesus used the term this generation to mean this actual generation as he also used the term this generation to mean this actual generation in

    Mt 11:16
    16To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others

    and

    Mt 12:39
    39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

    and
    MT12: 41-42.
    41The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.

    and

    Mt 23:36 .
    36Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

    Why would Jesus confuse them by using the term this generation in Matthew 24 if he meant a different generation as he meant this actual generation in those other verses?

  12. #57
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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Hi brother Mark did you see my report in post #18?
    Yes I did Marty. I sure appreciate your participation in this thread.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  13. #58
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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    By comparing Scripture with Scripture and through the historical records we have from men like Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius, all the events leading up to Matthew 24, verses 29-31 can be demonstrated to have occurred in the generation that Jesus was living in between 30-70 AD. Clearly Jesus said in verse 34 that “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

    The language used by Jesus in verse 29 is not the first time that they it has been used in Scripture. Jesus is actually quoting in this verse numerous Old Testament passages and has pieced them together in this one verse. In each case, the Old Testament quote was from an Old Testament prophet that was prophesying the destruction of an ancient empire, civilization, country or people because of God’s impending judgement upon them. These nations doomed to destruction included Babylon, Edom, Egypt, Israel, etc. etc.

    In regards to the destruction of Babylon, Isaiah says “For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises, And the moon will not shed its light.” (Isaiah 13: 10)

    In regards to Egypt, Ezekiel says “And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud. And the moon will not give its light.
    All the shining lights in the heavens. I will darken over you. And will set darkness on your land, declares the Lord God.” (Ezekiel 32: 6-7)

    In regards to Zion, Joel says “Before them the earth quakes, The heavens tremble,
    The sun and the moon grow dark, and the stars lose their brightness.” And “The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.” And “The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.” (Joel 2: 10 & 31, Joel 3: 15)

    In regards to Israel’s captivity, Amos says “It will come about in that day,” declares the Lord GOD, That I will make the sun go down at noon, And make the earth dark in broad daylight.”
    (Amos 8: 9)

    Regarding God’s judgment on Jerusalem, Zephaniah says “That day will be a day of wrath—
    a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness.” (Zephaniah 1: 15)

    *****So to the hearers of Jesus message who were very familiar with the Old Testament Scriptures, they would have recognized that using the judgement language of the Old Covenant to apply to the present state of affairs in 1st century Israel. Truly all these things would take place in that generation!

    So if the Old testament prophets were using symbolic judgment language and apocalyptic imagery to describe the downfall of ancient civilizations and these things did not happen literally, then we have every reason to believe and have every licence to believe that Jesus was speaking in the same way regarding 1st century Israel.

    In Old testament language, “sun, moon and stars” are often used as metaphors and symbols of the political powers and kings and governors and the whole political systems that rule apostate and evil nations who were at enmity with Israel. Sometimes it was Israel itself that was being described, such as the Joel Amos and Zephaniah passages above.

    Since the sun, moon and stars still exist today and have gone super nova and are still in their places, we can be assured that these figures of speech are just that: metaphors that met to be interpreted in a non-literal sense. This is what apocalyptic language and imagery are. It is foolish to interpret them in a wooden literal sense. Egypt, for example, still has the sun, moon and stars shining upon it today and they have not yet disappeared, such as it is.

    Verse 30
    “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.”

    This verse is frequently misinterpreted to mean a literal, visible, futuristic Second Coming of the Lord Jesus in our future. It is frequently misinterpreted because
    1. Most of us do not know the Old Testament very well
    2. Dispensationalists & futurists are constrained by their hermeneutic called Consistent Literalism.
    There are several passages in Matthew and the Gospels where Jesus refers to himself as the “Son of Man.” That may not mean much to many of us today, but to the hearers of it, His Disciples knew exactly who He was talking about. The “Son of Man” originates in Daniel 7: 13-14.

    Daniel says in Chapter 7: 13-14:
    “13. “I kept looking in the night visions,
    And behold, with the clouds of heaven
    One like a Son of Man was coming,
    And He came up to the Ancient of Days
    And was presented before Him.

    14“And to Him was given dominion,
    Glory and a kingdom,
    That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
    Might serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion
    Which will not pass away;
    And His kingdom is one
    Which will not be destroyed.”

    This is clearly a reference to Jesus Christ and His ascension described in Acts 1. The Son of Man was coming – coming UP to the Father – NOT coming to earth. It is this type of coming that Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24: 30.

    There is nothing in passage that says Jesus is returning at His Second Coming. It says they will see the "SIGN" of the Son of man; it does NOT say they will see the actual Son of man literally in the sky.

    However, the ascension of Christ occurred in 33 AD, not 70 AD, so why the description of it here? The “Coming of the Son of Man” is not a description of an actual historical event that happened in 70 AD but Jesus was using strong and expressive language and imagery from Daniel 7 to depict His eventual Vindication in 70 AD. Jesus was to be vindicated over his enemies and in this case, his enemies were the very people He came to represent and save, but most rejected Him, except the Remnant of Israel. In 70 AD they were to see the reality and truth of the Words He spoke to them a generation previously. They would see that He was who He said He was and that he was going to where He said he was going, to the right Hand of the Father.

    Notice that this verse does not say that the tribes will see the visible, literal bodily Coming Jesus Christ Coming to the earth. It says they will see the “SIGN” of the Son of Man in heaven. They will see the Sign, not the actual Son! The location of that Sign is in heaven, not earth.

    in Matthew 26: 63 Jesus told the the High pries Caiaphas: " And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”"

    How could the High Priest see Jesus at his future Second coming? He has been dead for almost 2000 years? But he did live to see the vindication of Christ. Again, another first century fulfillment!

    The witnesses of the Son of Man coming (up) on the clouds of heaven would be “all the tribes of the land.” They would acknowledge his vindication with mourning, not with joy or faith. This is corroborated by Zechariah 12: 10. Yes, in 70 AD they knew they had “been caught” and there was no way of escape! Jesus was right all along. If only they had listened to Him and taken Him seriously and accepted Him by faith as the Messiah of Israel! All the tribes of the land were still in existence in 70 AD and the records of genealogy of the tribes were destroyed forever by the Romans. No one since can claim they have any idea what tribe they are from, which furthermore adds to the fulfillment being in the first century.

    With power and great glory, Jesus went up to the Father to receive the Kingdom, one which will never be destroyed, in fulfillment of Daniel 7: 13-14.

    Jesus, being the Son of Man of Daniel 7: 13-14, which was clearly recognized by the high Priest for he states Jesus deserved death for the blasphemy for this statement, He went UP to the Father in the clouds of Heaven. He did not come back to earth in Matthew 24: 29-31 and the passage never said he would.

    It is misreading, resulting in a mis-interpretation of Matthew 24: 29-31, to say that Jesus returned at His Second Coming. It is NOT a Second Coming passage nor it is meant to be. They are located elsewhere in Scripture.

    Matthew 24: 30 is not a description of the future Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Everything described was all fulfilled by 70 AD.

    Jesus said: " Truly I say to you, THIS generation will not pass away until all these things take place." He was correct, of course. All things described in Mathew 24 came to pass in the first century.

    As well, an understanding of the events which happened in Israel form 66-70 AD would help to understand the historical context and Scriptural fulfillment of Matthew 24. most Christians have no clue what happened in those years and make excuses not to care about it. When one comes to understand the Rebellion that took place and the apostasy that took place in Jerusalem and Israel, the dissolution of the Jewish people, etc. one can see that a REAL holocaust took place when over 1 million Jews died a the few survivors were taken into captivity, just as Jesus said in Luke 21: 20-24. It truly was a great Tribulation.
    Thank you for taking time to type this out. I really appreciate it.

    There was a real holocaust in 1940s as well. Over 7 million Jews were killed in what was genocide (i.e. an attempt to wipe out Jews) and around just as many Slavs. That's another question I had for partial preterist. How do they handle the passages that say there will never again be as great a tribulation as the one that occurred around 70AD? From what I understand, the PP tie it directly to Jerusalem rather than the entire world. For WW2 seems to me, to have been a lot worse (or at the very least, equal to) in both intensity and magnitude.

    NASB
    Matt 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

    NIV
    Matt 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now — and never to be equaled again.

    We see the same thing in Mark 13

    Mark 13:19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now — and never to be equaled again.

    That passage doesn't seem to limit the distress to just Israel/Judea/Jerusalem. But rather, looks at the entire world. Maybe I am wrong about this...

    As I read it, there seems to be a fulfillment of these things in AD70 but that it keeps on going and going repeatedly... historcist seem to have this right, IMO.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  14. #59
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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Thank you for taking time to type this out. I really appreciate it.

    There was a real holocaust in 1940s as well. Over 7 million Jews were killed in what was genocide (i.e. an attempt to wipe out Jews) and around just as many Slavs. That's another question I had for partial preterist. How do they handle the passages that say there will never again be as great a tribulation as the one that occurred around 70AD? From what I understand, the PP tie it directly to Jerusalem rather than the entire world. For WW2 seems to me, to have been a lot worse (or at the very least, equal to) in both intensity and magnitude.

    NASB
    Matt 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

    NIV
    Matt 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now — and never to be equaled again.

    We see the same thing in Mark 13

    Mark 13:19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now — and never to be equaled again.

    That passage doesn't seem to limit the distress to just Israel/Judea/Jerusalem. But rather, looks at the entire world. Maybe I am wrong about this...

    As I read it, there seems to be a fulfillment of these things in AD70 but that it keeps on going and going repeatedly... historcist seem to have this right, IMO.
    70AD was worse in the fact that 11 out of every 12 people were killed. The greatest disaster was that they lost there temple and religious leadership system forever they knew that God was finished with them in that way forever

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
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    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Thank you for taking time to type this out. I really appreciate it.

    There was a real holocaust in 1940s as well. Over 7 million Jews were killed in what was genocide (i.e. an attempt to wipe out Jews) and around just as many Slavs. That's another question I had for partial preterist. How do they handle the passages that say there will never again be as great a tribulation as the one that occurred around 70AD? From what I understand, the PP tie it directly to Jerusalem rather than the entire world. For WW2 seems to me, to have been a lot worse (or at the very least, equal to) in both intensity and magnitude.

    NASB
    Matt 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

    NIV
    Matt 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now — and never to be equaled again.

    We see the same thing in Mark 13

    Mark 13:19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now — and never to be equaled again.

    That passage doesn't seem to limit the distress to just Israel/Judea/Jerusalem. But rather, looks at the entire world. Maybe I am wrong about this...

    As I read it, there seems to be a fulfillment of these things in AD70 but that it keeps on going and going repeatedly... historcist seem to have this right, IMO.


    Hyperbolic language comes to mind. Lots of it in scripture.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

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