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Thread: The Prophetic Word

  1. #31

    Re: The Prophetic Word

    I’m not posting some argumentative scripture or theories about the op....
    I would however like to maybe shine a light on something not so common that can be applied to understanding why End times understanding isn’t nailed down....just yet. Common sense.

    What happens if everyone actually understands as of right now, let’s say, the %100 prophetic understanding of end times scripture...
    It would probably mean it’s upon us right?
    If we all agreed and understood it way way way before it actual occurance what would happen? Would it happen?

    What I’m trying to say probably unsuccessfully is I don’t think we can know yet, bits pieces and small sections, yes...but as a whole, as one people, no....not until it’s time and then God will fully reveal to us not as individuals but as one minded in Christ what is, was and is to come regarding all coming and end related scriptures.

    Now I’m not saying all this debate and different views ext, these end times related debates and studies is bad or unresourceful, far from it, I believe it is purposed so that when it is time for those things to occur we will be prepared even if we were off from our interpretations and understandings....it will be pieced together.

    As far as why we don’t mostly or all understand end scriptures the same is because God has a purpose for it to be applied at the end, when it’s to be revealed which I believe and others may not is when the man of sin, the beast is revealed, when this occurs:

    Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
    13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    And:

    Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened

  2. #32

    Re: The Prophetic Word

    For the ďare we here or not debateĒ
    One question regarding that, how can the dragon wage war against us if we are gone when tribulation occurs?
    It does not make any sense especially when scripture says right here below he goes to wage war against the saints!

    17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.



  3. #33
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsAllLinked View Post
    For the “are we here or not debate”
    One question regarding that, how can the dragon wage war against us if we are gone when tribulation occurs?
    It does not make any sense especially when scripture says right here below he goes to wage war against the saints!

    17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    None of us know it all, some of the prophesies do actually say; Only after it has happened, will we finally understand.

    However, we should not be entirely 'in the dark' about God's plans for our future. Revelation does give us a sequence of events; the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls and only after the 7th Bowl, will Jesus Return. Revelation 15:1
    Your point about Satan, the Dragon persecuting Christians; Revelation 12:17, is good and makes a mockery of the entire false teaching of a 'rapture to heaven'. That idea is not Biblical and can never happen. John 3:13

  4. #34
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I see your still living in the past.....Matt 24 is future.
    It was future from when Jesus said it, but it is actually a lot of it (especially what you quoted) as the present.

    Again Matt 24 is future. That's why you question this.
    I am not questioning it. I am making a statement based upon this aspect which IS clearly future (which you seem to be saying as well).
    Therefore your claim as to why I question YOUR interpretation is not based upon that.

    Again Matt 24:15 is future as well as Dan 12 reference. Note Matt 24:15 either way would actually be after Jesus was born.
    Matt 24:15 is NOT Dan 12. Dan 12 happened.

    God's wrath on the ungodly.
    In which case you don;t understand WHAT the GT is.
    It is NOT about God's wrath - the Tribulation is about the elect.

    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    What flesh is being saved? the elect's? Why would "flesh" be saved it can't inherit the kingdom.
    Rather the "flesh" being saved are the animals for the up coming wedding feast for the elect's sake, where do you think the food comes from?
    The point of saving "flesh" is so that it BECOMES part of the elect. How did the elect BECOME elect EXCEPT that it was saved.
    So verse 22 is stating that if the GT wasn't shortened then those who are dying WILL DIE with no hope to be saved.

    The GT is after the AOD which Daniel shows is the 1290 day of the 1335. But again you can't see it as your blinded with that preterist teaching.
    The GT starts with the GT as BOTH Jesus AND Daniel state.
    However Daniel does NOT connect the GT with the 1290 days. This is a connection YOU are making without Daniel's words actually supporting it.
    In fact Dan speaks of the 1290 days FROM the time of the sacrifice stopping which is when an AoD WAS seen.

    I have ZERO preterist teaching.
    I accept some historical fulfillment, with a lot still to happen.

  5. #35
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The prophecy of Paul's about meeting Jesus in the clouds, is a contentious one. Are Christians judged then? I do not think so, the verse does not say that.
    Actually I believe that this meeting may be the marriage and the feast as described in Revelation 19:5-9
    You sidestepped that one not so elegantly. I will wait till i here what you understand by the simple and unambiguous words, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: ... ." (1st Thessalonians 4:17). It should not be contentious because it is as plain as "thou shalt not murder". So, for truth's sake, can you agree that the destination is the clouds in the air?


    God's protection during His wrath is prophesied dozens of times. The example of the 3 men in the furnace demonstrates how He can and will do it. Isaiah 41:13, Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 91, Zechariah 9:15-16, +

    Everyone will be on earth during the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, but those who Christians who refused to agree to a peace treaty with the Anti-Christ, Daniel 11:32-35 will be taken to a place of safety on earth for those 1260 days. Revelation 12:14
    Those who did agree to it, must remain. Revelation 12:17, Zechariah 14:2
    What Peace Treaty? You gave no verses for that. And again, you display disbelief in God's plain words. He says in His Word that the Tribulation covers the WHOLE earth (Rev.3:10). What part of WHOLE is not the the whole for you? There will be no INCH/CENTIMETER of the earth where the wrath of God is not felt in the extreme. There is no safe place on earth during this time.

    Revelation 7:15-17 is a prophecy about Eternity. Proved by how God will wipe away every tear then. Revelation 21:4
    No. The context says that their tears were from hunger, thirst, burning sunlight because they will have no shelter, heat and no living waters. Revelation 21:4 occurs a thousand years later. Revelation 19 leads into Chapter 20 in a SEQUENCE. Revelation 20:4-6 introduces the 1,000 year Messianic reign. The kings there are men who opposed the Beast. This puts the 1,000-year reign of Christ AFTER the Great Tribulation. Verse 7 says; "And when ..." - giving the next sequential thing - the end of the 1,000 year reign and a new rebellion. The rest of the Chapter follows the sequence because it describes the resurrection and judgment of "the rest of the dead". Chapter 21 starts with "AND". The Greek word "kai" is copulative, sequential and cumulative. Example; "The boy fell into the water AND got wet." "The tanker caught fire AND exploded." The word "and" shows a sequence AND that at least two things happened to make that sequence.

    Thus, the tears there are shed DURING the 1,000-year reign and wiped away AFTER the old earth is fled away. They are caused by "weeping and gnashing of teeth" when they are excluded from the 1,000-year Kingdom and the Wedding Feast.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You sidestepped that one not so elegantly. I will wait till i here what you understand by the simple and unambiguous words, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: ... ." (1st Thessalonians 4:17). It should not be contentious because it is as plain as "thou shalt not murder". So, for truth's sake, can you agree that the destination is the clouds in the air?




    What Peace Treaty? You gave no verses for that. And again, you display disbelief in God's plain words. He says in His Word that the Tribulation covers the WHOLE earth (Rev.3:10). What part of WHOLE is not the the whole for you? There will be no INCH/CENTIMETER of the earth where the wrath of God is not felt in the extreme. There is no safe place on earth during this time.



    No. The context says that their tears were from hunger, thirst, burning sunlight because they will have no shelter, heat and no living waters. Revelation 21:4 occurs a thousand years later. Revelation 19 leads into Chapter 20 in a SEQUENCE. Revelation 20:4-6 introduces the 1,000 year Messianic reign. The kings there are men who opposed the Beast. This puts the 1,000-year reign of Christ AFTER the Great Tribulation. Verse 7 says; "And when ..." - giving the next sequential thing - the end of the 1,000 year reign and a new rebellion. The rest of the Chapter follows the sequence because it describes the resurrection and judgment of "the rest of the dead". Chapter 21 starts with "AND". The Greek word "kai" is copulative, sequential and cumulative. Example; "The boy fell into the water AND got wet." "The tanker caught fire AND exploded." The word "and" shows a sequence AND that at least two things happened to make that sequence.

    Thus, the tears there are shed DURING the 1,000-year reign and wiped away AFTER the old earth is fled away. They are caused by "weeping and gnashing of teeth" when they are excluded from the 1,000-year Kingdom and the Wedding Feast.
    I do NOT deny plain Words of scripture. Those who remain WILL meet the Lord in the air, as Paul tells us.
    It is what happens then, that concerns me. 'Rapture'' believers like to think they fly off to heaven then, but that idea is illogical and slightly ridiculous as Jesus has just departed from heaven on His way to earth to commence His Millennium reign.
    Revelation 5:9-10 will apply when all arrive in Jerusalem.

    Re; the peace treaty described in Daniel 9:27 and referred to in Isaiah 28:14-15.
    This seven year agreement between the leaders of the OWG and the new nation of Beulah, in all of the holy Land; will be signed exactly seven years before Jesus Returns, as it commences the final 'week' of Daniel's Seventy weeks.
    It does not refer to the GT. which will start when the leader of the OWG breaks this treaty at the mid point, as is well prophesied. THAT triggers the GT, lasting for 3 1/2 years, 42 months, or 1260 days; all the same period, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus.

    You make the common mistake of conflating the Lord's Day of wrath, the Sixth Seal event, which is what Rev 3:10 and Rev 7:14 + refer to, NOT the GT, to come later; of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.

    Regarding the scriptures saying: God will wipe away every tear....
    Revelation Chapter 7 is a sequence of events, commencing just after the Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal. All the faithful Christian people are gathered into the holy Land. They have passed thru great tribulation - the worldwide disaster of the DoL, stood firm in their faith and called upon the Name of the Lord for protection. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21
    THEN; Rev 7:15-17 goes on to prophecy about after the Millennium, as is plainly paralleled by Rev 21:6, both describing Eternity.

  7. #37
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsAllLinked View Post
    Iím not posting some argumentative scripture or theories about the op....
    I would however like to maybe shine a light on something not so common that can be applied to understanding why End times understanding isnít nailed down....just yet. Common sense.

    What happens if everyone actually understands as of right now, letís say, the %100 prophetic understanding of end times scripture...
    It would probably mean itís upon us right?
    If we all agreed and understood it way way way before it actual occurance what would happen? Would it happen?

    What Iím trying to say probably unsuccessfully is I donít think we can know yet, bits pieces and small sections, yes...but as a whole, as one people, no....not until itís time and then God will fully reveal to us not as individuals but as one minded in Christ what is, was and is to come regarding all coming and end related scriptures.

    Now Iím not saying all this debate and different views ext, these end times related debates and studies is bad or unresourceful, far from it, I believe it is purposed so that when it is time for those things to occur we will be prepared even if we were off from our interpretations and understandings....it will be pieced together.

    As far as why we donít mostly or all understand end scriptures the same is because God has a purpose for it to be applied at the end, when itís to be revealed which I believe and others may not is when the man of sin, the beast is revealed, when this occurs:

    Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.Ē
    13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    And:

    Therefore when you see the Ďabomination of desolation,í spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy placeĒ (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 ďthen let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the electís sake those days will be shortened
    The value of prophecy is not always its predictive function, ie to anticipate *when* something is going to happen. It is rather the importance of knowing *that* something is going to happen, so that we can prepare for it. Many of the things predicted for the endtimes already have value for our present time. But yes, as we search the Scriptures we hear God's word, and are corrected by it. It can only do us good. For those who are hung up on themselves and on their own interpretations, the same word will be a snare to them, leading them into judgment, or to face correction, so that they won't be judged. It's all good.

  8. #38

    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The value of prophecy is not always its predictive function, ie to anticipate *when* something is going to happen. It is rather the importance of knowing *that* something is going to happen, so that we can prepare for it. Many of the things predicted for the endtimes already have value for our present time. But yes, as we search the Scriptures we hear God's word, and are corrected by it. It can only do us good. For those who are hung up on themselves and on their own interpretations, the same word will be a snare to them, leading them into judgment, or to face correction, so that they won't be judged. It's all good.
    Which was exactly what I mentioned when I spoke of people not knowing or agreeing yet the very study between all has a function and purpose, a sharing of knowledge even if it’s not acknowledge, it’s lodged deep and can be acknowledge and used when it’s time even if prior you/we didn’t agree.

    Some things are flat out common sense, which was the example the verses I gave that directly state an obvious opposite to some views that are held IE. The saints not being present during tribulation.
    Even in understanding so, if anyone disagrees at the very minimal that information may stick within the mind and when those times come they may understand if even presently in denial.

  9. #39
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The value of prophecy is not always its predictive function, ie to anticipate *when* something is going to happen. It is rather the importance of knowing *that* something is going to happen, so that we can prepare for it. Many of the things predicted for the endtimes already have value for our present time. But yes, as we search the Scriptures we hear God's word, and are corrected by it. It can only do us good. For those who are hung up on themselves and on their own interpretations, the same word will be a snare to them, leading them into judgment, or to face correction, so that they won't be judged. It's all good.
    I would say the main value of prophecy is NOT about when it will happen EXCEPT if that prophecy specifies it as an important component of the prophecy.
    Examples of a prophecy which does have a WHEN is the 70 weeks of Daniel 9.
    However the Olivet Discourse does not focus on the WHEN, predictively, but rather WHEN actively. SO WHEN you SEE the AoD THEN do this. IOW the THEN as a response is the important element.
    Most though of the Olivet Discourse is about WHAT - what will happen so that we may be ready to deal with what happens.
    An Endtime prophecy has a value for now in the same way a previously fulfilled prophecy has for now. It is something we can learn from as to the nature of God and His love for us. It can be a witness to us, as Hebrews 11 reminds us. This should build our faith.

  10. #40
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I do NOT deny plain Words of scripture. Those who remain WILL meet the Lord in the air, as Paul tells us.
    It is what happens then, that concerns me. 'Rapture'' believers like to think they fly off to heaven then, but that idea is illogical and slightly ridiculous as Jesus has just departed from heaven on His way to earth to commence His Millennium reign.
    Revelation 5:9-10 will apply when all arrive in Jerusalem.

    Re; the peace treaty described in Daniel 9:27 and referred to in Isaiah 28:14-15.
    This seven year agreement between the leaders of the OWG and the new nation of Beulah, in all of the holy Land; will be signed exactly seven years before Jesus Returns, as it commences the final 'week' of Daniel's Seventy weeks.
    It does not refer to the GT. which will start when the leader of the OWG breaks this treaty at the mid point, as is well prophesied. THAT triggers the GT, lasting for 3 1/2 years, 42 months, or 1260 days; all the same period, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus.

    You make the common mistake of conflating the Lord's Day of wrath, the Sixth Seal event, which is what Rev 3:10 and Rev 7:14 + refer to, NOT the GT, to come later; of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.

    Regarding the scriptures saying: God will wipe away every tear....
    Revelation Chapter 7 is a sequence of events, commencing just after the Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal. All the faithful Christian people are gathered into the holy Land. They have passed thru great tribulation - the worldwide disaster of the DoL, stood firm in their faith and called upon the Name of the Lord for protection. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21
    THEN; Rev 7:15-17 goes on to prophecy about after the Millennium, as is plainly paralleled by Rev 21:6, both describing Eternity.
    The Greek word "Harpazo" is literally rendered "caught away". You have not ceased over the years to deride and deny "being whisked away", "flying off" in RAPTURE. You have reviled and denied this doctrine from the first day you were on this Forum. What brings about your sudden change of opinion? And if it is correct that the Christians are "caught away" to the sky in the context of "having "not been appointed to wrath", what is the reason you have denied that Christians will be removed FROM THE EARTH where the awful wrath of God is doing its job? Don't get me wrong. I rejoice at your change of belief, but I just wonder why you so vehemently denied this over years when you claim NOT to "deny PLAIN words of scripture?

    Scripture says that our Lord now sits "above ALL heavens" (Eph.4:10). The word "ALL" implies that there are multiple heavens. Paul visited the THIRD of these, making this multiplicity at least THREE. Added to this, Genesis 1:6-8 shows that what God called "heaven" is BELOW the "waters". If the Church meets Christ in the CLOUDS, as 1st Thessalonians 4:17 PLAINLY says, and HEAVEN is below the water, is it not safe to assert that the Church is "caught away" to heaven? It is just a matter of common geography. Wnd would this not alos explain how men, "who were redeemed FROM the earth", get to stand before the THRONE (not Bema) in Revelation 14:1-5?

    As to your "Peace Treaty", here are your proffered scriptures:
    Isaiah 28:14-15:
    14 "Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
    15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:"


    No OWG. No Peace Treaty predicted in the future. No PEACE even mentioned but DEATH. A prophecy written in the PAST TENSE! Unless you can show otherwise, I must assume you add to scripture to produce a doctrine that God never intended.

    Daniel 9:27:
    27 "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

    No OWG. The word "confirm" means "strengthen by self power". It is "THE Covenant" in the KJV or "A Covenant" in other renderings. This all implies that the Covenant was already in place but just "weak". One cannot "strengthen" anything that does not exist in the first place! And the Covenant is connected with the "sacrifice and offering". There is only ONE Covenant on earth that regulates Daniel's People and their sacrifices and offerings - that of Sinai. Again, in the face of scripture, you have INVENTED a "Peace Treaty".

    Concerning the Seals, while we may take a SEQUENCE, we may not put a time to the sequence. For all intents and purposes the Seals were opened within minutes of each other. But even if we grant you weeks and/or months between the opening of the individual Seals, what then about Chapter 7? It starts with an "AND" - showing accumulation and sequence. It thus comes AFTER the sixth Seal, yet Chapter 7:3 denies that the earth is yet "hurt" until the Remnant of Israel is sealed. So Chapter 7 must come BEFORE Chapter 6! But then another timing problem arises. The "innumerable multitude" of the next verses (7:9-17) appear to have FINISHED with the Great Tribulation! Would it not be correct to say that Chapter 6 shows the PARALLEL EFFECT of all six seals, with a parenthesis in Chapter 7:1-8 to make exceptions BEFORE the Seals unleash their misery, while the rest of Chapter 7 shows the END of their devastating effects?

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsAllLinked View Post
    Which was exactly what I mentioned when I spoke of people not knowing or agreeing yet the very study between all has a function and purpose, a sharing of knowledge even if itís not acknowledge, itís lodged deep and can be acknowledge and used when itís time even if prior you/we didnít agree.

    Some things are flat out common sense, which was the example the verses I gave that directly state an obvious opposite to some views that are held IE. The saints not being present during tribulation.
    Even in understanding so, if anyone disagrees at the very minimal that information may stick within the mind and when those times come they may understand if even presently in denial.
    Yes, I was agreeing with you. In the many years I've dealt with the subject whether we're here or not during the "Tribulation" I've seen some strange things. Many of my friends are pretrib, and my church denomination is pretrib. But very few even want to discuss the subject, while they reserve the right to declare the "fact" of the Pretrib Rapture at any time.

    If I raise the issue, I'm "argumentative." If they raise the issue, they are just stating "what everyone believes." When I ask them to show any explicit reference to Pretrib Doctrine, they sometimes capitulate, but then go on to say that my position is not explicit either. In fact, the Postrib position is very explicit--it is just a matter of interpretation.

    I just think that a debatable subject like this, in which it "appears" to teach Postrib we should be able to discuss this openly, without hindrance. However, I'm regularly marginalized and hindered. Even my pastors have promised to discuss the subject with me, and then "disappear."

    I have to agree that if we succeed in discussing the subject *somewhere,* we can only help clarify what is really important *to God,* since in searching His Scriptures we will find what it was important *for Him* to say!

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I would say the main value of prophecy is NOT about when it will happen EXCEPT if that prophecy specifies it as an important component of the prophecy.
    Examples of a prophecy which does have a WHEN is the 70 weeks of Daniel 9.
    However the Olivet Discourse does not focus on the WHEN, predictively, but rather WHEN actively. SO WHEN you SEE the AoD THEN do this. IOW the THEN as a response is the important element.
    Most though of the Olivet Discourse is about WHAT - what will happen so that we may be ready to deal with what happens.
    An Endtime prophecy has a value for now in the same way a previously fulfilled prophecy has for now. It is something we can learn from as to the nature of God and His love for us. It can be a witness to us, as Hebrews 11 reminds us. This should build our faith.
    In general I agree with everything you say. But specifically, the prophecy you mentioned as an example we would not agree on, which you know. The Olivet Discourse does discuss a WHEN, in my view. The Disciples are told that *in this generation* all these things would happen, namely the destruction of the temple.

    But their preparation did not just consist of trying to benefit from "looking through a crystal ball." Rather, it was an encouragement to right living in the present so that when the time came they would be able to make the right decision, namely to "escape."

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The Greek word "Harpazo" is literally rendered "caught away". You have not ceased over the years to deride and deny "being whisked away", "flying off" in RAPTURE. You have reviled and denied this doctrine from the first day you were on this Forum. What brings about your sudden change of opinion? And if it is correct that the Christians are "caught away" to the sky in the context of "having "not been appointed to wrath", what is the reason you have denied that Christians will be removed FROM THE EARTH where the awful wrath of God is doing its job? Don't get me wrong. I rejoice at your change of belief, but I just wonder why you so vehemently denied this over years when you claim NOT to "deny PLAIN words of scripture?

    Scripture says that our Lord now sits "above ALL heavens" (Eph.4:10). The word "ALL" implies that there are multiple heavens. Paul visited the THIRD of these, making this multiplicity at least THREE. Added to this, Genesis 1:6-8 shows that what God called "heaven" is BELOW the "waters". If the Church meets Christ in the CLOUDS, as 1st Thessalonians 4:17 PLAINLY says, and HEAVEN is below the water, is it not safe to assert that the Church is "caught away" to heaven? It is just a matter of common geography. Wnd would this not alos explain how men, "who were redeemed FROM the earth", get to stand before the THRONE (not Bema) in Revelation 14:1-5?

    As to your "Peace Treaty", here are your proffered scriptures:
    Isaiah 28:14-15:
    14 "Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
    15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:"


    No OWG. No Peace Treaty predicted in the future. No PEACE even mentioned but DEATH. A prophecy written in the PAST TENSE! Unless you can show otherwise, I must assume you add to scripture to produce a doctrine that God never intended.

    Daniel 9:27:
    27 "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

    No OWG. The word "confirm" means "strengthen by self power". It is "THE Covenant" in the KJV or "A Covenant" in other renderings. This all implies that the Covenant was already in place but just "weak". One cannot "strengthen" anything that does not exist in the first place! And the Covenant is connected with the "sacrifice and offering". There is only ONE Covenant on earth that regulates Daniel's People and their sacrifices and offerings - that of Sinai. Again, in the face of scripture, you have INVENTED a "Peace Treaty".

    Concerning the Seals, while we may take a SEQUENCE, we may not put a time to the sequence. For all intents and purposes the Seals were opened within minutes of each other. But even if we grant you weeks and/or months between the opening of the individual Seals, what then about Chapter 7? It starts with an "AND" - showing accumulation and sequence. It thus comes AFTER the sixth Seal, yet Chapter 7:3 denies that the earth is yet "hurt" until the Remnant of Israel is sealed. So Chapter 7 must come BEFORE Chapter 6! But then another timing problem arises. The "innumerable multitude" of the next verses (7:9-17) appear to have FINISHED with the Great Tribulation! Would it not be correct to say that Chapter 6 shows the PARALLEL EFFECT of all six seals, with a parenthesis in Chapter 7:1-8 to make exceptions BEFORE the Seals unleash their misery, while the rest of Chapter 7 shows the END of their devastating effects?
    You, Walls; are the worst jumper to conclusions that I know. Here is a saying I made up: Jumping to conclusions may lead to contusions!

    I remain adamantly opposed to the 'rapture to heaven' theory. That doctrine is never stated in the Bible and many scriptures directly oppose it.
    The confusion arises when people don't make the destination of the 'harparzo' clear. It is plain from reading 1 Thess 4:7, that it could not be to heaven, as Jesus has just departed from there, on His way to Return to the earth.

    Re God's wrath; that has all happened before Jesus Returns, Revelation 15:1, so this 'harparzo' is just a transportation of the Christians to where Jesus is. And the only dead Christians who will also participate in this event, are the martyrs of the GT. Revelation 20:4

    The treaty described in Isaiah 28:14-15 is plainly the one Daniel 9:27 refers to. It will be between the leaders of the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, and the leader of the rest of the world. Daniel 7:23-24 It isn't a 'covenant' as is mis-translated, because it is between equals, not with God. Just a normal agreement of non-aggression, as we have had many of in the past. My REB calls it a firm league in Daniel and a pact in Isaiah.

    Re the Seals; I read Revelation 7:1-3 as a flashback to before the Sixth Seal. God's people will be protected during that terrible, earth changing event. All who call upon the Name of the Lord will be saved. Joel 2:34, Acts 2:21

    It is plainly evident that the first five Seals are opened now. They always have been, to some extent, since Adam, Zechariah 1:8-11 & 6:1-8, but Jesus gave those 'horsemen' a gee-up at His ascension. The effects of the Fifth Seal was the terrible Roman persecution of Christians, which has never stopped, with all sorts of Satanically inspired groups killing Christians. It will get worse in the last days.
    You make the common mistake in Revelation 7:14, of putting 'the' in front of great tribulation. 'the' isn't there and that verse refers to the just happened Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
    The Sixth Seal IS the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath against the nations. Just like He did in Noah's time but this time with fire.

    The innumerable multitude are all the Christian peoples gathered in the holy Land, as is comprehensively prophesied. Living there, with the great Blessings of God to His people as Promised, will be like heaven on earth.
    The Seventh Seal, Rev 8:1, tells of a time gap, between the Sixth Seal and the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, that will occur during the final 1260 days before Jesus Returns. That time gap is a half hour in heaven, which equates to about 20 years earth time, using the given formula of 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalms 90:4. This is about right for all that is prophesied to take place.

    What is sure, is there is coming great and dramatic events and if they don't unfold as the Bible prophets have so carefully detailed for us; then we may as well just discard our Bibles and eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. Isaiah 22:15

  14. #44
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In general I agree with everything you say. But specifically, the prophecy you mentioned as an example we would not agree on, which you know. The Olivet Discourse does discuss a WHEN, in my view. The Disciples are told that *in this generation* all these things would happen, namely the destruction of the temple.

    But their preparation did not just consist of trying to benefit from "looking through a crystal ball." Rather, it was an encouragement to right living in the present so that when the time came they would be able to make the right decision, namely to "escape."
    That generation of the First century, did escape; to Pella.
    But they did not experience the cosmic and world changing things as many prophesies tell us will happen in this generation, the one alive during the end times.
    You seem to want to 'escape' as they did, but Jesus said: there is no escape for that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Luke 21:25-36

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    That generation of the First century, did escape; to Pella.
    But they did not experience the cosmic and world changing things as many prophesies tell us will happen in this generation, the one alive during the end times.
    You seem to want to 'escape' as they did, but Jesus said: there is no escape for that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Luke 21:25-36
    I have no idea what you're talking about? Apparently we agree on the "escape to Pella." But what do you mean by saying "I seem to want to escape?"

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