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Thread: The Prophetic Word

  1. #46
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Escape all these things?
    KJV Luke 21:34-36 Take heed, yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with the surfeit and cares of this life, so that the Day comes upon you unawares. For as a snare, it will come on all those that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch, ye, therefore and pray always that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and so stand before the Son of Man.
    NIV Be careful or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation and the anxieties and that Day will close on you unexpectedly, like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.
    NET Be on your guard, so that your hearts are not weighed down with dissipation and the worries of this life and that Day close down on you like a trap. For it will overtake all who live on the face of the earth. But stay alert at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape all these things that must happen and to stand before the Son of Man.
    REB Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by dissipation and worldly cares, so that the great Day catches you suddenly, like a trap. For that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Be on the alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass through all that is coming and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man.
    This interesting Bible passage requires careful examination. It is obvious that it refers to the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath – the next prophesied event, then eventually, how we will stand in the Presence of Jesus. Thinking it means a removal from the earth for anyone, is a direct contradiction of the previous verse. It requires another scripture that plainly states that God will take His people to heaven, or very similar. No such verse can be found.

    We are informed by Luke and by other prophets, that ALL who live on the earth will experience this coming Day. Only those who are ‘accounted worthy’ or ‘have the strength’, will ‘pass (safely) through’ or ‘escape all these things’, ‘that shall come to pass’ or ‘that must happen’.

    So, this great Day of vengeance and wrath, will happen and judging by the current world situation, especially in the Middle East, that may be quite soon.
    This Day ‘will come upon everyone on earth’, so it is incorrect to say that it is possible to ‘escape all these things’. We will not be ‘raptured’, or taken to a ‘place of safety’ on that Day. We are told to pray for strength and stay alert during this terrifying time. Before it happens, in the short time that we have left of the present dispensation, we ‘must not let worldly cares weigh us down’, so that the Day does not catch us without fore warning and unprepared. If you know what is coming, you are not shocked and terrified, you make preparations, you stay calm, trusting in God to keep you safe. Isaiah 30:15
    Therefore the REB gives the correct translation.

    To recap: many prophesies speak of this great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, which will come suddenly and unexpectedly upon the whole world. What best fits the descriptions?
    Nuclear explosions? No, because even a large bomb only destroys up to a certain radius.
    Comet strike? Possible, as that would cause worldwide effects. This will happen during the Tribulation period. Revelation 8:8-11.

    Coronal mass ejection? Yes, a massive CME fits all the prophecies and does not leave radiation.
    Isaiah 30:26a....the sun will shine with seven times its usual brightness.....
    No other explanation that a CME can be inferred from that prophecy. But then;
    Isaiah 30:26b... on the Day the Lord heals His people....
    The promise is given that on this Day, the Lord will save and protect His righteous people.
    Joel 3:16 The Lord roars from Zion and thunders from Jerusalem, so that the heaven and the earth shudder, but He is a refuge for His people, a defense for His holy people.
    Read Psalm 107 for encouragement.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Keraz, you seem to think that all are your enemies, and all believe in a Pretrib Rapture. I don't think you're listening. You just go on about this "coronal mass ejection." Sounds flat out hysterical, to me...

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Keraz, you seem to think that all are your enemies, and all believe in a Pretrib Rapture. I don't think you're listening. You just go on about this "coronal mass ejection." Sounds flat out hysterical, to me...
    Brother Randyk, I am sorry that you feel this way. My objective is to warn everyone who will listen, of dramatic events which may happen quite soon.
    What we can be sure of is; firstly that the Bible is the genuine Word of God to His people.
    Secondly, this world is currently in a perilous situation and we can expect changes that will affect us all.

    So; is it 'hysterical' to promote what the Prophetic Word actually says?
    Will this world just carry on much the same as now, forever?

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In general I agree with everything you say. But specifically, the prophecy you mentioned as an example we would not agree on, which you know.
    Not sure what about my statement about Dan 9 you are saying is incorrect. Are you saying that Dan 9 is NOT about a SPECIFIC length of time?

    The Olivet Discourse does discuss a WHEN, in my view. The Disciples are told that *in this generation* all these things would happen, namely the destruction of the temple.
    It does indeed discuss a WHEN as I stated.
    However the WHEN which is about WHEN you SEE, THEN you ACT. So the usage is NOT predicting exactly when it will occur, but rather when it DOES occur THEN you should respond.
    As to your claim about Jesus telling the Disciples "in this generation", we have a disagreement about that as in CONTEXT this includes EVERYTHING previously discussed within the OD, which you ignore. It also doesn't actually change my point about the PURPOSE of the statement regarding WHEN.

    But their preparation did not just consist of trying to benefit from "looking through a crystal ball." Rather, it was an encouragement to right living in the present so that when the time came they would be able to make the right decision, namely to "escape."
    Actually the right living aspect was NOT tied into this part of the prophecy. Right living is a CONSTANT application of Christian life, whether you are expecting anything or not. This particular thing though was a specific instruction which if you did not follow it would be to your detriment.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Brother Randyk, I am sorry that you feel this way. My objective is to warn everyone who will listen, of dramatic events which may happen quite soon.
    What we can be sure of is; firstly that the Bible is the genuine Word of God to His people.
    Secondly, this world is currently in a perilous situation and we can expect changes that will affect us all.

    So; is it 'hysterical' to promote what the Prophetic Word actually says?
    Will this world just carry on much the same as now, forever?
    No, we should teach the Scriptures, and it's fine to speculate about what will actually happen. If you've had a vision, I suppose it will prove itself eventually, one way or the other.

    What I get irritated by is when you regularly lay on those you discuss with the charge of having a "Rapture" mentality. Nobody is more anti-Pretrib Rapture than I am. I'm not looking for an escape to heaven. And I've never said so. So I don't know why you jump to conclusions that I believe such a thing? Therefore, I wonder how much you spend listening to what others actually say, as opposed to simply getting your own beliefs out there?

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    What I get irritated by is when you regularly lay on those you discuss with the charge of having a "Rapture" mentality. Nobody is more anti-Pretrib Rapture than I am. I'm not looking for an escape to heaven. And I've never said so. So I don't know why you jump to conclusions that I believe such a thing? Therefore, I wonder how much you spend listening to what others actually say, as opposed to simply getting your own beliefs out there?
    When replying to an individual on the forums, I am always aware of the many who read the posts, so it is to them my reply; rebuttal, scriptural proofs, is mainly directed. Your posts are better than most, but do tend to be longwinded!

    I remain appalled at the prevalence of the 'rapture to heaven' belief. Many people I know personally, firmly believe it and it is best to avoid upset; by keeping away from talking about a 'rapture'.
    Basically they have chosen to believe a lie and the Lord has locked them into it. Isaiah 29:9-12, 2 Thess 2:11-12....so that all who have not believed the truth, but have chosen false theories, may be brought to Judgment.
    Rapture believers have not lost their Salvation, but they have set themselves up for a terrible disappointment, which will cause many to renounce God, as they remain on earth; looking very silly with their arms raised and wondering where Jesus is.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    When replying to an individual on the forums, I am always aware of the many who read the posts, so it is to them my reply; rebuttal, scriptural proofs, is mainly directed. Your posts are better than most, but do tend to be longwinded!

    I remain appalled at the prevalence of the 'rapture to heaven' belief. Many people I know personally, firmly believe it and it is best to avoid upset; by keeping away from talking about a 'rapture'.
    Basically they have chosen to believe a lie and the Lord has locked them into it. Isaiah 29:9-12, 2 Thess 2:11-12....so that all who have not believed the truth, but have chosen false theories, may be brought to Judgment.
    Rapture believers have not lost their Salvation, but they have set themselves up for a terrible disappointment, which will cause many to renounce God, as they remain on earth; looking very silly with their arms raised and wondering where Jesus is.
    Yes, I agree that the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine is a pitfall, with inherent dangers. Anytime we ignore explicit doctrine we do so at our own peril. We are never told to suspend judgment, and to seek escape from troubles in this age. The only thing we are to seek escape from are the Devil's traps, and from judgments that are designed for the wicked.

  8. #53

    Re: The Prophetic Word

    I’m of the mind that when He spoke of “this generation” He was speaking of the generation that would see His return and all of the events preceding to it that He speaks of.

    He’s informing them that it will be quick.

    Just as “for the devil knows he has but a short time”

    Or

    If it was not shortened no flesh would survive.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsAllLinked View Post
    I’m of the mind that when He spoke of “this generation” He was speaking of the generation that would see His return and all of the events preceding to it that He speaks of.

    He’s informing them that it will be quick.

    Just as “for the devil knows he has but a short time”

    Or

    If it was not shortened no flesh would survive.
    Of course He is. WE are the generation who will see all these things!

    Preterists and those who don't want to experience hard times, are just ignoring the truth that most of what is prophesied has not yet been fulfilled. But faithful Christians should not have the impression that the end times will be difficult for them. God promises great Blessings for them and then for the Millennium, we will be His priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:10

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, I agree that the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine is a pitfall, with inherent dangers. Anytime we ignore explicit doctrine we do so at our own peril. We are never told to suspend judgment, and to seek escape from troubles in this age. The only thing we are to seek escape from are the Devil's traps, and from judgments that are designed for the wicked.
    Amazing! In one breath you say that we must follow "explicit doctrine", and in the next that the doctrine is that we "escape from the Devil's traps". The DOCTRINE concerning the Devil is that we RESIST! We wear armour! We stand! We meet it head on! "AND HE WILL FLEE!!!" The DOCTRINE of the new Testament is that we ESCAPE
    • The Lake of Fire - God's wrath (Matt.10:28)
    • The Tormentors - God's wrath (Matt.18:34)
    • The Great Tribulation - God's wrath (1st Thess.5:9)

    The agonies of the Great Tribulation fill the Book of Revelation. The word WRATH appears in 13 verses. TEN of them are "the WRATH of God/Lamb". And this WRATH is for the UNGODLY (Romans 1:18, Ephesians 5:6 and Colossians 3:6). What then of the GODLY? Your doctrine is that they must be paid EQUALLY in wrath! The Bibles's doctrine is that "the worthy", and the "Overcomers" will escape (Lk.21:36; Rev.3:10).

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Amazing! In one breath you say that we must follow "explicit doctrine", and in the next that the doctrine is that we "escape from the Devil's traps". The DOCTRINE concerning the Devil is that we RESIST! We wear armour! We stand! We meet it head on! "AND HE WILL FLEE!!!" The DOCTRINE of the new Testament is that we ESCAPE
    • The Lake of Fire - God's wrath (Matt.10:28)
    • The Tormentors - God's wrath (Matt.18:34)
    • The Great Tribulation - God's wrath (1st Thess.5:9)

    The agonies of the Great Tribulation fill the Book of Revelation. The word WRATH appears in 13 verses. TEN of them are "the WRATH of God/Lamb". And this WRATH is for the UNGODLY (Romans 1:18, Ephesians 5:6 and Colossians 3:6). What then of the GODLY? Your doctrine is that they must be paid EQUALLY in wrath! The Bibles's doctrine is that "the worthy", and the "Overcomers" will escape (Lk.21:36; Rev.3:10).
    The real problem is that I don't agree with your definition of "the Great Tribulation." If you don't have that right, then your sense of "escaping the Great Tribulation" is wrong.

    I don't identify the Great Tribulation as "the Wrath of God." The Wrath of God is divine judgment poured out upon sinners, who have rebelled against God. Christians can go through an era and an area where God's wrath is poured out upon sinners. And yet Christians are not therein under judgment.

    The Great Tribulation is the NT era, in which the Jews have lost their Kingdom, having gone into the Diaspora. They lost their temple worship, and are under a curse, having rejected Jesus, their Messiah.

    And so the Jews have gone into and have remained in great tribulation. And this will not stop until "the times of the Gentiles come to an end." Believing Jews have had to go through this national calamity because they are also Jews. They have had to go through the Great Tribulation.

    But these Christians will endure through the fire, and come out the other end unscathed. They will *not* suffer the Wrath of God.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The real problem is that I don't agree with your definition of "the Great Tribulation." If you don't have that right, then your sense of "escaping the Great Tribulation" is wrong.

    I don't identify the Great Tribulation as "the Wrath of God." The Wrath of God is divine judgment poured out upon sinners, who have rebelled against God. Christians can go through an era and an area where God's wrath is poured out upon sinners. And yet Christians are not therein under judgment.

    The Great Tribulation is the NT era, in which the Jews have lost their Kingdom, having gone into the Diaspora. They lost their temple worship, and are under a curse, having rejected Jesus, their Messiah.

    And so the Jews have gone into and have remained in great tribulation. And this will not stop until "the times of the Gentiles come to an end." Believing Jews have had to go through this national calamity because they are also Jews. They have had to go through the Great Tribulation.

    But these Christians will endure through the fire, and come out the other end unscathed. They will *not* suffer the Wrath of God.
    First, you not so elegantly side-stepped your "doctrine" on the Devil. "Silence is Golden" they sang a long time ago. But it was important.

    Next you declare the Great Tribulation as the New Testament era. Let us see. Matthew 24:15-22 gives the definition and the boundaries of the Great Tribulation.

    (1) The Biblical Definition of the Great Tribulation is; "tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be". So, since the world began, according to your theory, conditions have been worse than the earth constantly covered with water, for since the world began it is twice FULLY submerged (Gen 1:2, 7:17-24) - with all but 8 taken in the agony of drowning. But I say that every catastrophe and war and pestilence has been LOCAL and TEMPORARY. At no time did the events of Noah's time nor those of Revelation overtake the WHOLE EARTH.

    (2) The TIME of the Great Tribulation is the TIME between the Abomination of Desolation and the sign of the Son of Man in the sky (Matt.24:29-30). Daniel 9:24-27 sets the boundaries of this TIME. Seventy weeks are given to Daniel's People and Jerusalem for them to (i) be reconciled with God, (ii) bring in everlasting righteousness, (iii) to anoint the Most Holy. The Abomination of Desolation takes place at 69 weeks. That is, at the end of 69 weeks the greatest crime ever is committed - the murder of Messiah. What ever gap you give between the end of the 69th and the 70th week, AN-OTHER crime of equal proportion is committed. Except a small section, the whole world's population make a definite decision to reject Jesus and embrace, with worship, a Gentile king, the Beast. The time of this Abomination of Desolation? - Just 3 years before the end of the 70th week! Is there reconciliation up to then? Jerusalem is, "... spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev.11:8). With these heinous crimes and God's condemning names for Jerusalem, there can be no talk of Daniel's People and/or City being reconciled to God, everlasting righteous among Daniel's People, or any "Most Holy" being anointed.

    It is just sixth grade math. At 69 weeks we have the Abomination of Desolation which does not allow ANY of the goals of the 70 weeks. And then 3 years later ALL OF THEM ARE FULFILLED. The Great Tribulation which only STARTS AFTER the Abomination of Desolation must be OVER 3 years later. Simple. And then we have the repeated TIME of 1260 days, 42 months and a time, times and half a time, just so the most ardent twister of scripture has no chance or choice. The Great Tribulation lasts the last 3 years BEFORE THE RETURN OF CHRIST!

    But then your logic takes another blow. You have just declared the Great Tribulation to be from 70 AD. And then in paragraph two of your posting you state that Christians go through this Great Tribulation and must face this Great Tribulation (for it encompasses the whole earth) BUT "ARE NOT THEREIN UNDER JUDGMENT!" What! God has poured out agony upon agony upon the ungodly AND POURED OUT THE SAME WHO WERE RIGHTEOUS AND DEPENDING ON THE SALVATION OF JESUS! (1st Thessalonians 5:9). That is close to blasphemy! That declares these words vain and void; "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ:" That declares the efficacy of Jesus WITHOUT MERIT! That declares that the blood of Christ could not save men from God's wrath. And even worse you declare that God poured out just deserts fro OUR sins on Jesus on Golgotha AND THEN AGAIN on us in His WRATH - a double punishment! In all this you make God a liar and unrighteous Judge. You can squirm all you want but any Christian who goes through the Great Tribulation will emerge WAILING (Rev.7:9-17).

    But there is more. You say the Great Tribulation starts in 70 AD and the Jews are in this Great Tribulation. BUT ....
    1. The Great Tribulation is for the NATIONS for it is over the whole earth. Who persecuted THEM???
    2. The Great Tribulation must be for CHRISTIANS for they are on earth too. The nations AND the Jews persecutes them!

    So the Great Tribulation, according to your logic, is when
    1. the Nations persecute the Jews
    2. The Nations AND the Jews persecute the Christians
    3. God persecutes the Nations, Israel AND the Christians

    C'mon bro.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    First, you not so elegantly side-stepped your "doctrine" on the Devil. "Silence is Golden" they sang a long time ago. But it was important.
    I had a "single" by the Tremeloes a very long time ago. That aside...
    I wasn't "side-stepping" anything. I'm sorry you feel that way. And I'm not sure what you're referring to with respect to my "doctrine on the Devil?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    Next you declare the Great Tribulation as the New Testament era. Let us see. Matthew 24:15-22 gives the definition and the boundaries of the Great Tribulation.

    (1) The Biblical Definition of the Great Tribulation is; "tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be". So, since the world began, according to your theory, conditions have been worse than the earth constantly covered with water, for since the world began it is twice FULLY submerged (Gen 1:2, 7:17-24) - with all but 8 taken in the agony of drowning. But I say that every catastrophe and war and pestilence has been LOCAL and TEMPORARY. At no time did the events of Noah's time nor those of Revelation overtake the WHOLE EARTH.
    I'm not equating the Great Tribulation with the NT era for everybody--just for Israel. It is indeed the longest-lasting period of dispersion they have ever suffered. And indeed, it has threatened their very existence. Such a long time without a homeland endangers them with immersion into other cultures, thus taking away their national distinction. Furthermore, inasmuch as Jews have been regularly persecuted throughout the NT era, there has been the danger of extermination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    (2) The TIME of the Great Tribulation is the TIME between the Abomination of Desolation and the sign of the Son of Man in the sky (Matt.24:29-30). Daniel 9:24-27 sets the boundaries of this TIME. Seventy weeks are given to Daniel's People and Jerusalem for them to (i) be reconciled with God, (ii) bring in everlasting righteousness, (iii) to anoint the Most Holy. The Abomination of Desolation takes place at 69 weeks. That is, at the end of 69 weeks the greatest crime ever is committed - the murder of Messiah. What ever gap you give between the end of the 69th and the 70th week, AN-OTHER crime of equal proportion is committed. Except a small section, the whole world's population make a definite decision to reject Jesus and embrace, with worship, a Gentile king, the Beast. The time of this Abomination of Desolation? - Just 3 years before the end of the 70th week! Is there reconciliation up to then? Jerusalem is, "... spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev.11:8). With these heinous crimes and God's condemning names for Jerusalem, there can be no talk of Daniel's People and/or City being reconciled to God, everlasting righteous among Daniel's People, or any "Most Holy" being anointed.
    My view of these passages are significantly different than yours. The 70 Weeks led up to the earthly ministry, and death, of Messiah. This ended the 70 Weeks. There followed the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, which was a judgment against Israel in that generation.

    This started the Great Tribulation of the Jewish People in the NT era. They will not be restored as a nation, spiritually, until the Son of Man returns from heaven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    It is just sixth grade math. At 69 weeks we have the Abomination of Desolation which does not allow ANY of the goals of the 70 weeks. And then 3 years later ALL OF THEM ARE FULFILLED. The Great Tribulation which only STARTS AFTER the Abomination of Desolation must be OVER 3 years later. Simple. And then we have the repeated TIME of 1260 days, 42 months and a time, times and half a time, just so the most ardent twister of scripture has no chance or choice. The Great Tribulation lasts the last 3 years BEFORE THE RETURN OF CHRIST!

    But then your logic takes another blow. You have just declared the Great Tribulation to be from 70 AD. And then in paragraph two of your posting you state that Christians go through this Great Tribulation and must face this Great Tribulation (for it encompasses the whole earth) BUT "ARE NOT THEREIN UNDER JUDGMENT!" What! God has poured out agony upon agony upon the ungodly AND POURED OUT THE SAME WHO WERE RIGHTEOUS AND DEPENDING ON THE SALVATION OF JESUS! (1st Thessalonians 5:9). That is close to blasphemy! That declares these words vain and void; "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ:" That declares the efficacy of Jesus WITHOUT MERIT! That declares that the blood of Christ could not save men from God's wrath. And even worse you declare that God poured out just deserts fro OUR sins on Jesus on Golgotha AND THEN AGAIN on us in His WRATH - a double punishment! In all this you make God a liar and unrighteous Judge. You can squirm all you want but any Christian who goes through the Great Tribulation will emerge WAILING (Rev.7:9-17).
    You sound like you're having a bad day, Walls! As colorful as you describe it, I'm not "squirming" in the least! It's a common refrain. Israel went through the plagues of Egypt together with the Egyptians, but came out of it unscathed--they did not experience the wrath of God. And yet, Egypt did.

    Let's use a more recent example in history. There were Christians, like D. Bonhoeffer, who were in Germany during WW2. Germany suffered the "wrath of God" towards the end of that war, and good men like Bonhoeffer were imprisoned and died. Germany suffered the "wrath of God," and Bonhoeffer also went through this judgment. And yet he did not suffer "God's wrath"--he simply went through it with those who did deserve it.

    The "Great Tribulation" is the punishment of the Jewish People in the NT era, and many Jewish converts to Christianity have had to experience the same national judgment undeservedly. They did not experience the wrath of God, but only the "tribulation" that fell upon the Jewish People because of the majority decision to rebel against God.

    I live in America. We have a democracy here in the US. I have to live by the decisions of a majority that often are anti-God and anti-Christian. Just because I live in America does not mean God is judging me. It only means that God is judging the nation, and I am an unwilling participant in our national crimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    But there is more. You say the Great Tribulation starts in 70 AD and the Jews are in this Great Tribulation. BUT ....
    1. The Great Tribulation is for the NATIONS for it is over the whole earth. Who persecuted THEM???
    2. The Great Tribulation must be for CHRISTIANS for they are on earth too. The nations AND the Jews persecutes them!

    So the Great Tribulation, according to your logic, is when
    1. the Nations persecute the Jews
    2. The Nations AND the Jews persecute the Christians
    3. God persecutes the Nations, Israel AND the Christians

    C'mon bro.
    I didn't say the Great Tribulation was for the nations. I said it was for the Jewish People. If you wish to show my logic faulty, you have to represent my position properly.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I didn't say the Great Tribulation was for the nations. I said it was for the Jewish People.
    This belief is patently wrong.
    The descriptions in Revelation of the Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls, make it quite clear that all the earth and the oceans are all affected by them.
    Only a group of faithful Christians will be kept in a place of safety, during the 1260 days of the GT. Revelation 12:14

    Re the Jewish State of Israel, I have made it clear in many previous posts, that the Sixth Seal; Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, will virtually wipe them out, with just a remnant of Christian Jews surviving. Jeremiah 10:18, Isaiah 22:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18 and Romans 9:27, are just a few of the prophesies telling us about how God will destroy those apostate and Jesus rejecting people.

    The Great Tribulation is God's punishment on the 'beast' and all who take his mark. Revelation 16:2

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I had a "single" by the Tremeloes a very long time ago. That aside...
    I wasn't "side-stepping" anything. I'm sorry you feel that way. And I'm not sure what you're referring to with respect to my "doctrine on the Devil?"



    I'm not equating the Great Tribulation with the NT era for everybody--just for Israel. It is indeed the longest-lasting period of dispersion they have ever suffered. And indeed, it has threatened their very existence. Such a long time without a homeland endangers them with immersion into other cultures, thus taking away their national distinction. Furthermore, inasmuch as Jews have been regularly persecuted throughout the NT era, there has been the danger of extermination.



    My view of these passages are significantly different than yours. The 70 Weeks led up to the earthly ministry, and death, of Messiah. This ended the 70 Weeks. There followed the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, which was a judgment against Israel in that generation.

    This started the Great Tribulation of the Jewish People in the NT era. They will not be restored as a nation, spiritually, until the Son of Man returns from heaven.



    You sound like you're having a bad day, Walls! As colorful as you describe it, I'm not "squirming" in the least! It's a common refrain. Israel went through the plagues of Egypt together with the Egyptians, but came out of it unscathed--they did not experience the wrath of God. And yet, Egypt did.

    Let's use a more recent example in history. There were Christians, like D. Bonhoeffer, who were in Germany during WW2. Germany suffered the "wrath of God" towards the end of that war, and good men like Bonhoeffer were imprisoned and died. Germany suffered the "wrath of God," and Bonhoeffer also went through this judgment. And yet he did not suffer "God's wrath"--he simply went through it with those who did deserve it.

    The "Great Tribulation" is the punishment of the Jewish People in the NT era, and many Jewish converts to Christianity have had to experience the same national judgment undeservedly. They did not experience the wrath of God, but only the "tribulation" that fell upon the Jewish People because of the majority decision to rebel against God.

    I live in America. We have a democracy here in the US. I have to live by the decisions of a majority that often are anti-God and anti-Christian. Just because I live in America does not mean God is judging me. It only means that God is judging the nation, and I am an unwilling participant in our national crimes.



    I didn't say the Great Tribulation was for the nations. I said it was for the Jewish People. If you wish to show my logic faulty, you have to represent my position properly.
    Strange. And I thought that the Great Tribulation will be worse than Noah's flood and THAT was upon the whole earth (Matt.24:21)

    Let scripture answer whether the great Tribulation is for Israel alone.

    Luke 21:34-35:
    34 "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."


    Revelation 3:10; "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

    Compare Revelation 13:8 with Revelation 14:9-11;
    13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

    14:9 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."


    The Great Tribulation is upon ALL who dwell on earth, and over ALL the earth. It is NOT, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of ISRAEL, who hold the truth in unrighteousness". It is in Romans 1:18, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of MEN, who hold the truth in unrighteousness:" Or what of Romans 2:8-9?

    8 "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile."

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