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Thread: The Prophetic Word

  1. #61
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Strange. And I thought that the Great Tribulation will be worse than Noah's flood and THAT was upon the whole earth (Matt.24:21)

    Let scripture answer whether the great Tribulation is for Israel alone.

    Luke 21:34-35:
    34 "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."


    Revelation 3:10; "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

    Compare Revelation 13:8 with Revelation 14:9-11;
    13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

    14:9 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."


    The Great Tribulation is upon ALL who dwell on earth, and over ALL the earth. It is NOT, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of ISRAEL, who hold the truth in unrighteousness". It is in Romans 1:18, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of MEN, who hold the truth in unrighteousness:" Or what of Romans 2:8-9?

    8 "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile."
    You're assuming that the Great Tribulation is the worse thing that ever happened to the *whole world.* As I said, my position is that the Great Tribulation is the worst tribulation *Israel* has ever suffered. It is the *longest* punishment that Israel has ever suffered, far outdistancing the Babylonian Captivity. It eclipses the 70 Weeks period in which Israel was without a king. The NT Diaspora has threatened the survival of the Jewish People, due to persecution, and the danger of assimilation into foreign peoples.

    The phrase "all that dwell upon the earth" might be better translated "all that dwell across the land." The world, at that time, did not view the earth as a globe, but as a territory, extending within the farthest reaches of their particular region. They did not own telescopes, and did not study astronomy. They were concerned with peoples within reach in terms of trade and warfare.

    When the judgment concerned Israel, "all the land" was a reference to all the land of Israel. When the judgment concerned Rome, it concerned all the land of the Roman Empire. When the judgment concerned the Beast Kingdom, all the land concerned the 10 nation confederation over which the Beast will preside.

    Universality was not even in view in the time of the Flood, which covered all the land within sight, up to the Ararat range. We need to understand the language as used by the people of that time, and not project our own modern scientific understanding upon primitive peoples. They did not use astronomical terms as we use them today.

    There is certainly universal language used of things that were within their reach however. When speaking of the universality of sin, for example, that was certainly within the scope of their experience. Every person they experienced was sinful. The same could be said of death. All men die. It was within the scope of their experience to know that all men they encountered died.

    I would also add the universal language could be used by primitive peoples of creation. Everything they saw, in their experience, was created by God. God created *all* the earth. And yet, they did not see the earth as a globe, but rather, as a land under heaven, within reach of their travels. And the extent of their travels was very limited in ancient times, unless we're talking about historical migrations.

    You may not agree, but at least give it some consideration. This is not an extreme position. It has a lot of history.

  2. #62
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You're assuming that the Great Tribulation is the worse thing that ever happened to the *whole world.* As I said, my position is that the Great Tribulation is the worst tribulation *Israel* has ever suffered. It is the *longest* punishment that Israel has ever suffered, far outdistancing the Babylonian Captivity. It eclipses the 70 Weeks period in which Israel was without a king. The NT Diaspora has threatened the survival of the Jewish People, due to persecution, and the danger of assimilation into foreign peoples.

    The phrase "all that dwell upon the earth" might be better translated "all that dwell across the land." The world, at that time, did not view the earth as a globe, but as a territory, extending within the farthest reaches of their particular region. They did not own telescopes, and did not study astronomy. They were concerned with peoples within reach in terms of trade and warfare.

    When the judgment concerned Israel, "all the land" was a reference to all the land of Israel. When the judgment concerned Rome, it concerned all the land of the Roman Empire. When the judgment concerned the Beast Kingdom, all the land concerned the 10 nation confederation over which the Beast will preside.

    Universality was not even in view in the time of the Flood, which covered all the land within sight, up to the Ararat range. We need to understand the language as used by the people of that time, and not project our own modern scientific understanding upon primitive peoples. They did not use astronomical terms as we use them today.

    There is certainly universal language used of things that were within their reach however. When speaking of the universality of sin, for example, that was certainly within the scope of their experience. Every person they experienced was sinful. The same could be said of death. All men die. It was within the scope of their experience to know that all men they encountered died.

    I would also add the universal language could be used by primitive peoples of creation. Everything they saw, in their experience, was created by God. God created *all* the earth. And yet, they did not see the earth as a globe, but rather, as a land under heaven, within reach of their travels. And the extent of their travels was very limited in ancient times, unless we're talking about historical migrations.

    You may not agree, but at least give it some consideration. This is not an extreme position. It has a lot of history.
    In my journey as student of the Bible I have had to consider all arguments. I will consider yours for it is the first time any student of the Words of God I have met, has tried to detract from what was actually said. Have you noticed the lengths you have to go to to undo the plain language? Ararat is a relatively low mountain. Scripture, in the plainest of language, says of the flood in Genesis Chapter 7;

    v.3 "... to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth."
    v. 4 "... and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
    v.6 "... when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
    v.10 "... that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
    v.12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
    v.19 "And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and ALL the high hills, that were under the WHOLE heaven, were covered.
    v.20 "Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered."
    v.21 "And ALL flesh died that moved upon the earth, ... ."
    v.22 "ALL in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died."
    v.23 "And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark."

    I think, my esteemed brother, that you have somewhat to discuss with your Lord about the way you handle His Words.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    In my journey as student of the Bible I have had to consider all arguments. I will consider yours for it is the first time any student of the Words of God I have met, has tried to detract from what was actually said. Have you noticed the lengths you have to go to to undo the plain language? Ararat is a relatively low mountain. Scripture, in the plainest of language, says of the flood in Genesis Chapter 7;

    v.3 "... to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth."
    v. 4 "... and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
    v.6 "... when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
    v.10 "... that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
    v.12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
    v.19 "And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and ALL the high hills, that were under the WHOLE heaven, were covered.
    v.20 "Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered."
    v.21 "And ALL flesh died that moved upon the earth, ... ."
    v.22 "ALL in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died."
    v.23 "And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark."

    I think, my esteemed brother, that you have somewhat to discuss with your Lord about the way you handle His Words.
    If you haven't heard other positions like mine, you're simply ignorant of them.

    From "The Christian View of Science and Scripture" by Bernard Ramm, 1954:

    "Although many Christians still believe in the universal flood, most of the recent conservative scholarship of the church defends a local flood. Those who defend a local flood believe that the time of the flood was some time prior to 4000 B.C. The waters were supplied by the rains from above and the ocean waters beneath. Some sort of geological phenomenon is indicated by the expression "and the fountains of the deep were broken." This caused the ocean waters to creep up the Mesopotamian valley. The waters carried the ark up to the Ararat range. The Hebrew text does not mean that the ark was deposited on the 17,000 foot summit of the peak, but that the ark rested somewhere on the Ararat range."

    This is a particularly good section from Ramm:

    "Much of the weight of evidence for the local flood consists in showing the imponderable difficulties of a universal flood. Before we critically examine the universal flood interpretation two things must be said:
    (i) It is not a question as to what God can or cannot do. Those who believe in a local flood believe in the omnipotence and power of God as much as any other Christian does. The question is not: "What can God do?" but, "What did God do?" (ii) The problem is one of interpretation, not inspiration. Those who believe in the local flood believe in the divine inspiration of the Bible; otherwise they would believe in no flood. It is improper to affirm that only those who believe in a universal flood really believe in the inspiration of Scripture and the omnipotence of God. It is also improper to imply that those who believe in a local flood do not believe in the omnipotence of God and believe in the peccability of Scripture.
    (a) First of all, in criticism of the universal flood interpretation, this theory cannot demonstrate three of its most necessary propositions.
    (i) It cannot demonstrate that totality of language necessitates a universal flood. Fifteen minutes with a Bible concordance will reveal many instances in which universality of language is used but only a partial quantity is meant. All does not mean every last one in all of its usages. Psa. 22:17 reads: "I may tell all my bones," and hardly means that every single bone of the skeleton stood out prominently. John 4:39 cannot mean that Jesus completely recited the woman's biography. Matt. 3:5 cannot mean that every single individual from Judea and Jordan came to John the Baptist. There are cases where all means all, and every means every, but the context tells us where this is intended. Thus, special reference may be made to Paul's statement in Romans about the universality of sin, yet even that all excludes Jesus Christ. The universality of the flood simply means the universality of the experience of the man who reported it..."

  4. #64
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You're assuming that the Great Tribulation is the worse thing that ever happened to the *whole world.*
    The worst thing to happen to this world so far would be the days of Noah. 8 people survived Gods intervention.
    Jesus will intervene and come immediately after the GT to save the righteous like he did in the days of Noah. Once again only the righteous will prevail.


    Lk 17
    26 And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.



    Matt 25
    31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

    34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    The worst thing to happen to this world so far would be the days of Noah. 8 people survived Gods intervention.
    Jesus will intervene and come immediately after the GT to save the righteous like he did in the days of Noah. Once again only the righteous will prevail.
    Where does the idea of the Lord's fiery wrath; after the GT, come from?
    Revelation 19:11-21 tells us that He will destroy the armies of the world by the Sword of His Word and chain up Satan. The dead will be eaten by carrion birds, not burned up.
    We are clearly told when the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath happens; at the Sixth Seal. Revelation 6:12-17

    The reference to Eternal fire in Matthew 25:41, is to the GWT Judgment. 'prepared for the devil and his angels..... Revelation 20:10

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If you haven't heard other positions like mine, you're simply ignorant of them.
    I am very familiar with your position. I deal with it every day on this Forum. It is the position that men and woman take since Eve. God said something and Eve listened to an angel that said; "did He really mean that". If YOU said "the truck that carried the gold bars went over a cliff and ALL the wheels came off, ALL the men inside died, ALL the gold spilled into the ravine below and ALL the gold was scavenged by local herdsmen and the authorities found that ALL the gold was gone", what would you think of someone saying that you couldn't possibly have meant what you were saying? But this is what dozens of Christians do every day on this Forum, and thousands of Christians, some students of the best Bible Colleges in the world, say every day.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    From "The Christian View of Science and Scripture" by Bernard Ramm, 1954:

    "Although many Christians still believe in the universal flood, most of the recent conservative scholarship of the church defends a local flood. Those who defend a local flood believe that the time of the flood was some time prior to 4000 B.C. The waters were supplied by the rains from above and the ocean waters beneath. Some sort of geological phenomenon is indicated by the expression "and the fountains of the deep were broken." This caused the ocean waters to creep up the Mesopotamian valley. The waters carried the ark up to the Ararat range. The Hebrew text does not mean that the ark was deposited on the 17,000 foot summit of the peak, but that the ark rested somewhere on the Ararat range."

    This is a particularly good section from Ramm:

    "Much of the weight of evidence for the local flood consists in showing the imponderable difficulties of a universal flood. Before we critically examine the universal flood interpretation two things must be said:
    (i) It is not a question as to what God can or cannot do. Those who believe in a local floor believe in the omnipotence and power of God as much as any other Christian does. The question is not: "What can God do?" but, "What did God do?" (ii) The problem is one of interpretation, not inspiration. Those who believe in the local flood believe in the divine inspiration of the Bible; otherwise they would believe in no flood. It is improper to affirm that only those who believe in a universal flood really believe in the inspiration of Scripture and the omnipotence of God. It is also improper to imply that those who believe in a local flood do not believe in the omnipotence of God and believe in the peccability of Scripture.
    (a) First of all, in criticism of the universal flood interpretation, this theory cannot demonstrate three of its most necessary propositions.
    (i) It cannot demonstrate that totality of language necessitates a universal flood. Fifteen minutes with a Bible concordance will reveal many instances in which universality of language is used but only a partial quantity is meant. All does not mean every last one in all of its usages. Psa. 22:17 reads: "I may tell all my bones," and hardly means that every single bone of the skeleton stood out prominently. John 4:39 cannot mean that Jesus completely recited the woman's biography. Matt. 3:5 cannot mean that every single individual from Judea and Jordan came to John the Baptist. There are cases where all means all, and every means every, but the context tells us where this is intended. Thus, special reference may be made to Paul's statement in Romans about the universality of sin, yet even that all excludes Jesus Christ. The universality of the flood simply means the universality of the experience of the man who reported it..."
    To use Ramm as your reference is a new low. His discourse above is contradictory.
    • If his assertion is that scripture IS divinely inspired then is he not bound to take it as it is written. Would the Great God Who wrote it, and Who cannot lie, say "ALL" when He meant "most".
    • If a mere man, like you, were to construct a statement like the one above on the gold truck, and expect to be believed, how much more the Great God Who says what He say and it ALWAYS happens like that.
    • What Biblical transcript indicates a local flood that it must be defended? The language is clear. "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth." (Gen.7:4). Did God make a mistake, or even worse, tell a blatant lie? How does EVERY LIVING SUBSTANCE that God had made DIE in a local flood?
    • Ramm says that it is "a problem of interpretation". What is there to interpret when the statements are plain? Interpretation is for Parables and the like.
    • Ramm says; "This caused the ocean waters to creep up the Mesopotamian valley". But does not water seek its own level? If so, then THE FACE OF THE EARTH was covered with the same water up to whatever level Mr. Ramm chooses. But what level does God choose? Let Him answer for Himself in 2nd Peter 3:5-6;

    5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and IN the water:
    6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."

    Or does this need interpretation? I tell you, Ramm and his allies, some of which are on this Forum, have NOTHING to defend IF HE BELIEVED GOD. But Ramm and co are INFIDELS. They BELIEVE in a partial flood, but there is (i) no evidence of such a thing in God's Word, (ii) every proof that the Word of God says it was over ALL the earth, and (iii) so does science because water seeks its own level. And then there is still the matter of sea fossils on Everest.

    Next, Ramm goes to length to show where else "all" does not mean all. Let me comment.

    Psalm 22 NEEDS interpretation. It is full of pictures. Let's take the immediate context of verse 17:

    12 "Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
    13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
    14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
    15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
    16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
    17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me."


    Were there bulls with gaping mouths that looked like ravening lions on Golgotha? Was our Lord poured out as water? Was His heart wax? Was His strength dried up, and dried up as a potsherd? NO! These are PICTURES that need to be explained. By Ramm's own words they need to be interpreted but in this clear-cut case he takes them literally. Pitiful!

    In John 4:39 our Lord Jesus COULD have told her "all she ever did" via her conscience. John reveals Jesus as God, and does not the Spirit of God "reprove of sin and judgment" (Jn.16:8). So that objection falls away because Ramm does not believe that our Lord Jesus can convict a woman of "ALL she ever did". But the woman did. She called Him a "prophet" - and what do prophets do? Show things hidden to other men!

    Did John Baptist not have the Spirit of Elijah? Was that Spirit that could bring down fire from heaven and cause ONE MAN to kill hundreds of other men single-handed, unable to DRAW ALL the region of Judea and Jordan? Ramm believes in the omnipotence of God - or does he really? Ramm does not believe the Bible, for in Matthew 21:26 Mark 11:32 and Luke 20:6 we learn that, "... for ALL hold John as a prophet", and "... ALL the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet."

    And Ramm is dishonest about Romans. Paul laid forth the universality of sin for ALL IN ADAM (1st Cor.15:22). The "ONE MAN" in Romans 5:12 did NOT pass his sin to Jesus because the inspired record shows that Jesus was NOT seed of Adam? So, this leaves "ALL" meaning "ALL" - as the bible says. Jesus is "Seed of the WOMAN" (Gen.3:15; 1st Cor.11:12). His genealogy in Luke traces Him back to Adam, but the genealogy in Luke is of MARY via NATHAN!

  7. #67
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Ramm continues:

    "When God tells the Israelites He will put the fear of them upon the people under the whole heaven, it refers to all the peoples known to the Israelites (Deut. 2:25). When Gen. 41:57 states that all countries came to Egypt to buy grain, it can only mean all peoples known to the Egyptians. Ahab certainly did not look for Elijah in every country of the earth even though the text says he looked for Elijah so thoroughly that he skipped no nation or kingdom (1 Kings 18:10). From the vantage point of the observer of the flood all mountains were covered, and all flesh died. We must concur that:

    'The language of the sacred historian by no means necessarily implies that the flood overspread the whole earth. Universal terms are frequently used in a partial and restricted sense in Scripture.' 90

    "The ark had a draught of about 15 cubits (Gen. 7:20) and so the writer inferred that the water rose that high above the mountains because the ark did not ground on any of them. The highest mountain in the region was Ararat at about 17,000 feet; the Himalayan range rises to 29,000 feet. Do those who defend a universal flood wish to assert that the waters mounted to a depth of six miles?...

    "(iii) There is no known geological data to support those who defend a universal flood...
    (b) The problems in connection with a universal flood are enormous. We can but summarize here the lengthy refutations found in commentaries and Bible dictionaries and encyclopedias. One point must be clearly understood before we commence these criticisms: the flood is recorded as a natural-supernatural occurrence. It does not appear as a pure and stupendous miracle. The natural and the supernatural work side by side and hand in hand. If one wishes to retain a universal flood, it must be understood that a series of stupendous miracles is required. Further, one cannot beg off with pious statements that God can do anything. We concur enthusiastically with Smith when he wrote:

    'That the Omnipotent could effect such a work [a universal flood], none can doubt; but we are not at liberty thus to invent miracles, and the narrative in the Book of Genesis plainly assigns two natural causes for the production of the diluvial waters.'

    "(I) There is the problem of the amount of water required by the universal flood... To cover the highest mountains would require eight times more water than we now have. It would have involved a great creation of water to have covered the entire globe, but no such creative act is hinted at in the Scriptures."

    Brother, I actually believe that you are assuming the narrative is to be interpreted hyper-literally, when no such use is required, either in contemporary language use or in the ancient culture's language. I believe the Scriptures indicate that the work of creation was done in 6 days, and that in Noah's time the creation of such a vast amount of water would not just constitute a miracle--it would constitute a 2nd creation!

    So I don't agree with your assignment of my beliefs as liberal or diminishing of God's word. I actually believe that you are engaging in a form of dogmatism, where your particular view of the Bible takes on more importance than other equally-important truths, such as Christian unity, Christ's love, and correctability. Unless you have these other things, you will use your view of Scriptures like an axe to bloody fellow believers, who equally hold to God's supernatural existence and miraculous abilities.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Ramm continues:

    "When God tells the Israelites He will put the fear of them upon the people under the whole heaven, it refers to all the peoples known to the Israelites (Deut. 2:25). When Gen. 41:57 states that all countries came to Egypt to buy grain, it can only mean all peoples known to the Egyptians. Ahab certainly did not look for Elijah in every country of the earth even though the text says he looked for Elijah so thoroughly that he skipped no nation or kingdom (1 Kings 18:10). From the vantage point of the observer of the flood all mountains were covered, and all flesh died. We must concur that:

    'The language of the sacred historian by no means necessarily implies that the flood overspread the whole earth. Universal terms are frequently used in a partial and restricted sense in Scripture.' 90

    "The ark had a draught of about 15 cubits (Gen. 7:20) and so the writer inferred that the water rose that high above the mountains because the ark did not ground on any of them. The highest mountain in the region was Ararat at about 17,000 feet; the Himalayan range rises to 29,000 feet. Do those who defend a universal flood wish to assert that the waters mounted to a depth of six miles?...

    "(iii) There is no known geological data to support those who defend a universal flood...
    (b) The problems in connection with a universal flood are enormous. We can but summarize here the lengthy refutations found in commentaries and Bible dictionaries and encyclopedias. One point must be clearly understood before we commence these criticisms: the flood is recorded as a natural-supernatural occurrence. It does not appear as a pure and stupendous miracle. The natural and the supernatural work side by side and hand in hand. If one wishes to retain a universal flood, it must be understood that a series of stupendous miracles is required. Further, one cannot beg off with pious statements that God can do anything. We concur enthusiastically with Smith when he wrote:

    'That the Omnipotent could effect such a work [a universal flood], none can doubt; but we are not at liberty thus to invent miracles, and the narrative in the Book of Genesis plainly assigns two natural causes for the production of the diluvial waters.'

    "(I) There is the problem of the amount of water required by the universal flood... To cover the highest mountains would require eight times more water than we now have. It would have involved a great creation of water to have covered the entire globe, but no such creative act is hinted at in the Scriptures."

    Brother, I actually believe that you are assuming the narrative is to be interpreted hyper-literally, when no such use is required, either in contemporary language us or in the ancient culture's language. I believe the Scriptures indicate that the work of creation was done in 6 days, and that in Noah's time the creation of such a vast amount of water would not just constitute a miracle--it would constitute a 2nd creation!

    So I don't agree with your assignment of my beliefs as liberal or diminishing of God's word. I actually believe that you are engaging in a form of dogmatism, where your particular view of the Bible takes on more importance than other equally-important truths, such as Christian unity, Christ's love, and correctability. Unless you have these other things, you will use your view of Scriptures like an axe to bloody fellow believers, who equally hold to God's supernatural existence and miraculous abilities.
    OK. I hear you. But why the designation "hyper-literally". Is is not just plain "literal"? You have just posted two postings with your thoughts. May i assign them to allegory and say that you have not meant what you say?

    While you decide on that, where shall all the water of the oceans go on the New Earth (Rev.21:1)? Or has God made another mathematical miscalculation which He cannot cope with?

    Consider this. In Genesis 1:2 the earth was covered with water. God dispensed with the water by creating a canopy of water above the earth and the sea below. In Genesis 7 NOTHING NEW was needed. The Greenhouse Canopy crashed to earth in rain and the sea was stirred up beyond its God given boundaries. Has He not set the quantity and boundaries of the sea? Proverbs 8:23-29 says;

    23 "I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
    24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
    25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
    26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
    27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
    28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
    29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth
    :"


    You see brother, in one breath you and Ramm admit to God's ability and omnipotence, but in the next you say it was not logistically possible to cover the earth. But God said in plain language that He did cover the earth with water, and goes further to say that He has set boundaries for the water. On the New Earth God has three possibilities as the Omnipotent.
    1. He can again form a canopy of all water which would give the earth a very clement climate - a Greenhouse effect
    2. He can transport the water away from the planet - a veritable "drop" in the vastness of the universe
    3. He can make it disappear. He made all the matter in the universe out of nothing. Can He not reverse it?

    God does not deign to tell us. But that which He does tell us, let us believe it unless He obviously means a picture or Parable. Come, let us agree that OUR GOD IS ABLE TO DO WHAT HE SAYS - and it is our job to BELIEVE Him - not find a reason why it was not possible.

  9. #69
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Where does the idea of the Lord's fiery wrath; after the GT, come from?

    The fiery judgment is Jesus coming like the days of Noah immediately after the GT.
    This time God intervenes in flaming fire and not water , to carry out his judgment and destruction on the ungodly.

    2pet 3
    3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.


    2Thess 1
    5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.



    Jesus is coming like the days of Noah to destroy the ungodly and glorify all those who have believed.
    Immediately after the GT we will all stand before his great white throne as shown below...,



    Rev 7
    9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
    “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying,
    “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”



    Rev 21
    Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
    5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said,
    “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
    8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars,
    their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”



    The reference to Eternal fire in Matthew 25:41, is to the GWT Judgment. 'prepared for the devil and his angels..... Revelation 20:10

    I agree.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    Since God's word says He finished with creating the universe after the 6th day, it doesn't seem logical that God is saying that He created 8 times the amount of water on earth in order to satisfy your need to interpret the Flood hyperliterally! It is way easier to understand all of the data with a local flood.
    Gen 1

    9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.


    There was enough water to cover all the dry land once upon a time. The fountains of the deep were opened releasing it in Noahs day.


    The main point of the flood was to wipe out all the ungodly.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Gen 1

    9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.


    There was enough water to cover all the dry land once upon a time. The fountains of the deep were opened releasing it in Noahs day.


    The main point of the flood was to wipe out all the ungodly.
    Actually, I think there is a finite amount of water that God put upon and around the earth. It assumes different forms but the volume is roughly the same. I believe Ramm when he said that it would require 8 times the volume of water to cover the highest mountain ranges. That is like creating the world all over again. And I don't believe God had to do that.

    And I don't find it logical that God would so completely destroy everything He created, which is what would happen if miles of water covered all of the vegetation and creatures. Even the fish would die with such an influx of water. Bottomfish would be crushed. Sealife would not have what it has today.

    Creatures have different habitat requirements, because God created a diversity of life to live everywhere. To homogenize the entire earth environment to all be water in effect creates a single habitat for all living things, creatures and vegetation. They would perish, not just because they could not live in that environment, but also because their food sources would be destroyed.

    No, I think God used Noah as a representation of what God plans to do with every man in the day of his judgment. He will either be enabled to remain, and live forever. Or, he will be removed forever, like a forest that is burned down.

    God will have a pure earth. And the Flood story illustrates that.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Thanks Walls and Randyk for your interesting but useless discussion about Noah's Flood.
    But what the Lord has told us He will use next time to reset our civilization, will affect all the globe. Isaiah 66:15-17, Zephaniah 3:8. 2 Peter 3:7

    Jeffweeder has the idea that this forthcoming worldwide disaster by fire, will come at the glorious Return of Jesus.
    That idea is refuted by the 3 plain descriptions of the Return, which never say that; Zechariah 14:3-7, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21
    Your scriptures do not say they will occur at Jesus' Return. They do say things like; The Lord is coming in fire, but we know from many prophesies that He will not be seen on that terrible Day. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4, and in 2 Thess 1:6-10 we see that Jesus will be revealed to His own people then, not to the world yet.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Thanks Walls and Randyk for your interesting but useless discussion about Noah's Flood.
    But what the Lord has told us He will use next time to reset our civilization, will affect all the globe. Isaiah 66:15-17, Zephaniah 3:8. 2 Peter 3:7

    Jeffweeder has the idea that this forthcoming worldwide disaster by fire, will come at the glorious Return of Jesus.
    That idea is refuted by the 3 plain descriptions of the Return, which never say that; Zechariah 14:3-7, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21
    Your scriptures do not say they will occur at Jesus' Return. They do say things like; The Lord is coming in fire, but we know from many prophesies that He will not be seen on that terrible Day. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4, and in 2 Thess 1:6-10 we see that Jesus will be revealed to His own people then, not to the world yet.
    I can't agree that serious discussions about what the Bible means is "useless," and it's a bit on the rude side for you to say that. However, I understand that it is useless for you. Why then do you thank Walls and me, if it's useless to you? Are you just being sarcastic? Are you entertained by it--at least that may have some redeeming value?

    But I still can't see your fascination with the solar flare phenomena? What makes you think that is what God will use? We see in Revelation references to earthquakes, lightnings, and blood waters? We hear of war--what's with the focus on emp's?

    If you have a revelation from God, there should be accompanying phenomena to prove your inspiration. One, it should edify--I don't see that happening. Two, we should see signs and wonders--I don't see that happening either.

    So either you're just leaping at a possible scenario, or you're being inspired by something other than God. If you have the right spirit, I should be able to see it! It doesn't help to call my conversation "useless," and your conversation "of God."

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I can't agree that serious discussions about what the Bible means is "useless," and it's a bit on the rude side for you to say that. However, I understand that it is useless for you. Why then do you thank Walls and me, if it's useless to you? Are you just being sarcastic? Are you entertained by it--at least that may have some redeeming value?

    But I still can't see your fascination with the solar flare phenomena? What makes you think that is what God will use? We see in Revelation references to earthquakes, lightnings, and blood waters? We hear of war--what's with the focus on emp's?

    If you have a revelation from God, there should be accompanying phenomena to prove your inspiration. One, it should edify--I don't see that happening. Two, we should see signs and wonders--I don't see that happening either.

    So either you're just leaping at a possible scenario, or you're being inspired by something other than God. If you have the right spirit, I should be able to see it! It doesn't help to call my conversation "useless," and your conversation "of God."
    I called your conversation with Walls interesting because I like to read such discussions. I called it useless because there is no way a final answer can be reached.

    I will continue to warn about a Coronal Mass Ejection as the means the Lord will change this world and set the scene for all the rest that must happen; leading up to the Return of Jesus. A CME of unprecedented magnitude, Joel 2:2b, Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Psalms 50:1-3, is the only natural event that will literally fulfil all the cosmic and earthly effects as prophesied. It has to be a natural event, so the ungodly survivors can carry on in their godlessness and eventually worship the 'beast'.

    That many can't see this scenario, is also prophesied; Isaiah 29:9-12, Matthew 11:25, Jeremiah 6:10, +, and only after it happens, will most people finally understand. Isaiah 35:4-5, Jeremiah 23:20, Isaiah 32:3-4

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    A "new creation" means, to me, not a re-creation of the universe, but rather, a "reform," or "regeneration," of the universe. I believe God when He said that He made the universe "in the beginning," and finished his work by the 6th day. A "new" heavens, and a "new" earth, can refer to something "renewed."

    I refer to your interpretation as "hyperliteral" because that is exactly how I see it from my perspective. The literal understanding would be understood as that contemporary culture would understand it, since it was written *in their culture.* They would not be speaking in astronomical terms. No, their sense of universality would have to do with experience--their experience in particular. Everything within the realm of their immediate experience would indicate "everything." Outside of their own personal experience are other things.

    If I looked up into the sky and saw a huge black cloud, I would run for cover. And as the rained poured down, I would express that "everything under the sky is flooding." That doesn't refer to the *globe* of the earth, but only my own personal experience.

    To be "hyperliteral" and "dogmatic" is to then require that my comments actually mean that the entire globe has to be saturated with water. It is putting words in my mouth, or interpreting those words in a way I didn't actually mean. Hence, your view to me is "hyperliteral."



    WRONG! That is the exact opposite of what Ram wrote! He said there is no question about what God *could* do. But in light of the Scriptures providing a naturalistic explanation for the Flood, we must assume that this Flood had naturalistic causes, and did not require a "stupendous miracle."



    Again, Ram did *not* say God is incapable of stupendous miracles. It is a question of interpretation, in the context of that culture. People at that time saw the heaven above and the earth below. The waters below were seas, lakes, and rivers. The waters above were the clouds, or fog. Stating the fact that God created this has nothing to do with the subject at hand, and I'm not clear why you even mention it?

    Since God's word says He finished with creating the universe after the 6th day, it doesn't seem logical that God is saying that He created 8 times the amount of water on earth in order to satisfy your need to interpret the Flood hyperliterally! It is way easier to understand all of the data with a local flood.

    That region has evidence of a great flood in this time period. In other parts of the world, there are creatures and habitat that have never been disturbed by a universal Flood.

    It makes much more sense to see God use the Flood story as an example for the human race as to what God intends for Man after the Fall. If there is not repentance, judgment will follow. And as the world gets worse, and rejects God's offer of clemency, universal judgment will come.

    I believe God took Noah and the creatures in his immediate environment and saved them to show the whole world that He had no intention of destroying man or the creatures on earth. On the other hand, rejecting and opposing God will result in severe judgment and death.
    OK. The matter of the volume of water has been thrashed out. Let the reader judge. I guess that according to Ramm, there was lots of high ground available for a portion of the world's population to survive on, but the murder rate for these choice bits of ground was rather high. Be that as it may, I would like only to comment on your (and Ramm's) allusions to a "cultural understand" of the Biblical language. This I fully reject because that would mean that God wrote His record ONLY for a certain culture and a certain time, leaving the rest of mankind to study the "culture" that had long since passed away. This is a standard argument of men claiming "higher revelation" who would like to lord over the laity. It was the tactic of the Roman Church. And it is the tactic of every cult leader. Moses did not write about the flood to one culture. He wrote it for every man who would ever open this most sold, and most studied Book in the world, IN EVERY AGE AND CULTURE.

    I vehemently maintain that the inspired record is so constructed that anyone with high-school language abilities IN ANY CULTURE ON EARTH can read the words of scripture and understand the plain statements. And any man or woman who humbly and prayerfully approaches God's Book with the intent to take it as it is, will receive the necessary light as to its meaning. That is why we need to take it as it is. Trying to outguess God as to the volume of water needed to cover Everest is the fruit of NOT BELIEVING what God has chosen to write.

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