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Thread: The Prophetic Word

  1. #76
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. I hear you. But why the designation "hyper-literally". Is is not just plain "literal"? You have just posted two postings with your thoughts. May i assign them to allegory and say that you have not meant what you say?

    While you decide on that, where shall all the water of the oceans go on the New Earth (Rev.21:1)? Or has God made another mathematical miscalculation which He cannot cope with?
    A "new creation" means, to me, not a re-creation of the universe, but rather, a "reform," or "regeneration," of the universe. I believe God when He said that He made the universe "in the beginning," and finished his work by the 6th day. A "new" heavens, and a "new" earth, can refer to something "renewed."

    I refer to your interpretation as "hyper-literal" because that is exactly how I see it from my perspective. The literal understanding would be understood as that contemporary culture would understand it, since it was written *in their culture.* They would not be speaking in astronomical terms. No, their sense of universality would have to do with experience--their experience in particular. Everything within the realm of their immediate experience would indicate "everything." Outside of their own personal experience are other things.

    If I looked up into the sky and saw a huge black cloud, I would run for cover. And as the rain poured down, I would express that "everything under the sky is flooding." That doesn't refer to the *globe* of the earth, but only my own personal experience.

    To be "hyper-literal" and "dogmatic" is to then require that my comments actually mean that the entire globe has to be saturated with water. It is putting words in my mouth, or interpreting those words in a way I didn't actually mean. Hence, your view to me is "hyper-literal."

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    Consider this. In Genesis 1:2 the earth was covered with water. God dispensed with the water by creating a canopy of water above the earth and the sea below. In Genesis 7 NOTHING NEW was needed. The Greenhouse Canopy crashed to earth in rain and the sea was stirred up beyond its God given boundaries. Has He not set the quantity and boundaries of the sea? Proverbs 8:23-29 says;

    23 "I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
    24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
    25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
    26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
    27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
    28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
    29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth
    :"


    You see brother, in one breath you and Ram admit to God's ability and omnipotence, but in the next you say it was not logistically possible to cover the earth.
    WRONG! That is the exact opposite of what Ram wrote! He said there is no question about what God *could* do. But in light of the Scriptures providing a naturalistic explanation for the Flood, we must assume that this Flood had naturalistic causes, and did not require a "stupendous miracle."

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    But God said in plain language that He did cover the earth with water, and goes further to say that He has set boundaries for the water. On the New Earth God has three possibilities as the Omnipotent.
    1. He can again form a canopy of all water which would give the earth a very clement climate - a Greenhouse effect
    2. He can transport the water away from the planet - a veritable "drop" in the vastness of the universe
    3. He can make it disappear. He made all the matter in the universe out of nothing. Can He not reverse it?

    God does not deign to tell us. But that which He does tell us, let us believe it unless He obviously means a picture or Parable. Come, let us agree that OUR GOD IS ABLE TO DO WHAT HE SAYS - and it is our job to BELIEVE Him - not find a reason why it was not possible.
    Again, Ram did *not* say God is incapable of stupendous miracles. It is a question of interpretation, in the context of that culture. People at that time saw the heaven above and the earth below. The waters below were seas, lakes, and rivers. The waters above were the clouds, or fog. Stating the fact that God created this has nothing to do with the subject at hand, and I'm not clear why you even mention it?

    Since God's word says He finished with creating the universe after the 6th day, it doesn't seem logical that God is saying that He created 8 times the amount of water on earth in order to satisfy your need to interpret the Flood hyper-literally! It is way easier to understand all of the data with a local flood.

    That region has evidence of a great flood in this time period. In other parts of the world, there are creatures and habitat that have never been disturbed by a universal Flood.

    It makes much more sense to see God use the Flood story as an example for the human race as to what God intends for Man after the Fall. If there is not repentance, judgment will follow. And as the world gets worse, and rejects God's offer of clemency, universal judgment will come.

    I believe God took Noah and the creatures in his immediate environment and saved them to show the whole world that He had no intention of destroying man or the creatures on earth. On the other hand, rejecting and opposing God will result in severe judgment and death.

  2. #77
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I called your conversation with Walls interesting because I like to read such discussions. I called it useless because there is no way a final answer can be reached.

    I will continue to warn about a Coronal Mass Ejection as the means the Lord will change this world and set the scene for all the rest that must happen; leading up to the Return of Jesus. A CME of unprecedented magnitude, Joel 2:2b, Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Psalms 50:1-3, is the only natural event that will literally fulfil all the cosmic and earthly effects as prophesied. It has to be a natural event, so the ungodly survivors can carry on in their godlessness and eventually worship the 'beast'.

    That many can't see this scenario, is also prophesied; Isaiah 29:9-12, Matthew 11:25, Jeremiah 6:10, +, and only after it happens, will most people finally understand. Isaiah 35:4-5, Jeremiah 23:20, Isaiah 32:3-4
    We *cannot* make the assumption that these OT passages refer to an EMP because the authors were speaking in the language of their own time, and had no scientific knowledge that would warrant that kind of understanding. Their likely understanding would involve things that they'd already experienced in their own day, being described often in metaphorical language.

    I appreciate that you like to listen in on discussions, but why indulge in something that has no redeeming value? I, however, believe that *any questions* we seriously engage in are worthwhile, if for no other reason that the person himself or herself has *infinite value* to God. Their interests are God's interests.

    But I do appreciate the fact you are somewhat intrigued by our discussions. And I certainly don't discount the *possibility* that a CME will take place on a large scale. I just can't say that the Scriptures specifically prescribe that. To get too caught up in a single prophetic interpretation is unbalanced, to me. On the other hand, your focus on divine judgment has great value, I believe. And I do appreciate that.

  3. #78
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. The matter of the volume of water has been thrashed out. Let the reader judge. I guess that according to Ramm, there was lots of high ground available for a portion of the world's population to survive on, but the murder rate for these choice bits of ground was rather high. Be that as it may, I would like only to comment on your (and Ramm's) allusions to a "cultural understand" of the Biblical language. This I fully reject because that would mean that God wrote His record ONLY for a certain culture and a certain time, leaving the rest of mankind to study the "culture" that had long since passed away. This is a standard argument of men claiming "higher revelation" who would like to lord over the laity. It was the tactic of the Roman Church. And it is the tactic of every cult leader. Moses did not write about the flood to one culture. He wrote it for every man who would ever open this most sold, and most studied Book in the world, IN EVERY AGE AND CULTURE.
    The book was written probably by Moses in his *time.* And he wrote it in his own *language.* And he wrote it for the *Hebrew people.* The fact the book has been translated and given to the world by God does not alter these facts. If we wish to understand the Bible for ourselves, we do not read our language, culture, and time back into Genesis. We try to learn the time that it was written in the language it was written in, and the people for whom it was written. It is important to understand Ancient Near East Culture to properly understand Genesis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    I vehemently maintain that the inspired record is so constructed that anyone with high-school language abilities IN ANY CULTURE ON EARTH can read the words of scripture and understand the plain statements. And any man or woman who humbly and prayerfully approaches God's Book with the intent to take it as it is, will receive the necessary light as to its meaning. That is why we need to take it as it is. Trying to outguess God as to the volume of water needed to cover Everest is the fruit of NOT BELIEVING what God has chosen to write.
    No, that is just using the "science" portion of our brains to exercise common sense, which is what God called us to when He said, "Come let us reason together." The wisdom books recommend common sense, or "wisdom," in the exercise of our faculties in a fruitful way. To bypass sound judgment, and to reject scientific knowledge, borders on cultism. "Suspend judgment and follow me."

    Nobody said that people across the world were left stranded in the tops of mountain ranges. That is pure sensationalism! What Ram said was that *conservative scholars* tend to view the Flood as a supernatural event from God, and yet with naturalistic causes. And this book was written back in the 50s!

    A local flood of gigantic proportions would not have to cover high mountain ranges to submerge the territory we speak of. We are talking about the destruction of an early culture out of which the world emerged. A flood that stretched as far as the eye could see, in all directions, could destroy an entire civilization in that region! A flood high enough to cover all local mountains, which in some areas were not extremely high mountain ranges, would kill all the creatures in that area.

    None of this violates the biblical account. The use of universal language is experience-oriented, and not an astronomical statement. For you to read astronomy back into the biblical record is, I believe, wrong. But I think we've said our peace.

  4. #79
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The book was written probably by Moses in his *time.* And he wrote it in his own *language.* And he wrote it for the *Hebrew people.* The fact the book has been translated and given to the world by God does not alter these facts. If we wish to understand the Bible for ourselves, we do not read our language, culture, and time back into Genesis. We try to learn the time that it was written in the language it was written in, and the people for whom it was written. It is important to understand Ancient Near East Culture to properly understand Genesis.
    That is where we differ greatly. You attribute Genesis to Moses within his culture and language. I attribute it to the breathing of the Most High for all men in all ages. It is great loss to all when a Christian attributes the INSPIRED RECORD to mere fallen men within a short span of time and culture. It is also the weapon of men who would insert their own ideas to the subterfuge of other men.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, that is just using the "science" portion of our brains to exercise common sense, which is what God called us to when He said, "Come let us reason together." The wisdom books recommend common sense, or "wisdom," in the exercise of our faculties in a fruitful way. To bypass sound judgment, and to reject scientific knowledge, borders on cultism. "Suspend judgment and follow me."

    Nobody said that people across the world were left stranded in the tops of mountain ranges. That is pure sensationalism! What Ram said was that *conservative scholars* tend to view the Flood as a supernatural event from God, and yet with naturalistic causes. And this book was written back in the 50s!

    A local flood of gigantic proportions would not have to cover high mountain ranges to submerge the territory we speak of. We are talking about the destruction of an early culture out of which the world emerged. A flood that stretched as far as the eye could see, in all directions, could destroy an entire civilization in that region! A flood high enough to cover all local mountains, which in some areas were not extremely high mountain ranges, would kill all the creatures in that area.

    None of this violates the biblical account. The use of universal language is experience-oriented, and not an astronomical statement. For you to read astronomy back into the biblical record is, I believe, wrong. But I think we've said our peace.
    The plain language of the Lord as He inspired Moses, David, Solomon and Peter is enough for me. I do not have to change a thing. The whole earth, to a depth of fifteen cubits over the highest mountain, was covered by the flood of Noah. That is very specific! Scripture says so, and I defend that to the uttermost. You and Mr. Ramm can contend, but you have only YOUR INVENTION to support you. I have multiple statements to the effect, and you have NOT ONE for yours. And so it will be for ALL scripture. Try to drag it down to a human level if you wish, but without me.

  5. #80
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    That is where we differ greatly. You attribute Genesis to Moses within his culture and language. I attribute it to the breathing of the Most High for all men in all ages. It is great loss to all when a Christian attributes the INSPIRED RECORD to mere fallen men within a short span of time and culture. It is also the weapon of men who would insert their own ideas to the subterfuge of other men.
    That is such an ignorant statement I can hardly comment on it! I am *not* arguing against the inspiration of Scriptures! I'm arguing about *how* God communicated that message to us! It began--it clearly began--by God communicating in the Hebrew language of Moses, in his time, to the people of his time--Israel! If you want to go on slandering me, as if I don't believe in the inspiration of Scripture, because I don't think Moses had the US or the UK in mind, fine. That's your problem. But that's silly...unbelievably silly and immature.

    The Prophets, including Moses, did not always fully appreciate the extent to which their prophecies would go, or precisely how they would be fulfilled...

    1 Peter 1.10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

    To be fair, as much as I may disagree with you on a number of issues, I believe you are a gifted teacher, and handle the Scriptures respectfully. But you seem to have a mountain of pride when others disagree with you. That's unfortunate, because a little humility, or a little tolerance, will go a long ways to making your ministry of the word more effective and more expansive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    The plain language of the Lord as He inspired Moses, David, Solomon and Peter is enough for me. I do not have to change a thing. The whole earth, to a depth of fifteen cubits over the highest mountain, was covered by the flood of Noah. That is very specific! Scripture says so, and I defend that to the uttermost. You and Mr. Ramm can contend, but you have only YOUR INVENTION to support you. I have multiple statements to the effect, and you have NOT ONE for yours. And so it will be for ALL scripture. Try to drag it down to a human level if you wish, but without me.

  6. #81
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That is such an ignorant statement I can hardly comment on it! I am *not* arguing against the inspiration of Scriptures! I'm arguing about *how* God communicated that message to us! It began--it clearly began--by God communicating in the Hebrew language of Moses, in his time, to the people of his time--Israel! If you want to go on slandering me, as if I don't believe in the inspiration of Scripture, because I don't think Moses had the US or the UK in mind, fine. That's your problem. But that's silly...unbelievably silly and immature.

    The Prophets, including Moses, did not always fully appreciate the extent to which their prophecies would go, or precisely how they would be fulfilled...

    1 Peter 1.10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

    To be fair, as much as I may disagree with you on a number of issues, I believe you are a gifted teacher, and handle the Scriptures respectfully. But you seem to have a mountain of pride when others disagree with you. That's unfortunate, because a little humility, or a little tolerance, will go a long ways to making your ministry of the word more effective and more expansive.
    I hear your judgment. I have no comment.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That is such an ignorant statement I can hardly comment on it! I am *not* arguing against the inspiration of Scriptures! I'm arguing about *how* God communicated that message to us! It began--it clearly began--by God communicating in the Hebrew language of Moses, in his time, to the people of his time--Israel! If you want to go on slandering me, as if I don't believe in the inspiration of Scripture, because I don't think Moses had the US or the UK in mind, fine. That's your problem. But that's silly...unbelievably silly and immature.
    I don't think you are arguing against the inspiration of scripture.

    The Prophets, including Moses, did not always fully appreciate the extent to which their prophecies would go, or precisely how they would be fulfilled...
    However this is where your thinking starts to go wrong.
    It does NOT matter in the slightest how much Moses, or any other prophet UNDERSTOOD or fully appreciated the prophecy they were given. It is this REQUIREMENT of yours that the prophet given the prophecy MUST understand it for it to be valid is where you are then going against the PURPOSE of the prophecy.
    Daniel noted himself when he did not understand, and he prayed for understanding, and gained some.

    Now I underlined the issue, for you think it is RELEVANT that Moses must have the US or the UK in mind when stating the Word of God, in order for it to be about the US or the UK.
    Prophecy is NOT about the mind of the prophet BUT about the mind of God. It is therefore about what He is revealing of His mind that we should be focused upon.

    However having said all that I believe that God's word was to have had meaning for the people it was given to even when they did not understand everything.
    This though comes back to how well we can understand someone from a culture and place dislocated by thousands of years and language.

    There are things in the NT which help us to understand things in the OT, but your usage of seeing a black cloud and so fleeing from rain would NOT lead you to write hyperbole that the whole world is flooded, especially when this is something handed down orally (as best as we can understand) and that Shem was alive at the time of Abraham and could have told him personally what happened. Moses was only the 4th generation from Abraham:
    Gen 15:16* And they shall come back here in the fourth generation...

    So Abraham could have heard it from an eye-witness (Shem) and could then have passed this on to his son(s) and grandsons - he lived to 175 and Isaac was born when he was 100, and Jacob (Israel) when Isaac was 60 (Gen 25:26), so Abraham was alive and would live for a further 15 years, which means both Esau and Jacob could hear the story of the flood from Abraham, who could have heard it direct from Shem. Moses was the son of Amram and Jochebed, Amram was the son of Kohath and Jochebed his sister (Exodus 6:16 - 20). Kohath the son of Levi.
    Again this means an oral passing down of the story is not problematic.

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