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Thread: The Prophetic Word

  1. #1
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    The Prophetic Word

    Bible prophecy is a very controversial subject and not easy to understand.
    1 Corinthians 14:22b says that prophecy is intended to inform Christian believers.

    But the many and varied discussions, theories and doctrines point up the disturbing fact of how we Christians often have opposing views of what God has planned for our future.
    There is only one sequence, one Plan that will actually unfold and that could be quite soon. So one view is right and all the rest are wrong.
    Basically; we can say that the right way, is the one that conforms to scripture. But as Isaiah 28:13 says about prophecy: Here a little, there a little..... making it difficult to work out a correct sequence.

    Revelation does give us that in the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, then the glorious Return of Jesus and after He has reigned for a 1000 years comes the final Judgement, then Eternity.
    Revelation also is the only Book that warns us to not mess around with it. Revelation 22:18-19

    What is described in the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, are things that can and will be literally fulfilled. [Allowing for the few metaphorical descriptions; like locusts in Rev 9:7]
    So; with the Seals, we are told that when Jesus ascended to heaven, He was found worthy to open the Seals and He commenced to do so. Revelation 6:1
    It should be clear to all that the first five Seals are open. We HAVE had wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters aplenty and the proof is the Fifth Seal, where the souls of all the Christian martyrs since Stephen are kept under the heavenly Altar. Revelation 6:9-10

    Therefore, the next prophesied event must be the Sixth Seal. Revelation 6:12-17
    We have been given plenty of warning and details about this sudden and shocking Day that the Lord will instigate. It will change the world and interestingly, Isaiah 29:23-24 says; Then the Lord's children, the work of His hands, [who are born again Christians] will praise Him for their protection and only then, will we all fully understand His plans and purposes.
    Ref: logostelos.info

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Agree with you in general, but the first question you haven't dealt with is why some part is literal and some is symbolic, so clearly the seals are full of symbolism, yet you would have us take them as literal. It is upon this that most disagreements occur.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Bible prophecy is a very controversial subject and not easy to understand.
    1 Corinthians 14:22b says that prophecy is intended to inform Christian believers.

    But the many and varied discussions, theories and doctrines point up the disturbing fact of how we Christians often have opposing views of what God has planned for our future.
    There is only one sequence, one Plan that will actually unfold and that could be quite soon. So one view is right and all the rest are wrong.
    Basically; we can say that the right way, is the one that conforms to scripture. But as Isaiah 28:13 says about prophecy: Here a little, there a little..... making it difficult to work out a correct sequence.

    Revelation does give us that in the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, then the glorious Return of Jesus and after He has reigned for a 1000 years comes the final Judgement, then Eternity.
    Revelation also is the only Book that warns us to not mess around with it. Revelation 22:18-19

    What is described in the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, are things that can and will be literally fulfilled. [Allowing for the few metaphorical descriptions; like locusts in Rev 9:7]
    So; with the Seals, we are told that when Jesus ascended to heaven, He was found worthy to open the Seals and He commenced to do so. Revelation 6:1
    It should be clear to all that the first five Seals are open. We HAVE had wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters aplenty and the proof is the Fifth Seal, where the souls of all the Christian martyrs since Stephen are kept under the heavenly Altar. Revelation 6:9-10

    Therefore, the next prophesied event must be the Sixth Seal. Revelation 6:12-17
    We have been given plenty of warning and details about this sudden and shocking Day that the Lord will instigate. It will change the world and interestingly, Isaiah 29:23-24 says; Then the Lord's children, the work of His hands, [who are born again Christians] will praise Him for their protection and only then, will we all fully understand His plans and purposes.
    Ref: logostelos.info
    Prophecy is of God. We must study it and try to fathom the meaning. Every man, firm or nation has a system in place to govern now and to set forth how things will be governed in the future. So also the Lord. And the Lord's prophecy is defined in 1 Corinthians 14:3. "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort." The Old Testament prophets were no different. They spoke to an audience, mostly Israel, but in selected scriptures to the nations (e.g. Daniel), "exhort" them to forsake wicked ways and embrace godly ways, to "edify", or build their confidence in the Almighty, and to "comfort" them with an advantageous end, or with a recovery if the worst came to the worst. So, in reading your comments of prophecy, I ask myself, do I walk away "edified", "exhorted" and "comforted"?

    Prophecy to the Nations is NOT interesting to the Nations themselves because they dismiss Christ, God and His Word. But it is very interesting to us. We live among the nations and their end is of great import to us. Will they forever continue in corruption and injustice, or, is there and end? Is their end comforting and edifying to me?

    Prophecy to Israel is valuable to the Israelite, but since the Israelite is likely no to believe it, it profits them but a little. Our Lord Jesus is documented as having fulfilled over 330 prophecies contained in the Jewish Bible, and He was rejected out of hand by eye-witnesses. But from God's point of view, the prophesies concerning Israel are ALL-IMPORTANT. His honor, Name and Word hang on them. And in this, those of us who believe that they will come to pass in the same manner as those that have come to pass, that is, literally and accurately, are mightily comforted and built up in our faith. And the exhortations that are directed at Israel profit us much because we see the disastrous road they take.

    Prophecy concerning the Church is scanty. We are a People of FAITH. We are exhorted to live for the NOW. The great event of our prophecy is the return of Christ. It could happen any minute or hour. For this we are told to model our ways.

    But Keraz thinks differently.
    • He makes the prophecies to Israel apply to the Church - and the confusion is complete
    • He gives no hope for avoiding the Great Tribulation. Christ's great and expensive salvation cannot save us from it
    • He teaches that that which God has ordained for the rebellious nations is the same for those who have put their trust in Christ and His God

    When I read his understanding of prophecy I AM DISCOMFORTED. I am NOT EXHORTED for what reason is there to live a life to accounted worthy to miss this Great Tribulation? And in this breaking down of my faith, where is the EDIFICATION?

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    When I read his understanding of prophecy I AM DISCOMFORTED. I am NOT EXHORTED for what reason is there to live a life to accounted worthy to miss this Great Tribulation? And in this breaking down of my faith, where is the EDIFICATION?
    We are EXHORTED to live with PATIENT ENDURANCE through the Great Tribulation. There is NO offer to avoid Tribulation. There is nothing for those with itchy ears who want blessing without suffering.
    Rev 1:9* I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

    Rev 2:2* “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.

    Rev 2:19* “‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.

    Rev 3:10* Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

    So for John and the seven churches they needed patient endurance and faced various tribulations, and would be kept from other tribulation.

    Yet we also read this about those who are alive DURING the time of the AC:
    Rev 13:10* If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

    This is a statement for ALL saints, so nobody is avoiding the GT.

    We should note this also stated DURING the time of the 7 vials:
    Rev 16:15* (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)*

    This passage connects us to the passages which speak of Jesus' return, especially this:
    1Th 5:1* Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.*
    1Th 5:2* For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.*
    1Th 5:3* While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.*
    1Th 5:4* But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.*
    1Th 5:5* For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.*
    1Th 5:6* So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.

    Now Jesus Himself told us this:
    Mat 24:15* “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),*
    Mat 24:16* then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.*
    Mat 24:17* Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,*
    Mat 24:18* and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.*
    Mat 24:19* And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!*
    Mat 24:20* Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.*
    Mat 24:21* For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

    Jesus expected His disciples to be alive and on the earth to see this event and to go through it, needing to flee Jerusalem (if there) at the START of the GT.
    We do not get to avoid tribulation, and need patient endurance (a fruit of the Spirit) to go through any such time, especially the GT.

  5. #5
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    We are EXHORTED to live with PATIENT ENDURANCE through the Great Tribulation. There is NO offer to avoid Tribulation. There is nothing for those with itchy ears who want blessing without suffering.
    Rev 1:9* I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

    Rev 2:2* “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.

    Rev 2:19* “‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.

    Rev 3:10* Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

    So for John and the seven churches they needed patient endurance and faced various tribulations, and would be kept from other tribulation.

    Yet we also read this about those who are alive DURING the time of the AC:
    Rev 13:10* If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

    This is a statement for ALL saints, so nobody is avoiding the GT.

    We should note this also stated DURING the time of the 7 vials:
    Rev 16:15* (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)*

    This passage connects us to the passages which speak of Jesus' return, especially this:
    1Th 5:1* Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.*
    1Th 5:2* For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.*
    1Th 5:3* While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.*
    1Th 5:4* But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.*
    1Th 5:5* For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.*
    1Th 5:6* So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.

    Now Jesus Himself told us this:
    Mat 24:15* “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),*
    Mat 24:16* then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.*
    Mat 24:17* Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,*
    Mat 24:18* and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.*
    Mat 24:19* And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!*
    Mat 24:20* Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.*
    Mat 24:21* For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

    Jesus expected His disciples to be alive and on the earth to see this event and to go through it, needing to flee Jerusalem (if there) at the START of the GT.
    We do not get to avoid tribulation, and need patient endurance (a fruit of the Spirit) to go through any such time, especially the GT.
    Let me begin by saying that I fully agree that SOME Christians will go through the Great Tribulation. But they do so BECAUSE they were either slothful, sinful, unwatchfull and/or they were caught fraternizing with the enemy. And I agree that tribulation of the Church is in this AGE. The Church is "not of this world" but is not removed from this world because of God's testimony and because God needs a time for building the Church. Thus, they live in enemy territory and suffer persecution. They suffer men's hate and Satan's wrath. But the Great Tribulation is God's wrath! The question is; ARE WE OFFERED AN ESCAPE FROM THIS WRATH? To your proofs I answer thus ...
    • In Revelation 1:9 John was on Patmos in about 95 AD. Was this the great Tribulation, or was the unjust imprisonment there the tribulation that John experienced?
    • In Revelation 2:2 there is no talk of Tribulation, but of "resisting evil" within the Church - false Apostles
    • In Revelation 3:10 the opposite of your meaning evident. "BECAUSE" of certain behavior Christ will "KEEP FROM THE HOUR" - those who endured. What "HOUR"? The hour of Tribulation that is to "come upon the WHOLE EARTH". There has been no trial over the WHOLE EARTH since Noah. Even the World Wars were local. And it is THIS TRAIL that we can avoid IF we meet certain criteria. Here in this verse is the exhortation, and comfort! If you OVERCOME Christ will EXTRACT you from the HOUR of universal trial!
    • In Revelation 13:10 the Revelation 13: context is, in verses 7-10, those "saints" who are OVERCOME by the Beast. This confirms what is said in Revelation 3:10 immediately above. Certain CRITERIA will lead to the OVERCOMER being KEPT from the hour. This implies that the bulk will NOT MEET THE CRITERIA and NOT be KEPT. They are enter a WAR with the beast and are overcome. And so is the nature of war. SOME take captives. SOME kill with the sword. Are these actions demanded of a "SAINT"? Are killing people with a sword and taking the living into prisoner of war camps ordered by the Lord? NO! These are Christians who grab the sword and make war - AND GOD warns them that they will end up where they sought to put other men! The "patience" and the "faith" of the saints is NOT IN THE SWORD AND WAR! The patience and faith of the saints left behind is that they continue to trust in the Lord. And so the Lord preserves them who "FLEE" (Chapter 12)
    • In Revelation 16:15 what indication is there that Christians are addressed? The context is the call to join the Beast's Army for Armageddon. This battle is a great slaughter. Is not the warning to "he who" - that is ANY MAN. The call of the frogs is to "KINGS AND THE WHOLE EARTH". Surely the context makes it clear. "HE WHO" in verse 15 is men who would join this army and are warned not to! Do you make Christians to join this army?


    In 1 Thessalonians 5, why do you not complete the instructions? Why do you not complete the context? The Lord's instructions go from verse 1 to 11! In the verses 1-6, which you selectively quote, is there not "THEM" and "US". This you have failed to mentioned. "WE" in verse 1 need no more instruction because we KNOW. But "THEY" of verse 3 are caught unawares. Who are the "WE" and who are the "THEY"? "WE" are those stay sober and watch. "WE" are the children of the day. In verse 7, which you left out, "THEY" sleep and are drunken in the night, but "WE" in verse 8 "HOPE FOR SALVATION!" Why should we hope for salvation?
    1. Because "WE" are not appointed to wrath
    2. Because "WE" enjoy the salvation wrought by Christ
    3. Because "WE" will be with Him! And where will He be???? In the clouds! (4.17)

    And it is then that we receive "COMFORT" and "EDIFICATION" in verse 11. The Great Tribulation is NOT man's wrath. It is, over and over, in the book of Revelation - "God's WRATH". The word "wrath" appears in 13 verses in Revelation, and at least TEN report that it is the time of God's Wrath! It is this wrath that we are not appointed to. If we are appointed to God's wrath WHAT THEN IS THE POINT OF CHRIST'S EFFICACY??? Let us all go to the Lake of Fire then if we are appointed to God's wrath.

    In Matthew 24:15.21 you have again ignored the CONTEXT. From the very first verse of this Chapter till verse 31 it is ALL about THE JEWS.
    1. It is the Jewish Temple that will be razed
    2. False Christs are a Jewish problem because they still look for Messiah from Bethlehem
    3. Hated of all nations is a Jewish problem stemming from breaking the Law (Lev.26:17, Deut.30:7)
    4. False "prophets" is a Jewish problem. False teachers is the Church's problem
    5. "Seeing" the Abomination of Desolation means you must live in and around Jerusalem
    6. Daniel is a Jewish prophet sent to "HIS PEOPLE"
    7. "The Holy Place" is part of the Jewish Temple
    8. "The Sabbath" is part of the Law of Moses - a Jewish matter
    9. The Jews, because they have rejected Christ, still look for a man coming from Bethlehem, or Galilee, or Egypt
    10. Armageddon is in Israel, 70 miles from Jerusalem. That is were the "carcass" and the vultures will be
    11. The Lord breaks forth from the clouds over Mount of Olives - next to Jerusalem
    12. A "SIGN" of the Son of Man is given. Only Jews receive a "sign" (1st Cor.1:22)
    13. Only Jews were scattered to the "four winds" (Jer.49:36), and thus only Jews are gathered from there (Ezek.37:9)
    14. The WHOLE CONTEXT is about JEWS - and Jews pass through the Great Tribulation. It is "JACOB'S TROUBLE".

    Not ONE SINGLE PROOF you brought is able to show "those accounted worthy" going through the Great Tribulation. The Nations? YES! The Nation of Israel? YES! The slothful and sinful Christians? YES! But the OVERCOMERS? NO!!!For the DILIGENT Christians this prophecy is EXHORTING, EDIFYING and COMFORTING! For the slothful Christian - well, he does not care. For those who use prophecy to DISCOMFORT the saints - well, I will leave that up to the Lord.

  6. #6
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Let me begin by saying that I fully agree that SOME Christians will go through the Great Tribulation. But they do so BECAUSE they were either slothful, sinful, unwatchfull and/or they were caught fraternizing with the enemy.
    Nope. ALL Christians alive at the time of GT will go through it.

    And I agree that tribulation of the Church is in this AGE. The Church is "not of this world" but is not removed from this world because of God's testimony and because God needs a time for building the Church. Thus, they live in enemy territory and suffer persecution. They suffer men's hate and Satan's wrath. But the Great Tribulation is God's wrath!
    Nope, the GT is NOT God's wrath, though God also pours out His wrath DURING that time.
    Matt 24:22 would be meaningless IF it was about God's wrath. Further note that Jesus has STILL NOT come at that time for we read:
    Mat 24:23* Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.*

    The question is; ARE WE OFFERED AN ESCAPE FROM THIS WRATH? To your proofs I answer thus ...
    • In Revelation 1:9 John was on Patmos in about 95 AD. Was this the great Tribulation, or was the unjust imprisonment there the tribulation that John experienced?
    • In Revelation 2:2 there is no talk of Tribulation, but of "resisting evil" within the Church - false Apostles
    • In Revelation 3:10 the opposite of your meaning evident. "BECAUSE" of certain behavior Christ will "KEEP FROM THE HOUR" - those who endured. What "HOUR"? The hour of Tribulation that is to "come upon the WHOLE EARTH". There has been no trial over the WHOLE EARTH since Noah. Even the World Wars were local. And it is THIS TRAIL that we can avoid IF we meet certain criteria. Here in this verse is the exhortation, and comfort! If you OVERCOME Christ will EXTRACT you from the HOUR of universal trial!
    • In Revelation 13:10 the Revelation 13: context is, in verses 7-10, those "saints" who are OVERCOME by the Beast. This confirms what is said in Revelation 3:10 immediately above. Certain CRITERIA will lead to the OVERCOMER being KEPT from the hour. This implies that the bulk will NOT MEET THE CRITERIA and NOT be KEPT. They are enter a WAR with the beast and are overcome. And so is the nature of war. SOME take captives. SOME kill with the sword. Are these actions demanded of a "SAINT"? Are killing people with a sword and taking the living into prisoner of war camps ordered by the Lord? NO! These are Christians who grab the sword and make war - AND GOD warns them that they will end up where they sought to put other men! The "patience" and the "faith" of the saints is NOT IN THE SWORD AND WAR! The patience and faith of the saints left behind is that they continue to trust in the Lord. And so the Lord preserves them who "FLEE" (Chapter 12)
    • In Revelation 16:15 what indication is there that Christians are addressed? The context is the call to join the Beast's Army for Armageddon. This battle is a great slaughter. Is not the warning to "he who" - that is ANY MAN. The call of the frogs is to "KINGS AND THE WHOLE EARTH". Surely the context makes it clear. "HE WHO" in verse 15 is men who would join this army and are warned not to! Do you make Christians to join this army?
    1) I am highlighting in Revelation that Tribulation is part and parcel for ALL Christians.
    2) Actually it does talk of Tribulation, this is from WITHIN the church - a real trial.
    3) Actually BECAUSE they have ALREADY experienced Tribulation so God will keep them from another period of Tribulation. There has been a period of such Tribulation. Where you are limited is that you convert "the whole world" to mean every nation on earth, when the colloquial use means the Roman World.
    4) Nope, the statement is NOT about what the saints do, but what is done TO them. They ARE taken captive, NOT they take captives. Don't confuse the two. Again they ARE slain with the sword NOT they slay with the sword. These are things done to them and NOT what they do. So your argument falls down. This is NOT about Christians taking captives or slaying people, but about the beast making war on the saints (as stated in verse 7).
    5) Wow! You really think Christians are NOT addressed in Rev 16:15. I don;t know how you CANNOT think that. I provided 1 Thess 5 so you could see how the SAME form of words are used, the SAME message. It is because the Beast is going to war that the saints are encouraged to hold on a little longer.

    I
    n 1 Thessalonians 5, why do you not complete the instructions? Why do you not complete the context? The Lord's instructions go from verse 1 to 11! In the verses 1-6, which you selectively quote, is there not "THEM" and "US". This you have failed to mentioned. "WE" in verse 1 need no more instruction because we KNOW. But "THEY" of verse 3 are caught unawares. Who are the "WE" and who are the "THEY"? "WE" are those stay sober and watch. "WE" are the children of the day. In verse 7, which you left out, "THEY" sleep and are drunken in the night, but "WE" in verse 8 "HOPE FOR SALVATION!" Why should we hope for salvation?
    1. Because "WE" are not appointed to wrath
    2. Because "WE" enjoy the salvation wrought by Christ
    3. Because "WE" will be with Him! And where will He be???? In the clouds! (4.17)

    And it is then that we receive "COMFORT" and "EDIFICATION" in verse 11. The Great Tribulation is NOT man's wrath. It is, over and over, in the book of Revelation - "God's WRATH". The word "wrath" appears in 13 verses in Revelation, and at least TEN report that it is the time of God's Wrath! It is this wrath that we are not appointed to. If we are appointed to God's wrath WHAT THEN IS THE POINT OF CHRIST'S EFFICACY??? Let us all go to the Lake of Fire then if we are appointed to God's wrath.
    I quoted 1 Thess 5 for its connection with Rev 16:15. I was not trying to explain the whole chapter.
    However why would I mention a THEM and US as this is self-evident?
    THEM is "people" (verse 3) whilst US is "brothers" (verse 4).

    We wear the HELMET of salvation, which is true TODAY, and is NOT speaking of some future event ONLY. Perhaps read Ephesians 6.
    1) Indeed we are NOT appointed to wrath - and?
    2) Indeed - and?
    3) actually it says we MIGHT live with Him, speaking of the future rapture, mentioned in Chapter 4.

    The GT is NOT God's wrath alone, nor Satan's alone, but actually BOTH.
    Yet God's wrath is MORE than what happens during that short period of time. God's wrath is the LoF.

    In Matthew 24:15.21 you have again ignored the CONTEXT. From the very first verse of this Chapter till verse 31 it is ALL about THE JEWS.
    1. It is the Jewish Temple that will be razed
    2. False Christs are a Jewish problem because they still look for Messiah from Bethlehem
    3. Hated of all nations is a Jewish problem stemming from breaking the Law (Lev.26:17, Deut.30:7)
    4. False "prophets" is a Jewish problem. False teachers is the Church's problem
    5. "Seeing" the Abomination of Desolation means you must live in and around Jerusalem
    6. Daniel is a Jewish prophet sent to "HIS PEOPLE"
    7. "The Holy Place" is part of the Jewish Temple
    8. "The Sabbath" is part of the Law of Moses - a Jewish matter
    9. The Jews, because they have rejected Christ, still look for a man coming from Bethlehem, or Galilee, or Egypt
    10. Armageddon is in Israel, 70 miles from Jerusalem. That is were the "carcass" and the vultures will be
    11. The Lord breaks forth from the clouds over Mount of Olives - next to Jerusalem
    12. A "SIGN" of the Son of Man is given. Only Jews receive a "sign" (1st Cor.1:22)
    13. Only Jews were scattered to the "four winds" (Jer.49:36), and thus only Jews are gathered from there (Ezek.37:9)
    14. The WHOLE CONTEXT is about JEWS - and Jews pass through the Great Tribulation. It is "JACOB'S TROUBLE".

    Not ONE SINGLE PROOF you brought is able to show "those accounted worthy" going through the Great Tribulation. The Nations? YES! The Nation of Israel? YES! The slothful and sinful Christians? YES! But the OVERCOMERS? NO!!!For the DILIGENT Christians this prophecy is EXHORTING, EDIFYING and COMFORTING! For the slothful Christian - well, he does not care. For those who use prophecy to DISCOMFORT the saints - well, I will leave that up to the Lord.
    Actually no, it is NOT about the Jews. CONTEXT shows it only STARTS with the Jews.
    False Christs are NOT a Jewish problem only.
    Hated of all nations is NOT only a Jewish problem.
    I could go on, but it gets boring.
    We are raptured to Jesus, who you have as being in the clouds over Mount of Olives THEREFORE this is NOT about the Jews, but the church.
    Jews may demand signs, but actually so does everyone.
    The church was scattered at the martyrdom of Stephen and now are found throughout the world.
    Jacob's trouble lasts ONE Day, not 42 months. The Jews are kept in the wilderness DURING the 42 months - that is those who do NOT perish DURING the Day of Jacob's Trouble.

  7. #7
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope. ALL Christians alive at the time of GT will go through it.


    Nope, the GT is NOT God's wrath, though God also pours out His wrath DURING that time.
    Matt 24:22 would be meaningless IF it was about God's wrath. Further note that Jesus has STILL NOT come at that time for we read:
    Mat 24:23* Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.*


    1) I am highlighting in Revelation that Tribulation is part and parcel for ALL Christians.
    2) Actually it does talk of Tribulation, this is from WITHIN the church - a real trial.
    3) Actually BECAUSE they have ALREADY experienced Tribulation so God will keep them from another period of Tribulation. There has been a period of such Tribulation. Where you are limited is that you convert "the whole world" to mean every nation on earth, when the colloquial use means the Roman World.
    4) Nope, the statement is NOT about what the saints do, but what is done TO them. They ARE taken captive, NOT they take captives. Don't confuse the two. Again they ARE slain with the sword NOT they slay with the sword. These are things done to them and NOT what they do. So your argument falls down. This is NOT about Christians taking captives or slaying people, but about the beast making war on the saints (as stated in verse 7).
    5) Wow! You really think Christians are NOT addressed in Rev 16:15. I don;t know how you CANNOT think that. I provided 1 Thess 5 so you could see how the SAME form of words are used, the SAME message. It is because the Beast is going to war that the saints are encouraged to hold on a little longer.

    I
    I quoted 1 Thess 5 for its connection with Rev 16:15. I was not trying to explain the whole chapter.
    However why would I mention a THEM and US as this is self-evident?
    THEM is "people" (verse 3) whilst US is "brothers" (verse 4).

    We wear the HELMET of salvation, which is true TODAY, and is NOT speaking of some future event ONLY. Perhaps read Ephesians 6.
    1) Indeed we are NOT appointed to wrath - and?
    2) Indeed - and?
    3) actually it says we MIGHT live with Him, speaking of the future rapture, mentioned in Chapter 4.

    The GT is NOT God's wrath alone, nor Satan's alone, but actually BOTH.
    Yet God's wrath is MORE than what happens during that short period of time. God's wrath is the LoF.


    Actually no, it is NOT about the Jews. CONTEXT shows it only STARTS with the Jews.
    False Christs are NOT a Jewish problem only.
    Hated of all nations is NOT only a Jewish problem.
    I could go on, but it gets boring.
    We are raptured to Jesus, who you have as being in the clouds over Mount of Olives THEREFORE this is NOT about the Jews, but the church.
    Jews may demand signs, but actually so does everyone.
    The church was scattered at the martyrdom of Stephen and now are found throughout the world.
    Jacob's trouble lasts ONE Day, not 42 months. The Jews are kept in the wilderness DURING the 42 months - that is those who do NOT perish DURING the Day of Jacob's Trouble.
    OK. Let's deal with one thing at a time. You maintain (in red bold above) that the Great Tribulation is NOT God's wrath although He pours it out during the great Tribulation. Let scripture decide:

    Romans 1:18;
    "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;"
    The Seals, Vials, Woes and Trumpets are opened in heaven. They contain God's wrath.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Romans 2:5; "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God"
    God's wrath is specific to the day of Judgment. Our Judgement is during the great Tribulation in the air at the Bema

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Romans 5:9 :
    "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."
    Christ's efficacy also includes being saved FROM WRATH

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You say that God's wrath is the Christian too. Scripture says:
    Ephesians 2:3:
    [I]"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were (past tense) by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
    Ephesians 5:6:
    "Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."
    Colossians 3:6:
    "For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience"

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Christians are supposed to be delivered, not from PRESENT tribulation, but "the WRATH TO COME".
    1st Thessalonians 1:10 :
    "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In context of the "Day of the Lord" coming with destruction, 1st Thessalonians 5:9 says:
    "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Seals are part of the Great Tribulation. They are God's wrath. Revelation 6:16:
    "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"
    Revelation 6:17:
    "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The woes are part of the Great Tribulation. They are God's wrath. Revelation 11:18:
    "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Beast reigns during the Great Tribulation. His worshipers are reserved for God's wrath. Revelation 14:10:
    "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The seven Vials - part of the Great Tribulation, is God's wrath.
    Revelation 14:19:
    "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."
    Revelation 15:1:
    "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."
    Revelation 15:7:
    "And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever."
    Revelation 16:1:
    "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Destroying the money system of this world during the Great Tribulation is God's wrath. Revelation 16:19:
    "And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Armageddon, the penultimate act of the Great Tribulation, is God wrath. Revelation 19:15:
    "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

    The Great Tribulation is God's WRATH. It was meant for the ungodly Nations. Israel joins them so they have "Jacob's Trouble". The Church is delivered from it by Christ's efficacy, but if any Christian loves the world, loves Babylon the Great, is not mature spiritually, has no relationship with Christ, is indifferent, is a defeated Church member, is an habitual sinner, will not deny the flesh and the self, does not loose his soul-life, and loves money, he will be LEFT where he wants to be so that he can go through a very intense cure. He will be LEFT to the great Tribulation but be preserved by FLEEING. If any such Christian thinks he can suddenly change, Revelation 13:7 says that he has no chance against the Beast. Any Christian who raise up the sword to defend himself against the Beast will be captured and killed.

    The PROPHECY of being raptured PRIOR to the onset of the great Tribulation is;
    1. EXHORTING. It promises salvation, but it also threatens the slothful
    2. EDIFYING. Our Faith is matured by believing that Christ's efficacy extends to all areas of God's wrath
    3. COMFORTING. The diligent Christian is comforted with the truth of missing the great Tribulation. He is also comforted by the knowledge that God is just and will leave those who did not pay the price to a corner of His wrath. The diligent Christian has something to work for, and something to gain. He also knows that the slothful Christian will suffer loss and NOT be rewarded.

  8. #8
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Thanks to all who take the time to make considered replies.

    Walls said: But Keraz thinks differently.
    1/ He makes the prophecies to Israel apply to the Church - and the confusion is complete
    2/ He gives no hope for avoiding the Great Tribulation. Christ's great and expensive salvation cannot save us from it
    3/ He teaches that that which God has ordained for the rebellious nations is the same for those who have put their trust in Christ and His God

    Keraz replies:
    1/ The church is Israel. Galatians 6:14-16 WE are the people of God, to whom the Kingdom is given. Matthew 21:43 Those who call themselves Jews and have usurped the name of Israel, will be no more after the Lord's Day of wrath. Romans 9:27

    2/ I have never said that all Christians will experience the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, to happen during the final 3 1/2 years of this era.
    We will go thru the Sixth Seal, the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath. But we are told to stand firm in our faith and all who call upon His Name will be saved. Joel 2:332, Acts 2:21 That is: protected thru it, as the 3 men in the fiery furnace were. Isaiah 43:2

    3/ A flat out lie. But then you are a purveyor of the 'rapture lie', so more of the same for you.

    Since the first century, from the OT prophets and the prophesies of Jesus and the Apostles, we have only those who prophecy to individuals or to Church groups. Those ancient prophets gave us all the information we know about our future.
    Unfortunately, many have chosen to believe false teachings, so as we are told in Isaiah 29:9-12, they are locked into those theories and wrong ideas and are incapable of understanding the true Prophetic Word. Isaiah 8:16, Jeremiah 6:10, +

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Thanks to all who take the time to make considered replies.

    Walls said: But Keraz thinks differently.
    1/ He makes the prophecies to Israel apply to the Church - and the confusion is complete
    2/ He gives no hope for avoiding the Great Tribulation. Christ's great and expensive salvation cannot save us from it
    3/ He teaches that that which God has ordained for the rebellious nations is the same for those who have put their trust in Christ and His God

    Keraz replies:
    1/ The church is Israel. Galatians 6:14-16 WE are the people of God, to whom the Kingdom is given. Matthew 21:43 Those who call themselves Jews and have usurped the name of Israel, will be no more after the Lord's Day of wrath. Romans 9:27

    2/ I have never said that all Christians will experience the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, to happen during the final 3 1/2 years of this era.
    We will go thru the Sixth Seal, the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath. But we are told to stand firm in our faith and all who call upon His Name will be saved. Joel 2:332, Acts 2:21 That is: protected thru it, as the 3 men in the fiery furnace were. Isaiah 43:2

    3/ A flat out lie. But then you are a purveyor of the 'rapture lie', so more of the same for you.

    Since the first century, from the OT prophets and the prophesies of Jesus and the Apostles, we have only those who prophecy to individuals or to Church groups. Those ancient prophets gave us all the information we know about our future.
    Unfortunately, many have chosen to believe false teachings, so as we are told in Isaiah 29:9-12, they are locked into those theories and wrong ideas and are incapable of understanding the true Prophetic Word. Isaiah 8:16, Jeremiah 6:10, +
    I'm afraid that point #3 is valid by your own mouth. You have not ceased, over the months, to predict the great and terrible day of the Lord with sun-storm activities, searing heat, blood and tribulation. Scripture says that this event will encompass (i) the whole world, and (ii) all them who dwell on the earth. Simple logic tells us then that any Christian on earth during this time will experience the same. Despite the clear indications in plain language, you have predicted that the Christians ... oops ... no Christians, only Israel, must pass through this wrath of God. Noah had an Ark, the Red Sea parted for Israel before Pharaoh's army, and Israel experience supernatural deliverance after supernatural deliverance. Yet, for the outpouring of God's wrath, more terrible than the earth has ever seen, including Noah's flood, the earth becoming almost uninhabitable with sun-storms, searing fire and whatever else you have predicted, there is no escape for the lovers of Jesus. Is Christ's efficacy so ineffectual for you?

    Whether you like it or not, that is your message. And when you deny any escape for the Christian ... oops again, there is no Christian ... only Israelite, you deny what scripture says. Not only does scripture say that we are not appointed to this wrath, not only does scripture say that we are "caught away" to the clouds, but it says, "... brethren, by the PRESENCE of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our GATHERING together unto him" (2nd Thessalonians 2:1)! And all this BEFORE the day of the Lord (v.2), and BEFORE the Man of Perdition is revealed (v.3). But you predict NO PRESENCE of the Lord in the clouds, you predict NO GATHERING to Him BEFORE the onset of the wrath of God. You dash all hope that scripture gives, and you DISCOMFIT the Christian by trashing his hope in God as a SAVIOR.

    May the reader judge who is misrepresenting the scriptures.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    May the reader judge who is doing his best to misrepresent what I believe and teach, all as prophesied in the scriptures.
    That the Lord's Day of wrath will affect everyone is plain from Luke 21:34-35 and many others.
    That the faithful Christians will be protected is plain from Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 91, Acts 2:21, +
    The Christian believers are the true Israel of God, His Overcomers of Satan.
    When Jesus Returns, he will send out His angels to gather his own people. Matthew 24:31 NOT before and Not to heaven.

    Do you realize just how bad your last accusation is? You may as well call me the Anti-Christ.
    Be assured you will be Judged for this kind of nasty and quite wrong assertion. James 4:11-12

    Bible Prophecy will be fulfilled; those that can be literally fulfilled, will be and those who have rejected the warnings will be shocked and terrified instead of looking up for their redemption. Luke 21:25-28

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    May the reader judge who is doing his best to misrepresent what I believe and teach, all as prophesied in the scriptures.
    That the Lord's Day of wrath will affect everyone is plain from Luke 21:34-35 and many others.
    That the faithful Christians will be protected is plain from Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 91, Acts 2:21, +
    The Christian believers are the true Israel of God, His Overcomers of Satan.
    When Jesus Returns, he will send out His angels to gather his own people. Matthew 24:31 NOT before and Not to heaven.

    Do you realize just how bad your last accusation is? You may as well call me the Anti-Christ.
    Be assured you will be Judged for this kind of nasty and quite wrong assertion. James 4:11-12

    Bible Prophecy will be fulfilled; those that can be literally fulfilled, will be and those who have rejected the warnings will be shocked and terrified instead of looking up for their redemption. Luke 21:25-28
    Let us examine Luke 21:34-35, but for TRUTH'S sake let us add the context. Luke 21:329-36 reads;

    29 "And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
    30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
    31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."


    v.29. Trees in Parable are Kingdoms (Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31). The FIG Tree is Judah. All the trees is the explosion of independent nations (e.g. 77 in 1900 - 195 in 2019).
    v.30. The "Summer" is that time when the earth produces - the "regeneration" of Matthew 19:28 - the Millennium with huge harvests
    v.31. The Kingdom of God. When God's laws and rules will be in effect on the earth - the Millennium
    v.32. "generation" is what is generated. In this case it was a "generation of vipers" who do murder since Abel (Lk.11:47-51)
    v.33. Although the Law remains TILL heaven and earth pass, the words of the inspired Prophets and the Apostles remain forever
    v.34. Wanton living will cause an overstress of the psych that, in turn, will cause one to be unprepared for "THAT DAY"
    v.35. THAT DAY will come as a snare. A "snare" is an unseen trap that causes loss of freedom to escape
    v.35. THAT DAY will come of ALL men living on the face of the earth - no exceptions. "ALL men"
    v.35. THAT DAY will encompass the WHOLE earth - no area is excepted, not even the South Pole
    v.35. THAT DAY encompass the whole FACE of the earth. Hades under the earth is not affected and the clouds above the earth are not affected. The signs in the heavens are just that - "SIGNS"
    v.36. THERE IS AN ESCAPE! - by watching, by being alert, by appreciating what is coming and by staying in contact with God by prayer
    v.36. THERE IS AN ESCAPE - for those "COUNTED WORTHY"
    v.36. THERE IS AN ESCAPE ALL THINGS THAT COME TO PASS. That is, one must be absent for the things that come to pass cover the whole face of the earth
    v.36. THERE IS AN ESCAPE. It is to be STANDING BEFORE THE SON OF MAN. Where is the Son of Man at this time? IN THE CLOUDS. He is journeying from the highest heaven to earth and pauses in the clouds TO MEET US CHRISTIANS
    v.36. THERE IS AN ESCAPE. One must be STANDING. "STANDING" indicates that you are alive. The dead RISE and the living are CHANGED to be caught away TO MEET THE LORD IN THE CLOUDS (1st Thess.4:16-17)

    This is the plain language of Luke 21:29-36.

    Let us now examine Acts 2:21. Peter relates a prophecy of Joel. Joel was Hebrew prophet of the 9th or 8th century BC. He prophesied to "the people of the Land" who had "fathers". His prophecy is to Israel. The Church is not revealed to the prophets of old (Eph.3:5, 9 etc.). Joel 2:28-32 reads;

    28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
    29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
    30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
    31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
    32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."


    Joel prophesied that God would pour out His Spirit upon "ALL" flesh. That is, men and women BOTH OF, AND OUTSIDE of the "people of the Land". That was fulfilled starting at Pentecost in Jerusalem and extending to the house of Cornelius until it extended to the uttermost corners of the earth. The prophecy then jumps 2,000 years to the "TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD". Just "before" that day there will be "SIGNS" in the heavens, but ON EARTH - REAL blood, fire and pillars of smoke. Then Joel predicts DELIVERANCE. The Hebrew word used means "ESCAPE". And this escape is through TWO THINGS;
    1. By any man calling upon the Lord
    2. By a REMNANT

    And then comes the salient CONDITION - THE "DELIVERANCE" (not the DELIVERER) WILL BE IN MOUNT ZION AND JERUSALEM! Who will be in Jerusalem that will bring DELIVERANCE. Why - THE REMNANT of Deuteronomy 30:1-5 and Romans 9:27 and 11:5.
    • Who are they? ISRAELITES!
    • What do they do? Keep the Law with all their hearts, and speak against the Beast in a Jewish Temple
    • Could they be the Church? NO! The Church is in the CLOUDS not in Mount Zion
    • Can the Church deliver anybody? NO! They themselves seek deliverance from the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord

    And thus is the whole picture honest. Joel knew nothing of the Church. Joel prophesied to Israel. Israel reject Jesus as Savior. What is left to them then? The REMNANT of Deuteronomy 30 and Romans 9 and 11! Who was Peter addressing when he brought this prophesy to memory? "YE MEN OF ISRAEL" - the very men who had rejected their Messiah and murdered Him. Who will be "delivered"? ISRAELITES.

    HOW CAN THE REMNANT BE DELIVERED FROM THE EFFECTS OF JACOB'S TROUBLE? By having a SEAL on their foreheads!!! Those sealed were ISRAELITES (Rev.7:1-8). What does the SEAL do? It prevents these men from the SMOKE of Joel's prophecy. In Revelation 9 SMOKE rises up like pillars. And out of this smoke all manner of "man-hurters" come. Then, the God of creation gives His orders to His creature in verse 4, "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

    We have examined Acts.2:21 and found it NOT to pertain to the Church but to Israelites WHO ARE SEALED. What is the hope of the Church? THAT THEY WILL NOT BE PRESENT ON EARTH BUT IN THE CLOUDS!" The beginning of the discourse of being caught away to the clouds begins by giving HOPE! 1 Thessalonians 4:13 says; "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope". And how does this discourse end in 5:8-9? WITH HOPE! What hope? To be in the clouds and standing!

    My brother, you should really examine your eschatology! The earth surely faces the doom and gloom you predict. But do God's People face it too. YES - but NOT ALL. Those Israelites who embrace the Beast must die for idolatry. It is the Law. Those Christians who have not overcome, must flee and be overcome. But what of those Israelites SEALED, and what of those Christians WHO OVERCOME? They have the sure hope contained in theses same prophesies FOR DELIVERANCE! Such is the salvation of God. By Christ's efficacy both Israelite and Christian find mercy.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Bible prophecy is a very controversial subject and not easy to understand.
    1 Corinthians 14:22b says that prophecy is intended to inform Christian believers.

    But the many and varied discussions, theories and doctrines point up the disturbing fact of how we Christians often have opposing views of what God has planned for our future.
    There is only one sequence, one Plan that will actually unfold and that could be quite soon. So one view is right and all the rest are wrong.
    Basically; we can say that the right way, is the one that conforms to scripture. But as Isaiah 28:13 says about prophecy: Here a little, there a little..... making it difficult to work out a correct sequence.
    I agree. We learn in layers, because our spiritual growth, as well as our studies, are slow and progress through obstacles. Furthermore, we are tested by patience to see the level of our spiritual love in a variety of trials. Learning is both intellectual and experiential.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    Revelation does give us that in the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, then the glorious Return of Jesus and after He has reigned for a 1000 years comes the final Judgement, then Eternity.
    Revelation also is the only Book that warns us to not mess around with it. Revelation 22:18-19
    True. However, a number of books of the Bible contain warnings about not corrupting God's word. Prophetic books, by implication, would recommend against tampering with God's word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    What is described in the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, are things that can and will be literally fulfilled. [Allowing for the few metaphorical descriptions; like locusts in Rev 9:7]
    So; with the Seals, we are told that when Jesus ascended to heaven, He was found worthy to open the Seals and He commenced to do so. Revelation 6:1
    It should be clear to all that the first five Seals are open. We HAVE had wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters aplenty and the proof is the Fifth Seal, where the souls of all the Christian martyrs since Stephen are kept under the heavenly Altar. Revelation 6:9-10
    Wars and famines have always been in existence, since the Fall. I think, therefore, that the seals have something more than wars and famines to predict. They have to do, I think, with the connection of these plagues with the atonement of Christ. His death opened the door for our salvation, as well as closed the door for the wicked. These plagues evidence the beginning of God's judgments on earth in the NT era. Perhaps that's what you meant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    Therefore, the next prophesied event must be the Sixth Seal. Revelation 6:12-17
    We have been given plenty of warning and details about this sudden and shocking Day that the Lord will instigate. It will change the world and interestingly, Isaiah 29:23-24 says; Then the Lord's children, the work of His hands, [who are born again Christians] will praise Him for their protection and only then, will we all fully understand His plans and purposes.
    Ref: logostelos.info
    The 6th seal, for me, represents the actual coming of Christ's Kingdom at his 2nd Advent. It is the final judgment to be poured out on earth, just before Christ returns. I wouldn't focus on this like preparation for a nuclear war, building bomb shelters, wearing tin hats, and protecting electrical equipment. Rather, I would prepare by getting my spiritual life together, by studying Scriptures, choosing each day to keep love in my heart, and spreading the gospel. Some protections against a possible em bomb is not impractical.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Walls;
    The Revised English Bible says: Luke 21:36 Be on the alert, praying at all time for the strength to pass safely thru all that is coming…..
    This rendering of the Greek word used there is correct, as to say it means 'escape', is a direct contradiction of the previous verse where it is stated; this Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.

    Re God's Seal: This is not given until AFTER the Sixth Seal, as Revelation 7:1-3 plainly says.

    Randyk: The idea of a worldwide Judgment at the Return of Jesus, is simply not prophesied. Then, He destroys the attacking armies and chains up Satan, that is all.
    But understanding the given sequence of the end times events, it is plain and logical that the next thing we can expect is the Sixth Seal. Which will enable the establishment of a One World Govt, to be led after a year or so, by a powerful leader, who will eventually be revealed as the Anti-Christ.

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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. Let's deal with one thing at a time. You maintain (in red bold above) that the Great Tribulation is NOT God's wrath although He pours it out during the great Tribulation.

    Let scripture decide:

    Romans 1:18;
    "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;"
    The Seals, Vials, Woes and Trumpets are opened in heaven. They contain God's wrath.
    And? I have not disagreed with this.
    I have stated the GT is NOT God's wrath, but you seem to confuse the Seals, Trumpets and Vials with the GT. They are NOT the same thing. You seem to have accepted Pre-trib teachings that this is ALL tied into that.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Romans 2:5; "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God"
    God's wrath is specific to the day of Judgment. Our Judgement is during the great Tribulation in the air at the Bema
    Incorrect on a number of levels.
    1) The Day of Judgement is the GWToJ, and so I am agreeing with you about this, EXCEPT that is NOT the ONLY time God's wrath is out poured IN Judgement.IF it were then the GT would (according to YOUR definition) have to be on that one day.

    2) Peter states:
    1 Pe 4:17* For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?*

    Jesus also gives a parable:
    Mat 13:24* He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field,*
    Mat 13:25* but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away.

    You know the rest, the point being that he weeds and wheat grow together UNTIL the time of harvest - which is when the GT happens. They gather the WEEDS first, NOT the wheat. IOW the weeds, the false believers are removed form the church THROUGH the GT.

    The GT is NOT about people who are NOT Believers, but about those who ARE Believers. However at the time of the GT, God will act against those who take the Mark.

    3) Their is NO GT in the air - there is simply a test done of our works.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Romans 5:9 :
    "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."
    Christ's efficacy also includes being saved FROM WRATH
    And? No one is disputing this.
    Noah was saved from God's wrath on the earth by being in an ark. God's wrath was poured out on the earth and Noah had to go through it too.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You say that God's wrath is the Christian too. Scripture says:
    Ephesians 2:3:
    [I]"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were (past tense) by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
    Ephesians 5:6:
    "Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."
    Colossians 3:6:
    "For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience"
    Huh? I didn;t say that and I am not sure what you are trying to argue.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Christians are supposed to be delivered, not from PRESENT tribulation, but "the WRATH TO COME".
    1st Thessalonians 1:10 :
    "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."
    Note that the "delivered" is in the PAST tense, NOT a future tense. The waiting is future. So we wait for Jesus, having been delivered from God's wrath, which is about the Judgement as noted in the GWToJ.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In context of the "Day of the Lord" coming with destruction, 1st Thessalonians 5:9 says:
    "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"
    Indeed. And? What form is that wrath and against whom at that time? Does it affect Believers? No.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Seals are part of the Great Tribulation. They are God's wrath. Revelation 6:16:
    "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"
    Revelation 6:17:
    "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
    Most certainly not a part of the GT.
    The PEOPLE claim it as the wrath of the Lamb (notice not God). However it isn't. It just seems like it. Notice that God does NOT say IT IS the Day of the wrath of the Lamb - ONLY people make this declaration.
    One of the BIG mistakes is to confuse what happens in the order stated.
    What should REALLY clarify for anyone is that this so called wrath of the Lamb, has no one noted as dying, and no mention of Jesus' return.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The woes are part of the Great Tribulation. They are God's wrath. Revelation 11:18:
    "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."
    This is ONLY stated AFTER the 7th Trumpet is blown, and is NOT in connection with the woes, but with the change in the heavenlies when Jesus is crowned King and Satan has been kicked out of heaven to the earth, which initiates the GT.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Beast reigns during the Great Tribulation. His worshipers are reserved for God's wrath. Revelation 14:10:
    "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"
    Indeed he certainly does reign on earth, and he is the one CAUSING the GT, with the wrath of Satan:
    Rev 12:12* Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”
    And you should read what you sate because it is the Beast's worshippers who experience the wrath of God DURING the time of the GT.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The seven Vials - part of the Great Tribulation, is God's wrath.
    Revelation 14:19:
    "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."
    Revelation 15:1:
    "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."
    Revelation 15:7:
    "And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever."
    Revelation 16:1:
    "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."
    You are so close...
    The 7 vials are DURING the GT, but are NOT the GT.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Destroying the money system of this world during the Great Tribulation is God's wrath. Revelation 16:19:
    "And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."
    You mean destroying Mystery Babylon.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Armageddon, the penultimate act of the Great Tribulation, is God wrath. Revelation 19:15:
    "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

    The Great Tribulation is God's WRATH. It was meant for the ungodly Nations. Israel joins them so they have "Jacob's Trouble". The Church is delivered from it by Christ's efficacy, but if any Christian loves the world, loves Babylon the Great, is not mature spiritually, has no relationship with Christ, is indifferent, is a defeated Church member, is an habitual sinner, will not deny the flesh and the self, does not loose his soul-life, and loves money, he will be LEFT where he wants to be so that he can go through a very intense cure. He will be LEFT to the great Tribulation but be preserved by FLEEING. If any such Christian thinks he can suddenly change, Revelation 13:7 says that he has no chance against the Beast. Any Christian who raise up the sword to defend himself against the Beast will be captured and killed.
    Here we find the SOURCE of your error.
    God's wrath is poured out at various times on various people for ungodliness.
    His WRATH is indeed 100% for the ungodly nations and people.
    However the Great Tribulation is NOT God's wrath, but rather is the wrath of Satan AGAINST those who ARE godly, who follow Jesus.
    This is made abundantly clear in Rev 12.
    Satan tries to destroy Israel, and then goes to destroy those who hold to the testimony of Jesus:
    Rev 12:17* Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

    The PROPHECY of being raptured PRIOR to the onset of the great Tribulation is;
    1. EXHORTING. It promises salvation, but it also threatens the slothful
    2. EDIFYING. Our Faith is matured by believing that Christ's efficacy extends to all areas of God's wrath
    3. COMFORTING. The diligent Christian is comforted with the truth of missing the great Tribulation. He is also comforted by the knowledge that God is just and will leave those who did not pay the price to a corner of His wrath. The diligent Christian has something to work for, and something to gain. He also knows that the slothful Christian will suffer loss and NOT be rewarded.
    Nope, firstly because that is NOT what the prophecy states.
    Secondly because it builds an expectation to avoid tribulation whilst Jesus taught the opposite.
    Thirdly, because it conflates God's wrath with that of Satan. Wrongly insinuating that God cannot tell the difference between those who are His, and this contrary to what is EXPLICITLY stated in Revelation.
    Fourthly, it gives a FALSE comfort for itching ears. It suggests peace and safety on a physical level when our peace and safety is NOT as the world gives it.

  15. #15
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    Re: The Prophetic Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Walls;
    The Revised English Bible says: Luke 21:36 Be on the alert, praying at all time for the strength to pass safely thru all that is coming…..
    This rendering of the Greek word used there is correct, as to say it means 'escape', is a direct contradiction of the previous verse where it is stated; this Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.

    Re God's Seal: This is not given until AFTER the Sixth Seal, as Revelation 7:1-3 plainly says.

    Randyk: The idea of a worldwide Judgment at the Return of Jesus, is simply not prophesied. Then, He destroys the attacking armies and chains up Satan, that is all.
    But understanding the given sequence of the end times events, it is plain and logical that the next thing we can expect is the Sixth Seal. Which will enable the establishment of a One World Govt, to be led after a year or so, by a powerful leader, who will eventually be revealed as the Anti-Christ.
    The Revised English Bible is a dynamic translation. It is not literal. Do you need a dynamic translation to make your point? Here is the original from Luke 21:36 from Strong: Phonetic Pronunciation: ek-fyoo'-go, Root: from <G1537> and <G5343>, Usage Notes: escape X 5, flee X 2, [Total Count: 7], Vine's Words: Escape, Flee, Fled, meaning; "to flee out", "escape", "flee." The REB shows its poverty of translation by ignoring the "ek". "Pass safely through" is the opposite of "flee OUT of". But here is your test. These are the verses that it appears in in scripture. See if you can insert "Pass safely through". I will help you.


    Acts 16:27 (KJV) "And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled."

    Acts 16:27 (According to Keraz) "And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been PASSED SAFELY THROUGH."

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    Acts 19:16 (KJV) "And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded."

    Acts 19:16 (According to Keraz) "And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they PASSED SAFELY THROUGH out of that house naked and wounded."

    Would you like to complete the rest?

    Romans 2:3 (KJV) "And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?"

    2nd Corinthians 11:33 (KJV) "And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands."

    1st Thessalonians 5:3 (KJV) "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

    Hebrews 2:3 (KJV) "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;"

    Brother, you do not do yourself a favor when you must delve into dynamic translations. It shows all that you have a presupposed point that needs special support. How much better to use the literal, and if the literal does not support your point, discard your point.

    As to your answer to Randyk, I am astounded. At Christ's return in Matthew 25:31-46 Christ judges the LIVING of the NATIONS. How can you say that there is no universal judgement? The Church is judged at the Bema (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10), and Israel is a NATION (Exodus 19:6, etc.). That they pass before Christ's Throne of glory is evident in Daniel 12:2-3.

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