Page 2 of 11 FirstFirst 1234567891011 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 160

Thread: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    4,833
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Like you, I too relied on Rom 11 to argue that their blindness is still on.
    Are you saying the "fulness/times of the gentiles" has already occurred/fulfilled?. It has not, thus the blindness remains on all fronts.

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


    Luke 21:24
    And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    Rev 11
    2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.



    God never said the blindness will remain until the end times!
    ???


    The time of the gentiles is a future event, thus it is the end times. The events I quoted in Ez and Joel occur after the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,780
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    No, the prophecy was not fulfilled during the time of Jesus, only that when Jesus was there teaching Jew and people of Israel that there were indeed people of Israel who were blinded. He could not teach them direct words of the truth because they were blinded. Therefore, he spoke in parables. The part regarding the blindness in the prophecy of Isaiah 6:11-12, is prophecy fulfilled in the part that Jesus was dealing with blinded people, and when he spoke to them, he spoke in parables. But he never opened their eyes. Only his disciples eyes were opened.

    It was meant for his disciples to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to the scribes and pharisees, it was not. They were of the stiffneck group and did not accept Jesus, even in light of his miracles. Still, they asked from him a sign. They said, if you are the son of God, show us a sign. This was in the mist of them witnessing all the miracles he did. They still asked for a sign. Jesus said, an evil and stiff neck generation seeks a sign. But he said destroy this temple and in 3 days will I raise it up. That was their sign. Which was his resurrection.

    Matthew 13:
    10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
    12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
    13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
    17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

    So no my friend, they are still blinded. Only a small portion of Israel (in comparison to Israel as a whole) were converted to Christianity. Yeah, 5000 souls were added to the church at the day of Pentecost. That is just a drop in the bucket compared to those who did not convert. And in my opinion was necessary as eye witnesses in order for history to be written; that indeed, a man named Jesus lived, was crucified, seen by many after he was risen, was seen being ascended into Heaven in the clouds.

    But Israel is and has been blinded from the days of Isaiah until now.
    You are still missing the point. To validate your claim that their blindness is still in effect, surely you could have tried to prove Paul wrong in 2 Cor 3:14-16? Instead, you ignored it like it doesn't exist in favour of your unfounded rendition? I've asked this question is all my responses and I'm still waiting for an answer. So I'll repeat, why would Jesus blame the Pharisees for unbelief (if it has not been removed) seeing it is God that said the blindness will come upon them? (Isaiah 6:8-10)

    It is regrettable that you accused Jesus of partiality by claiming that he opened the eyes of the disciples and not the rest of Israel. This statement sadly shows that you failed to heed the scripture (2 Cor 3:16) I gave to you which plainly says that Israel's blindness is taken away when they turn to Christ - not that the blindness will be removed BEFORE they turn to the Lord.

    Obviously, you mistook the faith of the disciples for Jesus Christ' intervention! Every one of the 12 disciples had faith and belief that Jesus was telling the truth about his status. Consequently, the expressed faith/belief negated their inherent blindness. This is consistent with what Paul said in 2 Cor 3:16. Now, since they have believed, Jesus went on to explain to them in Matt 13:10-17 which you quoted, that they have earned the privilege to the hidden meaning of his Gospel which in contrast was hidden to the unbelieving Pharisees!

    I would ask that you put the breaks on and reconsider 2 Cor 3:16 before you run with your conjecture.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    4,833
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You are still missing the point. To validate your claim that their blindness is still in effect, surely you could have tried to prove Paul wrong in 2 Cor 3:14-16? Instead, you ignored it like it doesn't exist in favour of your unfounded rendition? I've asked this question is all my responses and I'm still waiting for an answer. So I'll repeat, why would Jesus blame the Pharisees for unbelief (if it has not been removed) seeing it is God that said the blindness will come upon them? (Isaiah 6:8-10)

    It is regrettable that you accused Jesus of partiality by claiming that he opened the eyes of the disciples and not the rest of Israel. This statement sadly shows that you failed to heed the scripture (2 Cor 3:16) I gave to you which plainly says that Israel's blindness is taken away when they turn to Christ - not that the blindness will be removed BEFORE they turn to the Lord.

    Obviously, you mistook the faith of the disciples for Jesus Christ' intervention! Every one of the 12 disciples had faith and belief that Jesus was telling the truth about his status. Consequently, the expressed faith/belief negated their inherent blindness. This is consistent with what Paul said in 2 Cor 3:16. Now, since they have believed, Jesus went on to explain to them in Matt 13:10-17 which you quoted, that they have earned the privilege to the hidden meaning of his Gospel which in contrast was hidden to the unbelieving Pharisees!

    I would ask that you put the breaks on and reconsider 2 Cor 3:16 before you run with your conjecture.
    The blindness remains until the fulness/times of the gentiles has completed. This has yet happened.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,780
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Are you saying the "fulness/times of the gentiles" has already occurred/fulfilled?. It has not, thus the blindness remains on all fronts.

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    If the blindness remains on all fronts according to you, how do you explain the Jews who believe? With regards to Rom 11:25, I believe that after the Gentiles have come in (presumably in the end-times), the coming of the 2Ws will convert the majority of Israel to Christ.

    Luke 21:24
    And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
    The time of the gentiles is a future event, thus it is the end times. The events I quoted in Ez and Joel occur after the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.
    Throughout the NT, the term *Gentile* was consistently used to contrast non-Jews from Israel. Rev 11:2 is clearly following the same pattern and therefore, has no bearing on the case.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    4,833
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    If the blindness remains on all fronts according to you,
    I was saying to those who do not see the mystery not belief in Christ,

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    When does scripture say this fullness is completed? I would hope we can make the connection that the times and the fulness speak of the same events.

    And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    Now above we see during this time Jerusalem will be trodden down. So then we parallel Rev 11 and tada! answer.

    2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    Not until after a future 42 months is the fulness of the gentiles completed thus the blindness remains.

  6. #21

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You are still missing the point. To validate your claim that their blindness is still in effect, surely you could have tried to prove Paul wrong in 2 Cor 3:14-16? Instead, you ignored it like it doesn't exist in favour of your unfounded rendition? I've asked this question is all my responses and I'm still waiting for an answer. So I'll repeat, why would Jesus blame the Pharisees for unbelief (if it has not been removed) seeing it is God that said the blindness will come upon them? (Isaiah 6:8-10)
    Did you even bother reading what Jesus told his disciples in verse 11?
    "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

    And again in verse 12
    "For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath."

    He continues in verse 13-15:
    "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    Jesus concludes in verse 16-17
    But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
    That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

    Matthew 13:
    10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
    12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
    13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
    17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

    At what point did any of this change? Jesus never healed their ears nor their eyes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It is regrettable that you accused Jesus of partiality by claiming that he opened the eyes of the disciples and not the rest of Israel. This statement sadly shows that you failed to heed the scripture (2 Cor 3:16) I gave to you which plainly says that Israel's blindness is taken away when they turn to Christ - not that the blindness will be removed BEFORE they turn to the Lord.

    Obviously, you mistook the faith of the disciples for Jesus Christ' intervention! Every one of the 12 disciples had faith and belief that Jesus was telling the truth about his status. Consequently, the expressed faith/belief negated their inherent blindness. This is consistent with what Paul said in 2 Cor 3:16. Now, since they have believed, Jesus went on to explain to them in Matt 13:10-17 which you quoted, that they have earned the privilege to the hidden meaning of his Gospel which in contrast was hidden to the unbelieving Pharisees!
    The disciples faith was the intervention of Jesus. Jesus is the one who called his disciples to his ministry and opened their eyes that he was Christ. And they believed. And yes, there was partiality. "To those who believe that Jesus is the son of God." For those who believe, their eyes were opened, and opened wide.

    So call it partiality if you wish. Faith is the prerequisite to have eyes opened, ears opened, and hearts healed to be converted.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I would ask that you put the breaks on and reconsider 2 Cor 3:16 before you run with your conjecture.
    Paul was not successful in winning over but just a few of Israel to Christ. And as he stated, for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; He states that only in faith to Christ can the vail be removed. Why, because of their "unbelief".

    But he concludes by saying, "when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away."

    And Paul made that clear below.
    2 Corinthians 3:
    14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
    15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
    16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

    So the question to ask yourself; is when will they believe?

  7. #22

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Romans 11:25 V-RIA-3S Perfect Indicative Active
    GRK: ἐκλογὴν χάριτος γέγονεν
    NAS: there has also come to be at the present
    KJV: time also there is a remnant according
    INT: election of grace there has been

    Romans 11:25 V-ASA-3S Aorist Subjunctive Active
    GRK: τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ
    NAS: of the Gentiles has come in;
    KJV: of the Gentiles be come in.
    INT: of the Gentiles be come in

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    ADELAIDE / South Australia
    Posts
    3,802

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It's imperative that we recognise the order; it doesn't say the blindness will first be removed BEFORE a Jew believes. Rather, he must first believe and then through his expression of faith/belief, his blindness is removed. If this is not the case, why would God blind them to the truth and still blame them for unbelief?
    Cool

    These scriptures come to mind...,


    Acts 17
    30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.

    Rom 1
    8 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

    Nobody can claim that the blindness wasn't lifted for them.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Oklahoma - USA
    Posts
    530

    Cool Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post

    Nobody can claim that the blindness wasn't lifted for them.
    I claim it. It depends on whom is Israel. It is not just the Jews. You can't wrangle a couple of scriptures to make it say something it does not.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,639

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I will start with your conclusion and work my way up. Rev 1:7 simply says that Israel like the Gentiles, will see Jesus coming in the clouds. I don't see it as God "removing their blindness". May I refer you to post #12 for the reasons I believe their blindness has been removed? Indeed, God's Abrahamic Covenant is everlasting, but it does not negate the requirement for them to believe in the Messiah. As Paul said in 2 Cor 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away, they MUST accept Christ before the blindness is removed.

    I personally disagree with those who say that Israel has been cast off forever because Paul was emphatic that they *if* they believe, they will be grafted in again (Rom 11:23). Many OT prophets and NT Apostles quoted Isaiah. However, there is no evidence that God continued to blind them while at the same time, accuse them of unbelief. This doesn't sound like the God I serve.

    With regards to the gathering of Israel, that has already been fulfilled. What is remaining is for the minority that believes to turn to the majority. This I believe, will take a seismic event like the coming of the 2Ws and perhaps, Jesus Christ' supplication upon them (Zech 12:10).
    What I suggested is that the passage about seeing Jesus coming in the clouds is taken from Zech 11, where the context is the recovery of Israel from a fallen state. Paul talks about how Israel is presently in a state of blindness, with only a small remnant among them being Christian.

    I really have a different perspective than you. I see Israel just like any other nation, with a Christian remnant, and hope for the rest. But inasmuch as Israel had a unique calling, I do believe Israel will once against become a fully compliant nation, observing God's word. But just like other nations, the hardened majority will have to be broken.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,780
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Did you even bother reading what Jesus told his disciples in verse 11?
    "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

    And again in verse 12
    "For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath."

    He continues in verse 13-15:
    "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    Jesus concludes in verse 16-17
    But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
    That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

    Matthew 13:
    10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
    12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
    13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
    17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

    At what point did any of this change? Jesus never healed their ears nor their eyes.
    You have the proclivity to quote many scriptures without actually paying attention to what they mean. You argued in post #7 that "when the blindness is removed, then Israel will see Jesus as Messiah". To correct this view, I pointed you to 1 Cor 3:16 that says they must first believe before their blindness is removed.

    Here again, you continued to err by quoting a bunch of scriptures where Jesus told the disciples that they have the privilege of knowing the secrets of the Gospel, unlike their unbelieving folk. I stated this to you yesterday and went to explain in unambiguous terms that the reason is that the disciples had shown faith and belief in Christ in accordance with 1 Cor 3:16.

    So what exactly did you achieve by quoting these scriptures and in the end contradicted yourself by saying "Jesus never healed their ears nor their eyes"? The same point I keep trying to impart to you. The contradiction is that you said yesterday "when their blindness is removed they shall see Jesus as Messiah" a position you seem to correct today. Hopefully, you'll be magnanimous by acknowledging that this oxymoron was a mistake, perhaps unintended because alludes to their blindness being taken away first BEFORE they see/believe in Jesus. Order of events that the scriptures contradict, that's all am saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    The disciples faith was the intervention of Jesus. Jesus is the one who called his disciples to his ministry and opened their eyes that he was Christ. And they believed. And yes, there was partiality. "To those who believe that Jesus is the son of God." For those who believe, their eyes were opened, and opened wide.

    So call it partiality if you wish. Faith is the prerequisite to have eyes opened, ears opened, and hearts healed to be converted.
    It takes faith to accept the call and believe Jesus when the majority would not. So there's "intervention" from Jesus to make the disciples believe in him. They believed by faith and Jesus went on to prove them right. I do hope you are aware that the disciples were initially more than 12? But due to unbelief, the others left leaving just 12. So if Jesus had intervened in their call, i.e. removed their blindness, why then did they leave?

    I agree that FAITH is the precursor to the lifting of the blindness, etc. And I am glad you have finally come round to acknowledge that "blindness doesn't need to be removed before belief" as you asserted yesterday.

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Paul was not successful in winning over but just a few of Israel to Christ. And as he stated, for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; He states that only in faith to Christ can the vail be removed. Why, because of their "unbelief".

    But he concludes by saying, "when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away."

    And Paul made that clear below.
    2 Corinthians 3:
    14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
    15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
    16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

    So the question to ask yourself; is when will they believe?
    Your question is merely rhetorical and need not an answer.

    1. Paul's commission was not primarily to convert Israel but the Gentiles, therefore, I see no point to your comment.
    2. Again, you cited ( 1Cor 3:16 But he concludes by saying, "when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.") which I brought to your attention yesterday. The text is self-explanatory: they must believe first. It is the act of faith/belief that actually takes away the veil of blindness.

    OveralI your position has significantly changed from what it was yesterday to today. It suggests you actually paid attention to what I said and recognised that the theory of removal of blindness before they see Jesus as Messiah is untenable.
    Last edited by Trivalee; May 14th 2019 at 12:18 PM.

  12. #27

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You the proclivity to quote many scriptures without actually paying attention to what they mean. You argued in post #7 that "when the blindness is removed, then Israel will see Jesus as Messiah". To correct this view, I pointed you to 1 Cor 3:16 that says they must first believe before their blindness is removed.

    Here again, you continued to err by quoting a bunch of scriptures where Jesus told the disciples that they have the privilege of knowing the secrets of the Gospel, unlike their unbelieving folk. I stated this to you yesterday and went to explain in unambiguous terms that the reason is that the disciples had shown faith and belief in Christ in accordance with 1 Cor 3:16.

    So what exactly did you achieve by quoting these scriptures and in the end contradicted yourself by saying "Jesus never healed their ears nor their eyes"? The same point I keep trying to impart to you. The contradiction is that you said yesterday "when their blindness is removed they shall see Jesus as Messiah" a position you seem to correct today. Hopefully, you'll be magnanimous by acknowledging that this oxymoron was a mistake, perhaps unintended because alludes to their blindness being taken away first BEFORE they see/believe in Jesus. Order of events that the scriptures contradict, that's all am saying.

    Well then, I think I need to apologize to you; if I led you to believe anything in err. I should have broken it down to a level of detail that you could understand. Most readers on here are able to keep up. But I can see now, that was a huge mistake on my part.

    But that's ok, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It takes faith to accept the call and believe Jesus when the majority would not. So there's "intervention" from Jesus to make the disciples believe in him. They believed by faith and Jesus went on to prove them right. I do hope you are aware that the disciples were initially more than 12? But due to unbelief, the others left leaving just 12. So if Jesus had intervened in their call, i.e. removed their blindness, why then did they leave?

    Good question! Why did they leave? Why was Paul so frustrated with those he preached to, seeing that they would not give up the traditions of the Mosaic Law and follow Jesus by faith?

    If you spend time studying the walks of the apostles, you will be able to see that this was one of the hardest battles they faced with Jew and Israel converts, was getting them to live by faith rather than by works. So yes, some departed from the way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I agree that FAITH is the precursor to the lifting of the blindness, etc. And I am glad you have finally come round to acknowledge that "blindness doesn't need to be removed before belief" as you asserted yesterday.

    Well my brother, I too am glad that you are glad. Now this may come as a shocker, "but everybody on here understood this but you".


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Your question is merely rhetorical and need not an answer.

    1. Paul's commission was not primarily to convert Israel but the Gentiles, therefore, I see no point to your comment.
    2. Again, you cited ( 1Cor 3:16 But he concludes by saying, "when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.") which I brought to your attention yesterday. The text is self-explanatory: they must believe first. It is the act of faith/belief that actually takes away the veil of blindness.

    OveralI your position has significantly changed from what it was yesterday to today. It suggests you actually paid attention to what I said and recognised that the theory of removal of blindness before they see Jesus as Messiah is untenable.

    Then I can only conclude by saying this; I praise God that the veil has been lifted from your head too. Welcome home my brother.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,780
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Well then, I think I need to apologize to you; if I led you to believe anything in err. I should have broken it down to a level of detail that you could understand. Most readers on here are able to keep up. But I can see now, that was a huge mistake on my part.

    But that's ok, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then.

    Good question! Why did they leave? Why was Paul so frustrated with those he preached to, seeing that they would not give up the traditions of the Mosaic Law and follow Jesus by faith?

    If you spend time studying the walks of the apostles, you will be able to see that this was one of the hardest battles they faced with Jew and Israel converts, was getting them to live by faith rather than by works. So yes, some departed from the way.

    Well my brother, I too am glad that you are glad. Now this may come as a shocker, "but everybody on here understood this but you".

    Then I can only conclude by saying this; I praise God that the veil has been lifted from your head too. Welcome home my brother.
    I apologise for trying too hard to help you understand the proper meaning of the doctrine. I see you rather throw my efforts to help you back in my face and insult me for good measure. I wish you the best in your studies.

  14. #29

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    God spoke through Isaiah:

    chapter 6:9 [FONT="]And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.[/FONT]10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

    This became a recurring theme throughout the Bible; paraphrased by other OT prophets and NT Apostles. A lot has been said about this topic, but I'm hoping for a rethink and review of our understanding of our understanding of the passage.

    My question therefore is, has this blindness of heart been removed from Israel or not? If you believe it has, what is your scriptural evidence? The same goes for those who believe it is not yet removed.
    Blindness is removed from the Jews (and anyone else) when they turn to Jesus as the passage you cited from Isaiah says.

    So no. For the most part, blindness has not been removed from the Jewish people. In fact, the antichrist teaching of Zionism has distorted prophecy which is only fulfilled in Christ.

    This so called "Christian" support of the Jewish people seems so good, but is so diabolical, the harm being done to the Jewish people of today is criminal.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    4,833
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Blindness is removed from the Jews (and anyone else) when they turn to Jesus as the passage you cited from Isaiah says.

    So no. For the most part, blindness has not been removed from the Jewish people. In fact, the antichrist teaching of Zionism has distorted prophecy which is only fulfilled in Christ.

    This so called "Christian" support of the Jewish people seems so good, but is so diabolical, the harm being done to the Jewish people of today is criminal.
    If they received Christ then they are not Jews. There still a remnant which is blind until the fullness of the gentiles is completed

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Discussion What is the blindness refering to
    By Trivalee in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: Jul 29th 2017, 07:18 PM
  2. Is Darkness Synonomous With Ignorance/Blindness?
    By VerticalReality in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: Jul 26th 2017, 06:20 PM
  3. Spiritual Blindness
    By Equipped_4_Love in forum Growing in Christ
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: Nov 4th 2009, 05:29 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •