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Thread: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

  1. #31

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    There still a remnant which is blind until the fullness of the gentiles is completed
    Right.

    [contrasted here:]

    Romans 11:12 -

    Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?


    Romans 11:25 -

    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles [U]be come in [G1525 - eiselthē / eiserchomai]. [to be understood along Rom11:15 and all of its parallels, which parallels provide "timing"/"chronology"]

  2. #32

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    If they received Christ then they are not Jews.
    That's what Judaism claims. Jesus never taught that and the Apostles continued to think of themselves as Jews,

    But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew
    Act. 21:39

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    There still a remnant which is blind until the fullness of the gentiles is completed
    My friend, Paul is saying "the fullness of the gentiles" to show not all gentiles will be saved, that gentiles will be cut off some day, not to think of themselves as special, that they are saved by faith, the same way not all Jews will be saved, only the faithful. He was warning them.

    The remnant isn't blind. Paul is teaching the remnant began in his day. It included the Lords disciples and was the result of Jesus coming into the world.

  3. #33

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Right.

    [contrasted here:]

    Romans 11:12 -

    Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?


    Romans 11:25 -

    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles [U]be come in [G1525 - eiselthē / eiserchomai]. [to be understood along Rom11:15 and all of its parallels, which parallels provide "timing"/"chronology"]
    By the fullness of the gentiles, Paul is referring to all believing gentiles, that they should be a blessing to unbelieving Jews,

    Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. vs.31

    The same way Paul (the Jew) showed them mercy, being sent to them because of the Jews unbelief.

  4. #34
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    That's what Judaism claims. Jesus never taught that and the Apostles continued to think of themselves as Jews,

    But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew
    Act. 21:39
    1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  5. #35

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
    "Under the law' (observant) doesn't = Jew. Paul was still Jewish whether he practiced ritual or not. He was born Jewish.

    A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew....and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew
    http://www.jewfaq.org/m/whoisjew.htm

    For I also am an Israelite Rom.11:1

    God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew vs.2 Paul isn't saying, "All Jews are God's people."

    Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? vs.2

    What's his point? God had 7000 men and so,

    Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. vs.5

    He's referring to Jesus's followers, not 2000 years in the future.

    What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for;[b] but the election hath obtained it, and the rest[/] were blinded vs.7

    The rest of the Jews, as opposed to the believing (elect) Jews.

    It's apparent from the text that gentiles started developing an attitude that God was finished with the Jews. Paul was warning them that it was never about being born Jewish, but about faith in God.

  6. #36
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    "Under the law' (observant) doesn't = Jew.
    That is what it means.

    Paul was still Jewish whether he practiced ritual or not. He was born Jewish.
    Sure but religiously he was a Christian not a Jew and only acted as a Jew religiously to gain religious Jews.


    A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew....and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew
    http://www.jewfaq.org/m/whoisjew.htm
    Ethnicity is meaningless on this subject.




    It's apparent from the text that gentiles started developing an attitude that God was finished with the Jews. Paul was warning them that it was never about being born Jewish, but about faith in God.
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    "Under the law' (observant) doesn't = Jew.
    That is what it means.

    Paul was still Jewish whether he practiced ritual or not. He was born Jewish.
    Sure but religiously he was a Christian not a Jew and only acted as a Jew religiously to gain religious Jews.


    A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew....and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew
    http://www.jewfaq.org/m/whoisjew.htm
    Ethnicity is meaningless on this subject.




    It's apparent from the text that gentiles started developing an attitude that God was finished with the Jews. Paul was warning them that it was never about being born Jewish, but about faith in God.
    See above.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  7. #37
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    I will reiterate my position, for clarity. Leaving the issue of Replacement Theology aside, I am dealing with Israel as the nation in the Middle East, and am dealing with all other nations as nation-states. The Jews, in the NT era, are unlike other nations in the sense that they were the 1st to have the gospel of Christ preached to them.

    At that time, when Christ had his early ministry, and when the apostles ministered in Israel, only a small remnant of Jews converted to Christianity. The nation, in earlier times, had committed to faith in God as a whole nation. They had been a theocracy.

    But by the time Christ came, the nation had fallen on hard times, and was backslidden. And this is what called for the ministry of John the Baptist, which was a call to the nation for repentance. There were initial signs of repentance, but that quickly evaporated as Jesus' message of the cross was unbearable to the majority.

    Eventually Rabbinic Judaism became the blueprint for the Jewish nation, and continues to the present day. The nation was destroyed in the time period 70 - 135 AD, but the Jews continued on as a people in their Diaspora, hoping for many years for the restoration of their nation.

    Paul characterized the Jewish People as "blind" during this time because the vast majority continued in Rabbinic Judaism or in some form of idolatry--most rejected Jesus as their Messiah. Most failed to convert to Christianity.

    Paul also went on to declare that when Jesus returns, the Jewish People will be regathered in their nation-state, and will once again become a theocracy, a nation committed to a Christian Constitution, so to speak.

    What we can say, for the present, is that Jews who at the present convert to Christianity have their eyes opened. The majority of Jews, however, continue to be blind in Rabbinic Judaism or in idolatry. What this means is that the Jewish People are largely blind, but can be healed of their spiritual blindness *now!*

    But as far a biblical prophecy goes, the Age to Come will not come for Israel until after Messiah returns, when the nation, as a whole, will have its eyes opened, and they will see Jesus as their Messiah. Then the nation will, once again, conform as a nation to godly standards. Christianity will reign in Israel most assuredly.

    Israel is difficult to compare with other nations because she is unique as the 1st nation to be a true theocracy, and the 1st to hear Christianity. However, the same Christian message can affect other nations in the same way Israel has been affected over the last 3500 years. Other nations may become Christian theocracies, adopting a Christian Constitution, or may simply have small Christian remnants, as Israel presently does.

    It all depends upon the present state of those nations. They may rise, spiritually, and they may fall. Currently, Christian civilization, along with its associated nations, appears to have been falling for some time!

  8. #38
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    Cool Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I will reiterate my position, for clarity. Leaving the issue of Replacement Theology aside, I am dealing with Israel as the nation in the Middle East, and am dealing with all other nations as nation-states. The Jews, in the NT era, are unlike other nations in the sense that they were the 1st to have the gospel of Christ preached to them.

    At that time, when Christ had his early ministry, and when the apostles ministered in Israel, only a small remnant of Jews converted to Christianity. The nation, in earlier times, had committed to faith in God as a whole nation. They had been a theocracy.

    But by the time Christ came, the nation had fallen on hard times, and was backslidden. And this is what called for the ministry of John the Baptist, which was a call to the nation for repentance. There were initial signs of repentance, but that quickly evaporated as Jesus' message of the cross was unbearable to the majority.

    Eventually Rabbinic Judaism became the blueprint for the Jewish nation, and continues to the present day. The nation was destroyed in the time period 70 - 135 AD, but the Jews continued on as a people in their Diaspora, hoping for many years for the restoration of their nation.

    Paul characterized the Jewish People as "blind" during this time because the vast majority continued in Rabbinic Judaism or in some form of idolatry--most rejected Jesus as their Messiah. Most failed to convert to Christianity.

    Paul also went on to declare that when Jesus returns, the Jewish People will be regathered in their nation-state, and will once again become a theocracy, a nation committed to a Christian Constitution, so to speak.

    What we can say, for the present, is that Jews who at the present convert to Christianity have their eyes opened. The majority of Jews, however, continue to be blind in Rabbinic Judaism or in idolatry. What this means is that the Jewish People are largely blind, but can be healed of their spiritual blindness *now!*

    But as far a biblical prophecy goes, the Age to Come will not come for Israel until after Messiah returns, when the nation, as a whole, will have its eyes opened, and they will see Jesus as their Messiah. Then the nation will, once again, conform as a nation to godly standards. Christianity will reign in Israel most assuredly.

    Israel is difficult to compare with other nations because she is unique as the 1st nation to be a true theocracy, and the 1st to hear Christianity. However, the same Christian message can affect other nations in the same way Israel has been affected over the last 3500 years. Other nations may become Christian theocracies, adopting a Christian Constitution, or may simply have small Christian remnants, as Israel presently does.

    It all depends upon the present state of those nations. They may rise, spiritually, and they may fall. Currently, Christian civilization, along with its associated nations, appears to have been falling for some time!
    Amen brother. Israel today is not something that God is putting together. It is an institution of man by man and they don't even have a right to the name Israel. I am sure that was Satan's idea from the start. They should call themselves Judah for that is what they are. When Christ comes back and establishes them it will be right.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  9. #39

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That is what it means.

    Sure but religiously he was a Christian not a Jew
    Jesus properly taught the Torah, so religiously the Apostles were following the Jewish faith properly, the faith of their fathers the right way.

    and only acted as a Jew religiously to gain religious Jews.
    Gain them to what....a new religion? Steal them away to heresy? That's what unbelieving Jews thought and still think to this day, but Jesus said,

    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mt.5:17

    Ethnicity is meaningless on this subject.
    That's right,

    They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God Rom.9:8

    But they said,

    Abraham is our father.... we have one Father, even God. Jn.8:39,41

    So Jesus said,

    If God were your Father, ye would love me: Jn.8:42

    See above.
    He was speaking to the gentiles. He was warning them about heresy that has now, 2000 years later, twisted the teachings of Jesus almost beyond recognition.

  10. #40

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    For the record, "replacement theology" is where Jesus is ignored in the reading of the OT. Replacement theology says, in the future, the Messiah will gather all Jews to the Middle East, instead of to the Kingdom of God as Jesus does.

  11. #41
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Amen brother. Israel today is not something that God is putting together. It is an institution of man by man and they don't even have a right to the name Israel. I am sure that was Satan's idea from the start. They should call themselves Judah for that is what they are. When Christ comes back and establishes them it will be right.
    Well, I certainly don't go as far as you do with this! I don't suggest that Israel has no right to the name "Israel!" Nor do I think that was "Satan's idea!" Nor do I think the Israelites are somehow "Judah."

    But I do agree with you that for 2000 years most of Israel, ie the Jews, have been on the wrong side of God, and did not display what it means to be the "Israel of God." They were not messengers of the Faith of God, nor witnesses of the Law of God. Having rejected their Messiah some of them may have lived exemplary moral lives, but apart from Christ they could not communicate the Gospel of spiritual salvation to the world. All they communicated was "law" and "humanism."

    But inasmuch as Israel is indeed in prophecy, I do believe that Israel has been maintained, by God's mercy, for the sake of their descendants, some of whom will repent and embrace their Messiah. And at the coming of Jesus, they will, as a nation, embrace a Christian Constitution, and recognize that true spirituality, as well as atonement for their sins, comes only by Jesus.

  12. #42
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    For the record, "replacement theology" is where Jesus is ignored in the reading of the OT. Replacement theology says, in the future, the Messiah will gather all Jews to the Middle East, instead of to the Kingdom of God as Jesus does.
    No, that is not Replacement Theology. RT denies Israel's place in the future Millennial Kingdom. It denies Israel's legitimacy as a current ethnic group, or nationality, recognized by God as a prophetic entity.

    Bringing Israel back into the Middle East is the 1st step in fulfilling the Millennial Hope of Israel. Once Christ returns, the Jews will be brought under judgment, removing the obstinate and granting repentance to the humble. Then, the nation may enter into God's Kingdom both spiritually and physically.

    This is important not just for Israel, as a nation, but also for all other nations. I believe that Israel is the prototype for all nations. If Israel can be saved as a nation, after centuries of obstinacy and judgment, then mercy can be shown, in the same way, to all nations.

  13. #43

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, that is not Replacement Theology. RT denies Israel's place in the future Millennial Kingdom. It denies Israel's legitimacy as a current ethnic group, or nationality, recognized by God as a prophetic entity.

    Bringing Israel back into the Middle East is the 1st step in fulfilling the Millennial Hope of Israel. Once Christ returns, the Jews will be brought under judgment, removing the obstinate and granting repentance to the humble. Then, the nation may enter into God's Kingdom both spiritually and physically.

    This is important not just for Israel, as a nation, but also for all other nations. I believe that Israel is the prototype for all nations. If Israel can be saved as a nation, after centuries of obstinacy and judgment, then mercy can be shown, in the same way, to all nations.
    Mercy is already available to the nations. God grants repentance to the humble now and we know this because the Messiah appeared to ethnic Israel and they went about declaring this and wrote the NT.

  14. #44
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post

    Gain them to what....a new religion? Steal them away to heresy?
    Christianity isn't heresy.

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post

    Gain them to what....a new religion? Steal them away to heresy?
    Christianity isn't heresy.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #45

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Christianity isn't heresy.
    Not the way Jesus taught, but we're in a time now where Christian theology is far from what the Messiah said.

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