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Thread: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

  1. #46
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Not the way Jesus taught, but we're in a time now where Christian theology is far from what the Messiah said.
    You applied it to Paul though. He became as a Jew to gain Jews to a new religion-Christianity not to a heresy as you claimed, "Gain them to what....a new religion? Steal them away to heresy?"
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  2. #47

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    You applied it to Paul though. He became as a Jew to gain Jews to a new religion-Christianity not to a heresy as you claimed, "Gain them to what....a new religion? Steal them away to heresy?"
    That's what Jews who don't recognize the Messiah think. I was asking you a question that needs no answer. Jesus's teaching were not the beginning of a new religion to the Apostles. It was their own religion properly understood.

  3. #48
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Jesus's teaching were not the beginning of a new religion to the Apostles. It was their own religion properly understood.
    No, it was a new religion with a new covenant. Those in Judaism are in the wrong religion and are unsaved. Only born again Christians have the chance to be saved and have immortality.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  4. #49
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    If they received Christ then they are not Jews. There still a remnant which is blind until the fullness of the gentiles is completed
    So what makes them *Jews* in your opinion is their rejection of Christ? Interesting insight, indeed.

  5. #50
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    That's what Judaism claims. Jesus never taught that and the Apostles continued to think of themselves as Jews,

    But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew Act. 21:39
    I concur. Often people forget that being a Jew is also about ethnicity. Thus, Paul's statement in Acts 21:39 is merely to identify his Jewish roots which is his case, has nothing to do with Judaism.

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    The remnant isn't blind. Paul is teaching the remnant began in his day. It included the Lords disciples and was the result of Jesus coming into the world.
    True. The remnant includes all the Jews that have turned to Christ from the 1st century to the modern day Messianic Jews. It also includes those that will convert in the future.

  6. #51
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    By the fullness of the gentiles, Paul is referring to all believing gentiles, that they should be a blessing to unbelieving Jews,

    Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. vs.31

    The same way Paul (the Jew) showed them mercy, being sent to them because of the Jews unbelief.
    I have not considered the text (Rom 11:25) in this way before. Thanks for showing there's another way to understand it.

  7. #52
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
    I'm not sure whether you're in support of Journeyman or against? If you ask me, I would say that 1 Cor 9:20 as quoted corroborates with Acts 21:39. Paul identified with his Jewish roots to reason with his Jewish brethren.

  8. #53
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Sure but religiously he was a Christian not a Jew and only acted as a Jew religiously to gain religious Jews.
    I don't know what you mean by "religiously" Paul was not a Jew? Since we have Chinese, American, English Christians, I don't know why we can't add Jewish Christian to the label? The common denominator between the Christians I mentioned is their ethnicity or nation, Jewish converts are no different.

    Ethnicity is meaningless on this subject.
    We are not talking Christianity in the spiritual sense (Gal 3:27-28). The focus is on the physical identity. We have many black people in my church. While we race and tribe doesn't exist in the spiritual definition of Christians, we cannot deny it on the physical. Throughout the Bible, Greek believers were often identified on purpose not only in reference to their being Gentiles but also in inference to their ethnicity as well.

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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, that is not Replacement Theology. RT denies Israel's place in the future Millennial Kingdom. It denies Israel's legitimacy as a current ethnic group, or nationality, recognized by God as a prophetic entity.

    Bringing Israel back into the Middle East is the 1st step in fulfilling the Millennial Hope of Israel. Once Christ returns, the Jews will be brought under judgment, removing the obstinate and granting repentance to the humble. Then, the nation may enter into God's Kingdom both spiritually and physically.

    This is important not just for Israel, as a nation, but also for all other nations. I believe that Israel is the prototype for all nations. If Israel can be saved as a nation, after centuries of obstinacy and judgment, then mercy can be shown, in the same way, to all nations.
    I may be wrong. But I believe there's little disagreement between you and Journeyman save for his error that "Jesus is ignored in the reading of OT". Jesus wasn't identified in the OT. But you're both in agreement that believing Jews will be ushered into the kingdom of God when Jesus return.

  10. #55
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    You applied it to Paul though. He became as a Jew to gain Jews to a new religion-Christianity.
    Paul was born a Jew and couldn't have "became a Jew". Rather, what he meant by to the Jew, I became a Jew is simply that he spoke to Jews as one of them, i.e. a Jew. Not that he converts to a Jew to speak to Jews and drops the label afterwards.

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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No, it was a new religion with a new covenant. Those in Judaism are in the wrong religion and are unsaved. Only born again Christians have the chance to be saved and have immortality.
    I like the way you defined it: a new religion based on a new covenant. Perfect!

  12. #57

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No, it was a new religion with a new covenant.
    The new covenant was made between God and the Jewish people,

    Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah Jer.31:31

    Those in Judaism are in the wrong religion and are unsaved.
    Their religion is misunderstood by them. Jesus wasn't creating a brand new religion. He was correcting their misunderstanding about their own religion.

    Only born again Christians have the chance to be saved and have immortality.
    I know that dear friend, but the word "Christian" means "follower of Christ" and Christ means Messiah.

  13. #58

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Would you care to elaborate on why the Christian support for Jewish people Israel "is harmful and diabolical?"
    It's because the land can only be entered by faith in Jesus. It cannot be taken by human force. It cannot be built by human means. It's regardless of what human governments agree or disagree about.

    For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1Cor.3:11

    People who don't see this are under the delusion of antichrist.

    I have a question for you,

    And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie 2Thes.2:11

    Why would God send a strong delusion to people who are already deluded?

  14. #59

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No, it was a new religion with a new covenant. Those in Judaism are in the wrong religion and are unsaved. Only born again Christians have the chance to be saved and have immortality.
    Who did Jesus come to save then? Is he the savior of the "whole world" as spoken of in scripture? I hope you haven't reduced Jesus to a failure to do the will of God and accomplish his purpose.

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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    It's because the land can only be entered by faith in Jesus. It cannot be taken by human force. It cannot be built by human means. It's regardless of what human governments agree or disagree about.

    For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1Cor.3:11

    People who don't see this are under the delusion of antichrist.

    I have a question for you,

    And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie 2Thes.2:11

    Why would God send a strong delusion to people who are already deluded?
    God promised Abraham a piece of land for his descendants. It fell to Moses to actualize that, although he couldn't in the end. So Joshua did. But God who never fails kept his promise and against the odds the Israelites entered Canaan albeit 40 years too late. After 1950 years of exile, Israel returned again to that promised homeland. Their return in 1948 has nothing to do with faith!

    Looks like you are confusing the earthly Jerusalem (nation of Israel today) with the heavenly Jerusalem that will come down at the eschaton - the one that FAITH is required to enter in? Once you understand the difference between the two, everything falls into place.

    2 Thess 2:11 has no bearing on the subject, nevertheless, scripture never said the delusion will be poured exclusively on Israel. Actually, it will be poured out on that are in unbelief - Jew/Gentile.

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