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Thread: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

  1. #61
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I don't know what you mean by "religiously" Paul was not a Jew? Since we have Chinese, American, English Christians, I don't know why we can't add Jewish Christian to the label?
    That still makes him a Christian not a Jew in the religious sense.



    We are not talking Christianity in the spiritual sense (Gal 3:27-28). The focus is on the physical identity. We have many black people in my church. While we race and tribe doesn't exist in the spiritual definition of Christians, we cannot deny it on the physical.
    Jewishness in the physical sense is meaningless since the cross. The only thing that matters to God is whether a person is Christian or not. That's the only qualifier for salvation.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  2. #62
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Paul was born a Jew and couldn't have "became a Jew".
    I used Paul's own words. "unto the Jews I became as a Jew"
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  3. #63
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    The new covenant was made between God and the Jewish people,

    Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah Jer.31:31
    It was only made between God and those who followed Christ. Those that reject the new covenant and claim to keep the old covenant are not part of the new covenant.


    Their religion is misunderstood by them. Jesus wasn't creating a brand new religion. He was correcting their misunderstanding about their own religion.
    That simply isn't true. The religion God wanted followed would be completely different than Judaism was, even from it's beginning when it was not corrupted.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  4. #64
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xylon View Post
    Who did Jesus come to save then?
    Anyone who would accept and follow him. Those that reject him will also be rejected and will not be saved.

    Luk 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
    Luk 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  5. #65

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    God promised Abraham a piece of land for his descendants. It fell to Moses to actualize that, although he couldn't in the end. So Joshua did. But God who never fails kept his promise and against the odds the Israelites entered Canaan albeit 40 years too late. After 1950 years of exile, Israel returned again to that promised homeland. Their return in 1948 has nothing to do with faith! Looks like you are confusing the earthly Jerusalem (nation of Israel today) with the heavenly Jerusalem that will come down at the eschaton - the one that FAITH is required to enter in? Once you understand the difference between the two, everything falls into place.
    When I read passages like Gal.3:16 and Heb.11, everything falls into place and contradicts every single point you just made. Every one of them.

    2 Thess 2:11 has no bearing on the subject, nevertheless, scripture never said the delusion will be poured exclusively on Israel. Actually, it will be poured out on that are in unbelief - Jew/Gentile.
    I agree it does pertain to Jews and gentiles. The delusion is so strong, the people caught in it are absolutely convinced that they're right.

  6. #66

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It was only made between God and those who followed Christ. Those that reject the new covenant and claim to keep the old covenant are not part of the new covenant.

    That simply isn't true. The religion God wanted followed would be completely different than Judaism was, even from it's beginning when it was not corrupted.
    I was referring to the desired effect the law should have had on people.

  7. #67
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That still makes him a Christian not a Jew in the religious sense. Jewishness in the physical sense is meaningless since the cross. The only thing that matters to God is whether a person is Christian or not. That's the only qualifier for salvation.
    Let me try another tack, hopefully, I'll get through to you this time.

    1. Jewishness is NOT a religion. It is ethnicity.
    2. Therefore a Jew may follow Judaism or Christianity - but none of these religions negates his Jewish identity!
    3. A Chinese or American that is a Christian NEVER stops being a Chineseman or an American. It is the same for the Jew - his chosen religion doesn't make him any less a Jew. For e.g., Paul never denied he was a Jew despite being a Christian
    4. The problem with your view is that you strictly associate the word *Jew* to Judaism and the Law. While both are true, the definition of Jew is much broader than your limited and narrow view of it.

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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I used Paul's own words. "unto the Jews I became as a Jew"
    What Paul meant is that he identified with the Jews as one of them himself, i.e. he reminded them he was born a Jew like them.

  9. #69
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    When I read passages like Gal.3:16 and Heb.11, everything falls into place and contradicts every single point you just made. Every one of them.
    If you say so.
    There's nothing in Gal 3:16 and Heb 11 that remotely disagrees with me. But then again, you won't be the first or last to read a text and misunderstand what it teaches.

  10. #70
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Let me try another tack, hopefully, I'll get through to you this time.

    1. Jewishness is NOT a religion. It is ethnicity.
    It's both.


    2. Therefore a Jew may follow Judaism or Christianity - but none of these religions negates his Jewish identity!
    Yeah I know.

    3. A Chinese or American that is a Christian NEVER stops being a Chineseman or an American. It is the same for the Jew - his chosen religion doesn't make him any less a Jew. For e.g., Paul never denied he was a Jew despite being a Christian
    Being a Christian means one is no longer a Jew is the religious sense as I have said all along.

    4. The problem with your view is that you strictly associate the word *Jew* to Judaism and the Law. While both are true, the definition of Jew is much broader than your limited and narrow view of it.
    This is your own confusion since I have never strictly associated the word *Jew* to Judaism and the Law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Let me try another tack, hopefully, I'll get through to you this time.

    1. Jewishness is NOT a religion. It is ethnicity.
    It's both.


    2. Therefore a Jew may follow Judaism or Christianity - but none of these religions negates his Jewish identity!
    Yeah I know.

    3. A Chinese or American that is a Christian NEVER stops being a Chineseman or an American. It is the same for the Jew - his chosen religion doesn't make him any less a Jew. For e.g., Paul never denied he was a Jew despite being a Christian
    Being a Christian means one is no longer a Jew is the religious sense as I have said all along.

    4. The problem with your view is that you strictly associate the word *Jew* to Judaism and the Law. While both are true, the definition of Jew is much broader than your limited and narrow view of it.
    This is your own confusion since I have never strictly associated the word *Jew* to Judaism and the Law.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  11. #71
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    What Paul meant is that he identified with the Jews as one of them himself, i.e. he reminded them he was born a Jew like them.
    He is talking Jewishness as in the religious sense here not ethnically. He used his knowledge of Judaism to argue with the Jews about Christ being the prophesied Messiah.


    Gill:

    1 Corinthians 9:20
    And unto the Jews I became as a Jew,.... That is, in religion; or with respect to some religious observances peculiar to the Jews

    Barnes:

    I became as a Jew - I complied with their rites, customs, prejudices, as far as I could with a good conscience. I did not needlessly offend them. I did not attack and oppose their views, when there was no danger that my conduct should be mistaken. For a full illustration of Paul’s conduct in this respect, and the principles which influenced him, see the notes on Act_16:3; Act_18:18; Act_21:21-27; Act_23:1-6.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  12. #72

    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    If you say so.
    There's nothing in Gal 3:16 and Heb 11 that remotely disagrees with me. But then again, you won't be the first or last to read a text and misunderstand what it teaches.
    Originally posted by Trivalee
    God promised Abraham a piece of land for his descendants
    Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his descendant. Scripture does not say, "and to the descendants," referring to many, but "and to your descendant," referring to one, who is Christ. Gal.3:16

  13. #73
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It's both.
    you just concurred above that Jewishness is BOTH religion and ethnicity. And in response to my statement "Therefore a Jew may follow Judaism or Christianity - but none of these religions negates his Jewish identity!" You responded Yeah I know.

    Being a Christian means one is no longer a Jew is the religious sense as I have said all along.
    Yet despite your agreement, you made a 360 degree turn to assert that *a Jewish Christian is no longer a Jew*. I don't know your neighbourhood but in mine, we have Messianic Jews. So let's say for the sake of argument, you a Jewish Christian as a friend, how will you describe him in terms of nationality/ethnicity without resorting to the generic "he's white or Caucasian"?

    This is your own confusion since I have never strictly associated the word *Jew* to Judaism and the Law.
    Looks like you can't make up your mind on where to stand; you start by agreeing that Jewishness is both a religion and ethnicity. In the next breathe, you doubled back and claimed that a Jewish Christian is no longer a "Jew". When I challenged you above that you restrict the interpretation of Jewishness to Judaism and the Law - you said you don't. You can't have it both ways and must decide one way or the other.

    Hopefully, you see how confusing your ever-changing position is?

  14. #74
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It's both.
    you just concurred above that Jewishness is BOTH religion and ethnicity. And in response to my statement "Therefore a Jew may follow Judaism or Christianity - but none of these religions negates his Jewish identity!" You responded Yeah I know.

    Being a Christian means one is no longer a Jew is the religious sense as I have said all along.
    Yet despite your agreement, you made a 360 degree turn to assert that *a Jewish Christian is no longer a Jew*. I don't know your neighbourhood but in mine, we have Messianic Jews. So let's say for the sake of argument, you a Jewish Christian as a friend, how will you describe him in terms of nationality/ethnicity without resorting to the generic "he's white or Caucasian"?

    This is your own confusion since I have never strictly associated the word *Jew* to Judaism and the Law.
    Looks like you can't make up your mind on where to stand; you start by agreeing that Jewishness is both a religion and ethnicity. In the next breathe, you doubled back and claimed that a Jewish Christian is no longer a "Jew". When I challenged you above that you restrict the interpretation of Jewishness to Judaism and the Law - you said you don't. You can't have it both ways and must decide one way or the other.

    Hopefully, you see how confusing your ever-changing position is?

  15. #75
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    Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    He is talking Jewishness as in the religious sense here not ethnically. He used his knowledge of Judaism to argue with the Jews about Christ being the prophesied Messiah.


    Gill:

    1 Corinthians 9:20
    And unto the Jews I became as a Jew,.... That is, in religion; or with respect to some religious observances peculiar to the Jews

    Barnes:

    I became as a Jew - I complied with their rites, customs, prejudices, as far as I could with a good conscience. I did not needlessly offend them. I did not attack and oppose their views, when there was no danger that my conduct should be mistaken. For a full illustration of Paulís conduct in this respect, and the principles which influenced him, see the notes on Act_16:3; Act_18:18; Act_21:21-27; Act_23:1-6.
    What the eminent Gill and Barnes said is no different from what I said. That Paul identified with their Jewish identity and used his knowledge of their tradition (the Law) to preach Christ to them. Surely this is easily discerned from "he identified himself as a Jew"?

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