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Thread: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

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  1. #1

    Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

    We all know that Jewish messiah is associated with both Jesus and antichrist, but in different ways. Jesus is the true Jewish Messiah that Jews rejected (aka Jews rejected their own Messiah) while antichrist is the false Messiah that Jews would embrace (thus becoming the Jewish Messiah, to their own demise). Then of course you can put more emphasis on one or the other, depending on your political likes or dislikes of Jewish people and so forth.

    But have you ever considered a third possibility? Maybe Jewish Messiah will be some figure that will happen at a totally separate time from fulfillment of Christian prophecies. Lets say, antichrist will come in a year of 2350 and Jesus will return 7 years later, in 2357. This would leave plenty of room for Jewish Messiah to come, say, in 2170 and rule until, say, 2265 when he will die at a really old age. I mean, according to the Jewish prophecies of the Messiah, their Messiah will die of old age -- in sharp contrast to Jesus (who will never die) and to antichrist (who will die because Jesus will kill him from the breadth of His mouth after the 7 year tribulation is over). So this means that Jewish Messiah can come, live, and die, before either antichrist or Jesus comes on the scene. And this possibility doesn't contradict any of the Christian prophecies: after all, Christian prophecies don't say what might or might not happen BEFORE the book of Revelation unfolds, so who is to say Jewish Messiah -- whom Jews believe to be a mere political leader rather than God -- can't come, live, and die in that time period?

    This connects to a different topic: Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Roots movements. Historically, there was a dichotomy: you are either Jewish or you are Christian, you can't be both. A Christian who tried to keep Jewish law was considered a heretic. But Messianics today are challenging this notion: they say yes, you can be both Jewish and Christian. However, there is one glaring exception. While Messianics "take" all of the Jewish practices, they DON"T "take" the Messiah part of it: their Messiah is Jesus. But wait a second. If they challenge the notion that you can't observe two religions at the same time, why don't they also challenge the notion that you can't believe in two Messiahs at the same time? Just like they say they are saved by Christ alone but they still follow Jewish practices for other reasons, they can also say that the Messiah that would bring eternal life is Jesus alone but the other Messiah -- that would come at a different time period -- is still nice, for some other reasons.

    In fact, I have heard Messianic Jews that say that the reason church was historically against Jewish practices is antisemitism. So perhaps its possible to say that the reason Christians are against adding Jewish Messiah is antisemitism as well. But that would be funny, since this statement would apply to Messianics. So it would be like Messianics -- while fighting Christian antisemitism -- unwittingly adapted one of the antisemitic beliefs (namely, opposition to Jewish Messiah). But I guess its possible. For example, Christian antisemites, while resenting jews, unwittingly adapted some of the jewish things (even the word amen is a hebrew phrase). Similarly, messianics, while resenting antisemites, might accidentally adapt some antisemitic beliefs, such as opposition to Jewish Messiah.

    But anyway, everything I said up till now is just a speculation. Of course, it is entirely POSSIBLE that messiah WILL be the antichrist -- just like it is also POSSIBLE that he won't be. Now *IF* Jewish Messiah will be the antichrist, perhaps the theory that I just presented will be popularized and this would be the exact way antichrist will deceive people. What do you think?

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    Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Subriemannian View Post
    We all know that Jewish messiah is associated with both Jesus and antichrist, but in different ways. Jesus is the true Jewish Messiah that Jews rejected (aka Jews rejected their own Messiah) while antichrist is the false Messiah that Jews would embrace (thus becoming the Jewish Messiah, to their own demise). Then of course you can put more emphasis on one or the other, depending on your political likes or dislikes of Jewish people and so forth.
    You said "we all know". Well, I don't know what you are talking about.

    Yes, many Jews - especially in leadership rejected Jesus. But some of those very men were saved by Acts 15. Not all Jewish people rejected Jesus.

    Yes, there will be an Antichrist. You say that Jews will embrace the Antichrist. Revelation tells us that 144,000 Jewish males who are unmarried will be saved and will evangelize during that time and John says in Revelation that an enormous mass of people will be saved.

    And yes, another enormous mass of people will follow the Antichrist - but they will be of many nations. You say it is the Jews.

    You speak of our political likes or dislikes of Jewish people. You do realize that they are people of Jewish descent who read and are member here, do you not?

    I'm not so sure that you are not being anti-Semitic and this is not your first post to do so.

    Can you explain what you mean in just your first paragraph and how it fits what the Bible has to say? You've told us in one thread that you have Asperger's. In understand that. I have a brother with Asperger's. I understand the difficulty in communicating exactly what it is you are trying to say.

    Could you just explain what you are saying about Jewish people "embracing" the Antichrist.

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    Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

    Your post seems very dislodged from truth and it also carries tones of anti-semitism. In fact your whole post is disjointed and lacking any sign of one who has the Spirit of Christ in him.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

  4. #4

    Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    Your post seems very dislodged from truth and it also carries tones of anti-semitism. In fact your whole post is disjointed and lacking any sign of one who has the Spirit of Christ in him.
    As far as I am concerned, we don't know exactly what will happen at the end since book of Revelation is highly symbolic so there is a lot of room for interpretation. So in this post I was just theorizing about one of several other possibilities. Maybe thats why it seemed dislodged to you? But then other things people say about end times are also just theories. You don't say they are dislodged perhaps because you are used to them.

  5. #5

    Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

    Quote Originally Posted by jayne View Post
    You said "we all know". Well, I don't know what you are talking about.

    Yes, many Jews - especially in leadership rejected Jesus. But some of those very men were saved by Acts 15. Not all Jewish people rejected Jesus.

    Yes, there will be an Antichrist. You say that Jews will embrace the Antichrist. Revelation tells us that 144,000 Jewish males who are unmarried will be saved and will evangelize during that time and John says in Revelation that an enormous mass of people will be saved.

    And yes, another enormous mass of people will follow the Antichrist - but they will be of many nations. You say it is the Jews.

    You speak of our political likes or dislikes of Jewish people. You do realize that they are people of Jewish descent who read and are member here, do you not?

    I'm not so sure that you are not being anti-Semitic and this is not your first post to do so.

    Can you explain what you mean in just your first paragraph and how it fits what the Bible has to say? You've told us in one thread that you have Asperger's. In understand that. I have a brother with Asperger's. I understand the difficulty in communicating exactly what it is you are trying to say.

    Could you just explain what you are saying about Jewish people "embracing" the Antichrist.
    It seems to me that you only read the first paragraph (the part that you quoted) and didn't read the rest of what I wrote. If you read the rest of my post, you will find me talking about a theory where Jewish messiah is NOT antichrist. So then how can you say I am antisemitic? During the first paragraph I wasn't even talking about my own theory -- I simply summarized already known theory spoken of by others -- and then in the rest of the post I talked about my own theory that CONTRADICTS that more common theory. Yet you are saying I am antisemitic for supposedly agreeing with the theory I cited in the first paragraph -- and I never said I agreed with it (quite the opposite in fact).

    On a different note -- yes, there is a possibility that the theory cited in the first paragraph is true -- just like there is a possibility its not true. In this particular post I have happened to elaborate on a possibility where its not true (even though in my other posts I might elaborate on the possibility that it is). Thats why its so surprising you called this post (as opposed to others) antisemitic -- so it seems to suggest you didn't read most of it beyond the first paragraph.

    And also I never said "none of the Jews are saved" -- that statement is obviously false due to obvious examples such as Jesus Himself, His apostles, the 144000, and so forth. But the point is that those Jews are considered apostates by the mainstream Jewish community. So when I was talking about "Jews" in this post I was referring to "mainstream Jewish community". I should have spelled it out, but I guess I didn't since I assumed its evident.

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    Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Subriemannian View Post
    In fact, I have heard Messianic Jews that say that the reason church was historically against Jewish practices is antisemitism. So perhaps its possible to say that the reason Christians are against adding Jewish Messiah is antisemitism as well. But that would be funny, since this statement would apply to Messianics. So it would be like Messianics -- while fighting Christian antisemitism -- unwittingly adapted one of the antisemitic beliefs
    Are you criticizing people over something they only said in your imagination??
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  7. #7

    Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Are you criticizing people over something they only said in your imagination??
    How is it my imagination? Look up messianic Judaism and see how they, indeed, say those things.

    And I am not exactly criticizing them either. I am looking over different possibilities and say "within a framework of Possibility A, the Group X would be wrong, but within a framework of Possibility B, the Group Y would be wrong", and since I don't know whether it is A or B, I don't know who is actually wrong.

    Be it as it may, as far as my citing people's BELIEFS, I am referencing the stuff they have in fact said as opposed to the stuff I imagine them saying. Look it up.

  8. #8

    Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Subriemannian View Post
    How is it my imagination? Look up messianic Judaism and see how they, indeed, say those things.

    And I am not exactly criticizing them either. I am looking over different possibilities and say "within a framework of Possibility A, the Group X would be wrong, but within a framework of Possibility B, the Group Y would be wrong", and since I don't know whether it is A or B, I don't know who is actually wrong.

    Be it as it may, as far as my citing people's BELIEFS, I am referencing the stuff they have in fact said as opposed to the stuff I imagine them saying. Look it up.
    Okay I see why you mentioned my imagination: nobody besides me ever said they believe in two Messiahs, so its my imagination. But you see, I made it very clear that they never said it, so I wasn't putting words in anybody's mouths. I was saying "they COULD HAVE said it, but they didn't, maybe they will say it in future".

    On the other hand, the part where I actually claimed others said it was the part where I said how Messianics add Jewish traditions to Christianity and how Christians -- at least in the past -- viewed it as unacceptable. Neither of those two statements are my imagination: they are both true.

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    Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Subriemannian View Post
    Okay I see why you mentioned my imagination: nobody besides me ever said they believe in two Messiahs, so its my imagination. But you see, I made it very clear that they never said it, so I wasn't putting words in anybody's mouths. I was saying "they COULD HAVE said it, but they didn't, maybe they will say it in future".
    If none of your speculation is even grounded in reality, how does it benefit you? The reason your theory here comes across as disjointed is because you aren't giving an interpretation of anything, but are purely guessing about the future. I say lovingly as a fellow Christian, there's no value in this if you're trying to grow in Scripture. End times study isn't about trying to imagine what might happen and then look for clues in the Bible. People have done that for thousands of years and are wrong almost every time.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


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    Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Subriemannian View Post
    We all know that Jewish messiah is associated with both Jesus and antichrist, but in different ways. Jesus is the true Jewish Messiah that Jews rejected (aka Jews rejected their own Messiah) while antichrist is the false Messiah that Jews would embrace (thus becoming the Jewish Messiah, to their own demise). Then of course you can put more emphasis on one or the other, depending on your political likes or dislikes of Jewish people and so forth.
    I'm not really sure that's true, that Jews would embrace Antichrist as their Messiah? Take, for example, Antiochus 4 in ancient Syria. Some of the Jews turned to Hellenism, to pacify Antiochus. Other Jews firmly resisted Hellenism, and persevered in their Orthodox beliefs. We cannot say that the Jews, as a group, embraced Antiochus 4 as a Messiah, of sorts. Nor can I say that Jews, overall, will accept the Antichrist as their Messiah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subriemannian
    But have you ever considered a third possibility? Maybe Jewish Messiah will be some figure that will happen at a totally separate time from fulfillment of Christian prophecies. Lets say, antichrist will come in a year of 2350 and Jesus will return 7 years later, in 2357. This would leave plenty of room for Jewish Messiah to come, say, in 2170 and rule until, say, 2265 when he will die at a really old age. I mean, according to the Jewish prophecies of the Messiah, their Messiah will die of old age -- in sharp contrast to Jesus (who will never die) and to antichrist (who will die because Jesus will kill him from the breadth of His mouth after the 7 year tribulation is over). So this means that Jewish Messiah can come, live, and die, before either antichrist or Jesus comes on the scene. And this possibility doesn't contradict any of the Christian prophecies: after all, Christian prophecies don't say what might or might not happen BEFORE the book of Revelation unfolds, so who is to say Jewish Messiah -- whom Jews believe to be a mere political leader rather than God -- can't come, live, and die in that time period?
    No, Dan 7 clearly portrays the coming of the Son of Man at the coming of God's Kingdom, which is at the defeat of Antichrist. Paul reviews this, making the same conclusion, that *before* the coming of the day of Christ the Antichrist must appear first. Then he will be destroyed *on that day!*

    Quote Originally Posted by Subriemannian
    This connects to a different topic: Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Roots movements. Historically, there was a dichotomy: you are either Jewish or you are Christian, you can't be both. A Christian who tried to keep Jewish law was considered a heretic. But Messianics today are challenging this notion: they say yes, you can be both Jewish and Christian. However, there is one glaring exception. While Messianics "take" all of the Jewish practices, they DON"T "take" the Messiah part of it: their Messiah is Jesus. But wait a second. If they challenge the notion that you can't observe two religions at the same time, why don't they also challenge the notion that you can't believe in two Messiahs at the same time? Just like they say they are saved by Christ alone but they still follow Jewish practices for other reasons, they can also say that the Messiah that would bring eternal life is Jesus alone but the other Messiah -- that would come at a different time period -- is still nice, for some other reasons.
    Yes, sometimes Messianic Jews appear to be contradictory, upholding 2 conflicting religions, and adhering to both Law and Grace. In reality, however, they are claiming that those springing out of Jewish culture can legitimately claim Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. That conflicts with Rabbinic Judaism, but not with ancient Judaism, which spawned Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subriemannian
    In fact, I have heard Messianic Jews that say that the reason church was historically against Jewish practices is antisemitism. So perhaps its possible to say that the reason Christians are against adding Jewish Messiah is antisemitism as well. But that would be funny, since this statement would apply to Messianics. So it would be like Messianics -- while fighting Christian antisemitism -- unwittingly adapted one of the antisemitic beliefs (namely, opposition to Jewish Messiah). But I guess its possible. For example, Christian antisemites, while resenting jews, unwittingly adapted some of the jewish things (even the word amen is a hebrew phrase). Similarly, messianics, while resenting antisemites, might accidentally adapt some antisemitic beliefs, such as opposition to Jewish Messiah.
    I'm not sure what you mean by the "Jewish Messiah?" Jesus is the Jewish Messiah--that is not controversial, nor anti-Semitic for Christians to believe in. Yes, Christians lost patience with Jews on many occasions, because they would not embrace their own Messiah. However, this is not always antiSemtism, but only a lack of spirituality--a capitulation to carnality. It is not anti-Semitic to view Jews as callous and stubborn, with respect to their treatment of Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subriemannian
    But anyway, everything I said up till now is just a speculation. Of course, it is entirely POSSIBLE that messiah WILL be the antichrist -- just like it is also POSSIBLE that he won't be. Now *IF* Jewish Messiah will be the antichrist, perhaps the theory that I just presented will be popularized and this would be the exact way antichrist will deceive people. What do you think?
    The Jewish Messiah is determined by God, and not by Jews. If they claim some future Antiochus 4 is their Messiah, then they will be capitulating to something evil.

  11. #11

    Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not really sure that's true, that Jews would embrace Antichrist as their Messiah? Take, for example, Antiochus 4 in ancient Syria. Some of the Jews turned to Hellenism, to pacify Antiochus. Other Jews firmly resisted Hellenism, and persevered in their Orthodox beliefs. We cannot say that the Jews, as a group, embraced Antiochus 4 as a Messiah, of sorts. Nor can I say that Jews, overall, will accept the Antichrist as their Messiah.
    But in New Testament times Jews went for the worst, after they rejected Jesus. At least the Messiah they are looking for now matches the description of the antichrist.

    But you are right that they might not "end up" accepting antichrist as their Messiah. Just cause they are "awaiting" someone "like" the antichrist, lots of things can happen between now and hten that might acutally prevent them from accepting him, such as

    a) A person other than antichrist coming to the scene to be their Messiah long BEFORE the actual antichrist comes in (the possibility discussed in this post)

    b) The antichrist claiming to be God -- which would cause Jews to reject him for the same exact reason they rejected Jesus (they don't believe their messiah to be God)

    c) Jews turning to Christ en masse via preaching of 144000

    etc

    So I don't know if they will or won't accept the antichrist. I just say it would be "easier" for them to accept the antichrist then it was for them to accept antiochus since in old testament times they were still following God and now they aren't. But what will actually happen is up to speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, Dan 7 clearly portrays the coming of the Son of Man at the coming of God's Kingdom, which is at the defeat of Antichrist. Paul reviews this, making the same conclusion, that *before* the coming of the day of Christ the Antichrist must appear first. Then he will be destroyed *on that day!*
    If you re-read what I wrote in OP, you will see that I have made a distinction between messiah and antichrist, I even put years to spell it out. So, in my story, yes, Jesus comes right after antichrist is destroyed (both happens in 2357 AD) but it happens almost a century after Jewish Messiah is gone, since Jewish Messiah which is completely separate individual from the antichrist is on the scene at 2170 AD --2265 AD. In other words, the fact that I said that Jewish messiah is someone completely separate from both Jewish and the antichrist is what allowed me to say that he would come and go long before either antichrist or Jesus comes.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, sometimes Messianic Jews appear to be contradictory, upholding 2 conflicting religions, and adhering to both Law and Grace. In reality, however, they are claiming that those springing out of Jewish culture can legitimately claim Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. That conflicts with Rabbinic Judaism, but not with ancient Judaism, which spawned Christianity.
    I agree with what you just said. But, historically, Christians didn't hold that view. From pure historical perspective, the fact that Christians accept Messianics now and didn't accept them for the first 19 centuries is a huge shift. So, from the point of view of secular sociology, if they made one huge shift, why can't they make another huge shift -- especially if that other huge shift will be in the same direction? The first shift was when they began to accept Messianics as a fellow Christians, and the second shift will be when they will come to the point of view that one can follow Jewish Messiah and Christian Messiah -- as two separate individuals -- at the same time. I know the latter appears unthinkable; but accepting Messianics as fellow believers appeared unthinkable just a century ago, yet this happened. So who is to say that what I am suggesting now about following two messiahs -- as unthinkable as it seems -- won't happen a century later?

    Note that I am not saying that those two things are equally reasonable or equally unreasonable. I am just looking at it from perspective of secular sociology. And if you ask "why do I look at secular sociology as a believer", well, here is why. As a believer I believe God's prophecies will be fulfilled. But, as someone who watches the news, I also know that secular sociology takes place as well. God might use secular sociology phenomena as a "tool" to bring his prophecies to fulfillment. So there is no need to deny one or the other, one can look at both to get a fuller view.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by the "Jewish Messiah?"
    By Jewish Messiah I mean the person whom "Mainstream Jewish Community" (as of today) is awaiting for. When you hear the Jewish people (who rejected Jesus) talking about Messiah, in God's eyes does it translate to

    1) Jesus -- whom they don't acknowledge, yet they are talking about His coming without realizing it

    2) Antichrist. Again, they don't believe in antichrist (since they don't believe in Christian prophecies) yet they are awaiting him without realizing it

    3) Some third individual that would come long BEFORE either antichrist or Jesus does. Thats the possibility I am elaborating in this post

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Jesus is the Jewish Messiah--that is not controversial, nor anti-Semitic for Christians to believe in. Yes, Christians lost patience with Jews on many occasions, because they would not embrace their own Messiah. However, this is not always antiSemtism, but only a lack of spirituality--a capitulation to carnality. It is not anti-Semitic to view Jews as callous and stubborn, with respect to their treatment of Christianity.
    Well, the word "antisemitic" doesn't mean "UNREASONABLE opposition to Jews", it means "ANY opposition to Jews". I guess you might ask "wait a second, so are you saying that Jews should never be criticized no matter what they do?" No I am not saying it. The only way you would HEAR me say that is if you will make an ASSUMPTION that "antisemitism is to be avoided by all costs". But why make that assumption? Being anti-Obama, anti-Trump, etc. isn't automatically wrong. So why should being anti-semitic be any worse? Of course, if in the middle of political discussion someone were to say "oh, you are just being anti-Obama" or "oh, you are just being anti-Trump" then you are probably deflecting a discussion and avoid addressing the issue that is being discussed. But, at the same time, you don't feel compelled to say "I am not anti-Obama" or "I am not anti-Trump" either. You have no problem acknowledging that you are -- you just won't let the other person to deflect the discussion in this way. So why should the term anti-semitic be viewed any differently? I guess its because Hitler was anti-semitic and look at what he did. But Hitler is extreme case. If someone is anti-Obama or anti-Trump, they aren't automatically try to kill either Obama or Trump -- most likely they would be opposed to someone killing them. So similarly if you are anti-semitic, most likely you wouldn't want to kill Jews. Its also possible to be anti-Obama or anti-Trump in one context and be pro-Obama and pro-Trump in a different context. Similarly, one can be anti-semitic in one context and pro-Semitic in a different context. So then the word antisemitism won't look like just a blind opposition and won't be so bad. Incidentally, I read online, that this word was coined by someone who himself was antisemitic, so it wasn't viewed as bad in its original use, but it became bad later.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The Jewish Messiah is determined by God, and not by Jews. If they claim some future Antiochus 4 is their Messiah, then they will be capitulating to something evil.
    By Jewish Messiah I mean whom today's jewish community is referring to in their prayers. And the answer to this question is far from obvious, hence those speculations.

  12. #12

    Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Subriemannian View Post
    But in New Testament times Jews went for the worst, after they rejected Jesus. At least the Messiah they are looking for now matches the description of the antichrist.

    But you are right that they might not "end up" accepting antichrist as their Messiah. Just cause they are "awaiting" someone "like" the antichrist, lots of things can happen between now and hten that might acutally prevent them from accepting him, such as

    a) A person other than antichrist coming to the scene to be their Messiah long BEFORE the actual antichrist comes in (the possibility discussed in this post)

    b) The antichrist claiming to be God -- which would cause Jews to reject him for the same exact reason they rejected Jesus (they don't believe their messiah to be God)

    c) Jews turning to Christ en masse via preaching of 144000

    etc

    So I don't know if they will or won't accept the antichrist. I just say it would be "easier" for them to accept the antichrist then it was for them to accept antiochus since in old testament times they were still following God and now they aren't. But what will actually happen is up to speculation.
    Something to consider, the ones who are deceived are those, "who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved".

    Another thing to consider is, it is God that causes their deception. "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth."


    2 Thessalonians 2
    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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    Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Another thing to consider is, it is God that causes their deception.
    No, he didn't cause the deception. He merely protects it.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  14. #14

    Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No, he didn't cause the deception. He merely protects it.
    Paul says, "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie".

    2 Thessalonians 2
    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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    Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Paul says, "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie".

    2 Thessalonians 2
    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    You are ignoring that they already rejected the truth before God blinded them.

    "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

    "who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness"

    God simply blinded people who already rejected the truth so God kept them in their disbelieving condition. When God lifts the blindness, these people will still reject the truth as they did before being blinded.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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