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Thread: Are The Laws Done Away With?

  1. #16
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    I don't know what's in the video, but I've heard plenty on this subject. Let me just say, up front, that there is a difference between saying the laws are the same in OT and NT and saying that Law and Grace are the same as *systems.* The OT Law was a system with an expiration date, namely at the crucifixion of Christ. But the laws given in the OT Law contained some of the same laws that we would practice under the NT when following the example of Christ.

    When we follow the example of Christ we do not try to *be Christ,* achieving deity and sinless perfection. Rather, we try to draw from him attributes that enable us to be "little Christs," namely disciples who try to emulate his love and compassion. We try to achieve holiness without denying our inherent sinfulness.

    Under the New Covenant we don't follow temple laws that were meant to express what Christ would do in the future. These laws temporarily governed Israel before Christ came and fulfilled *all* temple law. So we don't need to follow temple law anymore.

    However, when it comes to moral law we would be foolish to deny that there is any law in following the example of Christ. We receive his spirit, and try to live by it, giving up our carnal, independent ways. We follow God's laws by a new system of mercy, which we call Grace. This means that our objective of inheritance in God's Kingdom has already been achieved, even though we live in a preliminary state of sin and unfulfillment.

    The laws we follow are meant to emit Christ's own love, which exists within us. But we do not expect to be without sin. We do not follow laws to achieve our inheritance, but rather, follow laws to demonstrate that we have chosen this inheritance, which is Christ, the hope of glory.

    To go back to OT laws, therefore, would be to foolishly place ourselves back in the place before we were redeemed by Christ. And we would be pursuing something we already have.

  2. #17
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Just for understanding, a "Christian" who has faith in God through Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit... if such a Christian believes the "Law" is NOT done away with, WHAT is done by a Christian in following the Law? The Law is for our "education/knowledge" concerning sin but "following" the Law... that seems to be the heart of the matter.

    So when one says the Law is NOT done away with, does this mean that the Law is continued to be followed for the overcoming of sin, or is the Law ONLY a guide to understand sin?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  3. #18
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    In its institution of the here and now purpose of the law, was the right to dwell in the land (given to Abraham as an eternal inheritance). The eternal purpose found in the right to eternal/ everlasting life, is found in the principle of faith from the foundation of the beginning of God's creation:

    Verse list:
    Tit 1:1-2 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    The inheritance that we, as the partakers of faith, in the here and now, is quite clear that it does not involve the land promised to Abraham [yet!]. But when Jesus returns, (bringing the kingdom with him, judging the quick and the dead), the institutional purpose of the law will return. This is found in the institution of the new covenant when God shall write his laws in the hearts of the (United) house of Israel and Judah. The church is built upon the foundation of the apostles & prophets, Eph 2:20. But the kingdom of God is built upon RIGHTEOUSNESS, peace and joy.

    Luk 22:29-30 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Jer 31:31-36 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ORDINANCES depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a NATION before me for ever.

    What are the "ordinances" of the sun and moon? According to Gen 1:14, they are for signs and seasons. The word for seasons is the same word as the word used to describe the feasts/moedim of the Lord. As long as God has not cast off the nation of Israel[godly or not, they still exist] , the ordinances of God will not depart.

    Be Blessed,
    The PuP

  4. #19
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Just for understanding, a "Christian" who has faith in God through Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit... if such a Christian believes the "Law" is NOT done away with, WHAT is done by a Christian in following the Law? The Law is for our "education/knowledge" concerning sin but "following" the Law... that seems to be the heart of the matter.

    So when one says the Law is NOT done away with, does this mean that the Law is continued to be followed for the overcoming of sin, or is the Law ONLY a guide to understand sin?
    BTW, here is a scripture in relation to my original post:

    Romans 10: Brethren, my heartís desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of Godís righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    If one "follows" the Law, is the purpose to "be" righteous?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  5. #20
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Just for understanding, a "Christian" who has faith in God through Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit... if such a Christian believes the "Law" is NOT done away with, WHAT is done by a Christian in following the Law? The Law is for our "education/knowledge" concerning sin but "following" the Law... that seems to be the heart of the matter.

    So when one says the Law is NOT done away with, does this mean that the Law is continued to be followed for the overcoming of sin, or is the Law ONLY a guide to understand sin?
    The Law is done away in the sense that it has fulfilled its purpose which is to serve as a guide or pointer to Christ (Gal 3:24). Since Christ is revealed, there's no more requirement to "follow the law". For clarity, I think it's important that people elaborate on what they mean by "following the law" as I suspect that a Christian's idea of the following the law might be different from that of a Jew? That said, the moral aspects of the law like, thou shall not commit murder, bear false witness, etc. are forever enduring...

  6. #21
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kahtar View Post
    Can you provide some specifics, or at least verse references for these laws not considered bondage? And, besides the 10 (or is it 9?) commandments, what is the 'new law' that you are referring to, or where can I find it?
    Looks like ewq1938 was referring to the law of Christ (Gal 6:2) which to my understanding is to adhere to the Gospel of salvation through Jesus.

  7. #22
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kahtar View Post
    What are those new covenant laws, exactly?
    Isn't it the Gospel...

  8. #23
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Are you a Jew or a Gentile?

    Who were the Mosaic laws applicable to?
    Jews or Gentiles?
    Those are great questions...

    Do we have to figure out if James was talking to Jews or Gentiles?
    when he wrote:
    "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all" (James 2:10)

  9. #24
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    Those are great questions...

    Do we have to figure out if James was talking to Jews or Gentiles?
    when he wrote:
    "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all" (James 2:10)
    He was talking to Jews that were Christians:

    Jas_1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

    Jas_2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    Those are great questions...

    Do we have to figure out if James was talking to Jews or Gentiles?
    when he wrote:
    "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all" (James 2:10)
    He was talking to Jews that were Christians:

    Jas_1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

    Jas_2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  10. #25
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    BTW, here is a scripture in relation to my original post:

    Romans 10: Brethren, my heartís desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of Godís righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    If one "follows" the Law, is the purpose to "be" righteous?
    Once again, this is a semantical issue. We do not follow "the Law" as a system. But we do indeed follow the Law of God generically, which is purely the word of God to our hearts. This "Law" calls for us to follow principles of righteousness and justice, as existed under the Law of Moses. We would be derelect not to follow laws like "Do not commit adultery," or "Do not murder." We certainly do follow "law" in this generic sense.

    But we do *not* follow the Law of Moses, which is the Law of God in the form of an antiquated system. To go back to that Law, regardless of its inclusion of good laws, would require us to all be Jews under OT circumstances, awaiting temple redemption through Christ. We've already been redeemed, and can now access Christ and his righteousness in order to demonstrate obedience to the Law of God.

    Israel had access to the word of God and to righteousness under the Law of Moses. But the promise of eternal inheritance was not yet fulfilled, which is why they had temple law.

    But inasmuch as Christ has already fulfilled temple law, and our redemption, we do not need to follow temple law anymore. Thus, we are *not* under the Law of Moses. We are not under the Law of God in the form of this *antiquated system.*

    We are under the Law of God in the form of Christ and his righteousness. We follow him as the expression of God's word to our hearts. If this law conforms to who Christ is, and to what he wants us to do for him, then yes--we are under God's Law in the form of a brand new system.

  11. #26
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    There is God's law in the NT but we are not "under" the law. There was grace in the OT but they were not "under" grace. I could elaborate further, but this thread has too much potential to go silly, so I'll leave it at that.
    Look at the silliness of logic.
    The Sabbath for example: was made for man.
    Man forgot it Ö so God made the Jews the keepers of the law
    To ensure that they would remind man that God gave man 10 commandments.

    Then Jesus came along claiming to be the LORD of the Sabbath.
    The Jews rejected Jesus and since He was the LORD of the Sabbath,
    Jesus freed the Jews from keeping the Sabbath since they did not accept Him as LORD

    Then came the Christians that accept Jesus as LORD of their lives
    Some of them reason that the LORD of the Sabbath is their LORD
    apart from honoring the day that He is LORD of

    But to extract themselves from the difficulty of
    accepting Jesus as LORD while rejecting the LORD's Day
    they make the Lord's Day a different day
    And go through spiritual contortions to
    enable themselves to call Jesus LORD while disregarding the Sabbath of the LORD.

    It all that is as it appears, there is danger ahead:

    Luke 6:46 "And why call ye Me [Jesus], Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

  12. #27

    Cool Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    Look at the silliness of logic.
    The Sabbath for example: was made for man.
    Man forgot it Ö so God made the Jews the keepers of the law
    To ensure that they would remind man that God gave man 10 commandments.

    Then Jesus came along claiming to be the LORD of the Sabbath.
    The Jews rejected Jesus and since He was the LORD of the Sabbath,
    Jesus freed the Jews from keeping the Sabbath since they did not accept Him as LORD

    Then came the Christians that accept Jesus as LORD of their lives
    Some of them reason that the LORD of the Sabbath is their LORD
    apart from honoring the day that He is LORD of

    But to extract themselves from the difficulty of
    accepting Jesus as LORD while rejecting the LORD's Day
    they make the Lord's Day a different day
    And go through spiritual contortions to
    enable themselves to call Jesus LORD while disregarding the Sabbath of the LORD.

    It all that is as it appears, there is danger ahead:

    Luke 6:46 "And why call ye Me [Jesus], Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
    Danger, indeed! A couple verses are in order:

    Rom. 7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."

    Rom. 7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." Notice: We still serve.

    Rom. 7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." If it is good, then I am doing it!
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  13. #28
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Danger, indeed! A couple verses are in order:

    Rom. 7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."

    Rom. 7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." Notice: We still serve.

    Rom. 7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." If it is good, then I am doing it!
    Of course we are delivered from the law
    "The wages of sin is death" when we obey the law, we are not subject to its penalty: Bible 101.
    The only time we are subject to the penalty of death is when we choose to break the law.

    But some have given the impression that we are free to break the law and be guiltless.

    Do you suppose that Paul is teaching here that it is ok to break any of the Ten Commandments?

  14. #29

    Cool Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    Of course we are delivered from the law
    "The wages of sin is death" when we obey the law, we are not subject to its penalty: Bible 101.
    The only time we are subject to the penalty of death is when we choose to break the law.

    But some have given the impression that we are free to break the law and be guiltless.

    Do you suppose that Paul is teaching here that it is ok to break any of the Ten Commandments?
    No, Paul kept the Ten Commandments just like our Lord did. The preincarnate Jesus Christ was the actual lawgiver (see Acts 7:27,38). And He doesn't change. Heb. 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever."
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  15. #30
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    Look at the silliness of logic.
    The Sabbath for example: was made for man.
    Man forgot it … so God made the Jews the keepers of the law
    To ensure that they would remind man that God gave man 10 commandments.

    Then Jesus came along claiming to be the LORD of the Sabbath.
    The Jews rejected Jesus and since He was the LORD of the Sabbath,
    Jesus freed the Jews from keeping the Sabbath since they did not accept Him as LORD

    Then came the Christians that accept Jesus as LORD of their lives
    Some of them reason that the LORD of the Sabbath is their LORD
    apart from honoring the day that He is LORD of

    But to extract themselves from the difficulty of
    accepting Jesus as LORD while rejecting the LORD's Day
    they make the Lord's Day a different day
    And go through spiritual contortions to
    enable themselves to call Jesus LORD while disregarding the Sabbath of the LORD.

    It all that is as it appears, there is danger ahead:

    Luke 6:46 "And why call ye Me [Jesus], Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
    I suppose all that was to say that you keep the Sabbath and we are breaking the law and are in danger of God's judgment for not doing so?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    Look at the silliness of logic.
    The Sabbath for example: was made for man.
    Man forgot it Ö so God made the Jews the keepers of the law
    To ensure that they would remind man that God gave man 10 commandments.

    Then Jesus came along claiming to be the LORD of the Sabbath.
    The Jews rejected Jesus and since He was the LORD of the Sabbath,
    Jesus freed the Jews from keeping the Sabbath since they did not accept Him as LORD

    Then came the Christians that accept Jesus as LORD of their lives
    Some of them reason that the LORD of the Sabbath is their LORD
    apart from honoring the day that He is LORD of

    But to extract themselves from the difficulty of
    accepting Jesus as LORD while rejecting the LORD's Day
    they make the Lord's Day a different day
    And go through spiritual contortions to
    enable themselves to call Jesus LORD while disregarding the Sabbath of the LORD.

    It all that is as it appears, there is danger ahead:

    Luke 6:46 "And why call ye Me [Jesus], Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
    I suppose all that was to say that you keep the Sabbath and we are breaking the law and are in danger of God's judgment for not doing so?
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

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