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Thread: Are The Laws Done Away With?

  1. #31

    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    I am new here and have a question if I may, explain the law in relation to sin and atonement and in relation to Moses’ law and the Commandments of God please?

  2. #32
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    1Jn 3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    The law defines what sins are, as in 'You shall not murder', etc.

    But sin is not limited to physical action. Sin begins in the heart. As Jesus said, if you lust after a woman in your heart, you have already committed adultery. Sin is a heart issue.
    Christ died on the cross to pay for all of our sins, that payment being death, so now we are free from the curse of death. Yet, we are not free to sin.

    Moses law, according to Jewish reckoning, consists of 613 commands. Of those, some pertained only to priests (to try to obey those would actually have been violating them unless you were a priest), some pertained
    only to judges, some only to children, some only to women, some only to men.

    Out of those 613, if you are a regular male person (ie not a priest or a judge or a woman, etc) only about 250 would apply to you. If you were to actually study the law you would find that those laws are all carried forward into the New Covenant. Same laws, applied differently. In Moses time they were written on stone, and the people were commanded to apply them to their heart. That did not work, and still doesn't.

    In the New Covenant, those same laws (ie the laws of God) are written upon our hearts. That does not mean the Holy Spirit takes a pen and writes laws on the muscle tissue of our heart. It means that the Holy Spirit gives us the desire to obey, as in loving your neighbor instead of hating him, giving to him instead of robbing him, etc. Loving your neighbor is the fulfilling (doing) the law.

    Doing the law cannot save us. It never could. Only trusting in Christ, by faith, can provide us salvation. But when we are saved, the Holy Spirit urges us to obey Him, to love our neighbor and our God.

  3. #33
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    I suppose all that was to say that you keep the Sabbath and we are breaking the law and are in danger of God's judgment for not doing so?
    "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1John 3:4

    Jesus said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments."John 14:15

    If you do not love Him don't bother.

    "Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7

  4. #34
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sammy33 View Post
    I am new here and have a question if I may, explain the law in relation to sin and atonement and in relation to Moses’ law and the Commandments of God please?
    It's a good question because there's lots of confusion about the difference between OT Law and NT Law. In the OT the Law of Moses was the only word of God for a godly nation. Israel was the only godly nation on earth.

    And so, the Law of Moses was God's word for a nation, and made clear that the nation had been banned from paradise, and relegated to a sin nature, just as Adam and Eve had, after they transgressed against God's command.

    There was, in other words, no redemption for Israel, in the long run, because even though the Law of Moses provided them a temporary reprieve with God, there was absolutely no basis for final redemption in temple law. All hope was placed in a coming Messiah, who would himself provide final redemption, despite the Law of Moses.

    Thus, temple law was anticipatory of God's final redemption, and provided a temporary basis for relationship with God. It temporarily forgave sins, but did not deal with the problem of the sin nature, keeping man from eternal life.

    Clearly, the Law of Moses was given to Israel only for temporary use, to keep them as a godly nation until Christ could come and provide final atonement. To return to the Law, therefore, is pure futility, and would return men and nations back to a time when they had not yet received final atonement.

    I would have to add that the Law of God still remains in effect for men--only not the Law of Moses specifically. That Law, as a system, has been fulfilled, and has expired. The Law of God today is administered through Christ, as we follow the pattern of his life and as we imbibe his spirit into our spirits, through the gospel he has given to us.

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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Before starting. I do not know how best to contact moderators (I sent a message but never needing them before I don't know if I did it right), but they need to block several porn messages that were recently posted.

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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It's a good question because there's lots of confusion about the difference between OT Law and NT Law. In the OT the Law of Moses was the only word of God for a godly nation. Israel was the only godly nation on earth.
    This is going to be interesting. My Bible says that the God of the OT is the same God in the NT. "I change not"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    And so, the Law of Moses was God's word for a nation, and made clear that the nation had been banned from paradise, and relegated to a sin nature, just as Adam and Eve had, after they transgressed against God's command.
    Didn't Jesus say the law was made for man? So He didn't mean man and woman, but He meant a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    There was, in other words, no redemption for Israel, in the long run, because even though the Law of Moses provided them a temporary reprieve with God, there was absolutely no basis for final redemption in temple law. All hope was placed in a coming Messiah, who would himself provide final redemption, despite the Law of Moses.
    How did the law provide Israel "temporary reprieve with God" They didn't even keep it the 40 days that Moses was on the Mount. After saying "all that You say we will do" Aaron built the golden calf. The words spoken from the mountain had quickly lost their meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Thus, temple law was anticipatory of God's final redemption, and provided a temporary basis for relationship with God. It temporarily forgave sins, but did not deal with the problem of the sin nature, keeping man from eternal life.
    You seem to be saying that God saves people in the OT differently than He saves us in NT times?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Clearly, the Law of Moses was given to Israel only for temporary use, to keep them as a godly nation until Christ could come and provide final atonement. To return to the Law, therefore, is pure futility, and would return men and nations back to a time when they had not yet received final atonement.
    Temporary use? When Jesus said that he was LORD of the Sabbath, that was "temporary"?
    There is no sin without the law saying what sin is. Keeping the law will not save anyone, but breaking it will kill us: "The wages of sin is death."
    Tradition is alive and well in the clarification that you so kindly shared. I'm not buying it. Thanks just the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I would have to add that the Law of God still remains in effect for men--only not the Law of Moses specifically. That Law, as a system, has been fulfilled, and has expired. The Law of God today is administered through Christ, as we follow the pattern of his life and as we imbibe his spirit into our spirits, through the gospel he has given to us.
    Name one of the "temporary" Ten Commandments that God wrote on tables of stone that Jesus did not keep? The Law of Moses regarding the Sabbath is not applicable to the Jews any more, because Jesus said He was LORD of the Sabbath and the Jews rejected Him. The only people obligated to keep Christ's Sabbath are the Christians who claim to call Him LORD. unless they want to call Him LORD and not do those things that He commands.

    That is pretty much what the Jews did in Christ's Day. They claimed to be Abraham's seed but they did not do the works of Abraham. Christians can do the same thing (claim to be followers of Christ) if they want to, but going down the same road won't lead anyone to a different destination.

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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Clearly, the Law of Moses was given to Israel only for temporary use, to keep them as a godly nation until Christ could come and provide final atonement. To return to the Law, therefore, is pure futility, and would return men and nations back to a time when they had not yet received final atonement.

    I would have to add that the Law of God still remains in effect for men--only not the Law of Moses specifically. That Law, as a system, has been fulfilled, and has expired. The Law of God today is administered through Christ, as we follow the pattern of his life and as we imbibe his spirit into our spirits, through the gospel he has given to us.
    I would just point out that the temple laws, that is, the laws relating to sacrifice, were temporary, and merely substitutionary for the true sacrifice, Christ.
    All the sacrifices pointed to Christ, from the innocent lambs sacrificed to clothe Adam and Eve clear up to the hour Christ died on the cross.
    To go back to trusting in the sacrificed animals to cleanse away sin would be futile and to deny Christ.
    As the writer of Hebrews pointed out, there was a necessary change (not elimination) of the temple laws.
    There is still a temple by the way, that is you and me. And still a priesthood, also you and me. All those laws pertaining to both are written for our example, to learn from...…..
    I would also point out that there is no difference between the rest of God's law in the OT and the NT.
    Loving God and neighbor remains the same in both testaments, in both covenants.
    The difference, beyond the changes in temple law, is that the very same law of God is now written on our hearts, and that we do not obey it to gain salvation, but rather to express the love in our hearts that the Holy Spirit has put there.
    I would advise anyone to actually study the law.
    I'm not saying return to trusting in works for salvation.
    But, with Paul, I am saying that we should study to show ourselves approved.
    If you are going to teach or discuss the law of either or both covenants, you should gain a good understanding of both.

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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    This is going to be interesting. My Bible says that the God of the OT is the same God in the NT. "I change not"
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    Didn't Jesus say the law was made for man? So He didn't mean man and woman, but He meant a nation?
    Not a contradiction. God made the Law of Moses to serve Israel. It kept them in covenant with Himself, because they had to choose to live beyond the impulses of the sin nature. That's what the Law did. It offered God's word to the human heart as the antidote to the impulse in man to disobey God's word.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    How did the law provide Israel "temporary reprieve with God" They didn't even keep it the 40 days that Moses was on the Mount. After saying "all that You say we will do" Aaron built the golden calf. The words spoken from the mountain had quickly lost their meaning.
    An entire nation is a little more "unwieldy" than an individual. As an individual we sometimes rebel against God's word, and later repent. It doesn't mean we stopped being a Christian.

    But a nation, once it has built up steam in the wrong direction, is hard to stop. They steam-rolled past God's word, and suffered nation-wide consequences. But it never meant they fell out of God's covenant--not until the nation completely apostacized.

    Some of the people clearly apostacized, and died as a result. The failure of some does not mean the failure of the whole. Israel has always had a faithful remnant to maintain hold of God's promise to Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    You seem to be saying that God saves people in the OT differently than He saves us in NT times?
    God didn't "save" people in the OT--He preserved them until they could become saved. People only got "saved" under NT conditions. Salvation, in the OT, consisted of things like national deliverance from foreign oppression. It was a temporary form of deliverance until Christ won for us final redemption.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    Temporary use? When Jesus said that he was LORD of the Sabbath, that was "temporary"?
    God's lordship is not temporary. The Sabbath was.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    There is no sin without the law saying what sin is.
    That's false. There are many sins outside of their being spelled out in the Law of Moses. For instance, if God tells you to give 10.00 to a brother in need, and you don't do it, that's a sin. But it was never spelled out in the Law of Moses. Nor was the Law of Moses ever for you. It was only for Hebrews in OT times.

    God's Law, in the generic sense, is always active, however. And it does spell out our sins. Every time God convicts us of how we should act, refraining to act accordingly constitutes a sin. This is not to be confused with the Law of Moses, which applied in a pre-Christian context.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    Keeping the law will not save anyone, but breaking it will kill us: "The wages of sin is death."
    Tradition is alive and well in the clarification that you so kindly shared. I'm not buying it. Thanks just the same.
    Nothing I say is for sale. It's just food for thought. You may "spit it up" as you please. Just make sure that it's not partly inspired by God. Then you'll lose its value.

    The Law of Moses kept man confined to the sentence of Eden, that "in the day you eat, you shall die." All of the reforms of the OT times could not bring eternal life to Israel. They were condemned by the slightest sin. In the day you "sin," you shall die.

    And so, Israel lived under the Law, still condemned to death, and yet had a continuing relationship with God. This gave them hope that ultimate redemption would come, rewarding them for all of the obedience they had practiced.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    Name one of the "temporary" Ten Commandments that God wrote on tables of stone that Jesus did not keep?
    The Law of Moses was made for sinful men, specifically for sinful Israel. Jesus was not a sinner, and had no need to have a covenant relationship with God by law. He was inherently deity. He was in constant relationship with God by nature!

    As a man we might say that Jesus "kept the laws of Moses" as it would apply to a sinless man. Jesus did everything that non-sinful man should have to do, which did not require a single cleansing ritual. As a sinless man, Jesus had no need to keep temple rituals that spoke of a separation between God and sinful men. Jesus was already in constant communication with God, his Father.

    Jesus had no need to offer sacrifices for his sins. He had none. He had no need to discriminate between foods. These foods were pictorial for sinful Israel, and not for a sinless man.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    The Law of Moses regarding the Sabbath is not applicable to the Jews any more, because Jesus said He was LORD of the Sabbath and the Jews rejected Him. The only people obligated to keep Christ's Sabbath are the Christians who claim to call Him LORD. unless they want to call Him LORD and not do those things that He commands.
    I don't know what you mean by "Christ's Sabbath?" There is no longer any Sabbath at all, as indicate by Paul. Since Jesus needed no laws to validate his righteousness, we enter life through him, and not through a set of laws that apply to sin-infected men.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    That is pretty much what the Jews did in Christ's Day. They claimed to be Abraham's seed but they did not do the works of Abraham. Christians can do the same thing (claim to be followers of Christ) if they want to, but going down the same road won't lead anyone to a different destination.
    I have no idea what kind of "law" you're promoting here?

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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't know what you mean by "Christ's Sabbath?" There is no longer any Sabbath at all, as indicate by Paul. Since Jesus needed no laws to validate his righteousness, we enter life through him, and not through a set of laws that apply to sin-infected men.
    Can you provide how or where you see Paul indicating there is no sabbath please?

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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kahtar View Post
    Can you provide how or where you see Paul indicating there is no sabbath please?
    Romans 14:5-6 is where Paul indicates that putting importance on the Sabbath, is not to be done. Rather any day actually can be a "day of worship." Take pastors/elders or any church leadership for that matter, the "Sabbath" is a day of worship and rest, NO work. Thus why many pastors and church leadership take their "Sabbath" on a Monday or sometime during the week, not even considering Sunday to be "their" day, to be with God on a personal level of relationship. Sunday to any "Christian" pastor is a day to serve and work and later in the week, is their day of relationship and alone time with God. However, none I know who do this refer to Sunday or any day, as the Sabbath.

    Another scripture he writes concerning whether or not to hold the Sabbath over any other day, is not proper in the New Covenant is, Colossians 2:16-17. Pretty much in all the letters Paul wrote and emphasized what was and what was not sin... not keeping the Sabbath is not under, doing sin. Truth be told in reading the Gospel's, the #1 Sabbath breaker was Jesus as He literally "broke" Sabbath tradition/religious standards as documented.

    Some say that in reading and studying Acts 15, there is no emphasis given to the Sabbath as "the" day. I believe it was pretty common by that time, the day of assembly for Christians was done not on the Sabbath, the day that the Jews held assembly according to Judaism. If Jesus was still on the earth at that time, I'm sure He'd still be aggravating many Judaizers then, AND today as I can only assume He DON'T change and thus, would DO actions counter to tradition/religion of Judaism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kahtar View Post
    Can you provide how or where you see Paul indicating there is no sabbath please?
    Romans 14:5-6 is where Paul indicates that putting importance on the Sabbath, is not to be done. Rather any day actually can be a "day of worship." Take pastors/elders or any church leadership for that matter, the "Sabbath" is a day of worship and rest, NO work. Thus why many pastors and church leadership take their "Sabbath" on a Monday or sometime during the week, not even considering Sunday to be "their" day, to be with God on a personal level of relationship. Sunday to any "Christian" pastor is a day to serve and work and later in the week, is their day of relationship and alone time with God. However, none I know who do this refer to Sunday or any day, as the Sabbath.

    Another scripture he writes concerning whether or not to hold the Sabbath over any other day, is not proper in the New Covenant is, Colossians 2:16-17. Pretty much in all the letters Paul wrote and emphasized what was and what was not sin... not keeping the Sabbath is not under, doing sin. Truth be told in reading the Gospel's, the #1 Sabbath breaker was Jesus as He literally "broke" Sabbath tradition/religious standards as documented.

    Some say that in reading and studying Acts 15, there is no emphasis given to the Sabbath as "the" day. I believe it was pretty common by that time, the day of assembly for Christians was done not on the Sabbath, the day that the Jews held assembly according to Judaism. If Jesus was still on the earth at that time, I'm sure He'd still be aggravating many Judaizers then, AND today as I can only assume He DON'T change and thus, would DO actions counter to tradition/religion of Judaism
    Slug1--out

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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Not a contradiction. God made the Law of Moses to serve Israel. It kept them in covenant with Himself, because they had to choose to live beyond the impulses of the sin nature. That's what the Law did. It offered God's word to the human heart as the antidote to the impulse in man to disobey God's word.
    Spiritual gymnastics. But that is what a lot of Bible "teachers" teach these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    An entire nation is a little more "unwieldy" than an individual. As an individual we sometimes rebel against God's word, and later repent. It doesn't mean we stopped being a Christian.

    But a nation, once it has built up steam in the wrong direction, is hard to stop. They steam-rolled past God's word, and suffered nation-wide consequences. But it never meant they fell out of God's covenant--not until the nation completely apostacized.

    Some of the people clearly apostacized, and died as a result. The failure of some does not mean the failure of the whole. Israel has always had a faithful remnant to maintain hold of God's promise to Israel.
    You need to review the Bible account of the golden calf: "Now therefore let Me alone, that My wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation" Exodus 32:10.

    God was ready to wipe out the entire Jewish nation and replace it with Moses' decedents. Hardly "some people" It was complete apostasy.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    God didn't "save" people in the OT--He preserved them until they could become saved. People only got "saved" under NT conditions. Salvation, in the OT, consisted of things like national deliverance from foreign oppression. It was a temporary form of deliverance until Christ won for us final redemption.
    more nonsense

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    God's lordship is not temporary. The Sabbath was.
    The one commandment out of the 10 that God says REMEMBER is the one that you call temporary. The Day that Jesus claimed Lordship over is the one day that you want to trample so that you can put another in its place. The God that never changes "I change not" personally writes it in STONE and you call it Temporary"?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    There are many sins outside of their being spelled out in the Law of Moses. For instance, if God tells you to give 10.00 to a brother in need, and you don't do it, that's a sin. But it was never spelled out in the Law of Moses. Nor was the Law of Moses ever for you. It was only for Hebrews in OT times.
    True there are the sins of omission and commission. But since God spells out 10 specific do's and don'ts it is even more sinful to claim that they are invalid and ignore the very things that are specifically mentioned. You may plead that you did not know your brother needed 10,00 but you have no defense when you willingly violate one of the 10 commandments and teach others to do it with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    God's Law, in the generic sense, is always active, however. And it does spell out our sins. Every time God convicts us of how we should act, refraining to act accordingly constitutes a sin. This is not to be confused with the Law of Moses, which applied in a pre-Christian context.
    Changing the focus from know sin to a vague nebulas of the unknown? That might confuse people who are not grounded in the Scriptures, but it won't work when you stand before your Maker and He discerns a rebellious heart that was not subject to the law of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Nothing I say is for sale. It's just food for thought. You may "spit it up" as you please. Just make sure that it's not partly inspired by God. Then you'll lose its value.
    you have sold yourself a bill of goods that is in direct rebellion against the LAW of God. It is not worthy of being called food for thought. everyone following this thread should Run away from it as quickly as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The Law of Moses kept man confined to the sentence of Eden, that "in the day you eat, you shall die." All of the reforms of the OT times could not bring eternal life to Israel. They were condemned by the slightest sin. In the day you "sin," you shall die.

    And so, Israel lived under the Law, still condemned to death, and yet had a continuing relationship with God. This gave them hope that ultimate redemption would come, rewarding them for all of the obedience they had practiced.
    Sinners live under the condemnation of the law. "The wages of sin is death..."

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The Law of Moses was made for sinful men, specifically for sinful Israel. Jesus was not a sinner, and had no need to have a covenant relationship with God by law. He was inherently deity. He was in constant relationship with God by nature!
    If Jesus had broken the 10 commandment, He would have been a sinner and under the curse of the law. But He kept the law to make up for the fact that we broke the law and continuously do so. Jesus did not die that we could willfully continue to break the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    As a man we might say that Jesus "kept the laws of Moses" as it would apply to a sinless man. Jesus did everything that non-sinful man should have to do, which did not require a single cleansing ritual. As a sinless man, Jesus had no need to keep temple rituals that spoke of a separation between God and sinful men. Jesus was already in constant communication with God, his Father.
    At last some truth!

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Jesus had no need to offer sacrifices for his sins. He had none. He had no need to discriminate between foods. These foods were pictorial for sinful Israel, and not for a sinless man.
    Now comes the error. Jesus did not eat pigs and He commanded the devils to go into them.
    Can you imagine Jesus telling His followers to eat meat that was possessed by demons?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't know what you mean by "Christ's Sabbath?"
    It is no wonder that you missed the point. You wrote a book in response. And when I replied in kind, it makes many words that will have little effect on a heart that is in rebellion against the law of God. But to be polite and answer your question: what you mean by "Christ's Sabbath?"

    Luke 6:5 "And He [Jesus] said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath."

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    There is no longer any Sabbath at all, as indicate by Paul.
    Is Paul a liar?
    Acts 13:42 "And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath."

    After Paul preached to the Jews on Sabbath, he did not preach to the Gentiles on Sunday, but had them come back next Sabbath.
    To twist Paul's words to make him say that the Sabbath is not the Sabbath, is to refuse to see how his keeping the Sabbath contradicts your theories.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Since Jesus needed no laws to validate his righteousness, we enter life through him, and not through a set of laws that apply to sin-infected men.
    Righteousness is RIGHT DOING Sin is transgression of the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I have no idea what kind of "law" you're promoting here?
    That my friend is obvious by your perversion of the Scriptures that you set forth here.
    It is something that only God will be able to set right by the Holy Spirit.
    And if it is a deep seated as it appears, it will be a danger to all who are contaminated by it.

    God have mercy on you.

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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kahtar View Post
    I would just point out that the temple laws, that is, the laws relating to sacrifice, were temporary, and merely substitutionary for the true sacrifice, Christ.
    All the sacrifices pointed to Christ, from the innocent lambs sacrificed to clothe Adam and Eve clear up to the hour Christ died on the cross.
    To go back to trusting in the sacrificed animals to cleanse away sin would be futile and to deny Christ.
    As the writer of Hebrews pointed out, there was a necessary change (not elimination) of the temple laws.
    There is still a temple by the way, that is you and me. And still a priesthood, also you and me. All those laws pertaining to both are written for our example, to learn from...…..
    I would also point out that there is no difference between the rest of God's law in the OT and the NT.
    Loving God and neighbor remains the same in both testaments, in both covenants.
    The difference, beyond the changes in temple law, is that the very same law of God is now written on our hearts, and that we do not obey it to gain salvation, but rather to express the love in our hearts that the Holy Spirit has put there.
    I would advise anyone to actually study the law.
    I'm not saying return to trusting in works for salvation.
    But, with Paul, I am saying that we should study to show ourselves approved.
    If you are going to teach or discuss the law of either or both covenants, you should gain a good understanding of both.
    I would agree with a lot of that. But I can't really sign on to the typical saying, "we do not obey it to gain salvation, but rather to express the love in our hearts that the Holy Spirit has put there." I don't believe that God *ever* gave the Law of Moses to direct men to pursue salvation by keeping the Law! Paul argued that men may have attempted to gain salvation through obedience to the Law of Moses. But he never said that was God's intention!

    I believe the Law of Moses was a set of laws that were to legitimately express righteousness through faith, without trusting in man's own self-righteousness for justification. It was the use of symbols to express dependence on God for His acceptance of these temporal symbols of sacrifice and priesthood. They were not adequate for eternal salvation, but they were indeed adequate for acceptance as righteousness in the temporary vein of things. Eternal salvation, of course, depended on Christ coming and dying for sins, and then giving his spirit to us for our eternal justification.

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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kahtar View Post
    Can you provide how or where you see Paul indicating there is no sabbath please?
    Sure.

    Col 2.16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

  14. #44
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    Spiritual gymnastics. But that is what a lot of Bible "teachers" teach these days.
    NA

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    You need to review the Bible account of the golden calf: "Now therefore let Me alone, that My wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation" Exodus 32:10.

    God was ready to wipe out the entire Jewish nation and replace it with Moses' decedents. Hardly "some people" It was complete apostasy.
    You missed part of the message. Moses appealed to God for them. God seems to have been pleased with that, because Moses recognized the importance of their place in God's heart.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    more nonsense

    The one commandment out of the 10 that God says REMEMBER is the one that you call temporary. The Day that Jesus claimed Lordship over is the one day that you want to trample so that you can put another in its place. The God that never changes "I change not" personally writes it in STONE and you call it Temporary"?
    God's nature doesn't change. But He certainly has changed His mind. When people repent God is willing to turn judgment into mercy. God wanted the Israelites of the OT to remember the Sabbath Day--not the Gentiles, and not NT believers.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    True there are the sins of omission and commission. But since God spells out 10 specific do's and don'ts it is even more sinful to claim that they are invalid and ignore the very things that are specifically mentioned. You may plead that you did not know your brother needed 10,00 but you have no defense when you willingly violate one of the 10 commandments and teach others to do it with you.
    I was responding to your claim that the Law of Moses defined all sin--it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    Changing the focus from know sin to a vague nebulas of the unknown? That might confuse people who are not grounded in the Scriptures, but it won't work when you stand before your Maker and He discerns a rebellious heart that was not subject to the law of God.
    I'm not subject to *your judgment.* Your judgment doesn't hold water if it doesn't match up with *God's judgment.* To presume your judgement is God's judgment is in fact sin. That's called "judgmentalism."

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    you have sold yourself a bill of goods that is in direct rebellion against the LAW of God. It is not worthy of being called food for thought. everyone following this thread should Run away from it as quickly as possible.
    NA

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    Sinners live under the condemnation of the law. "The wages of sin is death..."
    That's my point about the Law of Moses. It never redeemed men from death. Only Christ could do that. To return to the Law is a return to a system that could not redeem from death.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    If Jesus had broken the 10 commandment, He would have been a sinner and under the curse of the law. But He kept the law to make up for the fact that we broke the law and continuously do so. Jesus did not die that we could willfully continue to break the law.
    Of course Jesus didn't break the Law! He was sinless. And the Law of Moses was written for sinful Israel, and not for him--a sinless man. All of the commandments had to do with dealing with the separation between God and sinful man. But Jesus had no separation from God--he *was* God!

    So no, Jesus was not under the Law of Moses. Neither did he violate the Law of Moses, since it wasn't for him. Neither did Jesus violate any of the principles of divine righteousness that existed in the Law--he *was* God. He *was* the righteousness of God.

    Jesus didn't have to keep Sabbath law, but likely did, to convey to sinful Jews that they were required to do so until his redemption was complete. Jesus got baptized for the same reason, to let sinful Jews know that they should repent under John the Baptist's ministry. Jesus was not subject to the Law--he only followed the Law to set an example for sinful Israel, so that they would be prepared for his redemption.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    At last some truth!

    Now comes the error. Jesus did not eat pigs and He commanded the devils to go into them.
    Can you imagine Jesus telling His followers to eat meat that was possessed by demons?

    It is no wonder that you missed the point. You wrote a book in response. And when I replied in kind, it makes many words that will have little effect on a heart that is in rebellion against the law of God. But to be polite and answer your question: what you mean by "Christ's Sabbath?"

    Luke 6:5 "And He [Jesus] said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath."
    This doesn't answer the question. Saying Jesus is Lord over the Sabbath does not mean Christ has retained the Sabbath requirement for either Jew or Gentile in the New Testament. Jesus, of course, was Lord over everything, including over the Law that he had given. He was Lord over men, who in Israel had been subject to the Law of Moses. And as Lord, he may also dispose of the Sabbath requirement, in view of his redemption from death. There is no longer any need to keep human regulations, since eternal life has already been given.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    Is Paul a liar?
    Acts 13:42 "And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath."

    After Paul preached to the Jews on Sabbath, he did not preach to the Gentiles on Sunday, but had them come back next Sabbath.
    To twist Paul's words to make him say that the Sabbath is not the Sabbath, is to refuse to see how his keeping the Sabbath contradicts your theories.
    Meeting on a specific day says nothing about the legitimacy of OT rules in the NT era. Even though Jews follow OT rules, that doesn't make them of any value whatsoever. It still pays, when dealing with Jews, to know that they are less approachable on the Sabbath Day. It may also mean that in Paul's time, the Sabbath Day was a good time to reach out to them if you were a fellow Jew.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    Righteousness is RIGHT DOING Sin is transgression of the law.

    That my friend is obvious by your perversion of the Scriptures that you set forth here.
    It is something that only God will be able to set right by the Holy Spirit.
    And if it is a deep seated as it appears, it will be a danger to all who are contaminated by it.

    God have mercy on you.
    lol! And may God have mercy on you, as well.

  15. #45
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Sure.

    Col 2.16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
    Obviously this proves Paul did understand a Sabbath existed. He is teaching not to let anyone judge others about the Sabbath. The current Sabbath is rest in Christ, not related to any specific day of the week like it used to be but today, tomorrow or any day.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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