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Thread: Are The Laws Done Away With?

  1. #61
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    I’d like to see the list of commandments you’ve broken over the past 30 days
    .

    You would be likelier to get a response had you said "years". I'm suspecting perfection. Could be wrong.

    I’d like to see the list of commandments you’ve broken over the past 30 days
    .

    You would be likelier to get a response had you said "years". I'm suspecting perfection. Could be wrong.

  2. #62
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    The Ten written in stone by the finger of God.
    Which of them are you suggesting that I should forget?
    The Mosaic Law is obviously more than the 10 commandments. Leviticus has a fair insight into the 613 odd statutes that Slug1 alluded to.

  3. #63
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Okay, let me ask you some questions. When was the Sabbath established? Why was the Sabbath established? And who established the Sabbath?
    I'm not sure when the Sabbath was established? It was established *as a law* only during the Law of Moses, but it certainly may have become a custom at any point in time. God established the Sabbath, as a *legal requirement* under the Law. And it was established to keep Man from trying to produce, without the help of God, at a time when God said He would not bless that work.

    In other words, the Sabbath showed the critical nature of Man working directly under the verbal sanction of God. Apart from application of God's word, all of Man's works are worthless, and in fact, disobedient. We are to always be led, in our conscience, by God's word operating upon our conscience. We are to live in the image of God, after His likeness.

    Now, here is where I engage in a little enlightened speculation. I believe the Law was a portrait of a sinful nation in need of final redemption. It portrayed the hope of Israel in having the covenant between God and themselves established for all time and eternity. This could only happen by the redemption of Christ.

    And so, the Law was a temporary fill-in, portraying this situation. Once Israel was redeemed, and no longer viewed as a sinful nation, the images of the Law were no longer necessary. Israel no longer had to be portrayed as sinful.

    This means, as regards Sabbath Law, that the need to show human independence from God's word no longer had to be portrayed. In obedience to God, Israel always operates by the word of God, and all their works represent redeemed works. There is no longer any need for Sabbath rest, to show man's separation from God's word.

    Of course, we know that today, only a remnant of Israel has achieved NT redemption. The unbelieving majority in Israel has neither the Law nor the NT to draw upon, in their hope of final redemption. They *must* come to Christ to be redeemed. And they *cannot* rely on the OT Law, which no longer applies in the NT era, since Christ has already brought his redemption. This redemption renders the former covenant moot.

  4. #64
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Hmm, both and! The central tenants of the law in the OT covenant are still in effect. Jesus cites many of them and so they are part of the NT covenant with God's people comprised of both Jew and Gentile. However, there were certain OT covenant laws that were abolished. All the OT covenant laws pertaining to the wall of separation between Jews and Gentiles were, for example, abolished. I will note that the transition into God's new covenant community was not always smooth between Jews and Gentiles, but the reality had always been there and promised in the OT. Just saying.

  5. #65

    Cool Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not sure when the Sabbath was established? It was established *as a law* only during the Law of Moses, but it certainly may have become a custom at any point in time. God established the Sabbath, as a *legal requirement* under the Law. And it was established to keep Man from trying to produce, without the help of God, at a time when God said He would not bless that work.

    To get a handle on the relationship between sin and law, we first need to see who Christ really was. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made. He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” (John 1:1–3, 10, 14)

    Also, Colossians 1:14–17: “In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.” So Christ creates and sustains all things.

    Christ is the one the sanctified the Sabbath at creation. In fact, Christ was the One with the Israelites in the wilderness. “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: And that Rock was Christ.” (1 Cor. 10:1–4) It was always the pre-incarnate Jesus, dealing with all the patriarchs of old.

    For those of you that say Christ changed for the New Testament, I offer the following: “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.” (Heb. 13:8) “For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, wherein shall we return?” (Mal. 3:6–7).

    Paul admonishes: “But now the righteousness of God without [Gr. outside] the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: For there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation [Gr. reconciliation] through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: That He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” (Rom. 3:21–26) Add Romans 3:31 to that. “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: Yea, we establish the law.”

    We establish the law in love. Establishing the law, we ought to walk in newness of life. “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: That like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” (Rom. 6:1–4)-
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  6. #66
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Bernard View Post
    Hmm, both and! The central tenants of the law in the OT covenant are still in effect.
    What tenets of the Law in the OT are still in effect? The entire Law, with all of its rules and regulations, are encompassed in a single agreement between God and Israel. That agreement was never sufficient to establish an *eternal* relationship between God and men. However, it was given to Israel as a starter, to start them down the path of living in relationship with God.

    Nevertheless, the rules and regulations of the Law were designed to expose the shortcomings of Man without the final redemption of Christ. As such, *none of it* is part of Christ's New Testament Covenant. The principles of morality and righteousness are the same in the sense that it is the same God in both testaments--the same Spirit, the same sense of justice, the same holiness. But the Covenant itself is different in the OT from the Covenant in the NT. And so, some laws are the same and some are different in the OT. But the entire package is gone in favor of the new package, the NT Covenant of Christ.

    Any law that stands alone, apart from Christ, is worthless with respect to eternal redemption. And there is no relationship of Christ to laws that reflect upon Man's insufficiencies. Such laws as needing animal purification, sabbath rest, and temple worship, were all for the purpose of showing man's insufficiency without Christ. They would stand alone, apart from Christ, if practiced today. As such, they have zero value with respect to Christian redemption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Bernard
    Jesus cites many of them and so they are part of the NT covenant with God's people comprised of both Jew and Gentile. However, there were certain OT covenant laws that were abolished. All the OT covenant laws pertaining to the wall of separation between Jews and Gentiles were, for example, abolished. I will note that the transition into God's new covenant community was not always smooth between Jews and Gentiles, but the reality had always been there and promised in the OT. Just saying.
    The laws did separate pagan Gentiles from Jews who followed the Law. But now the Gospel applies equally to all nations, and Israel, as a nation, failed herself to remain separate from paganism.

    There is still a need for Christians to separate themselves from sinners, to some extent. However, I would reiterate that we should not be talking about individual laws within the Law of Moses. They were all packaged together under a single Covenant, all of which does not apply under the New Testament, except as a reference to the nature of God.

    Jesus referred to some of these laws while Israel was, as yet, under the Law of Moses. But after the cross, it became plain that God's national dealings with Israel was over, for the foreseeable future. The entire body of law had become encompassed in the life of Christ himself, who was the complete picture of mercy for sinful Man.

    There is no longer any need to observe the Laws of Moses to show our inadequacies. Our adequacy is now in Christ.

  7. #67
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    To get a handle on the relationship between sin and law, we first need to see who Christ really was. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made. He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” (John 1:1–3, 10, 14)

    Also, Colossians 1:14–17: “In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.” So Christ creates and sustains all things.

    Christ is the one the sanctified the Sabbath at creation.
    Not so fast! Let's not conflate the Week of Creation with Israel's work week, and Sabbath, under the Law! They are not the same thing!

    The Law showed Man that he, as a sinner, needed to rest from his impure works and rest on the Sabbath Day. By contrast, God rested on the 7th Day of Creation to simply show that He had finished the task He had in mind in Creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade
    In fact, Christ was the One with the Israelites in the wilderness. “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: And that Rock was Christ.” (1 Cor. 10:1–4) It was always the pre-incarnate Jesus, dealing with all the patriarchs of old.

    For those of you that say Christ changed for the New Testament, I offer the following: “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.” (Heb. 13:8) “For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, wherein shall we return?” (Mal. 3:6–7).
    You are confusing things, and conflating things that do not belong together. Saying that laws under the Mosaic Law had not changed *while that covenant remained in effect* is not saying that the Law would not effectively change under the New Covenant of Christ!

    You, in other words, are only quoting the prophet who indicates that Israel's compliance with the Law had changed to non-compliance at the same time that the laws had not gone away. The Law had not changed its requirements during the entire time of the Old Covenant.

    Clearly, with the fulfillment of sin offerings Christ changed all that. He became the eternal atonement for sin, making all other sacrifices for sin unnecessary and moot. This clearly was a major change of law!

    And to say that Jesus Christ does not change yesterday and today is hardly a proclamation that the Law is no different from the New Covenant! Clearly, Jesus is the same God-Man he was when he walked this earth. He is today exactly as he was while he walked under the Law, because he remains essentially the same person. He never needed an atonement for his own sin. And still needs none today!

    All this says nothing about the status of Man before Christian redemption and after Christian redemption. Surely things have changed now that we've been redeemed!

    Israel no longer has to abide by a law that looked forward to Christian redemption. That redemption has already come. Temple law is no longer needed. The priesthood is no longer needed. Animal sacrifices are no longer needed. Neither are food laws, purification laws, festival laws, etc. needed.

    These were shadows. Certainly, moral laws remain in effect because we were made to live in the image of God. None of that will ever change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade
    Paul admonishes: “But now the righteousness of God without [Gr. outside] the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: For there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation [Gr. reconciliation] through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: That He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” (Rom. 3:21–26) Add Romans 3:31 to that. “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: Yea, we establish the law.”
    Amen! It's just as I said. Now that Christian redemption has come, laws that only looked forward to this redemption are no longer in play. This is "outside of the Law." The Law had only "borne witness to it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade
    We establish the law in love. Establishing the law, we ought to walk in newness of life. “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: That like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” (Rom. 6:1–4)
    Sin is defined not just as opposition to the Law of Moses when that Law was in effect. Sin is defined as opposition to the word of God no matter what God's word is for us at any time. During the Law, sin was defined by Israel's lack of compliance to that Law. Apart from the Law, sin is defined as ignoring God's word within our conscience, for we were made in the image of God.

    Sin is dealt with not just by the Law, for Israel, but rather, only by the redemption of Christ. And that's because the Law was never meant to provide any more than temporary redemption, until final redemption could come through Christ. Only Christ provides eternal redemption--nothing under the Law may do so.

  8. #68

    Cool Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Not so fast! Let's not conflate the Week of Creation with Israel's work week, and Sabbath, under the Law! They are not the same thing!

    The Law showed Man that he, as a sinner, needed to rest from his impure works and rest on the Sabbath Day. By contrast, God rested on the 7th Day of Creation to simply show that He had finished the task He had in mind in Creation.
    God not only rested, He sanctified the seventh day and made it holy. Then He says be ye holy, for I am holy (see 1 Peter 1:16). God later made the Sabbath a sign for who are His people (see Exo. 31:13).

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You are confusing things, and conflating things that do not belong together. Saying that laws under the Mosaic Law had not changed *while that covenant remained in effect* is not saying that the Law would not effectively change under the New Covenant of Christ!

    You, in other words, are only quoting the prophet who indicates that Israel's compliance with the Law had changed to non-compliance at the same time that the laws had not gone away. The Law had not changed its requirements during the entire time of the Old Covenant.

    Clearly, with the fulfillment of sin offerings Christ changed all that. He became the eternal atonement for sin, making all other sacrifices for sin unnecessary and moot. This clearly was a major change of law!

    And to say that Jesus Christ does not change yesterday and today is hardly a proclamation that the Law is no different from the New Covenant! Clearly, Jesus is the same God-Man he was when he walked this earth. He is today exactly as he was while he walked under the Law, because he remains essentially the same person. He never needed an atonement for his own sin. And still needs none today!

    All this says nothing about the status of Man before Christian redemption and after Christian redemption. Surely things have changed now that we've been redeemed!

    Israel no longer has to abide by a law that looked forward to Christian redemption. That redemption has already come. Temple law is no longer needed. The priesthood is no longer needed. Animal sacrifices are no longer needed. Neither are food laws, purification laws, festival laws, etc. needed.

    These were shadows. Certainly, moral laws remain in effect because we were made to live in the image of God. None of that will ever change.
    Certainly the sacrificial laws were done away as the blood of Christ fulfills that. They were never perfect but were place holders awaiting the perfect. As far as the rest of the laws, Christ Himself kept them. He all said none would cease until all are fulfilled (see Matt. 5:18).

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Amen! It's just as I said. Now that Christian redemption has come, laws that only looked forward to this redemption are no longer in play. This is "outside of the Law." The Law had only "borne witness to it."
    Has redemption really come or are we still waiting?(see 1 Cor 9:24-27).

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Sin is defined not just as opposition to the Law of Moses when that Law was in effect. Sin is defined as opposition to the word of God no matter what God's word is for us at any time. During the Law, sin was defined by Israel's lack of compliance to that Law. Apart from the Law, sin is defined as ignoring God's word within our conscience, for we were made in the image of God.

    Sin is dealt with not just by the Law, for Israel, but rather, only by the redemption of Christ. And that's because the Law was never meant to provide any more than temporary redemption, until final redemption could come through Christ. Only Christ provides eternal redemption--nothing under the Law may do so.
    Is not the Old Testament along with the laws still considered the word of God? Matt. 5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  9. #69
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    God not only rested, He sanctified the seventh day and made it holy. Then He says be ye holy, for I am holy (see 1 Peter 1:16). God later made the Sabbath a sign for who are His people (see Exo. 31:13).
    That was true only under the Law of Moses. The Law set Israel apart, among the pagan nations, to be God's special people.

    The Law was "sanctified" for the very purpose of showing that Israel was guilty due to having a sin nature--a nature that naturally led men in rebellion against God's word. This was worthy of death. The Law set these guilty Hebrews apart from the rest of guilty mankind in order to show God's willingness to be merciful towards them.

    Under the New Covenant there is no need to set apart men from others as the objects of God's mercy. God's mercy has already been revealed in Christ. There is no need for a Sabbath law to show this. Men in Christ are no longer to be revealed as "guilty men." We are no longer to be shown as men still guilty of a sin nature, whom God has mercy on. Nor is it necessary to separate Israel from the rest of the nations, since all nations can now be free of the guilt of sin through Christ's universal redemption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade
    Certainly the sacrificial laws were done away as the blood of Christ fulfills that. They were never perfect but were place holders awaiting the perfect. As far as the rest of the laws, Christ Himself kept them. He all said none would cease until all are fulfilled (see Matt. 5:18).
    You are misreading what Jesus meant here. Jesus spoke of these things and applied them *while the Law was still in effect.* Jesus modeled observance of the Law on behalf of Israel, not needing to observe the Law for himself. He did not have a sin nature, and required no purification under the Law, nor any redemption from human sin.

    Jesus, in effect, said that *every law* in the Law of Moses, as applied to Israel, was a matter of obedience or sin. It all was important. All of God's word must be fulfilled as long as the universe remains. It is not a statement that the laws under the Old Covenant will remain forever, but that every word of God contained in the Law had to be fulfilled. The entire fulfillment of the Law is not a continuation of the Old Covenant of Law, but rather, the work of Christ himself, whose righteousness will never end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade
    Has redemption really come or are we still waiting?(see 1 Cor 9:24-27).



    Is not the Old Testament along with the laws still considered the word of God? Matt. 5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
    Yes, the word of God was synonymous with the Law, and applied to Israel only in a specific context--in the context of leading Israel to final redemption. Once Christ came and brought that final redemption, the word of God was fulfilled *in Christ.*

  10. #70

    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by Servant Morris View Post
    This subject in my opinion, is of #2 importance when it comes to putting on the whole armour of God. I've grown up in an environment that expressed that it wasn't required or expedient to keep the laws of God. I attempt to shed light on the subject with this two part video.
    God Bless!
    https://youtu.be/VczCx8hI1ZQ

    often it becomes hard to come to agreement because many people have a different idea of what one means when you say laws...

    Christians are obligated to learn and follow after the gospel, the things Jesus Christ taught. It's the eternal law. Moses and his law is not Christian law . There are two " religions" in the bible , Judaism and Christianity. Christianity is born as a manifestation of all the promises to Israel , made to them , but promised to be for all people through the messiah who was promised to Israel.

    the law and prophets were to bring the world to the Christ . As Christians we have a responsibility to love right. One can say well I need to obey Moses.....but if one obeys everything Moses instructed.....you would then be transgressing the things Christ taught. It's strange to me , but very very few Christians understand that the four gospels , Jesus ministry is the same forever it is the mediation of the new and eternal covenant between God and all mankind.

    we follow Christ and his doctrine. That's our law and its far better than the mosaic

  11. #71
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    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    often it becomes hard to come to agreement because many people have a different idea of what one means when you say laws...

    Christians are obligated to learn and follow after the gospel, the things Jesus Christ taught. It's the eternal law. Moses and his law is not Christian law . There are two " religions" in the bible , Judaism and Christianity. Christianity is born as a manifestation of all the promises to Israel , made to them , but promised to be for all people through the messiah who was promised to Israel.

    the law and prophets were to bring the world to the Christ . As Christians we have a responsibility to love right. One can say well I need to obey Moses.....but if one obeys everything Moses instructed.....you would then be transgressing the things Christ taught. It's strange to me , but very very few Christians understand that the four gospels , Jesus ministry is the same forever it is the mediation of the new and eternal covenant between God and all mankind.

    we follow Christ and his doctrine. That's our law and its far better than the mosaic
    I agree with you except that I don't believe the Law of Moses was designed to *directly* bring the whole world to Christ. I believe it *indirectly* was designed to bring the whole world to Christ by bringing *Israel* to Christ 1st.

    That's why God used the apostles of Christ in Israel to begin the process of world evangelization. That's why God used Paul and Barnabus, and Peter, to launch an international ministry among the Gentiles. It was not by the Law directly, but by Israelis who by the Law had been led to Christ.

    But you're right. The Law of Moses was designed to lead Israel to Christ. The Law of Moses has been superseded by Christian Law.

    When Israel was under the Law, Christ continued to preach the righteousness of the Law "forever." But by that he intended to show that the Law's righteousness would be fulfilled in himself, so that indeed this righteousness would continue forever, via his own resurrection from the dead.

    This is the righteousness of the Law, not as a repeat or duplicate of the Law of Moses, but rather, as a promised fulfillment of what the Law showed had to be fulfilled in Christ. It is the fulfillment of the Law that lasts forever--not the Law of Moses itself.

    The Law, in so many ways, showed that Christ had to complete the Law, that the Law itself could not provide its own promised redemption. Animal sacrifices could only bring temporary redemption. But they symbolized the sacrifice Christ himself would make.

    All of the mandates of the Law would never deliver mankind from death. The sin nature is stamped upon our soul. We still have to die, no matter how much of the Law Israel kept.

    And so, only Christ's redemption could deliver men from the death that the Law promised. Only Christ could deliver the eternal redemption that the Law of Moses portrayed.

    To return to the Law would be foolish. It was always meant to be fulfilled in Christ.

  12. #72

    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I agree with you except that I don't believe the Law of Moses was designed to *directly* bring the whole world to Christ. I believe it *indirectly* was designed to bring the whole world to Christ by bringing *Israel* to Christ 1st.

    That's why God used the apostles of Christ in Israel to begin the process of world evangelization. That's why God used Paul and Barnabus, and Peter, to launch an international ministry among the Gentiles. It was not by the Law directly, but by Israelis who by the Law had been led to Christ.

    But you're right. The Law of Moses was designed to lead Israel to Christ. The Law of Moses has been superseded by Christian Law.

    When Israel was under the Law, Christ continued to preach the righteousness of the Law "forever." But by that he intended to show that the Law's righteousness would be fulfilled in himself, so that indeed this righteousness would continue forever, via his own resurrection from the dead.

    This is the righteousness of the Law, not as a repeat or duplicate of the Law of Moses, but rather, as a promised fulfillment of what the Law showed had to be fulfilled in Christ. It is the fulfillment of the Law that lasts forever--not the Law of Moses itself.

    The Law, in so many ways, showed that Christ had to complete the Law, that the Law itself could not provide its own promised redemption. Animal sacrifices could only bring temporary redemption. But they symbolized the sacrifice Christ himself would make.

    All of the mandates of the Law would never deliver mankind from death. The sin nature is stamped upon our soul. We still have to die, no matter how much of the Law Israel kept.

    And so, only Christ's redemption could deliver men from the death that the Law promised. Only Christ could deliver the eternal redemption that the Law of Moses portrayed.

    To return to the Law would be foolish. It was always meant to be fulfilled in Christ.

    yea it was to bring the world to Christ ....you are talking about the process of how it happened. It was laid out in prophecy like that , everything was promised to Israel concerning the messiah ,mart of the messianic prophecies were that the Christ would not be only to redeem Jacob, but would be sent to the Gentiles all people who would accept the messiah as lord and savior. Sure like your saying it happened through Israel ....it's part of the design to redeem mankind that is shown in the prophets and fulfilled in the gospel.

    God didn't just create Israel, he didn't just love Israel , thier testament was always meant to bring the world into reconciliation with God , through Jesus Christ and the nexus of the cross ar Calvary . His death , is for all men, his gospel is for all men ... beginning at Israel after his resurrection , salvation was sent to all the world and the dividing wall between Jew and gentile was abolished now all men can belong to God based not on the bloodline of our ancestors, but based solely upon the bloodline ofmjesus Christ. Who by faith in him , both Jew and gentile can be the children of the living God by faith in his only Son.


    What superceed the law of Moses ? .......the ministry of Christ is the eternal law of God. We have the law of the spirit , which is the teachings and commands of Jesus. The righteousness of the law ...is to do what's right. Don't steal , rather give like Jesus taught to the needy. That's the righteousness of the law. To not kill, commit violence against each other, but rather be like the Good Samaritan , go out of your way to help someone who's had a hard way to go, help to heal wounds , don't create them....that's the righteousness of the law. Don't stand before God promise to honor your marriage and then go break your vows and commit adultery....honor your marriage as if it's your promise to God , like Jesus taught....

    to do the right thing , fulfills the righteousness of the law. It had nothing to do with ceremonies, washings, all of the strict ordinances contained in the mosaic law, it is now and has always been about , recognizing our own sins according to Gods standard, and changing our ways because we realize ... Doing so is life and continuing on in sin is death.


    through Christ we can now be changed inwardly through his doctrine, his knowledge offered to us he teaches us the truth , how to think about God , ourselves, each other, life , death, eternity....as Christians we are to seek after the image of Christ and imitate all he taught .....it's the mind of the spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I agree with you except that I don't believe the Law of Moses was designed to *directly* bring the whole world to Christ. I believe it *indirectly* was designed to bring the whole world to Christ by bringing *Israel* to Christ 1st.

    That's why God used the apostles of Christ in Israel to begin the process of world evangelization. That's why God used Paul and Barnabus, and Peter, to launch an international ministry among the Gentiles. It was not by the Law directly, but by Israelis who by the Law had been led to Christ.

    But you're right. The Law of Moses was designed to lead Israel to Christ. The Law of Moses has been superseded by Christian Law.

    When Israel was under the Law, Christ continued to preach the righteousness of the Law "forever." But by that he intended to show that the Law's righteousness would be fulfilled in himself, so that indeed this righteousness would continue forever, via his own resurrection from the dead.

    This is the righteousness of the Law, not as a repeat or duplicate of the Law of Moses, but rather, as a promised fulfillment of what the Law showed had to be fulfilled in Christ. It is the fulfillment of the Law that lasts forever--not the Law of Moses itself.

    The Law, in so many ways, showed that Christ had to complete the Law, that the Law itself could not provide its own promised redemption. Animal sacrifices could only bring temporary redemption. But they symbolized the sacrifice Christ himself would make.

    All of the mandates of the Law would never deliver mankind from death. The sin nature is stamped upon our soul. We still have to die, no matter how much of the Law Israel kept.

    And so, only Christ's redemption could deliver men from the death that the Law promised. Only Christ could deliver the eternal redemption that the Law of Moses portrayed.

    To return to the Law would be foolish. It was always meant to be fulfilled in Christ.

    yea it was to bring the world to Christ ....you are talking about the process of how it happened. It was laid out in prophecy like that , everything was promised to Israel concerning the messiah ,mart of the messianic prophecies were that the Christ would not be only to redeem Jacob, but would be sent to the Gentiles all people who would accept the messiah as lord and savior. Sure like your saying it happened through Israel ....it's part of the design to redeem mankind that is shown in the prophets and fulfilled in the gospel.

    God didn't just create Israel, he didn't just love Israel , thier testament was always meant to bring the world into reconciliation with God , through Jesus Christ and the nexus of the cross ar Calvary . His death , is for all men, his gospel is for all men ... beginning at Israel after his resurrection , salvation was sent to all the world and the dividing wall between Jew and gentile was abolished now all men can belong to God based not on the bloodline of our ancestors, but based solely upon the bloodline ofmjesus Christ. Who by faith in him , both Jew and gentile can be the children of the living God by faith in his only Son.


    What superceed the law of Moses ? .......the ministry of Christ is the eternal law of God. We have the law of the spirit , which is the teachings and commands of Jesus. The righteousness of the law ...is to do what's right. Don't steal , rather give like Jesus taught to the needy. That's the righteousness of the law. To not kill, commit violence against each other, but rather be like the Good Samaritan , go out of your way to help someone who's had a hard way to go, help to heal wounds , don't create them....that's the righteousness of the law. Don't stand before God promise to honor your marriage and then go break your vows and commit adultery....honor your marriage as if it's your promise to God , like Jesus taught....

    to do the right thing , fulfills the righteousness of the law. It had nothing to do with ceremonies, washings, all of the strict ordinances contained in the mosaic law, it is now and has always been about , recognizing our own sins according to Gods standard, and changing our ways because we realize ... Doing so is life and continuing on in sin is death.


    through Christ we can now be changed inwardly through his doctrine, his knowledge offered to us he teaches us the truth , how to think about God , ourselves, each other, life , death, eternity....as Christians we are to seek after the image of Christ and imitate all he taught .....it's the mind of the spirit

  13. #73

    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No, they are different although moral laws were kept and are a part of the new law. OT law is called the law of bondage in the NT but the new law if called the law of liberty.


    Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
    Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
    Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
    Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    a Christian is made free by accepting and following the teachings of Christ. What is it were made free from?

    “As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
    **John‬ *8:30-32, 34-36‬ *KJV‬‬


    again Paul says it here


    “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
    **Romans‬ *6:16-18, 20-23‬ *KJV‬‬


    to be set free of the law , one has to come into obedience of the spirit and lay hold of the life and strength it offers for freedom.

    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. ..."
    **John‬ *6:63-64‬ *KJV‬‬


    “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”
    **Romans‬ *8:1-2‬ *KJV‬‬

    we have to accept the gospel , believe it and begin heeding the word of Christ......one important point here " the law of sin and death" is not a reference to the mosaic law , Paul just got done explaining about " the law of sin living within man that wars against the law of the mind that knows Gods law is good and right. The law of sin , is what Christ doctrine removes this conflicted good and evil in is causing us to sin . The law of Moses only ever came because Adam partook of the knowledge of good and evil, this produced a sinful nature in man , and created a need for the law of Moses giving the knowledge of sin to sinful mankind.

    the law of ain Paul explains there is the issue inside of mankind, the answer is to believe and grow in the doctrine Jesus taught ...it's meant to redeem us inside from slavery to the law of sin . It solves this problem as were persever in faith


    “Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
    **Romans‬ *7:20-23‬ *KJV‬‬


    man wasn't created to have this law in them it came because of the knowledge of good and evil...the forbidden fruit. It became an issue that caused man to become sinners , this law brings us into captivity to sin.....as Paul is expressing there for the church . To be free we need the teachings of Christ which condemns the sin in us

    for instance Jesus didn't teach " don't commit adultery" he taught " it's the lust you are looking at others with that is causing the sin of adultery and fornication, deal with the lust in your heart , and you will never have a desire to commit adultery or fornicate"


    Jesus doctrine puts to death the sinful desires like lust, greed, pride, self righteousness, looking down on others, holding grudges, bearing Unforgiveness , hate in the heart...ect... To learn and follow his doctrine will set one free from the power of sin to overpower mans will....

  14. #74

    Cool Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    " Originally Posted by Follower1977: Jesus doctrine puts to death the sinful desires like lust, greed, pride, self righteousness, looking down on others, holding grudges, bearing Unforgiveness , hate in the heart...ect... To learn and follow his doctrine will set one free from the power of sin to overpower mans will....
    I hope I can be like you some day. Do you have all these down pat?
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  15. #75

    Re: Are The Laws Done Away With?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    I hope I can be like you some day. Do you have all these down pat?
    no brother, what I do is wake up every day and take in my savior a words, believe he knows better than I and pray for understanding , and for a way to share with and learn from others who are seeking after him, in various ways. My life was changed by his doctrine, I'm far from perfect but I'm sure on the right oath now days regarding the gospel. I have learned that his doctrine is very different from a lot of what people teach , and of we really really want to know him, his words are the most accurate source to believe and know available to mankind.

    study and prayer.....and a lot of failure trying to do things my way helps me

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    I hope I can be like you some day. Do you have all these down pat?
    no brother, what I do is wake up every day and take in my savior a words, believe he knows better than I and pray for understanding , and for a way to share with and learn from others who are seeking after him, in various ways. My life was changed by his doctrine, I'm far from perfect but I'm sure on the right oath now days regarding the gospel. I have learned that his doctrine is very different from a lot of what people teach , and of we really really want to know him, his words are the most accurate source to believe and know available to mankind.

    study and prayer.....and a lot of failure trying to do things my way helps me

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