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Thread: supercessionism or fulfillment?

  1. #16
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Of course it's true what the Scriptures have to say on the matter. But counting 20 instances of a particular kind of prophecy proves nothing.

    You have not addressed my point that God's promises concerning the Israeli nation cannot fail and cannot be revoked. Claiming there are no such promises is therefore bizarre.
    When do plainly stated prophesies count for nothing? When they conflict with your beliefs? Not a good way to come to the truth!

    God Promises will not fail. He will keep them to His people, righteous Israel. It is just that Israel is not those who want to call themselves by that name. A few Jews are; by accepting Jesus, but the majority are not and will be simply destroyed, as prophesied.

    We Christian peoples will become a single nation:
    The Nation of Beulah
    Isaiah 62:1-2a For Zion’s sake, I shall not keep silent – until her victory shines forth, like the sunrise, her victory like a blazing torch. The nations will see your victory and their rulers your glory.
    Isaiah prophesies for the sake of Zion; the holy Land. There will be a great victory, ‘like a blazing torch’ - a CME sunstrike over the attacking enemies. Isaiah 30:25-30 & 66:15-16, Psalms 11:4-6, Malachi 4:1-3 The world will see it and be amazed. Jeremiah 33:6-16

    Isaiah 62:2b-5 You will receive a new name, the Lord Himself will give it. You will be like a glorious crown in His hand. No more are you forsaken and your Land desolate. You will be called ‘Hephzibah’ and the Land, ‘Beulah’. For the Lord will delight in you and it will be like a marriage: He will rejoice over you as a bridegroom over his bride. ‘Hephzibah’ = My delight is in her. ‘Beulah’ = married. Isaiah 49:18
    The Lord’s people, Christian Israelites will be gathered and settled into their heritage, all of the holy Land, in the new nation of Beulah. Wonderful promises to them of fertility and wealth. They will live in justice, peace and security, as He intended people to be.

    Isaiah 62:6-7 Jerusalem, on your walls, I have posted watchmen, they will call out: You that invoke the Name of the Lord, do not rest and give no rest to the Lord until He makes Jerusalem a praise throughout the world.
    The Hebrew word for ‘watchmen’, is ‘natzar’, the root word for Nazarene; literally all Christian believers. WE must not rest or let the Lord forget His people and His Land. Keep praying for our redemption and restoration. Ezekiel 36:24-28, Isaiah 52:7-9

    Isaiah 62:8-9 The Lord has sworn to never again allow foreigners to take the produce of the Land, but you who give praises to Him will eat the grain and drink the wine, within My sacred courts.
    After the great clearance in the Middle East, only His righteous people will be allowed to live there, those who love the Lord and obey Him. Isaiah 66:20-21, Ezekiel 20:38

    Isaiah 62:10-11 Pass through the gates – clear a road for My people. Build a highway, remove the rocks and make a signal to guide the people. Proclaim to the ends of the earth, say to the offspring of Zion: See your deliverance comes, His reward is with Him and He will make recompense.
    The great gathering of the Lord’s people – the second Exodus, will happen in the same manner as the first Exodus. Leaders [shepherds] will arise to guide the flock, in the spirit of Moses and Elijah. Jeremiah 3:14-15, Isaiah 58:11, Isaiah 43:5-7, Micah 4:6, Isaiah 49:9-13, Isaiah 51:3, Zechariah 8:11-12, Isaiah 40:1-5, Ezekiel 34:11=16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Psalms 107

    Isaiah 62:12 They will be called ‘The Holy people, the Redeemed of God’ and Jerusalem will be called ‘sought after, the City no longer forsaken’.
    The Lord’s faithful Christian people: living in the Holy Land of Beulah, as He created them to live, being a ‘light to the nations’ and witnesses to His salvation. They will send out 144,000 missionaries to every people group, to preach the good news of the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19, 1 Peter 2:9-10, Acts 2:39, Jeremiah 31:23-34

    Joel 2:23-27 People of Zion, rejoice – your God will recompense you for the years that others have ravaged your Land. You will again have plenty in your own Land. Then you will know that I am present in Israel and that I and no other am your God.
    We will know the Lord is present by His deeds. Just as it was at the Exodus. Must be before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.
    Ref; logostelos.info

  2. #17

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    When do plainly stated prophesies count for nothing? When they conflict with your beliefs? Not a good way to come to the truth!

    God Promises will not fail. He will keep them to His people, righteous Israel. It is just that Israel is not those who want to call themselves by that name. A few Jews are; by accepting Jesus, but the majority are not and will be simply destroyed, as prophesied.

    We Christian peoples will become a single nation:
    The Nation of Beulah
    Isaiah 62:1-2a For Zion’s sake, I shall not keep silent – until her victory shines forth, like the sunrise, her victory like a blazing torch. The nations will see your victory and their rulers your glory.
    Isaiah prophesies for the sake of Zion; the holy Land. There will be a great victory, ‘like a blazing torch’ - a CME sunstrike over the attacking enemies. Isaiah 30:25-30 & 66:15-16, Psalms 11:4-6, Malachi 4:1-3 The world will see it and be amazed. Jeremiah 33:6-16

    Isaiah 62:2b-5 You will receive a new name, the Lord Himself will give it. You will be like a glorious crown in His hand. No more are you forsaken and your Land desolate. You will be called ‘Hephzibah’ and the Land, ‘Beulah’. For the Lord will delight in you and it will be like a marriage: He will rejoice over you as a bridegroom over his bride. ‘Hephzibah’ = My delight is in her. ‘Beulah’ = married. Isaiah 49:18
    The Lord’s people, Christian Israelites will be gathered and settled into their heritage, all of the holy Land, in the new nation of Beulah. Wonderful promises to them of fertility and wealth. They will live in justice, peace and security, as He intended people to be.

    Isaiah 62:6-7 Jerusalem, on your walls, I have posted watchmen, they will call out: You that invoke the Name of the Lord, do not rest and give no rest to the Lord until He makes Jerusalem a praise throughout the world.
    The Hebrew word for ‘watchmen’, is ‘natzar’, the root word for Nazarene; literally all Christian believers. WE must not rest or let the Lord forget His people and His Land. Keep praying for our redemption and restoration. Ezekiel 36:24-28, Isaiah 52:7-9

    Isaiah 62:8-9 The Lord has sworn to never again allow foreigners to take the produce of the Land, but you who give praises to Him will eat the grain and drink the wine, within My sacred courts.
    After the great clearance in the Middle East, only His righteous people will be allowed to live there, those who love the Lord and obey Him. Isaiah 66:20-21, Ezekiel 20:38

    Isaiah 62:10-11 Pass through the gates – clear a road for My people. Build a highway, remove the rocks and make a signal to guide the people. Proclaim to the ends of the earth, say to the offspring of Zion: See your deliverance comes, His reward is with Him and He will make recompense.
    The great gathering of the Lord’s people – the second Exodus, will happen in the same manner as the first Exodus. Leaders [shepherds] will arise to guide the flock, in the spirit of Moses and Elijah. Jeremiah 3:14-15, Isaiah 58:11, Isaiah 43:5-7, Micah 4:6, Isaiah 49:9-13, Isaiah 51:3, Zechariah 8:11-12, Isaiah 40:1-5, Ezekiel 34:11=16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Psalms 107

    Isaiah 62:12 They will be called ‘The Holy people, the Redeemed of God’ and Jerusalem will be called ‘sought after, the City no longer forsaken’.
    The Lord’s faithful Christian people: living in the Holy Land of Beulah, as He created them to live, being a ‘light to the nations’ and witnesses to His salvation. They will send out 144,000 missionaries to every people group, to preach the good news of the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19, 1 Peter 2:9-10, Acts 2:39, Jeremiah 31:23-34

    Joel 2:23-27 People of Zion, rejoice – your God will recompense you for the years that others have ravaged your Land. You will again have plenty in your own Land. Then you will know that I am present in Israel and that I and no other am your God.
    We will know the Lord is present by His deeds. Just as it was at the Exodus. Must be before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.
    Ref; logostelos.info
    Hi Keraz, interesting use of OT passages, yet reading these passages seem to confirm to me that it is indeed Israel that will inherit their land, like Joel 2:23 seem to me to point to the opposite of what your saying and that it is indeed the Jew who is brought back into the land,
    People of Zion, rejoice – your God will recompense you for the years that others have ravaged your Land. You will again have plenty in your own Land. Then you will know that I am present in Israel and that I and no other am your God
    I mean I/Church did not not have land that the nations ravaged yet Israel sure did.

    The 144,000 thousand that are sealed are of Israel and more specifically the 12 tribes, already we can see in the future a ethnic division, if there is no future national identity what would be the point?

    How do you view the term fathers, it seems its talking about Israels ancestry, and that their physical descendants will inherit the land.

    Ezek 20:42 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers.

    Also at this time there is a cleansing process, or a regeneration, which to me makes sense if Israel, yet the Church is already clean (another topic but there is a reason why pre trib is the only way to view OT prophecy)

    Ezek 36:28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you.

    Israel are walking in iniquity at the moment as their fathers were, yet the church is viewed as the bride who is clean so we do not need cleansed at the second advent.

    But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land. The land also shall be left empty by them, and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them; they will accept their guilt, because they despised My judgments and because their soul abhorred My statutes. Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God. But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the Lord. Leviticus 26:40-45

    Im aware you will realise the term fathers is used over and over again, so would be interested in your take on it.

  3. #18
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    When do plainly stated prophesies count for nothing? When they conflict with your beliefs? Not a good way to come to the truth!
    Brother, I could say the same thing to you, but obviously we read the Bible differently. Once again, God made irrevocable promises to the nation Israel. I don't have a clue how you can dispute this, ignore it, or rationalize it? And if indeed God made these explicit promises, and if indeed these promises are said to be irrevocable, how indeed can you ignore plain Scriptures promising Israel an eternal inheritance in the land?

    I certainly did not ignore the Scriptures you provided, and fully accept them, except that they do not rule out the ultimate salvation of Israel, as you seem to imply? Saying a remnant of Israel inherits the land 20 times is not the same as saying that remnant will never eventually become a full nation!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    God Promises will not fail. He will keep them to His people, righteous Israel. It is just that Israel is not those who want to call themselves by that name. A few Jews are; by accepting Jesus, but the majority are not and will be simply destroyed, as prophesied.
    God promises things before they come to be. He called the world into existence before it existed, and He calls nations into existence before they came into being. God does not wait for men to convert--He already has determined that there will be nations who devote themselves to Him, and individuals from every nation who devote themselves to Him.

    If men choose not to heed the call, God is able to raise up children out of the rocks. He can do so from every nation. And He can certainly establish whole national theocracies!

    No Scriptures you cite prohibit this from happening. Just the fact that men rebel, and nations rebel, does not prohibit God from finding a way to establish a nation and individuals from their ancestors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    We Christian peoples will become a single nation:
    The Nation of Beulah
    Isaiah 62:1-2a For Zion’s sake, I shall not keep silent – until her victory shines forth, like the sunrise, her victory like a blazing torch. The nations will see your victory and their rulers your glory.
    Isaiah prophesies for the sake of Zion; the holy Land. There will be a great victory, ‘like a blazing torch’ - a CME sunstrike over the attacking enemies. Isaiah 30:25-30 & 66:15-16, Psalms 11:4-6, Malachi 4:1-3 The world will see it and be amazed. Jeremiah 33:6-16

    Isaiah 62:2b-5 You will receive a new name, the Lord Himself will give it. You will be like a glorious crown in His hand. No more are you forsaken and your Land desolate. You will be called ‘Hephzibah’ and the Land, ‘Beulah’. For the Lord will delight in you and it will be like a marriage: He will rejoice over you as a bridegroom over his bride. ‘Hephzibah’ = My delight is in her. ‘Beulah’ = married. Isaiah 49:18
    The Lord’s people, Christian Israelites will be gathered and settled into their heritage, all of the holy Land, in the new nation of Beulah. Wonderful promises to them of fertility and wealth. They will live in justice, peace and security, as He intended people to be.

    Isaiah 62:6-7 Jerusalem, on your walls, I have posted watchmen, they will call out: You that invoke the Name of the Lord, do not rest and give no rest to the Lord until He makes Jerusalem a praise throughout the world.
    The Hebrew word for ‘watchmen’, is ‘natzar’, the root word for Nazarene; literally all Christian believers. WE must not rest or let the Lord forget His people and His Land. Keep praying for our redemption and restoration. Ezekiel 36:24-28, Isaiah 52:7-9

    Isaiah 62:8-9 The Lord has sworn to never again allow foreigners to take the produce of the Land, but you who give praises to Him will eat the grain and drink the wine, within My sacred courts.
    After the great clearance in the Middle East, only His righteous people will be allowed to live there, those who love the Lord and obey Him. Isaiah 66:20-21, Ezekiel 20:38

    Isaiah 62:10-11 Pass through the gates – clear a road for My people. Build a highway, remove the rocks and make a signal to guide the people. Proclaim to the ends of the earth, say to the offspring of Zion: See your deliverance comes, His reward is with Him and He will make recompense.
    The great gathering of the Lord’s people – the second Exodus, will happen in the same manner as the first Exodus. Leaders [shepherds] will arise to guide the flock, in the spirit of Moses and Elijah. Jeremiah 3:14-15, Isaiah 58:11, Isaiah 43:5-7, Micah 4:6, Isaiah 49:9-13, Isaiah 51:3, Zechariah 8:11-12, Isaiah 40:1-5, Ezekiel 34:11=16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Psalms 107

    Isaiah 62:12 They will be called ‘The Holy people, the Redeemed of God’ and Jerusalem will be called ‘sought after, the City no longer forsaken’.
    The Lord’s faithful Christian people: living in the Holy Land of Beulah, as He created them to live, being a ‘light to the nations’ and witnesses to His salvation. They will send out 144,000 missionaries to every people group, to preach the good news of the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19, 1 Peter 2:9-10, Acts 2:39, Jeremiah 31:23-34

    Joel 2:23-27 People of Zion, rejoice – your God will recompense you for the years that others have ravaged your Land. You will again have plenty in your own Land. Then you will know that I am present in Israel and that I and no other am your God.
    We will know the Lord is present by His deeds. Just as it was at the Exodus. Must be before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.
    Ref; logostelos.info
    These OT Scriptures do not prove the Church is Israel. The Church is not Israel. One part of the Church is Israel. Presently, the part of the Church that is Israel is purely a remnant. But this remnant will eventually become a whole Christian nation. I believe that's what God intended when He made His promises to Abraham concerning Israel. You will have to deal with that, because God doesn't lie.

    Be careful--I'm not saying that when the Christian remnant evolves into a full Christian nation that this implies every individual in Israel will actually *be* a Christian. There will always be false Christians, or pretend Christians.

    But I'm saying that Israel will grow to be a whole and complete nation, possessing the entire land as a complete people. And it will be, at least nominally, a Christian nation.

    Undoubtedly a good number of the Jews will be true Christians. But it will be no less true that many of the Jews will be purely nominal Christians, embracing the Christian religion without fully embracing the God of that religion.

    Mind you, this is a completely sensible concept, because Israel has been a functioning theocracy in ancient history, and many nations have been functioning Christian theocracies in the NT age. These were complete nations, and not just small remnants salvaged after a complete national disaster or judgment.

    The idea of a complete nation stands in distinction with what exists following a major judgment, leaving only a small number in the land. This is not a complete nation, but only survivors.

    Full national salvation, biblically, requires that a complete nation be restored, in terms of numbers, and that they adopt a Christian Constitution. It does not require that every individual Jew be truly spiritual or observant.

  4. #19
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Thanks for the well considered replies. I present Isaiah 51:1-2, to prove that we Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham:

    Listen to Me, all you who follow after the right, consider the rock from which you were hewn, the quarry from which you were cut. Consider Abraham your father and Sarah to one who gave you birth. When I called him he was but one, I blessed him and made him many.
    This truth is reiterated in Galatians 3:26-29.

    Jesus is the true Israel, He overcame Satan for God.
    We Christians who follow after righteousness and keep the Commandments, are Israelites. 2 Corinthians 1:19-20, proves that all the Promises of God accrue to us thru Jesus.
    Thinking that the apostate, atheistic and Jesus rejecting Jews have any claim on God's promises, is contrary to all we are told in the Bible.

    Thanks for the well considered replies. I present Isaiah 51:1-2, to prove that we Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham:

    Listen to Me, all you who follow after the right, consider the rock from which you were hewn, the quarry from which you were cut. Consider Abraham your father and Sarah to one who gave you birth. When I called him he was but one, I blessed him and made him many.
    This truth is reiterated in Galatians 3:26-29.

    Jesus is the true Israel, He overcame Satan for God.
    We Christians who follow after righteousness and keep the Commandments, are Israelites. 2 Corinthians 1:19-20, proves that all the Promises of God accrue to us thru Jesus.
    Thinking that the apostate, atheistic and Jesus rejecting Jews have any claim on God's promises, is contrary to all we are told in the Bible.

  5. #20
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No question that the faith of the saints and the faith intended to be engendered in the nation Israel were the same. But there is a difference between individual saints and select nations.



    There is a difference between starting nations generally and starting specifically-theocratic nations. Israel was the beginning of God's establishment of a theocracy in a nation.
    Yes there is a difference the saints our saved through faith and selected nations aren’t only the faithful individuals within those nations are

    I agree Israel was the first established Godly nation but Jesus established the church made up of both Jew and gentile and I don’t believe that it is a coincidence that Israel as it was came to an end shortly after

  6. #21

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Thanks for the well considered replies. I present Isaiah 51:1-2, to prove that we Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham:

    Listen to Me, all you who follow after the right, consider the rock from which you were hewn, the quarry from which you were cut. Consider Abraham your father and Sarah to one who gave you birth. When I called him he was but one, I blessed him and made him many.
    This truth is reiterated in Galatians 3:26-29.

    Jesus is the true Israel, He overcame Satan for God.
    We Christians who follow after righteousness and keep the Commandments, are Israelites. 2 Corinthians 1:19-20, proves that all the Promises of God accrue to us thru Jesus.
    Thinking that the apostate, atheistic and Jesus rejecting Jews have any claim on God's promises, is contrary to all we are told in the Bible.
    Thanks Keraz, We are indeed inheritors of the promises exactly as the verses you have provided state. By faith we obtain the far better blessings through Jesus Christ(not that any saints miss out) And are spiritual children of Abraham.

    Im unsure what this has to do with the millennial period, believers in that period will also become co-heirs through Christ, and like us will look forward to the eternal state where we will receive our inheritance and eternal life as promised by God.

    Abraham, by faith looked for that heavenly city, to that hope reserved in heaven as we do.

    No ones saying unbelieving Jews will lay claim to any of these promises? I don't understand why you think some unbelieving Jews in the time of trouble cannot repent and accept Christ and enter into the land which was promised them(not us) at the second coming. Although they will enter into the land promised them, just like all the saints before them, they will also look forward to the spiritual promises and hope of the resurrection through Christ at the end of this period.

    If Abraham was alive and living in Israel during this future time, by faith he would still be looking heaven ward and not to these lesser earthly promises.
    By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country... for he waited for the city whose builder and maker is God Heb 11:10

    I also think everyone agrees with you on your above points, yet you don't seem to acknowledge or answer their points of a earthly land promised to a physical nation? Just would like to understand how you combine the verses they use into your thinking?

  7. #22
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Paul is always a great Bible writer to quote to get things stirred up (though he intended to settle matters)

    "The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in" (Romans 11:19)

    "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off..." (11:20)

    Are branches that are broken off still part of the olive tree?

    "For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee" (11:21)

    "if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again" (11:23)

    They can be grafted back in in they believe, but while in unbelief are they not separated from God?

    "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
    that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." (11:25).

    "For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief" (11:30)

    The facts that Paul is presenting say that the gentiles were separated from God until they were grafted in
    and when the Jews separated themselves from Christ, they were broken off until such time as they believe
    and are grafted back into the family of God.

  8. #23
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Thanks Keraz, We are indeed inheritors of the promises exactly as the verses you have provided state. By faith we obtain the far better blessings through Jesus Christ(not that any saints miss out) And are spiritual children of Abraham.

    Im unsure what this has to do with the millennial period, believers in that period will also become co-heirs through Christ, and like us will look forward to the eternal state where we will receive our inheritance and eternal life as promised by God.

    Abraham, by faith looked for that heavenly city, to that hope reserved in heaven as we do.

    No ones saying unbelieving Jews will lay claim to any of these promises? I don't understand why you think some unbelieving Jews in the time of trouble cannot repent and accept Christ and enter into the land which was promised them(not us) at the second coming. Although they will enter into the land promised them, just like all the saints before them, they will also look forward to the spiritual promises and hope of the resurrection through Christ at the end of this period.

    If Abraham was alive and living in Israel during this future time, by faith he would still be looking heaven ward and not to these lesser earthly promises.
    By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country... for he waited for the city whose builder and maker is God Heb 11:10

    I also think everyone agrees with you on your above points, yet you don't seem to acknowledge or answer their points of a earthly land promised to a physical nation? Just would like to understand how you combine the verses they use into your thinking?
    We Christians do inherit the holy Land. Just as Jesus said in Matthew 21:43; immediately after the Parable of the Landowner.
    Many prophesies describe the Lord's people living there in peace and prosperity, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, and when we are attacked He will destroy those attackers. Ezekiel 38-39, Joel 2:20
    The Bible never tells us that we will leave this earth, it is our home; made for us and the holy Land is where His faithful people will live, at last being the people He always wanted there; His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

  9. #24

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    We Christians do inherit the holy Land. Just as Jesus said in Matthew 21:43; immediately after the Parable of the Landowner.
    But read the context it says the kingdom of God will be taken from those who killed the Son, those who rejected the stone, and the kingdom will given to another nation bearing the fruits of it. Five verses later Matthew then refers to the kingdom as the kingdom of heaven. The church is referred to as a holy nation and the Lord also said my kingdom is not of this world. So I view us as heavenly body/nation, when we are absent from the body we are then present with the Lord, 2 Cor 5:6 The Lord said to the thief today you will be with me in paradise, so I view us abiding in heaven even in a sense now (we already spiritually dwell in it or Christ in us) and at the end of the 1000yrs the earth will pass away and we then descend from heaven as the lambs bride onto the new earth after the GWT Rev 21:2


    Many prophesies describe the Lord's people living there in peace and prosperity, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, and when we are attacked He will destroy those attackers. Ezekiel 38-39, Joel 2:20
    The Bible never tells us that we will leave this earth, it is our home; made for us and the holy Land is where His faithful people will live, at last being the people He always wanted there; His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16
    I admit if you read these verses in isolation, you could come to this conclusion, and I presume you can also see the opposite that reading it from my context it also becomes a valid conclusion so what about the other verses people have provided that expressly state that its Israel repenting and entering the land, and also having offspring and increasing in number over the 1000yrs? My goal is only to harmonise with all of scripture.

  10. #25
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    But read the context it says the kingdom of God will be taken from those who killed the Son, those who rejected the stone, and the kingdom will given to another nation bearing the fruits of it. Five verses later Matthew then refers to the kingdom as the kingdom of heaven. The church is referred to as a holy nation and the Lord also said my kingdom is not of this world. So I view us as heavenly body/nation, when we are absent from the body we are then present with the Lord, 2 Cor 5:6 The Lord said to the thief today you will be with me in paradise, so I view us abiding in heaven even in a sense now (we already spiritually dwell in it or Christ in us) and at the end of the 1000yrs the earth will pass away and we then descend from heaven as the lambs bride onto the new earth after the GWT Rev 21:2


    I admit if you read these verses in isolation, you could come to this conclusion, and I presume you can also see the opposite that reading it from my context it also becomes a valid conclusion so what about the other verses people have provided that expressly state that its Israel repenting and entering the land, and also having offspring and increasing in number over the 1000yrs? My goal is only to harmonise with all of scripture.
    I reject the idea of humans living in heaven because Jesus said that such an idea was impossible. John 3:13, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, Rev 5:10, +

    One of the best prophesies that confirms a Christian occupation of the holy Land is:

    Jeremiah 12:14-16 These are the Words of the Lord: I am against all those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land that My Israelite people will inherit. Take note; I will pluck them out from where they are now and also I will pluck out the House of Judah as well. After I have removed them, I will Return and have compassion on them, bringing them back to their heritage, if they will diligently learn the way of My people, to only swear by My Name: the Living God. But if they refuse, then I will completely remove and destroy them.

    This Bible passage is extremely informative, it gives the Lord’s plans for three groups of people.
    1/ The evil neighbours; The Islamic nations and entities surrounding Israel. Soon to be cleared out of the entire Middle East region by the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath by fire from the sun. Psalms 83:1-18, Isaiah 30:25-30, Isaiah 66:15-17, Amos 1:1-11, 2:1-5, +

    2/ The House of Judah, the Jewish people, currently inhabiting a part of the holy Land. The same fate as the neighbours, but a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27

    3/ My people; the true Israelites of God, every Christian believer; individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9-10

    The story described here, is clear and concise: The Lord is about to solve all the Middle East problems, to a similar degree as how He reset civilization in Noah’s time. All the holy land will be depopulated, Jeremiah 10:18, excepting a small remnant of Messianic Jews who will shelter in bunkers in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:4
    This will allow the gathering and settling of His righteous Christian people into their heritage where they will, at last be the people He always wanted there; a people who will be His witnesses and display His light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8

  11. #26
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Yes there is a difference the saints our saved through faith and selected nations aren’t only the faithful individuals within those nations are
    Many are called, but few are chosen. God's purpose was to bring entire nations into conformity with His Gospel. This never required that all individuals within these nations would prevail in their faith.

    But God's promises remain. He must obtain entire nations devoted to faith in Himself. Otherwise, His promises are empty.

    However, God did promise to Abraham many nations of faith. And they have come into being in the NT age through the establishment of Christian nations. The failure of these nations to prevail in their faith, just as Israel failed, does not negate the promise of God to restore these nations. At least that's how I interpret it.

    I do agree that the entry into faith of some nations are fulfilled only by the adherence of small remnants within those nations. But I believe the promises require that whole nations commit to faith as well, even if the majority do not always continue in their faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox
    I agree Israel was the first established Godly nation but Jesus established the church made up of both Jew and gentile and I don’t believe that it is a coincidence that Israel as it was came to an end shortly after
    No, it is no coincidence. The failure of national Israel meant that if the prototypical nation, Israel, failed and yet remains within the promises of God, so also all nations must be given opportunity, though they are unworthy.

  12. #27
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    Paul is always a great Bible writer to quote to get things stirred up (though he intended to settle matters)

    "The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in" (Romans 11:19)

    "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off..." (11:20)

    Are branches that are broken off still part of the olive tree?

    "For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee" (11:21)

    "if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again" (11:23)

    They can be grafted back in in they believe, but while in unbelief are they not separated from God?

    "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
    that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." (11:25).

    "For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief" (11:30)

    The facts that Paul is presenting say that the gentiles were separated from God until they were grafted in
    and when the Jews separated themselves from Christ, they were broken off until such time as they believe
    and are grafted back into the family of God.
    Unbelieving Jews were broken off from the People of God. But believing Jews--Christian Jews--have remained part of the tree of God's People. Israel is not yet restored, but believing, or converted, Jews remain a part of the Church, which is God's People. This does not negate the fact God will also restore the nation of Israel.

    So, I believe we're talking about two depictions of "God's People"--the Church and Israel. Both are part of God's plan. It's just that Israel, as a nation, has not yet been restored to being part of God's People. Only a small remnant of Israel has converted to Christ and is part of God's People, the Church.

    One day, all Israel will be part of the Church. And that's because all Israel will adopt a Christian Constitution, I believe. This will render them all, nominally, a part of the Church.

    This will enable them to be restored to being "God's People." But at this time they will not be God's *only* People. At that time they will join the Church as a collection of God's People from around the world.

  13. #28
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Unbelieving Jews were broken off from the People of God. But believing Jews--Christian Jews--have remained part of the tree of God's People. Israel is not yet restored, but believing, or converted, Jews remain a part of the Church, which is God's People. This does not negate the fact God will also restore the nation of Israel.

    So, I believe we're talking about two depictions of "God's People"--the Church and Israel. Both are part of God's plan. It's just that Israel, as a nation, has not yet been restored to being part of God's People. Only a small remnant of Israel has converted to Christ and is part of God's People, the Church.

    One day, all Israel will be part of the Church. And that's because all Israel will adopt a Christian Constitution, I believe. This will render them all, nominally, a part of the Church.

    This will enable them to be restored to being "God's People." But at this time they will not be God's *only* People. At that time they will join the Church as a collection of God's People from around the world.
    Are the promises of God to the (believing) people of Israel or to the (unbelieving) nation.
    And as there are promises, there are the curses of unbelief
    To focus on the unfulfilled promises and forget about the fulfilled curses
    would not be rightly dividing the word of truth

  14. #29
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    Are the promises of God to the (believing) people of Israel or to the (unbelieving) nation.
    And as there are promises, there are the curses of unbelief
    To focus on the unfulfilled promises and forget about the fulfilled curses
    would not be rightly dividing the word of truth
    Don't agree. It would be rightly dividing the word of truth to speak the whole truth, and not simply part of the truth. God made promises that affect not just believing Jews but also unbelieving Jews who in the future will convert to Christianity. And we should address all the word of God, including the part where God promises things concerning *nations*--not just individuals. God is as concerned about social structure as He is about individuals. He is concerned about how and where we live, just as He is concerned about our health. Without a Christian society, how can individual Christians be happy? Their happiness will be, in that circumstance, a mixed bag of inner spiritual joy and outward persecution.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Many are called, but few are chosen. God's purpose was to bring entire nations into conformity with His Gospel. This never required that all individuals within these nations would prevail in their faith.

    But God's promises remain. He must obtain entire nations devoted to faith in Himself. Otherwise, His promises are empty.

    However, God did promise to Abraham many nations of faith. And they have come into being in the NT age through the establishment of Christian nations. The failure of these nations to prevail in their faith, just as Israel failed, does not negate the promise of God to restore these nations. At least that's how I interpret it.

    I do agree that the entry into faith of some nations are fulfilled only by the adherence of small remnants within those nations. But I believe the promises require that whole nations commit to faith as well, even if the majority do not always continue in their faith.



    No, it is no coincidence. The failure of national Israel meant that if the prototypical nation, Israel, failed and yet remains within the promises of God, so also all nations must be given opportunity, though they are unworthy.
    We have to ask ourselves are some events from God or man?

    For example about 10-15 percent of the Palestinians kicked out of their land in 1948 were Christians. Thus was it Gods will To have Christ rejecting Jews kick Christian Palestinians out of there houses and close down their Christian churches and remove them from their land back in 1948or mans will?

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