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Thread: supercessionism or fulfillment?

  1. #31
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    We have to ask ourselves are some events from God or man?

    For example about 10-15 percent of the Palestinians kicked out of their land in 1948 were Christians. Thus was it Gods will To have Christ rejecting Jews kick Christian Palestinians out of there houses and close down their Christian churches and remove them from their land back in 1948or mans will?
    In context, the Palestinians, as a whole, pursued the course of opposition to the idea of a Jewish State. Many of them, when learning of an external Arab conspiracy, abandoned Israel, thinking they would be part of a future Arab victory. Now, instead of joining those Arab nations, they've chosen to remain in camps, protesting perennially their loss of land in Israel, when they actually *deserted* their land!

    There are always victims of circumstance, or unfortunate casualties, in such a battle. Christians are often victims of their own nation's sins and judgments. Such was the early Jewish church, which Jesus said would suffer as part of the "Jewish tribulation." They, along with their unbelieving brethren, were removed from their land, and lost their society. This has no bearing on the fact that God wished to restore the land to Israel, following centuries of wandering.

    The restoration of Israel is a restoration of undeserving, unbelieving Jews. We see a precedent for that in Ezekiel 36.22. This does not mean that all Jews will participate in the future spiritual restoration. But the material restoration of the nation is, of course, necessary if there is to be a future spiritual restoration. At that time, those Jews who persist in opposing Christ will be judged and destroyed, while the survivors will be restored into a full nation, and will participate in a nation-wide Christian revival.

  2. #32
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    The restoration of Israel is a restoration of undeserving, unbelieving Jews. We see a precedent for that in Ezekiel 36.22. This does not mean that all Jews will participate in the future spiritual restoration. But the material restoration of the nation is, of course, necessary if there is to be a future spiritual restoration. At that time, those Jews who persist in opposing Christ will be judged and destroyed, while the survivors will be restored into a full nation, and will participate in a nation-wide Christian revival.
    You miss out the many prophesies that tell of the great rejoining of Judah and Israel. Judah; the Jewish people and Israel; now all the faithful Christian peoples.

    The new nation that will soon be established in all of the holy Land, will be populated by only those who have proved their faith in God and trusted in His protection.
    They will rejoin as per Ezekiel 37 and go to the holy land as per Jeremiah 50:3-4, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    The restoration of Israel is a restoration of undeserving, unbelieving Jews. We see a precedent for that in Ezekiel 36.22. This does not mean that all Jews will participate in the future spiritual restoration. But the material restoration of the nation is, of course, necessary if there is to be a future spiritual restoration. At that time, those Jews who persist in opposing Christ will be judged and destroyed, while the survivors will be restored into a full nation, and will participate in a nation-wide Christian revival.
    You miss out the many prophesies that tell of the great rejoining of Judah and Israel. Judah; the Jewish people and Israel; now all the faithful Christian peoples.

    The new nation that will soon be established in all of the holy Land, will be populated by only those who have proved their faith in God and trusted in His protection.
    They will rejoin as per Ezekiel 37 and go to the holy land as per Jeremiah 50:3-4, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    The restoration of Israel is a restoration of undeserving, unbelieving Jews. We see a precedent for that in Ezekiel 36.22. This does not mean that all Jews will participate in the future spiritual restoration. But the material restoration of the nation is, of course, necessary if there is to be a future spiritual restoration. At that time, those Jews who persist in opposing Christ will be judged and destroyed, while the survivors will be restored into a full nation, and will participate in a nation-wide Christian revival.
    You miss out the many prophesies that tell of the great rejoining of Judah and Israel. Judah; the Jewish people and Israel; now all the faithful Christian peoples.

    The new nation that will soon be established in all of the holy Land, will be populated by only those who have proved their faith in God and trusted in His protection.
    They will rejoin as per Ezekiel 37 and go to the holy land as per Jeremiah 50:3-4, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

  3. #33
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    You miss out the many prophesies that tell of the great rejoining of Judah and Israel. Judah; the Jewish people and Israel; now all the faithful Christian peoples.

    The new nation that will soon be established in all of the holy Land, will be populated by only those who have proved their faith in God and trusted in His protection.
    They will rejoin as per Ezekiel 37 and go to the holy land as per Jeremiah 50:3-4, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26
    None of those passages have to be interpreted the way you do. In fact, they do not even infer this kind of interpretation. Normally, both Judah and Israel refer to Israel, the Jewish People. They were just two divisions of a single nation, temporarily formed into two kingdoms.

    The division of Israel into two kingdoms ended a very long time ago. There is no indication such a healing is required in the future. And there is no indication Israel is the universal Church. If you're going to cite Bible passages as "proofs," they must actually prove what you're claiming. They don't.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Don't agree. It would be rightly dividing the word of truth to speak the whole truth, and not simply part of the truth. God made promises that affect not just believing Jews but also unbelieving Jews who in the future will convert to Christianity. And we should address all the word of God, including the part where God promises things concerning *nations*--not just individuals. God is as concerned about social structure as He is about individuals. He is concerned about how and where we live, just as He is concerned about our health. Without a Christian society, how can individual Christians be happy? Their happiness will be, in that circumstance, a mixed bag of inner spiritual joy and outward persecution.
    As Paul stated, the Jews cut themselves off from the natural olive tree
    and as long as they are in their state of unbelief they remain cut off.

    As God promised blessings to Israel, He warned of curses if they rebelled:

    "And it shall come to pass,
    [that] as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good,
    and to multiply you;
    so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you,
    and to bring you to nought;
    and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it
    ."
    Deuteronomy 28:63

    In their current unbelieving state, how can anyone believe that Israel should expect special blessings from God?
    God has promised blessings and curses if the blessings are rejected.
    To claim that God is bound by His promised blessings and not bound by His curses is a presumptuous error.

    To teach that Israel is still highly favored in God's sight is a popular lie
    that turns God's word on its head.

    Isa 5:20 "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light,
    and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

    If Israel repents and turns back to God
    they can be grafted back into the tree of God's family.
    But until they repent of their rejection of Jesus,
    they are under the curse of God.
    The word of God bears repeating:

    "And it shall come to pass,
    [that] as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good,
    and to multiply you;
    so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you,
    and to bring you to nought;
    and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it
    ."
    Deuteronomy 28:63

  5. #35
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    As Paul stated, the Jews cut themselves off from the natural olive tree
    and as long as they are in their state of unbelief they remain cut off.

    As God promised blessings to Israel, He warned of curses if they rebelled:

    "And it shall come to pass,
    [that] as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good,
    and to multiply you;
    so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you,
    and to bring you to nought;
    and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it
    ."
    Deuteronomy 28:63

    In their current unbelieving state, how can anyone believe that Israel should expect special blessings from God?
    God has promised blessings and curses if the blessings are rejected.
    To claim that God is bound by His promised blessings and not bound by His curses is a presumptuous error.

    To teach that Israel is still highly favored in God's sight is a popular lie
    that turns God's word on its head.

    Isa 5:20 "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light,
    and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

    If Israel repents and turns back to God
    they can be grafted back into the tree of God's family.
    But until they repent of their rejection of Jesus,
    they are under the curse of God.
    The word of God bears repeating:

    "And it shall come to pass,
    [that] as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good,
    and to multiply you;
    so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you,
    and to bring you to nought;
    and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it
    ."
    Deuteronomy 28:63
    I would never disagree with you that...
    1) Israel's majority is presently unbelieving and under a curse, and that
    2) Israel should not expect to be blessed as long as they remain in their sin.

    On the other hand, there is plenty of indication that those in Israel who do not believe may yet be restored, if they repent, and that a remnant of Israel will repent and be blessed with a future restoration. The remnant in Israel that repents will, according to prophecy, be restored as a full nation, enabling Israel to be fulfilled as a Christian nation. This is the "Age to Come" promised for ages by the biblical Prophets.

    Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
    7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

    Acts 3.19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

    Rom 11.11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

  6. #36
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    None of those passages have to be interpreted the way you do. In fact, they do not even infer this kind of interpretation. Normally, both Judah and Israel refer to Israel, the Jewish People. They were just two divisions of a single nation, temporarily formed into two kingdoms.

    The division of Israel into two kingdoms ended a very long time ago. There is no indication such a healing is required in the future. And there is no indication Israel is the universal Church. If you're going to cite Bible passages as "proofs," they must actually prove what you're claiming. They don't.
    Sorry for the multiple posts. Note to self: Use Go Advanced!

    We surely read Bible verses differently, we remain quite opposed in our understanding of what God Plan is and how it will unfold for us in these end times. ''
    I see our major area of difference as the 'who is Israel' question. You say 'the Jewish State of Israel', I say 'the Christian people'.
    I could trot out historical, Biblical and logical proofs of my belief, but I have done that before, many times without success with you. I do have success with quite a few others, who have never had the facts or properly considered who the true Israel is.

    But the Bible prophets are our guide and informers. They consistently predict disaster and punishment for Judah and redemption and restoration for the House of Israel. That is how it has been and will continue to be.
    We await the multiple prophesied great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, that will change the world and pave the way for all of God's faithful people to inherit all of the holy Land. Isaiah 49:8, Psalms 37:29, Psalms 107:1-3, Isaiah 31:2-3 & 28

  7. #37
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Sorry for the multiple posts. Note to self: Use Go Advanced!

    We surely read Bible verses differently, we remain quite opposed in our understanding of what God Plan is and how it will unfold for us in these end times. ''
    I see our major area of difference as the 'who is Israel' question. You say 'the Jewish State of Israel', I say 'the Christian people'.
    I could trot out historical, Biblical and logical proofs of my belief, but I have done that before, many times without success with you. I do have success with quite a few others, who have never had the facts or properly considered who the true Israel is.

    But the Bible prophets are our guide and informers. They consistently predict disaster and punishment for Judah and redemption and restoration for the House of Israel. That is how it has been and will continue to be.
    We await the multiple prophesied great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, that will change the world and pave the way for all of God's faithful people to inherit all of the holy Land. Isaiah 49:8, Psalms 37:29, Psalms 107:1-3, Isaiah 31:2-3 & 28
    Yes, we don't see eye to eye on this one issue. I hope and pray we agree on some of the more critical issues...

  8. #38

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I reject the idea of humans living in heaven because Jesus said that such an idea was impossible. John 3:13, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, Rev 5:10, +
    I knew you were going to present this view, Which I cant accept for these reasons, Firstly I just disagree with your usage of the verses.

    The verse you use to show that no one has ascended to heaven is before the cross, this happens before any payment for sin has been made and I totally agree with that verse, the verses that show the Pharisees in unbelief will seek Jesus but will not find him, for they cannot go where he goes, I don't think its in context to your argument for its not referencing those who have had their sins wiped out, but again I agree with the verse.

    Secondly scripture tells us humans are indeed in heaven before the 1000yr period begins. For in the fathers house are many room/mansions, and the Lord goes to prepare a place for us that we may be where He is. Supported by...

    John 13:36 John 17:24 2Cor 5:6-9 Phil 1:23 acts 7:59 Rev 6:9



    One of the best prophesies that confirms a Christian occupation of the holy Land is:

    Jeremiah 12:14-16 These are the Words of the Lord: I am against all those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land that My Israelite people will inherit. Take note; I will pluck them out from where they are now and also I will pluck out the House of Judah as well. After I have removed them, I will Return and have compassion on them, bringing them back to their heritage, if they will diligently learn the way of My people, to only swear by My Name: the Living God. But if they refuse, then I will completely remove and destroy them.

    This Bible passage is extremely informative, it gives the Lord’s plans for three groups of people.
    1/ The evil neighbours; The Islamic nations and entities surrounding Israel. Soon to be cleared out of the entire Middle East region by the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath by fire from the sun. Psalms 83:1-18, Isaiah 30:25-30, Isaiah 66:15-17, Amos 1:1-11, 2:1-5, +

    2/ The House of Judah, the Jewish people, currently inhabiting a part of the holy Land. The same fate as the neighbours, but a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27

    3/ My people; the true Israelites of God, every Christian believer; individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9-10

    The story described here, is clear and concise: The Lord is about to solve all the Middle East problems, to a similar degree as how He reset civilization in Noah’s time. All the holy land will be depopulated, Jeremiah 10:18, excepting a small remnant of Messianic Jews who will shelter in bunkers in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:4
    This will allow the gathering and settling of His righteous Christian people into their heritage where they will, at last be the people He always wanted there; a people who will be His witnesses and display His light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8
    The verses though are talking about Israel so the only way you can make these verses to refer to us, and you do do this, is by making us Israel, yet the context of Israel entering the land is upon repentance, Christians are not on earth in unbelief that they need to repent at the Lords coming, but Israel is. We are not broken off branches in unbelief that need to be re-grafted back in, but Israel is. We are not a nation in backsliding that has forgotten who brought us up out of Egypt Who God will heal at his coming, but Israel is.

    I can see how you apply this to Christians, yet there is so many contradictions and unanswered questions from this point of view like Egypt/Edom will become a Christian nation, yet be separate from Israel how does that work if they should be in the promised land?

  9. #39
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    We need to remember that a lot of Gods promises had conditions

    Exodus 19:1-6

    On the first day of the third month after the Israelites left Egypt—on that very day—they came to the Desert of Sinai. 2 After they set out from Rephidim, they entered the Desert of Sinai, and Israel camped there in the desert in front of the mountain.

    3 Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you[a] will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

    We the church who obey and keep to Gods commands are now that kingdom and priest

    Revelation 59-10
    9 And they sang a new song, saying:

    “You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
    because you were slain,
    and with your blood you purchased for God
    persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
    10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
    and they will reign[b] on the earth.”

  10. #40
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    I knew you were going to present this view, Which I cant accept for these reasons, Firstly I just disagree with your usage of the verses.

    The verse you use to show that no one has ascended to heaven is before the cross, this happens before any payment for sin has been made and I totally agree with that verse, the verses that show the Pharisees in unbelief will seek Jesus but will not find him, for they cannot go where he goes, I don't think its in context to your argument for its not referencing those who have had their sins wiped out, but again I agree with the verse.

    Secondly scripture tells us humans are indeed in heaven before the 1000yr period begins. For in the fathers house are many room/mansions, and the Lord goes to prepare a place for us that we may be where He is. Supported by...

    John 13:36 John 17:24 2Cor 5:6-9 Phil 1:23 acts 7:59 Rev 6:9



    The verses though are talking about Israel so the only way you can make these verses to refer to us, and you do do this, is by making us Israel, yet the context of Israel entering the land is upon repentance, Christians are not on earth in unbelief that they need to repent at the Lords coming, but Israel is. We are not broken off branches in unbelief that need to be re-grafted back in, but Israel is. We are not a nation in backsliding that has forgotten who brought us up out of Egypt Who God will heal at his coming, but Israel is.

    I can see how you apply this to Christians, yet there is so many contradictions and unanswered questions from this point of view like Egypt/Edom will become a Christian nation, yet be separate from Israel how does that work if they should be in the promised land?
    None of your verses prove that the Church is in heaven. They simply do not say that at all.
    We see in Daniel 7:23 and Revelation 13:7, that the holy people of God - and there is only ONE people of God, are in the holy Land when the Anti-Christ leader of the world government conquers them. Revelation 12:6-17 is confirmation of this and we see how the Christians are divided into 2 groups, one taken to safety, the other must remain. Paralleled by Daniel 11:32-35

    The issue of who is the true Israel has been well worked over on this forum. Some want to believe that they are only the Jewish people, this is so that they can go to live in heaven while the Jews face trials and testing on earth. This idea is not found in the Bible.

    But you are right, they are the redeemed, restored and forgiven people, which makes them the descendants of Jacob, the original Israel.
    The Bible says in many prophesies that the House of Israel will become great peoples and become innumerable. Then we see that Jesus came only to save the House of Israel and if people want to think that the Jews represent them, then Jesus' mission failed.

    Jesus said that the Kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to a nation [people group] the bears the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43 Who are those people? They can only be Christians, who are the Overcomers for God, as Jacob was, literally the Israelites of God.
    WE Christians are the inheritors of God's promises to His people, thru Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:20, Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:26-29

  11. #41
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I would never disagree with you that...
    1) Israel's majority is presently unbelieving and under a curse, and that
    2) Israel should not expect to be blessed as long as they remain in their sin.

    On the other hand, there is plenty of indication that those in Israel who do not believe may yet be restored, if they repent, and that a remnant of Israel will repent and be blessed with a future restoration. The remnant in Israel that repents will, according to prophecy, be restored as a full nation, enabling Israel to be fulfilled as a Christian nation. This is the "Age to Come" promised for ages by the biblical Prophets.

    Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
    7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

    Acts 3.19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

    Rom 11.11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
    It is nice to find some common ground.
    I agree with the Scriptures that you mentioned.
    But they say what one might imply from the context.

    The basic question: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    The blessings and the curses that were promised to Israel came upon them in Daniel day (cf Daniel 9 & 10)
    Daniel repented and confessed the sins of the nation and pleaded that God would forgive them.

    After the Babylonian captivity, it could be said that Israel was forgiven and cured of its idolatry

    When Israel rejected Christ, the Messiah, they were cut off as God's chosen people.
    There is the question “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

    But where is it recorded in Scripture that Israel has repented of their rejection of Christ
    that they can claim the promises? That the kingdom has been restored by God?

    As in the Babylonian rebellion,
    their sin led to horrible consequences and their restoration followed their repentance.

    Where is the record of their repentance of their rejection of Christ
    that must occur before the curses can be lifted and the blessings restored?

    Since the nation of Israel rejected their Messiah, and remains in Christless apostacy,
    they must of consequence still be under the curses of God that we discussed.

    For the blessings of God to be restored to Israel (from the word of God, they must have confessed and repented of their sin).
    The issue is not "they will repent"
    The curses are in force until "they have repented"
    When did Israel "receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth”?

    If as a people they have repented, please show the Scriptural evidence.

    It is a horrible thing for someone to think that they are going to get an inheritance
    after they know that they have been disowned.

    It is fraudulent to go into debt and convince lenders to extend lines of credit
    based on promises of wealth untold (when the will gets settled and the inheritance be distributed)
    all the while knowing that the borrower has been disowned and never reconciled and is not going to get a dime.

    "Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
    1 ¶ And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,
    2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus
    the resurrection from the dead.
    3 And they laid hands on them, and put [them] in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
    4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand...
    10 "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth,
    whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
    11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner...
    17 "But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name."
    Acts 3:26-4:17

    Mt 10:33 "But whosoever shall deny Me [Jesus] before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven."

    While Israel is denying Christ, He is denying Israel before His Father which is in heaven!

    Pr 16:25 "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death."

  12. #42

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    We need to remember that a lot of Gods promises had conditions

    Exodus 19:1-6

    On the first day of the third month after the Israelites left Egypt—on that very day—they came to the Desert of Sinai. 2 After they set out from Rephidim, they entered the Desert of Sinai, and Israel camped there in the desert in front of the mountain.

    3 Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you[a] will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

    We the church who obey and keep to Gods commands are now that kingdom and priest
    Is this really why Israel will not receive Gods promises Because they did not fully and perfectly obey God and keep his commandments, and ill explain why they could not, because and this includes Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah and John the Baptist they are all sinners and are incapable of following God fully.

    And therefore we who obey God fully/perfectly can rest assured that by our ability to walk in obedience that the blessings have now been transferred to us and we of all people are now Gods treasured possession.

    I feel a little sorry for Israel if only there was a way around the law and for God to not be so rigid and inflexible, alas.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    It is nice to find some common ground.
    I agree with the Scriptures that you mentioned.
    But they say what one might imply from the context.

    The basic question: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    The blessings and the curses that were promised to Israel came upon them in Daniel day (cf Daniel 9 & 10)
    Daniel repented and confessed the sins of the nation and pleaded that God would forgive them.

    After the Babylonian captivity, it could be said that Israel was forgiven and cured of its idolatry

    When Israel rejected Christ, the Messiah, they were cut off as God's chosen people.
    There is the question “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

    But where is it recorded in Scripture that Israel has repented of their rejection of Christ
    that they can claim the promises? That the kingdom has been restored by God?

    As in the Babylonian rebellion,
    their sin led to horrible consequences and their restoration followed their repentance.

    Where is the record of their repentance of their rejection of Christ
    that must occur before the curses can be lifted and the blessings restored?

    Since the nation of Israel rejected their Messiah, and remains in Christless apostacy,
    they must of consequence still be under the curses of God that we discussed.

    For the blessings of God to be restored to Israel (from the word of God, they must have confessed and repented of their sin).
    The issue is not "they will repent"
    The curses are in force until "they have repented"
    When did Israel "receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth”?

    If as a people they have repented, please show the Scriptural evidence.

    It is a horrible thing for someone to think that they are going to get an inheritance
    after they know that they have been disowned.

    It is fraudulent to go into debt and convince lenders to extend lines of credit
    based on promises of wealth untold (when the will gets settled and the inheritance be distributed)
    all the while knowing that the borrower has been disowned and never reconciled and is not going to get a dime.

    "Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
    1 ¶ And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,
    2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus
    the resurrection from the dead.
    3 And they laid hands on them, and put [them] in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
    4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand...
    10 "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth,
    whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
    11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner...
    17 "But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name."
    Acts 3:26-4:17

    Mt 10:33 "But whosoever shall deny Me [Jesus] before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven."

    While Israel is denying Christ, He is denying Israel before His Father which is in heaven!

    Pr 16:25 "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death."
    I believe there must be a 2 step process.
    1) God approaches sinful Israel in their undeserving state to offer them restoration.
    2) Israel accepts the need for their repentance, and thus qualifies for restoration.

    I believe Israel goes through this constant cycle of growth and self-destruction. It is the prototypical nation, and we see Christian nations go through the same process.

    Israel was called, as a nation, to serve God as a full nation. But over time sin multiplied and the nation apostacized. This led the nation to fall, with only a remnant of faithful remaining.

    This was the process immortalized in OT Scriptures, as described in the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities. And it is the same thing that happened at the 1st Coming of Messiah. The majority rejected Jesus, and only a small remnant embraced him.

    This does not mean the cycles have ended in failure. It only means that today, in the NT period, the cycle of judgment is at its worst in all of history. We call this current punishment of Israel the "Great Tribulation." It is the longest period of Jewish "captivity" in history. It is the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age.

    But this does not, according to Paul, mean that Israel has been permanently cast aside. The remnant of Christians are the faithful. And eventually this portion of faith will be reconstituted into a whole nation.

    What remains to be done is Christ's judgment of the majority in Israel. But this cannot happen until God deems it is time to do so. And He has not done so thus far because He does not wish to destroy people in their "captivity." He wishes to judge them only when they are set free to make their own choices.

    This also gives opportunity for undeserving pagans, in other nations, to survive until God reaches out in mercy to them. God does not wish to destroy people in their ignorance. Rather, He first would show them their opportunity to be delivered. Only after making conscious choices will God judge them fully.

  14. #44
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Is this really why Israel will not receive Gods promises Because they did not fully and perfectly obey God and keep his commandments, and ill explain why they could not, because and this includes Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah and John the Baptist they are all sinners and are incapable of following God fully.

    And therefore we who obey God fully/perfectly can rest assured that by our ability to walk in obedience that the blessings have now been transferred to us and we of all people are now Gods treasured possession.

    I feel a little sorry for Israel if only there was a way around the law and for God to not be so rigid and inflexible, alas.
    We mustn't confuse the issue for a nation with that for an individual.

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Is this really why Israel will not receive Gods promises Because they did not fully and perfectly obey God and keep his commandments, and ill explain why they could not, because and this includes Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah and John the Baptist they are all sinners and are incapable of following God fully.

    And therefore we who obey God fully/perfectly can rest assured that by our ability to walk in obedience that the blessings have now been transferred to us and we of all people are now Gods treasured possession.

    I feel a little sorry for Israel if only there was a way around the law and for God to not be so rigid and inflexible, alas.
    We mustn't confuse the issue for a nation with that for an individual.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I believe there must be a 2 step process.
    1) God approaches sinful Israel in their undeserving state to offer them restoration.
    2) Israel accepts the need for their repentance, and thus qualifies for restoration.
    This sounds reasonable apart from the fluff that followed.

    So nail it down, if you please.
    When did Israel (the branches that were broken off in unbelief) meet the first condition & accept God's offer to be grafted back in?
    Or [2] when did those that rejected God's salvation through Christ "accept the need for their repentance, and thus qualifies for restoration"?

    There is no name given under heaven by which we MUST be saved other than Jesus.

    You gave the 2 parameters above. And I wish that Israel would have met either or both.

    We would do better to recognize that Israel is LOST without Christ
    and instead of trying to grandfather back into the family of God (while they are in unbelief)
    Love Israel enough to recognize that they are no God's chosen people
    and woe them back to God so that they could repent and reform and become what God longs for them to be!

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