Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 81

Thread: supercessionism or fulfillment?

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    near Chattanooga
    Posts
    193

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    My last two lines had typos and the edit function does not work well (for me) it just hangs up.

    Love Israel enough to recognize that they are not God's chosen people
    and woo them back to God so that they can repent and reform and become what God longs for them to be!

    But do not give them a false hope that will be their doom.

  2. #47

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    We mustn't confuse the issue for a nation with that for an individual.


    We mustn't confuse the issue for a nation with that for an individual.
    I should never use sarcasm in the written format, even if its understood it more than likely comes across as bad. All Im trying to say is we are all sinners incapable of following God especially me, I would have failed if I was an Israelite, and I fail as a Christian, I sin everyday, yet God does not reckon it against me, What a great and wonderful God is He.

    Marty is saying because Israel did not do this

    5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession

    That they no longer are heirs to the promises for they were conditional, Yet because they are men it was impossible for them to keep the covenant and God knew and foresaw this and already had a provision or way planned where they can do this in the future as individuals, salvation always was and always will be an individuals choice to by faith follow God. In saying that there will be some individuals from Israel who will repent and accept Jesus as the Messiah and Israel will begin as a believing nation of people who will build a temple.

    In another sense I agree with the replacement guys but only in the fact we have spiritually received the promises for we are already a treasured possession called out of all the nations, we are already citizens in the kingdom for it came upon us at Christ's first advent, and we are foreigners/or ambassadors in this earth, again I differ with where our home is, what I long and hope for, for I believe its in the heavenly Jerusalem which comes down to the new earth after the 1000yr period we will on the whole new earth and heavens have sinless eternal bodies have... and well I can only imagine from here on in.

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pitt Meadows b.c.
    Posts
    5,196
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Is this really why Israel will not receive Gods promises Because they did not fully and perfectly obey God and keep his commandments, and ill explain why they could not, because and this includes Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah and John the Baptist they are all sinners and are incapable of following God fully.

    And therefore we who obey God fully/perfectly can rest assured that by our ability to walk in obedience that the blessings have now been transferred to us and we of all people are now Gods treasured possession.

    I feel a little sorry for Israel if only there was a way around the law and for God to not be so rigid and inflexible, alas.
    FHG is right you are confusing individuals with a nation

    No person can fully obey God every day because we are human and we are imperfect. God knew this and that is why He made a way for them through sin sacrifices. The problem though is that Israel as a nation many times walked away from God and God punished

    them repeatedly even to the point of the Babylonian exile. Even after this God restored them until they rejected and killed His son their Messiah. So it wasn’t about individual sin but the national sin and going after other gods as they shouted we have no king but Cesar

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,629

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    This sounds reasonable apart from the fluff that followed.

    So nail it down, if you please.
    When did Israel (the branches that were broken off in unbelief) meet the first condition & accept God's offer to be grafted back in?
    Or [2] when did those that rejected God's salvation through Christ "accept the need for their repentance, and thus qualifies for restoration"?
    I did nail it down, but you apparently aren't understanding the steps.
    1) God reaches down to Israel in their ignorance, at a time when they are as yet unworthy. This is God's grace.
    2) Once God reaches a remnant in Israel, they repent, and receive God's forgiveness and spiritual blessings.
    3) Divine judgment takes place, destroying the unbelieving in Israel, and sparing those who choose to repent.
    4) Those who repent are qualified to participate in the national restoration to follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    There is no name given under heaven by which we MUST be saved other than Jesus.

    You gave the 2 parameters above. And I wish that Israel would have met either or both.

    We would do better to recognize that Israel is LOST without Christ
    and instead of trying to grandfather back into the family of God (while they are in unbelief)
    Love Israel enough to recognize that they are no God's chosen people
    and woe them back to God so that they could repent and reform and become what God longs for them to be!
    God has determined, in advance, that Abraham will have a nation of faith. This is without regard for the fact the majority in Israel would go apostate at times. God will not cease to reach out to Israel, because of this promise and also because there is always a remnant willing to receive His grace and repent.

    Ultimately, God's judgment will remove the impediment of the majority towards the nation becoming a Christian nation. That time is put off as long as opportunity exists for other nations to have the same chance. Israel was the prototypical example of God's grace towards nations. Until every nation is reached with the gospel, Israel will not be restored, because the majority in Israel have turned against Christ's grace. I hope you understand?

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pitt Meadows b.c.
    Posts
    5,196
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    My last two lines had typos and the edit function does not work well (for me) it just hangs up.

    Love Israel enough to recognize that they are not God's chosen people
    and woo them back to God so that they can repent and reform and become what God longs for them to be!

    But do not give them a false hope that will be their doom.
    Agreed and it has been for so

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    My last two lines had typos and the edit function does not work well (for me) it just hangs up.

    Love Israel enough to recognize that they are not God's chosen people
    and woo them back to God so that they can repent and reform and become what God longs for them to be!

    But do not give them a false hope that will be their doom.
    Agreed and it has been for so

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    near Chattanooga
    Posts
    193

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I did nail it down, but you apparently aren't understanding the steps.
    1) God reaches down to Israel in their ignorance, at a time when they are as yet unworthy. This is God's grace.
    2) Once God reaches a remnant in Israel, they repent, and receive God's forgiveness and spiritual blessings.
    3) Divine judgment takes place, destroying the unbelieving in Israel, and sparing those who choose to repent.
    4) Those who repent are qualified to participate in the national restoration to follow.



    God has determined, in advance, that Abraham will have a nation of faith. This is without regard for the fact the majority in Israel would go apostate at times. God will not cease to reach out to Israel, because of this promise and also because there is always a remnant willing to receive His grace and repent.

    Ultimately, God's judgment will remove the impediment of the majority towards the nation becoming a Christian nation. That time is put off as long as opportunity exists for other nations to have the same chance. Israel was the prototypical example of God's grace towards nations. Until every nation is reached with the gospel, Israel will not be restored, because the majority in Israel have turned against Christ's grace. I hope you understand?
    I hear the cry Grace! Grace! in defiance of the word of God:

    Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
    Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
    Titus 1:13-14

    Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
    John 17:17

    "And it shall come to pass,
    [that] as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good,
    and to multiply you;
    so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you,
    and to bring you to nought;
    and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
    "
    Deuteronomy 28:63

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I did nail it down, but you apparently aren't understanding the steps.
    1) God reaches down to Israel in their ignorance, at a time when they are as yet unworthy. This is God's grace.
    2) Once God reaches a remnant in Israel, they repent, and receive God's forgiveness and spiritual blessings.
    3) Divine judgment takes place, destroying the unbelieving in Israel, and sparing those who choose to repent.
    4) Those who repent are qualified to participate in the national restoration to follow.



    God has determined, in advance, that Abraham will have a nation of faith. This is without regard for the fact the majority in Israel would go apostate at times. God will not cease to reach out to Israel, because of this promise and also because there is always a remnant willing to receive His grace and repent.

    Ultimately, God's judgment will remove the impediment of the majority towards the nation becoming a Christian nation. That time is put off as long as opportunity exists for other nations to have the same chance. Israel was the prototypical example of God's grace towards nations. Until every nation is reached with the gospel, Israel will not be restored, because the majority in Israel have turned against Christ's grace. I hope you understand?
    I hear the cry Grace! Grace! in defiance of the word of God:

    Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
    Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
    Titus 1:13-14

    Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
    John 17:17

    "And it shall come to pass,
    [that] as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good,
    and to multiply you;
    so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you,
    and to bring you to nought;
    and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
    "
    Deuteronomy 28:63

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,629

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    I hear the cry Grace! Grace! in defiance of the word of God:

    Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
    Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
    Titus 1:13-14

    Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
    John 17:17

    "And it shall come to pass,
    [that] as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good,
    and to multiply you;
    so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you,
    and to bring you to nought;
    and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
    "
    Deuteronomy 28:63
    That is nonsensical. The fact God judges sinners does not invalidate God's grace. That's the whole process I'm arguing for, that God delays judgment in order to show grace for nations until individuals have been given an opportunity to respond to that grace.

    That is the gospel. Judgment will come once remnants have been established on behalf of those nations. Then nations can be recovered from those who choose to reject the gospel. That recovery will require God's judgment of those who are resistant, and will reward those who repent.

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    10,001
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    I should never use sarcasm in the written format, even if its understood it more than likely comes across as bad. All Im trying to say is we are all sinners incapable of following God especially me, I would have failed if I was an Israelite, and I fail as a Christian, I sin everyday, yet God does not reckon it against me, What a great and wonderful God is He.
    I wasn't using sarcasm. Not sure why you thought I was.

    Marty is saying because Israel did not do this
    5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession
    That they no longer are heirs to the promises for they were conditional, Yet because they are men it was impossible for them to keep the covenant and God knew and foresaw this and already had a provision or way planned where they can do this in the future as individuals, salvation always was and always will be an individuals choice to by faith follow God. In saying that there will be some individuals from Israel who will repent and accept Jesus as the Messiah and Israel will begin as a believing nation of people who will build a temple.
    OK, the promises were NOT conditional, however in order to receive the promises was conditional.
    To put that another way is to use an example.
    I have a child.
    My child will inherit everything I have.
    The timing of the inheritance being given though is dependent on other things.
    In the meantime, whilst my child is awaiting the inheritance, they live in my house and eat my food, but need to keep to my rules.
    If they break my rules then there are consequences, from being grounded, to losing their room in my house.
    If they repent of their wrong doing and apologise and agree to keep to my rules then they will be let back in the house.

  9. #54

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post

    No person can fully obey God every day because we are human and we are imperfect. God knew this and that is why He made a way for them through sin sacrifices. The problem though is that Israel as a nation many times walked away from God and God punished them repeatedly even to the point of the Babylonian exile.
    Agree accept maybe for the sin sacrifices, unless your meaning Christ as the sin sacrifice then agree with all this.


    Even after this God restored them until they rejected and killed His son their Messiah. So it wasn’t about individual sin but the national sin and going after other gods as they shouted we have no king but Cesar
    As soon as I read this, the question arises, Do you think when Israel rejected Christ as their messiah, that's it for them, is their no more chances for the nation to accept Christ?

  10. #55

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I wasn't using sarcasm. Not sure why you thought I was.
    I wasn't meaning you bro, I was meaning me.


    OK, the promises were NOT conditional, however in order to receive the promises was conditional.
    To put that another way is to use an example.
    I have a child.
    My child will inherit everything I have.
    The timing of the inheritance being given though is dependent on other things.
    In the meantime, whilst my child is awaiting the inheritance, they live in my house and eat my food, but need to keep to my rules.
    If they break my rules then there are consequences, from being grounded, to losing their room in my house.
    If they repent of their wrong doing and apologise and agree to keep to my rules then they will be let back in the house.
    Ok and I sort of would apply this for both Israel and us?

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pitt Meadows b.c.
    Posts
    5,196
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Agree accept maybe for the sin sacrifices, unless your meaning Christ as the sin sacrifice then agree with all this.


    As soon as I read this, the question arises, Do you think when Israel rejected Christ as their messiah, that's it for them, is their no more chances for the nation to accept Christ?
    Its individuals now as God looks at the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Agree accept maybe for the sin sacrifices, unless your meaning Christ as the sin sacrifice then agree with all this.


    As soon as I read this, the question arises, Do you think when Israel rejected Christ as their messiah, that's it for them, is their no more chances for the nation to accept Christ?
    Its individuals now as God looks at the heart

  12. #57

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Its individuals now as God looks at the heart



    Its individuals now as God looks at the heart
    Ok but what about the future, at Christs second coming, does God deal with the Nation Israel at all, is it a day of trouble, esp for Israel?

    We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask now, and see, whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins like a woman in labor, and all faces turned pale? Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it; and it is the time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. Jer 30:5-7

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pitt Meadows b.c.
    Posts
    5,196
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Ok but what about the future, at Christs second coming, does God deal with the Nation Israel at all, is it a day of trouble, esp for Israel?

    We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask now, and see, whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins like a woman in labor, and all faces turned pale? Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it; and it is the time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. Jer 30:5-7
    No i don’t believe so and I also see Jeremiah 30 as in the past

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Ok but what about the future, at Christs second coming, does God deal with the Nation Israel at all, is it a day of trouble, esp for Israel?

    We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask now, and see, whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins like a woman in labor, and all faces turned pale? Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it; and it is the time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. Jer 30:5-7
    No i don’t believe so and I also see Jeremiah 30 as in the past

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    10,001
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    I wasn't meaning you bro, I was meaning me.
    Ok and I sort of would apply this for both Israel and us?
    I sort of would too, as BOTH Israel and ourselves receive the inheritance based upon faith.

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Thames, New Zealand
    Posts
    2,342
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I sort of would too, as BOTH Israel and ourselves receive the inheritance based upon faith.
    As there is only ONE people of God; John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 2:10-11, + , and we Christians are the inheritors; Ephesians 1:10-14 & 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, +, and Israel [the Jews, who you mean] have no faith in Jesus, then the conclusion is obvious.

    However, there are some Messianic Jews and there are Christian people from every race, nation and language, so it follows that all true believers are the Israel of God.
    There is no 'supersession', just a continuation of people with faith and trust in God.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Fulfillment in Christ
    By Follower1977 in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: Nov 18th 2018, 06:15 AM
  2. Matthew 5.18's fulfillment
    By randyk in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Dec 14th 2016, 02:39 PM
  3. Replies: 1
    Last Post: Dec 7th 2013, 10:54 PM
  4. MULTILAYERED FULFILLMENT?
    By The Beginner in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: Sep 2nd 2011, 05:52 PM
  5. Zechariah 12 fulfillment
    By John146 in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: May 14th 2009, 07:43 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •