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Thread: supercessionism or fulfillment?

  1. #61
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That is nonsensical. The fact God judges sinners does not invalidate God's grace. That's the whole process I'm arguing for, that God delays judgment in order to show grace for nations until individuals have been given an opportunity to respond to that grace.

    That is the gospel. Judgment will come once remnants have been established on behalf of those nations. Then nations can be recovered from those who choose to reject the gospel. That recovery will require God's judgment of those who are resistant, and will reward those who repent.
    I never imagined or suggested such as you suppose.
    my point was that Israel is under grace just like Christians
    BUT as long as Israel is in a broken from the vine condition
    It cannot be God's chosen people or expect the promised blessings.

    You focus on what will be... I speak of what is.

    Maybe Israel will be restored as God's chosen people someday,
    but that day has not come as yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That is nonsensical. The fact God judges sinners does not invalidate God's grace. That's the whole process I'm arguing for, that God delays judgment in order to show grace for nations until individuals have been given an opportunity to respond to that grace.

    That is the gospel. Judgment will come once remnants have been established on behalf of those nations. Then nations can be recovered from those who choose to reject the gospel. That recovery will require God's judgment of those who are resistant, and will reward those who repent.
    I never imagined or suggested such as you suppose.
    my point was that Israel is under grace just like Christians
    BUT as long as Israel is in a broken from the vine condition
    It cannot be God's chosen people or expect the promised blessings.

    You focus on what will be... I speak of what is.

    Maybe Israel will be restored as God's chosen people someday,
    but that day has not come as yet.

  2. #62

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    None of your verses prove that the Church is in heaven. They simply do not say that at all.
    Yet you provide no reason or dialogue for your assumption, yet notice I do provide commentary on the verses you use and give you my reasoning, If I just said Im right and your wrong, where is the edification for any one.

    For example when you used these verses you were acknowledging that the unbelieving Jews were not going to heaven to be with the Lord when they died.
    I reject the idea of humans living in heaven because Jesus said that such an idea was impossible John 7:34, John 8:21-23
    John 8:21-23 Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.” So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?” And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

    There are a few ways I could have answered you, and I did point out that this is in regards to unbelievers so no one thinks they were going to heaven anyway, But I thought I answered according to your understanding for if the Lord had said to the Pharisees where I am going you will not be with me, and you concluded that that means they are not in heaven, conversely then you would also conclude that if the Lord said "you can come with me where I go" then logically speaking we would think the Lord would be saying that the Pharisees are now in heaven with Him.
    Of course we both know that was never going to happen, but what about believers? in exactly the same context which by the way is why I used the verses I used for the Lord told believers that He will go away, and that they will follow to go be where he is, and yes, I presumed from your previous points that we both already have acknowledge that it is in heaven, Unless it now disagrees with our doctrines then of course do we then we just change it?

    Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?”Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward.”

    Again in John chapter 17 verse 11 for context The Lord is about to leave and go to the father IN heaven.

    Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

    Then in verse 24 the Lord tells us we will go to be with Him where he is,

    “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

    These are not the verses I would normally use to show we are in heaven when we die for I just thought you might just dismiss the ones I normally use, but maybe you would understand or follow these ones.




    Like in 2Cor 5 we see our home in heaven, we can see the beginning of the great heavenly city that will descend.
    For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven

    Also we are plainly told to be absent from the body, that is to be dead or asleep, we are then present with the Lord.

    So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

    This is why Paul on one hands says it would be better to depart so he can be with the Lord!

    We see in Daniel 7:23 and Revelation 13:7, that the holy people of God - and there is only ONE people of God, are in the holy Land when the Anti-Christ leader of the world government conquers them. Revelation 12:6-17 is confirmation of this and we see how the Christians are divided into 2 groups, one taken to safety, the other must remain. Paralleled by Daniel 11:32-35

    The issue of who is the true Israel has been well worked over on this forum. Some want to believe that they are only the Jewish people, this is so that they can go to live in heaven while the Jews face trials and testing on earth. This idea is not found in the Bible.

    But you are right, they are the redeemed, restored and forgiven people, which makes them the descendants of Jacob, the original Israel.
    The Bible says in many prophesies that the House of Israel will become great peoples and become innumerable. Then we see that Jesus came only to save the House of Israel and if people want to think that the Jews represent them, then Jesus' mission failed.

    Jesus said that the Kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to a nation [people group] the bears the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43 Who are those people? They can only be Christians, who are the Overcomers for God, as Jacob was, literally the Israelites of God.
    WE Christians are the inheritors of God's promises to His people, thru Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:20, Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:26-29
    I want to comment on all but probably just this in the meantime.

    The issue of who is the true Israel has been well worked over on this forum. Some want to believe that they are only the Jewish people, this is so that they can go to live in heaven while the Jews face trials and testing on earth. This idea is not found in the Bible.
    I again agree that there is only ONE people of God, that Christians are spiritual Israel if you like, descendants of faith, so was Naaman the Assyirian etc etc.

    I do not believe your answer in any way answers the fact that the Church has been raptured to heaven, or removed from the earth, for I agree the kingdom was not for unbeilieving Israel and is indeed given to those of faith, yet and this is repeated a lot, When Israel now becomes a family of born again believers, those who are on earth still alive physical Israelites, will be given the land promised and will rule over the nations.

    I can already guess you will say that the rapture does not exists, for I don't see how one could make it line up with your doctrine, for it again plainly says we shall always be with the Lord, to me what a comfort that is.

    For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1Thes 4

    Also the Church is not appointed unto wrath, but a pre-wrath/trib rapture, and interesting enough we are told that those who sleep, that is those that have died, and those who are awake/alive when that day comes, shall be taken to live together with Him(where he is). I personally take it that when that day comes, I wont miss out on the better to depart to be present with the Lord, as Paul exclaimed. So I do see we are all indeed one in Christ and therefore I don't see how the post trib rapture works either, as all believers including the Israelites would be resurrected at the beginning of the millennium yet I instead believe mortal believers are left post trib, I do realise the points of merit of the post trib view, I just disagree with them presently.

    For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

    So as I read scripture in my daily reading it always seems to point or line up to how I view it, honest im always looking for contradictions, ill come across verses like Romans 11:25, which say blindness has happened to Israel, which must be the nation Israel for the church is not in blindness, until the fullness of the gentiles has come in, which means there is time limit for Gods grace just like as in Noahs day.
    Then Israel shall be saved, we have already established the context that Israel here is the physical Israel in unbelief, and now their sins will be taken away, again not spiritual Israel for this happened in the past at the cross not the future yet in the future the deliverer will come, Christ at his second coming. amen

    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


    And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart. Here in Jer 24 we have Israel returning with their whole heart, we know this is not a past event Israel have never turned to the Lord with their whole heart, we know this is not the Church, for the Church never departed from God that she needs to return.

    And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. Ezek 11:19

  3. #63
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Boangry, My reply does not need 'reasoning'. NONE of the verses you use actually say the God will take the Church to heaven. And nobody goes to be with the Lord when they die. Paul just said that he would like that, but did not say that was what will happen.
    We know from many other scriptures, that the dead 'sleep' until the final Judgement at the GWT, after the Millennium. Daniel 12:13 will and so will everyone who has ever lived. The idea of instantly being with Jesus at death, is a Biblical contradiction.

    We will always be with the Lord; now in a spiritual sense, Matthew 28:20, and physically after He Returns.

    We are not appointed to God's wrath, He will protect those who call upon His Name during His Day of fiery wrath, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, Isaiah 43:2,
    Having to use Revelation 3:10 as a 'rapture to heaven' proof, just show how little scriptural support there is for that false idea.

    All Israel shall be saved? If it is believed that this means the Jews, then you have another serious Biblical contradiction. Over 20 prophesies plainly say that only a small number of the Jews will be saved. The rest will die for their sins. Isaiah 22:14, Zephaniah 2:14-18, Romans 9:27

  4. #64
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    I never imagined or suggested such as you suppose.
    my point was that Israel is under grace just like Christians
    BUT as long as Israel is in a broken from the vine condition
    It cannot be God's chosen people or expect the promised blessings.

    You focus on what will be... I speak of what is.

    Maybe Israel will be restored as God's chosen people someday,
    but that day has not come as yet.
    Yes, brother, you bring out the real problem between our views. You look at the present, and I look at what will be.

    But how we view this determines how we read the Scriptures. How do Scriptures define Israel, as a Chosen Nation, or as a nation cast off? Roman 9-11 argues for the idea that Israel is still a Chosen Nation, even though the majority are temporarily cut off from God's People.

    So in a sense we're both right. I just think there's a danger in losing what Paul is saying about how God views Israel if we don't fasten upon Israel's destiny. If Jews today are cut off, and reject, for all time, the Gospel of Christ, that does not mean that Israel, as a whole, is not still the Chosen Nation. It is, in my view, only one of many chosen nations today. But it remains a Chosen Nation, just as always.

    Your determination for "chosen" status depends on current salvation. But I look at salvation not just as salvation for individuals, but also as salvation for nations.

    This is how I believe Paul looked at Israel. They were still a Chosen Nation, even if only a remnant was saved. The remnant sort of stood in for the nation as a whole, while the nation remained backslidden. Eventually, those who reject Christ will be permanently cut off, so that the faithful remnant can establish the entire nation as a Christian nation.

    It is critical, I think, to continue to see Israel as a Chosen Nation in terms of its destiny, and as held on by a remnant of Christians in Israel. It is a matter of representing the integrity of God properly. God chose Israel to be a theocracy, and He has never withdrawn that proposition. Israel remains backsliding as long as it does not embrace a Christian theocracy.

    Many nations have now had a Christian theocracy proposed to them. But even today most Christian nations have turned away from the idea of a theocracy--I'm referring to a Christian Constitution and a Christian Government. The Christian West is now the Post-Christian West, and many Christians view a plurality of religions and separation of church and state to be superior to a Christian Theocracy.

    So many nations have now been chosen, along with Israel. But like Israel they are falling. This does not remove God's promise to Abraham to have many nations. These Christian nations remain "chosen," in my view. But it's a good question, I think.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    As there is only ONE people of God; John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 2:10-11, + , and we Christians are the inheritors; Ephesians 1:10-14 & 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, +, and Israel [the Jews, who you mean] have no faith in Jesus, then the conclusion is obvious.

    However, there are some Messianic Jews and there are Christian people from every race, nation and language, so it follows that all true believers are the Israel of God.
    There is no 'supersession', just a continuation of people with faith and trust in God.
    You confuse what WILL be, the sheep from man y folds brought into ONE, and what IS.

  6. #66
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Ubiquity and iniquity:
    There are some who think that there is no distinction among the peoples of the world, they are all simply descendants of Adam. The idea of the ubiquity of all humans.
    However, God did choose a man, Abraham; to be the father of peoples who would be God’s special people to be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and to display His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

    Matthew 8:11-12 Many, I tell you; will come from the East and the West and sit with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at the feast of the Kingdom. But those who were born into the Kingdom, will be thrown out into the dark, where there will be wailing and extreme sadness for what they have lost.
    These Words of Jesus plainly show that there is a people who are part of the Kingdom of God by descent, but they can lose that advantage by their own rejection of Jesus and failure to keep the Commandments. This was spoken to a Roman Centurion, so it applies to Gentile and Jewish peoples.

    We know that the Jewish people only represent the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin. The Jews themselves admit this truth.
    The other 10 tribes remain scattered among the nations, Deuteronomy 4:27-28, John 7:35, serving their decreed time of exile. Ezekiel 4:4-5, multiplied by; Leviticus 26:18 = 2730 years. This time of exile is nearly finished and those people who have accepted the Salvation offered by Jesus, Matthew 15:24, will be Redeemed, restored and forgiven for their iniquities.
    They ARE the people who comprise the ‘nation’, who bear the proper fruit; Matthew 21:43, all faithful Christians, now belonging to many diverse nationalities and speaking many different languages.

    They will all come together, as prophesied; Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-11, Jeremiah 50:4-7, +, into the holy Land, all the area given to Abraham, but never yet fully occupied by the Lord’s people.
    John sees them in his vision of the future; of Revelation 7:1-14, when the Lord will select 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel to go out and proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19, Revelation 14:1-7

    Malachi 3:6-7 I the Lord do not change and you, [my People] have not ceased to be the children of Jacob. Ever since the time of your forefathers, you have been wayward and have not kept My Laws. But if you return to Me, I shall return to you.

    We Christian believers ARE the Lord’s people. WE must keep our faith through all that must happen and prove ourselves to be worthy when Jesus Returns, to be His priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:21
    Isaiah 49:8-13 says that the tribes of Israel will be restored and the Lord’s Salvation will reach to the ends of the earth. The Salvation has reached us and now we await the restoration back into our heritage. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Psalms 37:29, where we will be called the children of the Living God. Romans 9:24-26

  7. #67

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Boangry, My reply does not need 'reasoning'. NONE of the verses you use actually say the God will take the Church to heaven. And nobody goes to be with the Lord when they die.
    Sure they do, the verses are reasonably clear, John 14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: (In heaven) if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you(in heaven). And if I go and prepare a place for you,(in heaven) I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.(In heaven)


    Paul just said that he would like that, but did not say that was what will happen.
    Yes Paul would love to be in heaven, and hes already been there, he was in the third heavens whether in the body or out of the body. And if we are not in our bodies then he said we will be in the presence of the Lord. And he is confident of this fact and so can we be.

    2cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Also take note of where Paul says this is, ill highlight the words he uses back in verse 1 and 2

    For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:





    We know from many other scriptures, that the dead 'sleep' until the final Judgement at the GWT, after the Millennium. Daniel 12:13 will and so will everyone who has ever lived. The idea of instantly being with Jesus at death, is a Biblical contradiction.
    Well actually, the idea of soul sleep is a biblical contradiction
    We will always be with the Lord; now in a spiritual sense, Matthew 28:20, and physically after He Returns.
    Actually the verse says the Lord will always be with us.

    We are not appointed to God's wrath, He will protect those who call upon His Name during His Day of fiery wrath, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, Isaiah 43:2,
    Protect them so they can die as martyrs? even the two witnesses will still ascend to heaven.
    Having to use Revelation 3:10 as a 'rapture to heaven' proof, just show how little scriptural support there is for that false idea.
    I havnt used that verse, and I havnt used any where near all the rapture verses, but now that you point it out it is a great verse that lines up with and supports a pre trib rapture.

    All Israel shall be saved? If it is believed that this means the Jews, then you have another serious Biblical contradiction. Over 20 prophesies plainly say that only a small number of the Jews will be saved. The rest will die for their sins. Isaiah 22:14, Zephaniah 2:14-18, Romans 9:27
    I understand how you take and apply this verse, but I honestly see you as taking this verse and applying an overly rigid or legal interpretation of it, when context is already decided. Ill try and give you an example of how I see you apply this verse so you can understand at least another angle that I approach this verse from.

    One fortuitous day I came into a heap of money, then I went to school one following day and as a generous act of grace I announced that at the start of the next year, I will give all students a free laptop, that is students that attend my school.

    The local newspaper hears about this, and publishes the story detailing all that has happened and have headlined the article, All students shall receive free laptops

    Keraz rings up the editor, "your headline is not true for obvious reasons, first not all students will receive a free laptop, for at the end of the year some of the students will have left school and are therefore no longer recipients, also All students means All those past present and future students, even those who have been expelled or no longer attend the school, So again its not all students.

    In fact if its true all students who are going to receive a free laptop then for this to happen then it must be talking about all students which then includes all students from other schools" etc etc. I am just trying to convey the general idea of how I understand your logic applied to this verse in isolation, not every one who reads all reads all as you do, especially when to me the context is at the Lords coming.

    So just as I think at the start of the year all students will receive the laptop im going to give them. Then at the start of the millennium, all Israel shall receive salvation. For at that time they will repent and become believers and they will all go into the promised land. I do not see the contradiction you do.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Sure they do, the verses are reasonably clear, John 14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: (In heaven) if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you(in heaven). And if I go and prepare a place for you,(in heaven) I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.(In heaven)


    Yes Paul would love to be in heaven, and hes already been there, he was in the third heavens whether in the body or out of the body. And if we are not in our bodies then he said we will be in the presence of the Lord. And he is confident of this fact and so can we be.

    Well actually, the idea of soul sleep is a biblical contradiction
    Actually the verse says the Lord will always be with us.

    Protect them so they can die as martyrs? even the two witnesses will still ascend to heaven.
    I havnt used that verse, and I havnt used any where near all the rapture verses, but now that you point it out it is a great verse that lines up with and supports a pre trib rapture.
    It is only with the pre-conceived idea of a 'rapture, that you interpret John 14:1-2 that way.
    We ARE told when those worthy will inhabit the New Jerusalem; Revelation 21:1-7....after the Millennium.

    The belief of going to live in heaven dead or alive; is refuted by many scriptures. Believing it is to believe a lie. Jesus said so: John 3:13

    The verse of Revelation 3:10- if it is believed to mean a removal, then it contradicts itself.
    …..I will keep you from the ordeal that will fall upon the whole world to test its inhabitants. Does NOT say: take you away, or out of, or fly you to heaven, etc.
    Proved by 1 Peter 4:12 and Luke 21:35, where it is plainly state that the forthcoming test by fire will affect everyone.
    Many prophesies tell us that the Lord will protect His own people during this terrible event. Isaiah 43:2, Isaiah 41:12, Jeremiah 17:7-8, 2 Thess 1:7

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That is nonsensical. The fact God judges sinners does not invalidate God's grace. That's the whole process I'm arguing for, that God delays judgment in order to show grace for nations until individuals have been given an opportunity to respond to that grace.

    That is the gospel. Judgment will come once remnants have been established on behalf of those nations. Then nations can be recovered from those who choose to reject the gospel. That recovery will require God's judgment of those who are resistant, and will reward those who repent.
    It is written somewhere that...The wisdom of God is foolishness to men.

    IMHO, it is foolish to argue that because God promised something to the obedient
    that the disobedient are in the process of receiving that promise
    while they are in rebellious disobedience...showing no propensity to change.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    It is written somewhere that...The wisdom of God is foolishness to men.

    IMHO, it is foolish to argue that because God promised something to the obedient
    that the disobedient are in the process of receiving that promise
    while they are in rebellious disobedience...showing no propensity to change.
    This appears to be a misunderstanding. There is a big difference between saying it is certain that the wicked will be saved and saying that *some* of Israel will be saved. One thing is certain: some of Israel will get saved, even though they presently are in a state of rebellion. We were *all* rebellious before we got saved, to some degree, although some, like myself, were actually raised up in the Christian faith from birth.

    Is it really too much to say that *some* in Germany will get saved, or that *some* in America will get saved? Is it too much to anticipate that *some* in the UK will get saved, even though they are currently rebellious.

    I have a number of relatives over in the UK who are presently not Christian at all. I fully anticipate that *some of them* will get saved.

    That is God's plan, to save *some* of Israel, and to save *some* in many nations. In this way God anticipates that He will restore Christian nations. That is precisely what He *promised* Abraham, that remnants of nations will continue in the faith until the nations they represent are judged and restored to the faith of Abraham.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This appears to be a misunderstanding. There is a big difference between saying it is certain that the wicked will be saved and saying that *some* of Israel will be saved. One thing is certain: some of Israel will get saved, even though they presently are in a state of rebellion. We were *all* rebellious before we got saved, to some degree, although some, like myself, were actually raised up in the Christian faith from birth.

    Is it really too much to say that *some* in Germany will get saved, or that *some* in America will get saved? Is it too much to anticipate that *some* in the UK will get saved, even though they are currently rebellious.

    I have a number of relatives over in the UK who are presently not Christian at all. I fully anticipate that *some of them* will get saved.

    That is God's plan, to save *some* of Israel, and to save *some* in many nations. In this way God anticipates that He will restore Christian nations. That is precisely what He *promised* Abraham, that remnants of nations will continue in the faith until the nations they represent are judged and restored to the faith of Abraham.
    As I understand your position on this thread "Israel is God's chosen people- Today and now."
    They are not.
    What they once were, they can again be.
    But not until they get grafted back into the vine.

    So for Christians in America to believe that being pro Israel is godly
    Then forget that many Palestinians are Christians forced to live under non-Christian conditions
    is a sad sad commentary about Bible ignorance.

    God's believing people are placed in the heart of the conflict between Israel and Palestine
    because Israel is given undue favor.

    That is not as God would have it.

    It is nonsense for Christians to back Israel while it is in apostasy.
    It is wrong what Islamic Palestinians are doing to Israel.
    And there is no excuse that Christians should be so blind as to facilitate the persecutions of other Christians because they are Palestinian Christians .

    That my friend should be my final post on this thread unless I have so misunderstood something that I would be compelled to say more.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    As I understand your position on this thread "Israel is God's chosen people- Today and now."
    They are not.
    What they once were, they can again be.
    But not until they get grafted back into the vine.
    I can see where you've been going on this. You simply refuse to call "God's chosen people" those who are wicked rebels who refuse to serve God. Nor would I do such a thing.

    "Chosen People" is really a term reflecting God's calling, and not really, God's selection. They are "chosen" to be called, as a people, to serve in a Christian theocracy. The fact they refuse to do so, as a majority, does not make their calling any less real.

    Rom 9.6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

    Clearly, not all Jews will be "chosen," simply because they are "called" to be a holy people. However, the term "Chosen People," refers to their calling, and not to their selection as saved Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    So for Christians in America to believe that being pro Israel is godly
    Then forget that many Palestinians are Christians forced to live under non-Christian conditions
    is a sad sad commentary about Bible ignorance.
    It is ignorant to think that Christian Palestinians are all good Christians who are not participating in the sins of the Palestinians, who terrorize Israel and covet lands that they, as a people, have in the past given up.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    God's believing people are placed in the heart of the conflict between Israel and Palestine
    because Israel is given undue favor.
    That's false. Israel is preferred over the Palestinians because Israel is a democratic nation, and the Palestinians are a terrorist group of people who refuse to become citizens of Arab states.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    That is not as God would have it.

    It is nonsense for Christians to back Israel while it is in apostasy.
    It is wrong what Islamic Palestinians are doing to Israel.
    And there is no excuse that Christians should be so blind as to facilitate the persecutions of other Christians because they are Palestinian Christians .
    Israel is the one who is being attacked by terrorist Palestinians. Israel is doing nothing to the Palestinians except walling them off, to keep themselves from being bombed by terrorists.

    Israel is not in a state of apostasy today. Apostasy suggests that a people turn away, completely, from their religion. The religion of the Jews today is everywhere from the various brands of Judaism to a plurality of other religions. That is, ethnic Jews do not always subscribe to Judaism. Some define "Jew" as one who embraces Judaism. Others identify their "Jewishness" from their Jewish Mother, and embrace any religion that want.

    The Jews in Jesus' day clearly apostacized from the Law of Moses, and from the God whose Son Jesus came to provide redemption for them. But that is far, far removed from today's Jews, who are ignorant like any unsaved person from any other country. You should want to bring them to salvation, rather than condemn them as "apostates!"

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills
    That my friend should be my final post on this thread unless I have so misunderstood something that I would be compelled to say more.
    I'm perfectly happy with your future silence on the subject. I find it honest but despicable.

  13. #73
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    People here are still locked into the idea of a general Jewish redemption. This idea is not supported by Bible prophecy.

    Jeremiah 13:19-27
    The towns in the Negev are besieged, no one can relieve them. Judah has been swept clean away. This is paralleled by Ezekiel 20:46-47, Isaiah 9:18-19, Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Luke 19:27, +
    Look up and see! Those people who are coming from the North.
    The Lord’s people, all true Christians, migrating to the holy Land. Isaiah 41:8-10, Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10
    Where is the flock that you were so proud of?
    God’s faithful people; scattered among the nations.
    What will you say when your leaders are missing? When you wonder why this has happened? It is because of your many sins. Isaiah 3:1-3
    Can a Nubian change his skin? No more can you, [Judah] do good, so accustomed are you to doing evil. Isaiah 38-9

    I will scatter you like chaff, before the desert wind. Jeremiah 33:14
    This is your lot – I have decreed this for you, because you have forgotten Me and trusted in false gods. I will bare your shame for all to see. Isaiah 3:16-26
    For your adulteries and shameful deeds – woe to you Jerusalem. How much longer will you be unclean? Nahum 1:12-15

    This is a clear prophecy about the judgement of Judah in ancient times and again, soon to happen, proved by the unfulfilled prophesies here and throughout the Bible.
    Then, the Lord’s faithful Christian people will enter the Land from the North. Isaiah 49:12 They will live there, in peace and security, to prepare for the Return of Jesus.

  14. #74
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm perfectly happy with your future silence on the subject. I find it honest but despicable.
    I read your comment.
    Parleying about the meaning of Scripture with one who has no respect for context is worse than a waste of time.

  15. #75
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    I read your comment.
    Parleying about the meaning of Scripture with one who has no respect for context is worse than a waste of time.
    You're wrong about me. I'm all about context. It is necessary for proper interpretation. Words and phrases, and even sentences, can be completely misinterpreted unless the context is properly understood.

    That being said, your anti-Israel position is despicable, in my opinion. And again, I'm happy to not have you comment any further about it. The Jews went through the Holocaust--not the Palestinians. The Palestinians collaborate with those who seek the destruction of the Jewish State, or are themselves terrorists. What Christians exist there may or may not be genuine Christians. If they are genuine Christians, they should love even their enemies. I see no evidence of this, although indeed it may exist in a small, darkened corner...somewhere?

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