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Thread: supercessionism or fulfillment?

  1. #76
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    People here are still locked into the idea of a general Jewish redemption. This idea is not supported by Bible prophecy.

    Jeremiah 13:19-27
    The towns in the Negev are besieged, no one can relieve them. Judah has been swept clean away. This is paralleled by Ezekiel 20:46-47, Isaiah 9:18-19, Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Luke 19:27, +
    Look up and see! Those people who are coming from the North.
    The Lord’s people, all true Christians, migrating to the holy Land. Isaiah 41:8-10, Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10
    Where is the flock that you were so proud of?
    God’s faithful people; scattered among the nations.
    What will you say when your leaders are missing? When you wonder why this has happened? It is because of your many sins. Isaiah 3:1-3
    Can a Nubian change his skin? No more can you, [Judah] do good, so accustomed are you to doing evil. Isaiah 38-9

    I will scatter you like chaff, before the desert wind. Jeremiah 33:14
    This is your lot – I have decreed this for you, because you have forgotten Me and trusted in false gods. I will bare your shame for all to see. Isaiah 3:16-26
    For your adulteries and shameful deeds – woe to you Jerusalem. How much longer will you be unclean? Nahum 1:12-15

    This is a clear prophecy about the judgement of Judah in ancient times and again, soon to happen, proved by the unfulfilled prophesies here and throughout the Bible.
    Then, the Lord’s faithful Christian people will enter the Land from the North. Isaiah 49:12 They will live there, in peace and security, to prepare for the Return of Jesus.
    Amen! Someone who looks to the word beyond tradition.

  2. #77

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    It is only with the pre-conceived idea of a 'rapture, that you interpret John 14:1-2 that way.
    We ARE told when those worthy will inhabit the New Jerusalem; Revelation 21:1-7....after the Millennium.

    The belief of going to live in heaven dead or alive; is refuted by many scriptures. Believing it is to believe a lie. Jesus said so: John 3:13
    Yes I've heard this all before, yet in John 3:13 I 100% agree with the scripture here that no one has ascended to heaven except the Lord, and this makes simple logic for every sinner is unclean.

    The only way anyone can be cleaned and gain access to heaven is by the cross, and then belief in Jesus, which means they then become a new creation by being born again.

    Back to John ch 3, what is the topic and context? Its the familiar account that no one can enter into the kingdom of God (heaven) unless they are born again. Fast forward to the cross, today you will be with me in paradise is the reassurance from the Lord to the transgressor. Then when the Lord ascends he can lead the captives with Him. Eph 4:8-9

    So it's an explanation of how access is gained, not that access is now and forever denied.

  3. #78
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Yes I've heard this all before, yet in John 3:13 I 100% agree with the scripture here that no one has ascended to heaven except the Lord, and this makes simple logic for every sinner is unclean.

    The only way anyone can be cleaned and gain access to heaven is by the cross, and then belief in Jesus, which means they then become a new creation by being born again.

    Back to John ch 3, what is the topic and context? Its the familiar account that no one can enter into the kingdom of God (heaven) unless they are born again. Fast forward to the cross, today you will be with me in paradise is the reassurance from the Lord to the transgressor. Then when the Lord ascends he can lead the captives with Him. Eph 4:8-9

    So it's an explanation of how access is gained, not that access is now and forever denied.
    Unfortunately. this almost believable argument contradicts what the Prophetic Word actually does say what God has planned for his people.
    Many prophesies tell us that the Lord's faithful Christian people will be gathered into all of the holy Land, soon after that area is cleared and cleansed by the sudden and shocking Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Habakkuk 3:12-14, 2 Peter 3:7, +
    They are seen there in Daniel 7:23 and Revelation 13:7 They are divided into 2 groups as explained in Revelation 12:6-17. Verse 17 proves they are the Christians. Who are Jews and Gentiles, people from every race, nation and language.
    Only after the Millennium will God and therefore; heaven, come to the earth. Revelation 21:1-7

  4. #79

    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Unfortunately. this almost believable argument contradicts what the Prophetic Word actually does say what God has planned for his people.
    Many prophesies tell us that the Lord's faithful Christian people will be gathered into all of the holy Land, soon after that area is cleared and cleansed by the sudden and shocking Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Habakkuk 3:12-14, 2 Peter 3:7, +
    They are seen there in Daniel 7:23 and Revelation 13:7 They are divided into 2 groups as explained in Revelation 12:6-17. Verse 17 proves they are the Christians. Who are Jews and Gentiles, people from every race, nation and language.
    Only after the Millennium will God and therefore; heaven, come to the earth. Revelation 21:1-7
    I agree that the bride, the heavenly city will come down after the Millennium, which includes me. For that's where I will be.

    Eph 5:25-27 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    :32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

    You gave verse 1-7 of Rev 21 which in verse 2 calls Jerusalem a bride also have you read the next two verses

    8-9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God

    When I read the verses you provide, I honestly try but cant see how the context is relevant, maybe if you pointed me in the right direction? However I can at least come to the same conclusion to you as yes, repentant gentiles(also Christians) will also enter the promised land, wanting to follow the nation Israel but the tables will be turned for Israel will now rule them, they will be servants.

    Isaiah 14:1-2 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors

    In the same sense the tables will be turned for Israel are not Gods people is the common cry today, In that day the cry will be they are Gods people and God is with you, please take us with you.

    Zech 8:23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

  5. #80
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    When I read the verses you provide, I honestly try but cant see how the context is relevant, maybe if you pointed me in the right direction? However I can at least come to the same conclusion to you as yes, repentant gentiles(also Christians) will also enter the promised land, wanting to follow the nation Israel but the tables will be turned for Israel will now rule them, they will be servants.
    I gave 2 verses: Daniel 7:23 and Revelation 13:7. They prove that God's holy people, the one people of God; every faithful Christian, Jew and Gentiles as equals; are on earth when they are conquered by the 'beast'. Who will be the leader of the One World govt.
    Revelation 12:6-17 also proves that the Christians are present on earth then and Matthew 24:30-31 plainly states that Jesus will gather His people to His at His Return.
    So, your idea of going to heaven and living in the New Jerusalem, which, btw; does not come to the earth until AFTER the Millennium, is false teaching and will never happen.

    But people shouldn't think that to remain on earth during all that is prophesied to happen before Jesus Returns, will be all hardship and troubles.
    No; the Bible says the Lord will bless His people and they will live in peace and prosperity. Only for the last 3 1/2 years, will there be difficulty for some, most will go into a place of safety for that time. Revelation 12:14
    Then we look forward to the wonderful time of the Millennium, with Jesus as King over all the earth.

  6. #81
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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Those who respond to the Gospel, are the true Israelites:
    The people who hear the voice of Jesus and do what Jesus says: are my people of Israel, My Overcomers, the Victorious ones, literally the Israelites of God. Revelation 3:20-21 Not ethnic Israel, but the genuine Christian Israel of God. Galatians 6:14-16
    Jesus sent His Disciples-Apostles to the Gentiles; non-Jews, where the House of Israel was; scattered around the world. Not to Judah, as He preached to Judah and was rejected. Their mission was amazingly successful, resulting in the millions of Christians worldwide.
    They didn’t disobey Jesus’ Command, by going to who the Jews referred to as Gentiles, because the people who heard the Gospel and who accepted it, plainly were Israelites, the ‘dispersion’, as John 7:35 informs us.
    The prophecy of Caiaphas, John 11:50-52, was that; Jesus would die for the nation, in order to gather together the scattered children of God.

    Jesus calls us His sheep, because we hear Him. John 10:16 Just as Noah heard God, and just as Abraham heard God. God says that no other people have heard Him but those with the faith of Abraham. He tells us that these are the people He chose... because they heard Him. Deuteronomy 7:6-10

    Ephesians 1:4-5 Before the foundation of the world, He chose those who would accept Christ to be His people, to be without blemish in His sight and full of love of Him and their fellow men. It was His good will and pleasure that we Christians are predestined to be adopted as God’s children through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.
    What else can it mean, but that every person who has understanding and who accepts the Gospel of Jesus, belongs to the true Israel? Grafted into the one Seed, Jesus; but an originally chosen, natural-born Christian Israelite. John 15:16, 1 Peter 2:9-10

    Since every nation in the world has been completely genetically mixed, the sheep who hear Jesus' voice are from all the tribes, races, nations and languages. Revelation 7:9
    It IS the way to know that we ARE the true Israel, because we DO hear Jesus and as faithful Christians, worship and obey Him.
    John 10:1-18 tells us in very specific terms, the nature of the sheep and the shepherd. If we truly match that definition, mind and soul, we have the faith of Abraham in our being.

    Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who follow after righteousness, all who seek the Lord. Consider the Rock from which you are descended. Consider Abraham, your father and Sarah, your mother, when I called him, he was but one; I Blessed him and he is now many.
    This is a direct reference to Christians, the Israelite sons of God. Romans 9:24-26

    The other aspect to this doctrine; is how some people are made for different purposes. Call it predestination, or God the Potter making some ‘vessels’ to be kept and some to be discarded:
    Romans 9:21-22 Surely the Potter can do what He likes with the clay? Is He not free to make two vessels out of the same lump, one to be treasured and one for common use?
    But if it is indeed God’s purpose to display His retribution and to make His power known, it is that with great patience, He has tolerated vessels that are made for destruction?

    Jeremiah 18:1-12
    These are Bible truths, therefore it is beholden for us, who have had heard the ‘call of the Lord’ in our hearts, to be very sure to stand strong in our faith at all times and look forward to the great Day when Jesus comes, bringing our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27
    Ref: logostelos.info

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