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Thread: supercessionism or fulfillment?

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    supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Some Christians think that because God stopped blessing the Jewish nation, and applied his new covenant only to a remnant of Jews, that His covenant with the Jewish People was supplanted by a new Christian covenant made only with individuals, and not with nations. Please allow me to provide a brief explanation as to why I think this is false.


    1) God's covenants are eternal with respect to the promises He has made. Any covenant built upon conditional requirements are not eternal. The Law was a covenant based upon conditional requirements that the nation Israel could not maintain in perpetuity, and is thus not an eternal covenant. But any covenant God has made with the nation Israel that represents an eternal promise is eternal. God made promises to the Israeli nation, and this covenant is eternal, and not disqualified by Jewish failures.


    2) What God prophesies to the Jewish nation changes based on the condition of the nation. When the nation falls into large-scale apostasy, the focus of blessing is upon the faithful remnant, and individual believers, as opposed to the corrupt nation. But when the nation as a whole is in compliance with God's word, the focus is on a recovery of the entire nation, making social conditions more hospitable for the individuals within that nation.


    We should not, therefore, think that turning from a focus upon the nation to a focus upon faithful individuals is an indication God's covenant with the nation as a whole has stopped. It is just that the vicissitudes of the nation alter the emphasis, and God's application of His blessings may change based upon the changing conditions of the people. As always, it is obedience to God's word that determines where the blessing goes. If the full nation is compliant, the full nation is blessed. And if only a remnant of the nation is in compliance, only that remnant is blessed. But the hope is always on the recovery of the whole society, to make conditions better for all individuals. And the indication God's intent is to restore full nations is indicated by the activity of God's judgment, or God's chastisement, in order to restore as many as are willing to compliance to His word.


    If God began with the nation Israel, and the nation was reduced to a remnant, this is the same pattern we see in Gentile nations who have come under the Christian covenant. The Christian nation begins under Christian covenant, having adopted a Christian Constitution. But then, as the Christian people backslide, God's blessing is reduced to smaller denominations and revival movements.


    Gal 3.17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Some Christians think that because God stopped blessing the Jewish nation, and applied his new covenant only to a remnant of Jews, that His covenant with the Jewish People was supplanted by a new Christian covenant made only with individuals, and not with nations. Please allow me to provide a brief explanation as to why I think this is false.


    1) God's covenants are eternal with respect to the promises He has made. Any covenant built upon conditional requirements are not eternal. The Law was a covenant based upon conditional requirements that the nation Israel could not maintain in perpetuity, and is thus not an eternal covenant. But any covenant God has made with the nation Israel that represents an eternal promise is eternal. God made promises to the Israeli nation, and this covenant is eternal, and not disqualified by Jewish failures.


    2) What God prophesies to the Jewish nation changes based on the condition of the nation. When the nation falls into large-scale apostasy, the focus of blessing is upon the faithful remnant, and individual believers, as opposed to the corrupt nation. But when the nation as a whole is in compliance with God's word, the focus is on a recovery of the entire nation, making social conditions more hospitable for the individuals within that nation.


    We should not, therefore, think that turning from a focus upon the nation to a focus upon faithful individuals is an indication God's covenant with the nation as a whole has stopped. It is just that the vicissitudes of the nation alter the emphasis, and God's application of His blessings may change based upon the changing conditions of the people. As always, it is obedience to God's word that determines where the blessing goes. If the full nation is compliant, the full nation is blessed. And if only a remnant of the nation is in compliance, only that remnant is blessed. But the hope is always on the recovery of the whole society, to make conditions better for all individuals. And the indication God's intent is to restore full nations is indicated by the activity of God's judgment, or God's chastisement, in order to restore as many as are willing to compliance to His word.


    If God began with the nation Israel, and the nation was reduced to a remnant, this is the same pattern we see in Gentile nations who have come under the Christian covenant. The Christian nation begins under Christian covenant, having adopted a Christian Constitution. But then, as the Christian people backslide, God's blessing is reduced to smaller denominations and revival movements.


    Gal 3.17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
    But God didn't start with Israel He started with the line of the faithful before the cross (true Israel) which came down to just one man Noah. Later true Israel came down to just Jesus and then went world wide.


    Isaiah 59:20
    20
    “The Redeemer will come to Zion,
    to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
    declares the Lord.

    It seams to me that the verse above is saying that "the redeemer (Jesus) will come to Zion (national Israel) to those in Jacob (true Israel) who repent of their sins,”
    declares the Lord.

    Romans 9:6
    It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Your premise fails. Randyk, because you have the mistaken belief that the Jews are all of Israel.

    A study of the first two chapters of Hosea shows us that Israel was to be cast off and divorced from God. They were to be scattered (“Jezreel”); they were to have no mercy (“Lo-ruhamah”); and they were to be no longer God’s people (“Lo-ammi”). But at the same time, God promised that they would be regathered under one Head (Jesus Christ) and come out of captivity. In fact, God told them He would “betroth thee unto Me in righteousness” (Hosea 2:19). The prophecy culminates with a Hebrew play on words. The name “Jezreel” means “God scatters,” but it also means “God sows.” (One must scatter the seed in order to sow it in the field.) Thus, at first the name prophesies that Israel was to be scattered; but ultimately it shows God’s Purpose—to sow Israel in the earth in order to multiply her as the sand of the sea, so as God remains faithful to His promise to Abraham.

    Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art My God.
    In other words, even though God did indeed cast off His people Israel, scattering them in the nations by the hand of the Assyrians, God’s ultimate Purpose was to sow them in the earth, so that they would multiply and fulfill the promise to Abraham. Furthermore, Hosea prophesied that; in the very place (of their captivity) where it is said that they are not God’s people (Israel), they would be Christians known as; “the Sons of the living God." Hosea 1:10, Romans 9:24-26

    The problem is that most Christians try to make the Jews fulfill these prophesies, when the House of Judah, is fact, fulfilling an entirely different set of prophecies. God in His great mercy has allowed them nearly 2000 years to change their hearts to Him and to accept Jesus as Messiah.
    If people realized that the Jews are to fulfill the prophecies of the House of Judah, instead of those dealing with the lost House of Israel, they would not have made this mistake. The Jews were certainly “cast off” in 586 BC and again in 70-135 A.D., even as Israel was cast off during 745-712 B.C.—but the difference is that the prophets uniformly prophesy good things for lost Israel even during the time of their captivity; while severe judgments were pronounced upon Jerusalem and the Jewish people.
    Note that Ezekiel 21:14 tells of 3 Judgements. The next one, to come; will be by the Hand of the Lord Himself. Ezekiel 21:1-7

    In Jeremiah 18:1-10, God says that the House of Israel was marred in the Potter’s hand, so God was going to beat down the wet clay and remake it into a vessel fit for His use. Then beginning in verse 11, God begins to prophesy about Jerusalem and Judah. First comes an indictment for their sins, and then in Jeremiah 19:1-15 we see that Jeremiah was to take an old earthen vessel (as opposed to wet clay that was pliable), he was to go to the city dump and smash the earthen vessel there, saying: Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaks a potter’s vessel, that cannot be made whole again, and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury. Thus will I do unto this place, says the Lord, and to the inhabitants thereof, and even make this city as Tophet.

    God’s choice of an allegory to suit each House is amazing!
    An old clay vessel, once broken, cannot be remade into another vessel. Only wet, pliable clay can be used to remake a vessel. The House of Israel is like the pliable clay; but the House of Judah will be smashed and never again be built into a vessel of honour.
    At the end of the first Temple era, God departed from it and Ezekiel saw the glory depart. Ezekiel 10:4-19 It has never returned to the Temple. Even when Zerubbabel rebuilt the Temple in 515 B.C., the glory did not return to it when they dedicated it to God. The work was good and was allowed by God, but the site itself was cursed.

    This is consistent with the New Testament prophecies regarding the cursed fig tree, Matt. 21:21 the parable of the vineyard, Matt. 21:43-44 and the parable of the citizens who hated Him and would not allow Him to reign over them. Luke 19:27

    The point is, these peoples must still be around to fulfill these distinct prophecies for Israel and for the cursed fig tree. The lost House of Israel must exist to be remade into another vessel and Judah must exist to be virtually wiped out. Isaiah 22:14 The problem comes when people think that the smashed vessel is going to be rebuilt into a vessel fit for God’s use, and when those same people think that the original House of Israel is lost forever.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    But God didn't start with Israel He started with the line of the faithful before the cross (true Israel) which came down to just one man Noah. Later true Israel came down to just Jesus and then went world wide.


    Isaiah 59:20
    20
    “The Redeemer will come to Zion,
    to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
    declares the Lord.

    It seams to me that the verse above is saying that "the redeemer (Jesus) will come to Zion (national Israel) to those in Jacob (true Israel) who repent of their sins,”
    declares the Lord.

    Romans 9:6
    It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
    The words Zion and Jacob are different for a reason

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk
    Some Christians think that because God stopped blessing the Jewish nation, and applied his new covenant only to a remnant of Jews, that His covenant with the Jewish People was supplanted by a new Christian covenant made only with individuals, and not with nations.
    Is the Kingdom of God not a nation?
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    But God didn't start with Israel He started with the line of the faithful before the cross (true Israel) which came down to just one man Noah. Later true Israel came down to just Jesus and then went world wide.


    Isaiah 59:20
    20
    “The Redeemer will come to Zion,
    to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
    declares the Lord.

    It seams to me that the verse above is saying that "the redeemer (Jesus) will come to Zion (national Israel) to those in Jacob (true Israel) who repent of their sins,”
    declares the Lord.

    Romans 9:6
    It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
    You are representing "true Israel" as the Church, which in turn is presented as a collection of non-national individuals. And this is the position that I'm opposing. Indeed, true Israel is the Church. But it is only a small part of the Church, involving Jews who have converted to Christianity. True Israel does not include either Noah or Gentile believers.

    God did not begin His program of building nations with Noah. He began with Abraham, to whom He gave the title, "father of nations." He was entrusted not just with the founding of his own biological nation, but also with the founding of a faith encompassing many nations.

    And this is the whole point. God began by building the nation, Israel. And the goal was to establish Israel as a precedent for establishing many national theocracies. The Kingdom of God was to progress beyond Israel to include pagan nations, who were just as qualified for membership in God's Kingdom as unworthy, apostate Israel.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Is the Kingdom of God not a nation?
    It can reside within a single nation, or within any nation that conforms to the principles of God's heavenly Kingdom. God's heavenly Kingdom extends beyond any single nation simply because God fills the universe. His Kingdom is everywhere, and cannot be reduced to a single nation, unless that nation is viewed simply as being in conformity with it.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Your premise fails. Randyk, because you have the mistaken belief that the Jews are all of Israel.

    A study of the first two chapters of Hosea shows us that Israel was to be cast off and divorced from God. They were to be scattered (“Jezreel”); they were to have no mercy (“Lo-ruhamah”); and they were to be no longer God’s people (“Lo-ammi”). But at the same time, God promised that they would be regathered under one Head (Jesus Christ) and come out of captivity. In fact, God told them He would “betroth thee unto Me in righteousness” (Hosea 2:19). The prophecy culminates with a Hebrew play on words. The name “Jezreel” means “God scatters,” but it also means “God sows.” (One must scatter the seed in order to sow it in the field.) Thus, at first the name prophesies that Israel was to be scattered; but ultimately it shows God’s Purpose—to sow Israel in the earth in order to multiply her as the sand of the sea, so as God remains faithful to His promise to Abraham.
    The exponential growth of Israel as "the sand of the sea" is a metaphor for Israel's national growth, and not for any supposed extension of the nation into other nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art My God.
    In other words, even though God did indeed cast off His people Israel, scattering them in the nations by the hand of the Assyrians, God’s ultimate Purpose was to sow them in the earth, so that they would multiply and fulfill the promise to Abraham. Furthermore, Hosea prophesied that; in the very place (of their captivity) where it is said that they are not God’s people (Israel), they would be Christians known as; “the Sons of the living God." Hosea 1:10, Romans 9:24-26

    The problem is that most Christians try to make the Jews fulfill these prophesies, when the House of Judah, is fact, fulfilling an entirely different set of prophecies. God in His great mercy has allowed them nearly 2000 years to change their hearts to Him and to accept Jesus as Messiah.
    If people realized that the Jews are to fulfill the prophecies of the House of Judah, instead of those dealing with the lost House of Israel, they would not have made this mistake. The Jews were certainly “cast off” in 586 BC and again in 70-135 A.D., even as Israel was cast off during 745-712 B.C.—but the difference is that the prophets uniformly prophesy good things for lost Israel even during the time of their captivity; while severe judgments were pronounced upon Jerusalem and the Jewish people.
    Note that Ezekiel 21:14 tells of 3 Judgements. The next one, to come; will be by the Hand of the Lord Himself. Ezekiel 21:1-7
    There is no basis for separating Israel and Judah into perpetually distinct entities because God promised that they would ultimately be unified. That happened when Israel and Judah lost their monarchies, and when, during the Persian restoration, all Hebrews became immersed into the "Jewish People."

    Furthermore, this unification of the 2 kingdoms was intended to result in a single Christian coalition, consisting of Jews from all of the tribes. That is, all tribal groups would be presented to Christ as a single Jewish People with faith in him. None of this meant Jews would stop being Jews. It means they would ultimately convert to Christ or be cut off from being God's People forever. And the fact many Jews do reject Christ and are cut off does not mitigate against the fact the Jews are able to be reunified again into a nation of faith in Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    In Jeremiah 18:1-10, God says that the House of Israel was marred in the Potter’s hand, so God was going to beat down the wet clay and remake it into a vessel fit for His use. Then beginning in verse 11, God begins to prophesy about Jerusalem and Judah. First comes an indictment for their sins, and then in Jeremiah 19:1-15 we see that Jeremiah was to take an old earthen vessel (as opposed to wet clay that was pliable), he was to go to the city dump and smash the earthen vessel there, saying: Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaks a potter’s vessel, that cannot be made whole again, and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury. Thus will I do unto this place, says the Lord, and to the inhabitants thereof, and even make this city as Tophet.

    God’s choice of an allegory to suit each House is amazing!
    An old clay vessel, once broken, cannot be remade into another vessel. Only wet, pliable clay can be used to remake a vessel. The House of Israel is like the pliable clay; but the House of Judah will be smashed and never again be built into a vessel of honour.
    At the end of the first Temple era, God departed from it and Ezekiel saw the glory depart. Ezekiel 10:4-19 It has never returned to the Temple. Even when Zerubbabel rebuilt the Temple in 515 B.C., the glory did not return to it when they dedicated it to God. The work was good and was allowed by God, but the site itself was cursed.
    How can a restored temple, ordered by God, be considered accursed? I utterly reject that simply because God's word is a blessing, and not a curse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    This is consistent with the New Testament prophecies regarding the cursed fig tree, Matt. 21:21 the parable of the vineyard, Matt. 21:43-44 and the parable of the citizens who hated Him and would not allow Him to reign over them. Luke 19:27

    The point is, these peoples must still be around to fulfill these distinct prophecies for Israel and for the cursed fig tree. The lost House of Israel must exist to be remade into another vessel and Judah must exist to be virtually wiped out. Isaiah 22:14 The problem comes when people think that the smashed vessel is going to be rebuilt into a vessel fit for God’s use, and when those same people think that the original House of Israel is lost forever.
    The judgment of the Jewish People in a time when the majority reject Christ is no impediment to a process that will result in a regathering of the Jewish People into a nation of faith. What unbelieving Jews do is of no consequence to Jews who do indeed accept Jesus as the Christ.

    For the present only a small remnant of Jews convert to Christ. But after judgment, the Jewish People will be prepared to repent, and to receive Jesus as their Messiah. Then the nation can gather together into a nation of faith. Nothing you've said disproves this.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You are representing "true Israel" as the Church, which in turn is presented as a collection of non-national individuals. And this is the position that I'm opposing. Indeed, true Israel is the Church. But it is only a small part of the Church, involving Jews who have converted to Christianity. True Israel does not include either Noah or Gentile believers.

    God did not begin His program of building nations with Noah. He began with Abraham, to whom He gave the title, "father of nations." He was entrusted not just with the founding of his own biological nation, but also with the founding of a faith encompassing many nations.

    And this is the whole point. God began by building the nation, Israel. And the goal was to establish Israel as a precedent for establishing many national theocracies. The Kingdom of God was to progress beyond Israel to include pagan nations, who were just as qualified for membership in God's Kingdom as unworthy, apostate Israel.
    The faithful before Abraham had the same faith that’s why able Enoch and Noah are mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11

    Genesis chapter 10 list the table of nations started by Noah’s sons. The seed from Adam to Seth was passed down to Noah to Shem and then to Abraham. God started the nations before abraham but keep his seed through abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You are representing "true Israel" as the Church, which in turn is presented as a collection of non-national individuals. And this is the position that I'm opposing. Indeed, true Israel is the Church. But it is only a small part of the Church, involving Jews who have converted to Christianity. True Israel does not include either Noah or Gentile believers.

    God did not begin His program of building nations with Noah. He began with Abraham, to whom He gave the title, "father of nations." He was entrusted not just with the founding of his own biological nation, but also with the founding of a faith encompassing many nations.

    And this is the whole point. God began by building the nation, Israel. And the goal was to establish Israel as a precedent for establishing many national theocracies. The Kingdom of God was to progress beyond Israel to include pagan nations, who were just as qualified for membership in God's Kingdom as unworthy, apostate Israel.
    The faithful before Abraham had the same faith that’s why able Enoch and Noah are mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11

    Genesis chapter 10 list the table of nations started by Noah’s sons. The seed from Adam to Seth was passed down to Noah to Shem and then to Abraham. God started the nations before abraham but keep his seed through abraham

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    For the present only a small remnant of Jews convert to Christ. But after judgment, the Jewish People will be prepared to repent, and to receive Jesus as their Messiah. Then the nation can gather together into a nation of faith. Nothing you've said disproves this.
    It is what the Prophesies say that counts.
    Over 20 plainly stated Bible prophesies say that of the Jewish people, only a small remnant will survive.
    The 'nation'; the peoples of faith are Christians from every race, nation and language. Revelation 5:10, Isaiah 66:18b

    Your belief of a general Jewish repentance and conversion, is never stated in the Bible, but as Jeremiah 50:45 and Ezekiel 37 tell us; in the end times that Christian remnant will rejoin with their brethren, and will live there, blessed by the Lord.
    Jeremiah 12:14-16 describes the removal of all the peoples from all of the holy Land and only those faithful persons may go back there.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    For the present only a small remnant of Jews convert to Christ. But after judgment, the Jewish People will be prepared to repent, and to receive Jesus as their Messiah. Then the nation can gather together into a nation of faith. Nothing you've said disproves this.
    It is what the Prophesies say that counts.
    Over 20 plainly stated Bible prophesies say that of the Jewish people, only a small remnant will survive.
    The 'nation'; the peoples of faith are Christians from every race, nation and language. Revelation 5:10, Isaiah 66:18b

    Your belief of a general Jewish repentance and conversion, is never stated in the Bible, but as Jeremiah 50:45 and Ezekiel 37 tell us; in the end times that Christian remnant will rejoin with their brethren, and will live there, blessed by the Lord.
    Jeremiah 12:14-16 describes the removal of all the peoples from all of the holy Land and only those faithful persons may go back there.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Ezekiel 7:2-9 The Lord God says to the Land of Israel; The end is coming, it will affect all the earth. First, I shall unleash My anger upon you. I shall call you to account for all your sins and abominations that are in your midst. I will not pity nor spare you. Disasters are coming, one after the other, doom is upon you, dweller in the Land - the Day is near – a Day of panic and you will know that it is I, the Lord who has struck you. Isaiah 63:1-6, Isaiah 66:15-16, Psalms 50:1-3, Malachi 4:1,Zephaniah 1:14-18.

    Ezekiel 14:21-23 There is no hope for Jerusalem when I inflict My four punishments upon her, yet some survivors will be left in her- both men and women. Look at them as they come out, they will be a consolation for the disaster I have brought to her. When you look upon their conduct and actions, you will realize that I acted with just cause. Isaiah 22:1-14 Zephaniah 3:11-13

    Ezekiel 16:59-63 The Lord says; I shall treat you as you deserve, because you violated an oath and broke our covenant. But I shall remember you as in the days of your youth and will establish an everlasting covenant with you. Once I have pardoned you, [Judah] you will be so ashamed and humiliated when you remember all your past conduct that you will never again open your mouth. Zechariah 12:5

    This prophecy is about the end of the world as we know it. The Day of the Lord’s vengeance and fiery wrath, will change our way of life. Those ‘dwellers in the Land’, that is in Greater Israel, face severe punishments for their sins and abominations.
    THEN, the rest of all the 12 tribes of Israelites will join the remnant in all the Land of Greater Israel, to prepare for the Return of Jesus. Ezekiel 20:34-38, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Isaiah 11:11-12.

    Isaiah 65:1-2 I was ready to respond, but no one asked – I said; Here I am, to a nation who would not call out to Me. All day long, I hold out My hands, appealing to those rebellious people, but they went their own, evil way and pursued their own devices.

    Isaiah 65:3-7 They were a people who provoked Me by sacrificing to idols and eating unclean things. Such people are an anathema to Me. Your record lies before Me, I shall fully repay your iniquities, both yours and your forefathers.

    Isaiah 65:8-9 The Lord says; as there is juice in a bunch of grapes, so I shall act for the sake of My servants. I shall leave a remnant, giving descendants to Jacob and heirs to Judah. My chosen ones will possess the Land. Those who serve Me will live there. Sheep and cattle will graze there, they will belong to My people – those who seek Me.
    Isaiah 41:19-21 Micah 4:6 Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

    Isaiah 65:11-12 But you who forsake the Lord, I shall destine you for the sword, because when I called, you did not answer, you chose what displeased Me.

    Isaiah 65:13-16 The Lord says; My servants will eat, drink and rejoice, while you are put to shame. You will cry in anguish, but My righteous people, I will call by another name. All their troubles are forgotten, out of sight. Ref: REB. Some verses abridged.

    Isaiah 65:8-16 The Lord’s righteous people will live in New Israel. Isaiah 65:17-25 describes the joys and blessings of the Millennium reign of Jesus, to come later.
    Ancient Israel disobeyed the Lord and failed to follow His commands. Now, modern Israel [the Jews] fail to acknowledge how God has supported them. Also, the modern House of Israel [the western nations] are mostly atheistic or apostate. The Lord is going to judge and punish both Judah and Israel, leaving only a remnant.
    V9 ‘My chosen people, those who seek Me, will possess the Promised Land. [Every faithful Christian; this will happen before the Return of Jesus]
    V 13 “My servants will live in peace and security, while your enemies are shamed”.
    Ref: logostelos.info

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    The faithful before Abraham had the same faith that’s why able Enoch and Noah are mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11
    No question that the faith of the saints and the faith intended to be engendered in the nation Israel were the same. But there is a difference between individual saints and select nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox
    Genesis chapter 10 list the table of nations started by Noah’s sons. The seed from Adam to Seth was passed down to Noah to Shem and then to Abraham. God started the nations before abraham but keep his seed through abraham
    There is a difference between starting nations generally and starting specifically-theocratic nations. Israel was the beginning of God's establishment of a theocracy in a nation.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    It is what the Prophesies say that counts.
    Over 20 plainly stated Bible prophesies say that of the Jewish people, only a small remnant will survive.
    Of course it's true what the Scriptures have to say on the matter. But counting 20 instances of a particular kind of prophecy proves nothing.

    Clearly, only a remnant of Israel survived, after the captivities, to return to the land of Israel. Saying this repeatedly says nothing about the full restoration of the nation later, which is also said repeatedly. It is not too much to understand that if it is said that the full nation will eventually be restored, the surviving remnant can be seen to grow to become this new full nation. There is no contradiction here.

    Furthermore, the casting off of the majority in Israel who disobeyed does not mean that the faithful remnant that returns cannot grow into a new nation, replete with all of the characteristics that make it into a whole nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    The 'nation'; the peoples of faith are Christians from every race, nation and language. Revelation 5:10, Isaiah 66:18b
    A few misinterpreted statements in Scriptures may be perceived, wrongly, to indicate that the Israeli nation has grown to become the international Church. In reality, those few passages make more sense, I think, when applied to literal Israel, either as a Christian remnant or as the final constitution of Israel as a Christian nation.

    The incorporation of Gentile Christians into the Jewish "tree" has to do not with a redefinition of the Israeli "nation," but rather, with the assimilation of Gentiles into the faith first given to Israel by Christ. Once faith has been established in Gentile nations, it becomes clear that the assimilation of people into faith has nothing to do with assimilation into a single nation, since many nations in history have now become associated with Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    Your belief of a general Jewish repentance and conversion, is never stated in the Bible, but as Jeremiah 50:45 and Ezekiel 37 tell us; in the end times that Christian remnant will rejoin with their brethren, and will live there, blessed by the Lord.
    Jeremiah 12:14-16 describes the removal of all the peoples from all of the holy Land and only those faithful persons may go back there.
    That is false. The Jews themselves, well before Christ came, recognized that their Scriptures predicted a time when their nation would achieve final salvation. It is called the "Age to Come." Christians throughout the centuries have recognized these prophecies, but have often changed their application from the Israeli nation to the international Church, largely because it seemed that Israel would never achieve their promised national salvation.

    You have not addressed my point that God's promises concerning the Israeli nation cannot fail and cannot be revoked. Claiming there are no such promises is therefore bizarre.

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    It is what the Prophesies say that counts.
    Over 20 plainly stated Bible prophesies say that of the Jewish people, only a small remnant will survive.
    The 'nation'; the peoples of faith are Christians from every race, nation and language. Revelation 5:10, Isaiah 66:18b

    Your belief of a general Jewish repentance and conversion, is never stated in the Bible, but as Jeremiah 50:45 and Ezekiel 37 tell us; in the end times that Christian remnant will rejoin with their brethren, and will live there, blessed by the Lord.
    Jeremiah 12:14-16 describes the removal of all the peoples from all of the holy Land and only those faithful persons may go back there.
    Yes, I concur that despite the coming of the 2Ws to turn the heart of Israel back to God, only a handful will believe and be saved. So will there be an end-times national revival for Israel? Definitely, yes! But will all heed the call for redemption? No!

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    Re: supercessionism or fulfillment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Yes, I concur that despite the coming of the 2Ws to turn the heart of Israel back to God, only a handful will believe and be saved. So will there be an end-times national revival for Israel? Definitely, yes! But will all heed the call for redemption? No!
    I can't agree with Keraz, but I can't find fault with this at face value. At present, most of Israel rejects the Gospel, and only a remnant converts to Christianity. Paul made that point most plainly when he said that at present there is a remnant of Jewish believers. Jesus also made the point by declaring that the "great tribulation" of the Jewish People would continue until the end of the age. So only a relative few become Christian and avoid divine judgment against the Jewish People.

    To say that not all Jews will ever accept the Gospel is a truism The Gospel is always and ever only for those who choose to accept it. But this does not prohibit the rebirth of a full nation. In the time of ancient Persia the Jewish remnant returned to the land of Israel and became a nation again. What kept them from complete fulfillment was their lack of a Davidic king and full independence, which allowed them to be a nation, but not a complete *kingdom.*

    The prophecy of a *full nation* requires the expansion of a remnant to a complete population encompassing the entire land of Israel. Any remnant may do this, given enough time for natural growth. And I believe this will happen in the future for Israel, once Jesus returns. They will not only become a complete nation, but they will also become a complete *Christian* nation.

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