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Thread: What happens to the devil at the end..

  1. #16

    Re: What happens to the devil at the end..

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    But we do not dicuss evil. We discuss punishment - retribution. Sure, evil put away, but the theme of the thread is What happens to the Devil. But maybe we could discuss in a more efficient way if you posted verses for your belief.
    By evil, I meant the individuals. The knowledge of evil is never going to be taken from existence, because it was known by angels before they fell. As far as posting verses that support my belief, we use the same ones. We simply understand them differently. I'll give my view of the passage you cited from Eph.2:7 in your next post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I'm sorry. I do not understand your idea. I'll have to pass. Please forgive me.
    No need to apologize. I'm simply saying an individual's wrongdoing has a beginning and an end, but it's perfectly acceptable to say, "That guy has been bad forever", because we understand it to mean, "his whole life". Even fallen angels, who have outlived fallen man by thousands of years, will not be punished beyond the scope of their lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Again, I do not understand your response.
    Why don't you understand? Do you think Jesus wasn't affected by the sins of others the way any other human being who does what is right is?

  2. #17
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    Re: What happens to the devil at the end..

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    In Revelation 20:10 we read; "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." The language is plain. The use of "day and night" indicates the TIME of light and the TIME of darkness. And the last phrase "for ever and ever", if rendered literally, means, "into the perpetuity of age upon age". The word "Eternal" means "without beginning and without end". That word is not used here because the "torment" has a beginning. But because it has no end, the phrase "into the perpetuity of age upon age" is used to show that no matter how many ages there are, the torment will be perpetuated into that age.

    That there are multiple ages still to come is shown in Ephesians 2:7; "That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." This is addressed to believers and shows that it will take a number of ages to show the richness of the grace that we have received in Christ. So also, the torment of the Devil will stand as an everlasting (not "Eternal") monument to God's justice.
    Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

    Re 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

    Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

    So is death... death or eternal life in hell fire "for ever and ever"?

  3. #18

    Re: What happens to the devil at the end..

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    In Revelation 20:10 we read; "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." The language is plain. The use of "day and night" indicates the TIME of light and the TIME of darkness.
    "Day and night" are things pertaining to the creation of this present world and "for ages and ages" signifies continuity, not endlessness. It's for his sins committed during his existence (day and night for ages and ages) for which he stands naked before the Truth that the devil suffers torment. Jesus's very presence will be like a lake of fire that exposes and destroys the ungodly (2Thes.2:8).

    And the last phrase "for ever and ever", if rendered literally, means, "into the perpetuity of age upon age". The word "Eternal" means "without beginning and without end". That word is not used here because the "torment" has a beginning. But because it has no end, the phrase "into the perpetuity of age upon age" is used to show that no matter how many ages there are, the torment will be perpetuated into that age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    That there are multiple ages still to come is shown in Ephesians 2:7; "That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." This is addressed to believers and shows that it will take a number of ages to show the richness of the grace that we have received in Christ.
    Paul is speaking of his current blessings (vas.5-6) so that with the remaining time on earth (ages to come) the world might see the richness of Gods grace (the sacrifice of his Son) in calling them to his Kingdom.The rest of ch.2 shows this and continues into ch.3 where Paul says,

    Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles Eph.3:5

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    So also, the torment of the Devil will stand as an everlasting (not "Eternal") monument to God's justice.
    Unending torment of any finite being isn't justice.

  4. #19

    Re: What happens to the devil at the end..

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    I believe the devil and all of his spiritual children will suffer before the judgment seat of Christ and then be no more.

    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
    **Matthew‬ *25:46‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
    **Daniel‬ *12:2‬ *KJV‬‬

    “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”
    **Isaiah‬ *66:22-24‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
    **Revelation‬ *20:10, 15‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    **Mark‬ *9:43-48‬ *KJV‬‬

    it seems pretty consistent not just the term for ever ....but it seems to say eternal many different ways . It seems it's the group Isaiah mentions who will be looked upon and abhorrent to all people .....

  5. #20

    Re: What happens to the devil at the end..

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
    **Matthew‬ *25:46‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
    **Daniel‬ *12:2‬ *KJV‬‬

    “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”
    **Isaiah‬ *66:22-24‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
    **Revelation‬ *20:10, 15‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    **Mark‬ *9:43-48‬ *KJV‬‬

    it seems pretty consistent not just the term for ever ....but it seems to say eternal many different ways . It seems it's the group Isaiah mentions who will be looked upon and abhorrent to all people .....
    I don't believe the redeemed will have one hand, one foot, or will look upon anyone with only one eye for eternity. Do you?

    I think we should look at people the way Jesus sees them. To him, the unsaved were already dead standing on their feet. What's the meaning of worms not dying, or fire not being quenched? Is it perpetual torture, or total consumption? I believe its the latter.

    You know my friend, I went to a wedding yesterday. Everyone looked great all dressed up, men in tuxes, women in gowns, hair perfect, perfumed. But reality is, human bodies are decaying.

  6. #21
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    Re: What happens to the devil at the end..

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuteronomy Skaggs View Post
    Hi Walls, very nice post above to Journeyman .If you don't mind however, I have a couple of questions.

    Ephesians 2:7 talks about "ages" to come, but other verses, like Ephesians 1:21/Matthew 12:32, talk about this age, and the "age" [singular] to come. Is there a difference, or do you think that they basically mean the same thing? Also, if "ages" is correct for the eternity to come (instead of "age"), is there anything in the Bible that tells us what those future "ages" might be?

    Finally, you said "everlasting .. not Eternal" above. What is the difference between the two?

    Thanks!

    ~Deut
    Please forgive my late answer. Visitors over the long weekend took me away from the Forum.

    There are at least two ages to come.
    1. The Millennial Kingdom of Jesus Christ
    2. The New Heavens and New Earth

    I suspect that there might be more, but am unable to show them from scripture. The above answer needs some comment.

    (1) God gave the Governorship of earth to man in Genesis 1:26-28. The previous governor was Lucifer, an angel. According to Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 he mismanaged his realm of rule and was replaced by Adam and his seed. In Daniel Chapter 4 we read that at a certain point, Gentile rule will have an end and the MAN Jesus will set up an everlasting kingdom. So the Millennial Kingdom above is not a separate kingdom to Christ's rule on the New Earth. What is different is that the FIRST 1,000 years of Christ's kingdom is on the earth as we know it now - that is, the post flood earth. This earth has a system. It's main components are summer, winter, planting, harvest, sin and death and men and angels vying for ownership of the earth and its wealth - that is, war. In God's original council in Genesis 1:26-28 He proposed TWO things to His new governor. (i) Subdue, and (ii) Have Dominion.

    Adam makes a pact with Lucifer and becomes subject to death. So when our Lord Jesus comes He has an additional mess to deal with. Man is not only His enemy, but death has come in. So, in accordance with God's instructions to Adam, the "Last Adam" has to SUBDUE men, angels AND DEATH. Psalm 2 assures us of His victory and ultimate rulership, but at the end of this age rebellion is in full bloom. Gentile rule culminates in a vicious king who not only usurps the earth, but claims to be deity. Men at large accept this man and reject God's choice - the MAN Jesus. The last three and one half years see about two thirds of the world's population killed, men gnashing at God, and persecution of God's people unabated and vehement. So the first thousand years of Christ's kingdom is the process of SUBDUING while ruling. The Millennial age ends with a massive rebellion (Revelation Chapter 20) and a huge slaughter. But the last thing that our Lord Jesus does in this bloody event, is not to abdicate like Adam did, but to REVERSE DEATH. He will have subdued Satan. He will have subdued the curses on the earth. He will have subdued the Gentile kings. He will have subdued all men. He will have subdued Israel's rebellion. He will have subdued wayward Christians. And His final act in the Millennial age is to SUBDUE DEATH by raising all men still in Hades. So 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 prophesies;

    24 "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."


    So the Millennial age is the age of subduing all offending things in God's beautiful earth.

    Then, because God never patches broken things up, but rather makes a NEW thing, He PURGES the old earth. The earth before is purged by water, but this earth, with its history of rebellion and death, is covered by fire this time, and it's history expunged. So Revelation 21:1 says; "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." The word "and" is a conjunction, it indicates a sequence and it is a copulative. The "and" at the beginning of this verse means that:-
    what John saw was AFTER what went before. (The dog bit him AND blood came out within seconds - a sequence)
    what John saw was a new and another and different thing to what went before (The boy jumped into the river (first thing) AND got wet (second thing))

    In addition to this, the Greek word "NEW" does not mean completely new. It means "MADE PRISTINE". That is, the earth as matter remained, but the SYSTEM was MADE PRISTINE. It is so modified as to cause all inhabitants to have no physical connection to what went before. Noah experienced this. When he stepped out of the Ark it was still the same earth, but there was no connection to the past. God uses this "wiping out" to depict how the conscience of a Christian is "wiped clean" after Baptism (1 Peter 3:20-21). If Paul had not had this "wiping clean" he could not have served God properly because he had caused the death of Christians (Heb.9:14). Probably, some posters on this Forum are war veterans. And they did things that would greatly hinder serving God. So God "BURIES" their consciences when they are buried under the water of Baptism. So also will God do a work on the existing earth, so that the past cannot hinder the future. The "sea" in parable is a picture of death. There are many parabolic reference to the sea being death, from Noah, to the warlike nations, to Baptism, to the Red Sea, to the place where demons live, and so on. The reference in Revelation 21:1 is not only that there will be no physical sea, but that death and judgement are put away.

    This is the next age, and the most marked things are a (i) pristine earth, (ii) no war, (iii) no death, and (iv) everything in its rightful place. The Church is ruling with Christ, Israel vet any Gentile who wants audience with Christ (Gates stop or let people in), the Gentiles not in the Lake of Fire are allowed audience with Christ, and the Gentiles in the Lake of Fire are refused audience with Christ. God's councils of Genesis 1:26-28 are fully met. All offense is subdued and the right men are ruling.

    "Eternal" means without beginning and without end - Like God. "Everlasting" means it had a beginning but does not end - like the suffering of the tormented in the Lake of Fire.

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    Re: What happens to the devil at the end..

    Quote Originally Posted by henrychills View Post
    Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

    Re 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

    Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

    So is death... death or eternal life in hell fire "for ever and ever"?
    Please forgive my late answer. The long weekend and visitors got in the way.

    In Matthew 10:28 it reads; "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." In this short sentence there is much.
    • There are those that can kill the body - and God will allow it
    • There are those that can kill the body but they do not do it in Gehenna
    • Those who can kill the body cannot stop joy in the soul being manifested. A martyr can, in the process of dying, scream with physical pain but rejoice in his soul that he was counted worthy to suffer for Christ (Act.5:41)
    • There is difference in what men do when they kill and what God does. God "destroys" the body. The meaning of this word is not to annihilate or cause to cease being. Vine writes the following about it; "The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4, 6, etc.; the lost son, Luke 15:24; of the perishing of food, John 6:27; of gold, 1 Pet. 1:7." (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.)
    • Men can cause physical cessation of life, but God can cause the man to live in agony that would normally kill.

    So we have TWO deaths here. (i) Physical death caused by so damaging the body that it ceases to function. (ii) A sensation of death but without its release. One is death - the end of physical function and consciousness, and the other is "the Second Death" in which all the pain of death is felt in both body and soul, but consciousness is not lost. God calls this "Gehenna". Isaiah 66 and Mark 9 depict this Second death as "... for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." That is, there is an internal eating (for worms eat from the inside), and external burning (for it is a "Lake" - something one plunges into), coupled with a deep sense of being abhorred by all men and animals.

    So, in ...
    Revelation 20:14 it is this Second Death - unending physical and psychological pain that God administers to those deserving it
    Romans 6:23 it is normal physical death - the same one that men can inflict. This is due to all men (except our Lord Jesus) inheriting Adam's defective nature. Note that word "sin" is singular. Romans uses this to depict Adam's Nature (Rom.5:12).
    Jude 1:7 it is BOTH. God's recovery of man is by "the seed of the woman" (Gen.3:15). So Satan provokes angels and men to tamper with this seed. In Genesis 6 angels cause their seed to pollute the woman's seed, Homosexuality annuls the seed of the woman, and forbidding marriage annuls the seed of the woman (1st Tim.4:1-5). So God, in order to (i) protect His plan, and (ii) to indicate His displeasure at tampering with His plan, will lock up the angels who mated with women in a subterranean prison and rain fire on Sodomites. Note that in both cases God stopped their activities AND will judge them at the White Throne. We see this same thing in Israel in Daniel 12:2. "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Here, all died physically and are in the grave. But after resurrection comes another judgement and those who purposely and purposefully went against God will suffer "everlasting contempt" - an issue of the SOUL.

    Hope this helps.

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    Re: What happens to the devil at the end..

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    "Day and night" are things pertaining to the creation of this present world and "for ages and ages" signifies continuity, not endlessness. It's for his sins committed during his existence (day and night for ages and ages) for which he stands naked before the Truth that the devil suffers torment. Jesus's very presence will be like a lake of fire that exposes and destroys the ungodly (2Thes.2:8).

    And the last phrase "for ever and ever", if rendered literally, means, "into the perpetuity of age upon age". The word "Eternal" means "without beginning and without end". That word is not used here because the "torment" has a beginning. But because it has no end, the phrase "into the perpetuity of age upon age" is used to show that no matter how many ages there are, the torment will be perpetuated into that age.

    Paul is speaking of his current blessings (vas.5-6) so that with the remaining time on earth (ages to come) the world might see the richness of Gods grace (the sacrifice of his Son) in calling them to his Kingdom.The rest of ch.2 shows this and continues into ch.3 where Paul says,

    Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles Eph.3:5

    Unending torment of any finite being isn't justice.
    Thank you for your response. I will let my posting and understanding of "for ever and ever" stand. There is a simple test. Insert the plain words into multiple scriptures and the meaning remains the same. Insert your meaning into them and it will annul scripture. Here is one example. In Daniel 2:44 and 4:34 it predicts that God shall set up a Kingdom to replace the kingdoms of men. This Kingdom of God will continue "for ever". If we insert my understanding of the plain language the kingdom of God will remain for ever. If we insert your understanding, the kingdom will end. But there is more. The same plain language is used for the Almighty. In Daniel 4:34 it is said of "Him who LIVETH FOR EVER". By your understand God will soon die.

    I understand your unhappiness with "everlasting torment". Because we live in an imperfect world we tend to be "cauterized" to evil. We hate it but are just happy when it is over. Not so with God. His intrinsic nature is RIGHTEOUSNESS. He is offended by the smallest of sins and is bound by this nature to institute retribution. If you are not sure of this then look at the PRICE for our salvation - the beloved and innocent Son of God. Try to fathom why God allowed this enormous PAYMENT for sins. Jesus - Son of the Living God, exchanged for (i) the ENEMIES of God, and (ii) a bunch of criminals! Awesome! What a Price for sin and sins! If God was the type to wink at evil, He would just forgive. Hardly would He SUBSTITUTE HIS SON! But He did. He put the price of sins on His Son. God is inherently righteous and ALL and EVERY sin must be met with justice. Annihilation is NOT justice! Men inflicted great hurt on other men, and worse, they inflicted hurt against the highest authority of this universe. They will pay for this affront, and they will pay for shaking their fists at God and trampling underfoot the blood of His beloved Son Jesus. Believe me. Or believe the plain language of scripture.

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    Re: What happens to the devil at the end..

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thank you for your response. I will let my posting and understanding of "for ever and ever" stand. There is a simple test. Insert the plain words into multiple scriptures and the meaning remains the same. Insert your meaning into them and it will annul scripture. Here is one example. In Daniel 2:44 and 4:34 it predicts that God shall set up a Kingdom to replace the kingdoms of men. This Kingdom of God will continue "for ever". If we insert my understanding of the plain language the kingdom of God will remain for ever. If we insert your understanding, the kingdom will end. But there is more. The same plain language is used for the Almighty. In Daniel 4:34 it is said of "Him who LIVETH FOR EVER". By your understand God will soon die.

    I understand your unhappiness with "everlasting torment". Because we live in an imperfect world we tend to be "cauterized" to evil. We hate it but are just happy when it is over. Not so with God. His intrinsic nature is RIGHTEOUSNESS. He is offended by the smallest of sins and is bound by this nature to institute retribution. If you are not sure of this then look at the PRICE for our salvation - the beloved and innocent Son of God. Try to fathom why God allowed this enormous PAYMENT for sins. Jesus - Son of the Living God, exchanged for (i) the ENEMIES of God, and (ii) a bunch of criminals! Awesome! What a Price for sin and sins! If God was the type to wink at evil, He would just forgive. Hardly would He SUBSTITUTE HIS SON! But He did. He put the price of sins on His Son. God is inherently righteous and ALL and EVERY sin must be met with justice. Annihilation is NOT justice! Men inflicted great hurt on other men, and worse, they inflicted hurt against the highest authority of this universe. They will pay for this affront, and they will pay for shaking their fists at God and trampling underfoot the blood of His beloved Son Jesus. Believe me. Or believe the plain language of scripture.
    Well said, absolutely correct.

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    Re: What happens to the devil at the end..

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't believe "fire" is to be used as a literal place of torture, but rather, as a literal place of "torment." The torment is itself being removed from God's theocratic paradise on earth, as well as a sense of remorse or unhappiness. But "Fire" conveys the sense of removal in this respect, and does not mean to convey a particular instrument of torture.


    Scriptures say that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth presumably in the lake of fire (Luke 13:28). It further says that fire will continue to burn them. I see it as a form of torment.

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    Re: What happens to the devil at the end..

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    [/B]

    Scriptures say that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth presumably in the lake of fire (Luke 13:28). It further says that fire will continue to burn them. I see it as a form of torment.
    Yes, as I said, I do not believe the "fire" is an instrument of *torture,* but rather, an instrument of *torment.* It removes men from the paradise of the New Earth. Where these lost souls go I don't claim to know, but it is not in the New Jerusalem.

    There is no darkness, nor evil, in the New Jerusalem. There may, however, be a place on earth, defined as a kind of "lake," where lost souls are quarantined from the righteous. I don't believe in Dante's Inferno. I believe that the just Lord will render proper judgments upon men who reject His Son. And God's nature of kindness will be part of His decision.

    On the other hand, I don't believe there will be any redemption for these lost souls. Their fate will be eternal. Again, the "fire" is not to burn flesh to inflict *torture.* God shows no love for torture, although He has allowed wicked men to torture other men. In eternity, the "fire" serves the purpose of separating for the purpose of quarantine. That's "torment" enough!

    This is purely my view of it.

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    Re: What happens to the devil at the end..

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, as I said, I do not believe the "fire" is an instrument of *torture,* but rather, an instrument of *torment.* It removes men from the paradise of the New Earth. Where these lost souls go I don't claim to know, but it is not in the New Jerusalem.

    There is no darkness, nor evil, in the New Jerusalem. There may, however, be a place on earth, defined as a kind of "lake," where lost souls are quarantined from the righteous. I don't believe in Dante's Inferno. I believe that the just Lord will render proper judgments upon men who reject His Son. And God's nature of kindness will be part of His decision.

    On the other hand, I don't believe there will be any redemption for these lost souls. Their fate will be eternal. Again, the "fire" is not to burn flesh to inflict *torture.* God shows no love for torture, although He has allowed wicked men to torture other men. In eternity, the "fire" serves the purpose of separating for the purpose of quarantine. That's "torment" enough!

    This is purely my view of it.
    I'm not sure why you insist that in the context of hellfire, "torment" is different from "torture?". We are told that God has reserved a place called "Lake of Fire" for Satan and his angels where the lost souls will also be cast in for eternity. Nobody knows where it is nor does it really matter. What counts is that it's a scriptural truth. The Bible is emphatic that souls in the LoF will be "tormented with fire and brimstone...and the smoke of their torment shall ascend up forever and ever...and they shall have no rest day and night" (Rev 14:10-11).

    I'm not sure there's any other way to interpret this to mean something else than what the scripture says it is?

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    Re: What happens to the devil at the end..

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    No need to apologize. I'm simply saying an individual's wrongdoing has a beginning and an end, but it's perfectly acceptable to say, "That guy has been bad forever", because we understand it to mean, "his whole life". Even fallen angels, who have outlived fallen man by thousands of years, will not be punished beyond the scope of their lives.
    I'm not sure of what you mean by "beyond the scope of their lives", are you suggesting there's a cut-off point to the punishment of the souls in the LoF? If this is your view, then it contradicts scriptural injunction that they will be tormented forever and ever.

  14. #29

    Re: What happens to the devil at the end..

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thank you for your response. I will let my posting and understanding of "for ever and ever" stand. There is a simple test. Insert the plain words into multiple scriptures and the meaning remains the same. Insert your meaning into them and it will annul scripture. Here is one example. In Daniel 2:44 and 4:34 it predicts that God shall set up a Kingdom to replace the kingdoms of men. This Kingdom of God will continue "for ever". If we insert my understanding of the plain language the kingdom of God will remain for ever. If we insert your understanding, the kingdom will end. But there is more. The same plain language is used for the Almighty. In Daniel 4:34 it is said of "Him who LIVETH FOR EVER". By your understand God will soon die.
    I've already shown the term "for ever" doesn't always mean "having no end".

    he shall serve him for ever (owlam - in this sense, for the rest of his earthly life). Exo.21:6

    the LORD, the everlasting (owlam - in this sense eternal) God. Gen.21:33

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I understand your unhappiness with "everlasting torment". Because we live in an imperfect world we tend to be "cauterized" to evil. We hate it but are just happy when it is over. Not so with God. His intrinsic nature is RIGHTEOUSNESS. He is offended by the smallest of sins and is bound by this nature to institute retribution. If you are not sure of this then look at the PRICE for our salvation - the beloved and innocent Son of God. Try to fathom why God allowed this enormous PAYMENT for sins. Jesus - Son of the Living God, exchanged for (i) the ENEMIES of God, and (ii) a bunch of criminals! Awesome! What a Price for sin and sins! If God was the type to wink at evil, He would just forgive. Hardly would He SUBSTITUTE HIS SON! But He did. He put the price of sins on His Son. God is inherently righteous and ALL and EVERY sin must be met with justice. Annihilation is NOT justice! Men inflicted great hurt on other men, and worse, they inflicted hurt against the highest authority of this universe. They will pay for this affront, and they will pay for shaking their fists at God and trampling underfoot the blood of His beloved Son Jesus. Believe me. Or believe the plain language of scripture.
    Substitutionary sacrifice isn't taught in scripture.

  15. #30

    Re: What happens to the devil at the end..

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I'm not sure of what you mean by "beyond the scope of their lives", are you suggesting there's a cut-off point to the punishment of the souls in the LoF? If this is your view, then it contradicts scriptural injunction that they will be tormented forever and ever.
    Compare scriptures on the lake of fire with the presence of God to the wicked and judgment seat of Christ. They all describe the same thing. They're synonymous.

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