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Thread: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

  1. #16
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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It isn't a secret. They know he is coming and that is his day of wrath and they are afraid, shown in seal 6 and that's when the wrath begins:

    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?




    Rev 16:12 "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared."
    Rev 16:15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

    15 is merely a reminder that he will surprise the unbelieving world when he returns not that he hadn't already arrived in the context of verse 12.
    29 Immediately after the tribulation (7 vials) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


    Christ returns AFTER the 7 vials (IE GT) they are the wrath of God.

    The wrath of the Lamb comes after in which he lights up this world ablaze.

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Neither one is God's wrath. Matthew 24 is a specific time of great tribulation, Rev 7 speaks of any and all great tribulations, Matthew 24 is simply the worst of all great tribulation periods. The last part of Rev 7 is also in the eternity.

    In conclusion, Revelation 7:9-end is a glimpse of the eternity as are the latter chapters of Revelation, and this great multitude is there before the throne not simply after the tribulation, but after all tribulations have ended. They have overcome all tribulations they have faced and have been judged to life and are free to worship God forever and partake of all the wonderful things promised to us by God.
    Revelation 7 immediately follows Revelation 6:12-17, which is the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster; a 'great tribulation' for humankind, as millions will die and our modern infrastructure will be destroyed. It IS the wrath of God and the Lamb.

    You are right, in that Revelation 7:15-17 refers to Eternity. the reference to wiping away every tear is also in Revelation 21:6...after the Millennium.
    But Rev 7:1-14 describes things that will happen soon after the Sixth Seal event, all the faithful Christian people gathered into all of the holy Land, having washed their clothes spiritually by standing firm in their faith and trusting in the Lord's protection during that shocking and terrible disaster. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21
    We are told in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10; that Jesus will reveal Himself to His own after He has come in fire to destroy His enemies. They are NOT in heaven.

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    29 Immediately after the tribulation (7 vials) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


    Christ returns AFTER the 7 vials (IE GT) they are the wrath of God.
    The vials are not poured in the GT. They are poured after Christ returns.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The vials are not poured in the GT. They are poured after Christ returns.
    So then in your view the vials would actually pail in comparison to those under the GT.

    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    I would think the vials judgements when Christ return would be greater than any tribulation from any other source.


    Before Christ return the sun is blackened.....

    12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    But then we are then to expect 7 more judgements one which includes using the sun to scorch people but it can't as the sun is blackened!

    The wrath of the Lamb is a "day" not days nor weeks as would have to be the case is 7 more judgements needed to be poured out still.

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    So then in your view the vials would actually pail in comparison to those under the GT.
    There is no purpose in comparing them.


    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    I would think the vials judgements when Christ return would be greater than any tribulation from any other source.
    The GT is tribulation against Christians, the vials are not.


    Before Christ return the sun is blackened.....

    12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    But then we are then to expect 7 more judgements one which includes using the sun to scorch people but it can't as the sun is blackened!
    Because you assume once darkened it stays that way forever?

    The wrath of the Lamb is a "day" not days nor weeks as would have to be the case is 7 more judgements needed to be poured out still.
    Doesn't change that the vials are not part of the great tribulation.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  6. #21
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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The GT is tribulation against Christians, the vials are not.
    There are many tribulations and yes Christians will go thru a great tribulation. There is not "thee" great tribulation. However there is a GT which is more severe than all others, this involves the 7 vials matt 24.

    The GT in Rev 7 cant be the same as Matt 24 because in Matt 24 the sun is darkened immediately after wherein rev 7 it is not.

    Because you assume once darkened it stays that way forever?
    In this case yes. Actually Christ himself will have the brightness and the power of the sun within thus when he touches the earth will melt ect…..

    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    There are many tribulations and yes Christians will go thru a great tribulation. There is not "thee" great tribulation. However there is a GT which is more severe than all others, this involves the 7 vials matt 24.
    It does not involve the vials because those are for the wicked, not Christians.




    In this case yes. Actually Christ himself will have the brightness and the power of the sun within thus when he touches the earth will melt ect…..

    No, Christ does not melt the Earth when he returns.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It does not involve the vials because those are for the wicked, not Christians.

    I agree. The vials will not affect the Christians. Why? There will be no Christians on earth when the are poured out. All who opposed the beast and did not receive his mark were previously killed off.

    No, Christ does not melt the Earth when he returns.
    Amos 9:5
    And the Lord God of hosts is he that toucheth the land, and it shall melt, and all that dwell therein shall mourn: and it shall rise up wholly like a flood; and shall be drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.

    13 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.

    NA 1
    5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
    6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
    7 The Lord is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

    1 PT 3:10
    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


    There are more verses if needed. Not sure how you missed these...

    But I guess you believe in the fabled 1000 years so you have to deny these scriptures….I guess they are not literal, right?

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I agree. The vials will not affect the Christians. Why? There will be no Christians on earth when the are poured out. All who opposed the beast and did not receive his mark were previously killed off.
    Paul says there are some that survive. The real reason the vials don't harm Christians is because they don't harm Christians.


    There are more verses if needed. Not sure how you missed these...

    But I guess you believe in the fabled 1000 years so you have to deny these scriptures….I guess they are not literal, right?
    Rev 20 speaks of the thousand years so it's kinda dumb to call it a fable. No scriptures say the Earth is melted at the second coming. You misinterpret the verses you posted.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  10. #25
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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Paul says there are some that survive.
    Scripture?

    rev 13
    15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

    Rev 20 speaks of the thousand years so it's kinda dumb to call it a fable.
    it is not literal but I can bring up an old thread for you.

    No scriptures say the Earth is melted at the second coming. You misinterpret the verses you posted.
    [/QUOTE]


    Hard to misinterpret so many....

    Psalm 97:5
    97 The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.
    2 Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.
    3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.
    4 His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled.
    5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

    Amos 9:5
    And the Lord God of hosts is he that toucheth the land, and it shall melt, and all that dwell therein shall mourn: and it shall rise up wholly like a flood; and shall be drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.


    IS 64:2
    As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!

    EZ 22
    22 As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the Lord have poured out my fury upon you.


    NA 1
    5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
    6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
    7 The Lord is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

    1 PT 3:10
    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


    When Christ returns the old earth melts and is burned up replaced by a NHNE. Bye bye to the 1000 year fable.

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post

    When Christ returns the old earth melts and is burned up replaced by a NHNE. Bye bye to the 1000 year fable.
    No difficulty to prove you wrong: Revelation 21:1-7 happens after the Millennium. Revelation 20 plainly states that Jesus will reign on earth for 1000 years. That time is mentioned six times and it will be the final period of God's Plan for mankind.

    Why would Christ destroy the world He has just come to reign over?

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Scripture?
    You really should already know it.


    rev 13
    15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
    The image of the beast is in one local area. The worshiping of it is localized. Someone on the opposite side of the planet isn't going to be worshiping it.

    it is not literal but I can bring up an old thread for you.
    Literal or not, it is not a fable is it? Scripture speaks of it so not a fable.




    When Christ returns the old earth melts and is burned up replaced by a NHNE.
    No, scripture does not present that happening. None of those speak of the second coming. Go to the only book containing an eye witness account of the actual events so you can know what happens and not really on faulty human interpretation.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  13. #28

    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I think many are equating the mention of great tribulation in Rev 7 to the one in Matt 24. However they are not the same. The one in Rev 7 is a the hands of the AC wherein the one in Matt 24 is at the hands of God, God's wrath.
    The Rev 7 great tribulation began the day Adam and Eve ate the fruit. It has been great indeed. That is the celebration of the all the saints in the kingdom of heaven.

    Moreover, the one in Matt 24 is followed immediately by darkness, sun and moon ect at the 2nd coming wherein the one in Rev 7 is not.

    Thus the GT mentioned in Matt 24 is a GREATER tribulation than the one which befalls the saints. One which has never been nor will be.

    If one claims the GT which befalls the saints is the true and only GT then that make the wrath of God GT pail in comparison.

    Again, tribulation is a general term great or not, the qualifier the one in Matt 24 is greater than the one in Rev 7.
    Nice thought process! Agree.

  14. #29
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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    You really should already know it.
    Right after I posted I realized the verse, of course we have spoken previously what "alive" pertains.

    1 Sam 2:6
    The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

    1 Cor 15
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    1 Thess
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God : and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together

    The dead from the grave which are caught up are made alive.


    The image of the beast is in one local area. The worshiping of it is localized. Someone on the opposite side of the planet isn't going to be worshiping it.

    So I would suppose those somebodies on the other side of the planet are those supposedly protected in the wilderness...….

    C'mon. Now the whole world's population will be "centralized" (localized) upon the earth in one area surrounding this city. The world's population will not be scattered around the globe at this time. Regardless, the beast will force ALL the world to make a decision.

    And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

    Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

    So there are two groups, the haves and the have nots. Either you have the mark or you don't and if you don't your killed.

  15. #30
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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post

    The dead from the grave which are caught up are made alive.
    Neither the beast nor FP are killed then resurrected to be alive when cast into the LOF. They are simply still alive when cast into it.





    So I would suppose those somebodies on the other side of the planet are those supposedly protected in the wilderness...….
    I don't think so. The last 1260 days in Rev 12 begins before Satan starts the GT.



    C'mon. Now the whole world's population will be "centralized" (localized) upon the earth in one area surrounding this city.
    No, they won't all be there. Even the 6th vial proves the beast's own kings of the world are still located around the world and need to gather to meet at Armageddon. If kings loyal to the AC are scattered around the world so can believers.

    Regardless, the beast will force ALL the world to make a decision.
    Nope. Only those close by the image are forced to worship it or die.



    And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

    Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    None say the image is worshiped globally.



    And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    This means most not all. The two witnesses don't, the 144k don't, the ones "alive and remaining" at the second coming don't. None of those people were anywhere near the image of the beast when the AC made it come alive so they weren't killed for not worshiping it.



    And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

    So there are two groups, the haves and the have nots. Either you have the mark or you don't and if you don't your killed.
    This isn't talking about the mark. This is about worshiping the image of the beast or not and many people never worshiped this image. Who takes the mark or not is a different issue.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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