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Thread: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

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    Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    I think many are equating the mention of great tribulation in Rev 7 to the one in Matt 24. However they are not the same. The one in Rev 7 is a the hands of the AC wherein the one in Matt 24 is at the hands of God, God's wrath.

    Moreover, the one in Matt 24 is followed immediately by darkness, sun and moon ect at the 2nd coming wherein the one in Rev 7 is not.

    Thus the GT mentioned in Matt 24 is a GREATER tribulation than the one which befalls the saints. One which has never been nor will be.

    If one claims the GT which befalls the saints is the true and only GT then that make the wrath of God GT pail in comparison.

    Again, tribulation is a general term great or not, the qualifier the one in Matt 24 is greater than the one in Rev 7.

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I think many are equating the mention of great tribulation in Rev 7 to the one in Matt 24. However they are not the same. The one in Rev 7 is a the hands of the AC wherein the one in Matt 24 is at the hands of God, God's wrath.

    Moreover, the one in Matt 24 is followed immediately by darkness, sun and moon ect at the 2nd coming wherein the one in Rev 7 is not.

    Thus the GT mentioned in Matt 24 is a GREATER tribulation than the one which befalls the saints. One which has never been nor will be.

    If one claims the GT which befalls the saints is the true and only GT then that make the wrath of God GT pail in comparison.

    Again, tribulation is a general term great or not, the qualifier the one in Matt 24 is greater than the one in Rev 7.
    Throughout the NT, we read that there will be tribulations (plural). However, there is but only one GREAT Tribulation. If you claim that the one in Matt 24 is different from the one in Rev 7 then provide scriptures to prove there is more than ONE GT?

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Throughout the NT, we read that there will be tribulations (plural). However, there is but only one GREAT Tribulation. If you claim that the one in Matt 24 is different from the one in Rev 7 then provide scriptures to prove there is more than ONE GT?
    Ok...the AC claims to be God, thus his entry onto the scene needs to replicate the 2nd coming. Thus Satan will induce plagues, wars, ect…. to make it appear that the end has come and for his coming "son" to be accepted as the king of kings. So Satan will create a set of plagues (wrath) to mirror God's plagues (wrath) for deception. Thus there will be two sets of plagues one by Satan and one by God. Hence two GT's if you will, however God's will be greater than the first. This event is actually seen playing out in Matt 24.

    Satan and his GT wrath

    Matt 24
    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

    Plagues, war

    7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    Killing of the enemy

    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
    10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
    12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    What we see here is what occurs in Rev 7. Saints are killed during a great tribulation from Satan.

    God and his GT wrath

    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    Note the end is coming not another 3.5 years. Abomination is bringing about world desolation by God and his plagues not the killing of saints but the killing of the enemy

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

    Unbelievers flee (saints would fight) note they go to the housetop and remain.

    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    25 Behold, I have told you before.
    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    So it is apparent that the GT mentioned in Matt 24 is NOT a time of killing the saints but the killing of the enemy and desolation to the world due to the abomination of it's leader.

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Your argument lacks any support.
    There is no requirement for the AC to exactly replicate the 2nd coming.
    What he needs to do is show he is more powerful than those who send plagues, and he does this by killing the 2W.

    We read about God's wrath and Satan's wrath, and between the two we have a period of pain and suffering never seen before or since.
    One event from two perspectives with people being pushed to make a choice.

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    1) the 'abomination' of Matt 24 is not the ' living idol' of Rev 13. This is Matt 24's abomination:

    Ezek 44
    1Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east. And it was shut. 2And the Lord said to me, “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it, for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it. Therefore it shall remain shut. 3Only the prince may sit in it to eat bread before the Lord. He shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gate, and shall go out by the same way.”

    4Then he brought me by way of the north gate to the front of the temple, and I looked, and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple of the Lord. And I fell on my face. 5And the Lord said to me, “Son of man, mark well, see with your eyes, and hear with your ears all that I shall tell you concerning all the statutes of the temple of the Lord and all its laws. And mark well the entrance to the temple and all the exits from the sanctuary. 6And say to the rebellious house,a to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: O house of Israel, enough of all your abominations,

    7 in admitting foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, to be in my sanctuary, profaning my temple, when you offer to me my food, the fat and the blood. You/ they have broken my covenant, in addition to all your abominations.

    8 And you have not kept charge of my holy things, but you have set others to keep my charge for you in my sanctuary
    .

    This passage in Ezekiel is the building of the new temple. Prior to this new temple (aka 'Ezekiel's Temple'), Israel admits foreigners/ 'aliens'/ United Nations in the previous 'holy place' (the one that will be anointed at the end of 70 weeks (dusk Aug 22, 2019) from the end of 70 years of Jerusalem desolations (dusk April 19, 2018/ 5 Iyar, 5778) (Dan 9:2). The Aug 22, 2019 holy place will be defiled with foreigners: end of 70 yrs + 70 weeks + 7 weeks + 62 weeks + half a week/ 3.5 days = Dec 21, 2020.

    That event is Matt 24:15 and the 6th Seal and is the start of 1335 days. (Dan 12:10-13)

    That is the start of the events that culminate with the Day of the Lord that cuts off these sacrifices. (Gog/ Medes/ probably Russia?/ United Nations?) The locusts of Gog referenced in Joel cut off these sacrifices that are not acceptable: see Joel 1:4-9. These locusts are the locusts of the 5th Trumpet.

    'And you have set others to keep charge for you in the sanctuary' is when the 'Gentiles' / 'nations' are given control of the outer court in Rev 11

    1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

    Then, if you look at Zech 2:1 And I lifted my eyes and saw, and behold, a man with a measuring line in his hand! 2 Then I said, “Where are you going?” And he said to me, “To measure Jerusalem, to see what is its width and what is its length.”

    then Zech 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

    then Zech 4:2 And he said to me, “What do you see?” I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold, with a bowl on the top of it, and seven lamps on it, with seven lips on each of the lamps that are on the top of it. 3 And there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left.” 4 And I said to the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?” 5 Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” I said, “No, my lord.” 6 Then he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the Lord of hosts. 7 Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain. And he shall bring forward the top stone amid shouts of ‘Grace, grace to it!’”

    Zerubabbel & Joshua are the 2 witnesses are the 2 witnesses and are given power on 24 Kislev (dusk Nov 27, 2021)(Haggai 2:18). Add 1260 days, then 3.5 days to lay dead to get to 17 Iyyar, 5785 (May 14, 2025) which is the exact end of 7 solar years from the 70th yr (the aforementioned dusk April 19, 2018/ solar calendar May 14, 2018). 17 Iyar is the start of the 'days of Noah' mentioned in Matt 24:37-39. Please compare with Gen 7:11-24 where the flood goes for 5 months from 17 Iyar to 17 Tishri.

    the end of 1335 days gets us to Aug 17, 2024 which is 2520 days after the Rev 12 star sign Sept 23, 2017. Add 266 days (the exact length of pregnancy) to get to May 10, 2025. When the Rev 12 woman gives birth, her 'child' is caught up to heaven = 2 witnesses told to come up here on May 14, 2025.
    Add 69 weeks to Aug 17, 2024 to get us to the exact start of Hanukah/ 24 Kislev which is the 'great EQ' of the 7th bowl of wrath.

    May 14, 2025 starts the 7th Trumpet & kingdom of heaven & the beast from the abyss. The 'beast that was, is not, yet is' refers to the 'was' portion at the start of the Trumpets. The beast 'is not' at the 1335th day/ Aug 17, 2024. The 'beast is coming up from the abyss' is the 'yet is' portion starting after that date to kill the 2 witnesses May 10, 2025.

    2) When Jesus says 'immediately after the tribulation of those days', look at Revelation and see where the stars fall: at the 6th Seal, at the 2nd Trumpet, at the 3rd Trumpet, at the 4th Trumpet & at Rev 12:4.

    When the temple is defiled, Gog & his locusts pretend to be like Christ returning to 'defeat the antichrist' & purify the temple.

    This is a repeated pattern.

    Seals

    4And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

    9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    Seals stand in for everything from Jesus to now, until the 6th Seal

    Dec 21, 2020, foreigners are in the sanctuary


    15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

    Feb 4, 2021, the temple is destroyed and sacrifices in the defiled temple are stopped via the locusts of Gog/ Assyrian / king of the North

    23Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand. 26So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.


    29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Immediately after the tribulation of the false Christ, the 'was' portion of the beast, the stars fall at Rev 12 and the beast comes up from the abyss/ sea & earth.


    people are gathered at the start of the 1st Trumpet & 7th Trumpet. the stars fell at the 6th Seal & right before the 7th Trumpet at the 266 days Rev 12 pregnancy term Aug 17, 2024 to May 10-14, 2025, the start of the 7th Trumpet.

    dan 9 just table-1-page-001.jpg

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I think many are equating the mention of great tribulation in Rev 7 to the one in Matt 24. However they are not the same. The one in Rev 7 is a the hands of the AC wherein the one in Matt 24 is at the hands of God, God's wrath.

    Moreover, the one in Matt 24 is followed immediately by darkness, sun and moon ect at the 2nd coming wherein the one in Rev 7 is not.

    Thus the GT mentioned in Matt 24 is a GREATER tribulation than the one which befalls the saints. One which has never been nor will be.

    If one claims the GT which befalls the saints is the true and only GT then that make the wrath of God GT pail in comparison.

    Again, tribulation is a general term great or not, the qualifier the one in Matt 24 is greater than the one in Rev 7.
    You are right BUT wrong. The two are two re ot the sme, but the Mtt. 24 Tribulation is the End Time Tribulation of the 70th week. The one that is not End Times is in Rev. 7, the Church being shown came out of the 2000 some odd year Church Age Tribulation period. Thus 2000>7. That is why they are from every tribe, and nation.

    Those Martyrs in Seal #5 are specifically told they must wait until their brothers have been killed like they have, thus those mentioned there are the ones who specifically refused the Mark of the Beast in Rev. 20:4, and they live and reign on earth 1000 years with Jesus. They are raised and judged after the Church Returns with Jesus Christ at the so called Second Coming.

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Ok...the AC claims to be God, thus his entry onto the scene needs to replicate the 2nd coming. Thus Satan will induce plagues, wars, ect…. to make it appear that the end has come and for his coming "son" to be accepted as the king of kings. So Satan will create a set of plagues (wrath) to mirror God's plagues (wrath) for deception. Thus there will be two sets of plagues one by Satan and one by God. Hence two GT's if you will, however God's will be greater than the first. This event is actually seen playing out in Matt 24.

    Satan and his GT wrath

    Matt 24
    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

    Plagues, war
    This is the 70 AD Event above....thus the End is not yet.....70 AD is like the Zechariah 14:1-2 end time event for a reason, If the Jews had of accepted Jesus there would not have been any need of a Church Age period. The Church was inserted, the 70th Week Judgment put off, instead of Jesus saving the Jews in 70 AD, he will do that when they repent, he has stopped Satan from bringing forth his Little Horn/AC until that time. The Pharisees saw Rome as the Fourth Beast, thus they looked to a savior {christ} but they thought the christ was a political savior, not the Son of God. That was their blind spot. Thus Jesus tells his disciples not to fall for it and thereby go back to Jerusalem when they hear the "christ" has come, and rumors of wars, he tells them the end is not yet !! Its by and by.

    Plagues, war

    7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    Killing of the enemy

    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
    10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
    12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    What we see here is what occurs in Rev 7. Saints are killed during a great tribulation from Satan.

    God and his GT wrath

    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    Note the end is coming not another 3.5 years. Abomination is bringing about world desolation by God and his plagues not the killing of saints but the killing of the enemy

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
    This above is the Church Age we are in now, the Sorrows {Birth Pangs} get more frequent until the baby is delivered, likewise these signs will get more frequent until the 70th week judgment of God is delivered to the earth. The Church is taken to Heaven to Marry the Lamb at the Rapture, Israel must repent during the 70th week. Both subsets get to Heaven the EXACT SAME WAY !! There are Jews who get Raptured, and Gentiles who come to Christ during the 70th week. So there is ZERO DIFFERENCE, we must all come unto Christ by FAITH ALONE. Both Jews and Gentiles come unto God on both sides of the Rapture, all by Faith.

    Jesus tells the Disciples how they will die in verse 9, he warns about the many false preachers/teachers/rabies during the 2000 year Church Age. He says when the Gospel has been taken the world over, then the end will come or end times/70th week. Then he goes straight into the Tribulation Period.

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

    Unbelievers flee (saints would fight) note they go to the housetop and remain.

    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    25 Behold, I have told you before.
    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    So it is apparent that the GT mentioned in Matt 24 is NOT a time of killing the saints but the killing of the enemy and desolation to the world due to the abomination of it's leader.
    Verses 15-31 is indeed the Tribulation Period or 70th week, verses 1-14 are not.

    Verse 15 is the Jews who Repent {Woman = Israel} Fleeing like God commands them to do, God PROTECTS them for 1260 days in the Petra/Bozrah area. Believers OBEY God.

    We see THE Anti-Christ and THE False Prophet in verse 24. Verse 5 is the christs the Jews/Pharisees tried to put forth to save them from Rome.....John 5:43 was predicted by Jesus, he told the Pharisees he came in the Fathers name and they would reject him, but another will come in his own name and ye will accept him. They were looking for a conquering hero.

    In verse 11 we see the Church Age Warning of many false teachers and preachers, like David Koresh, Jim Jones, Robert Tilton, The Mormon leader Joseph Smith etc.

    Verse 24 is the AC and FP. Three different time periods.

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I think many are equating the mention of great tribulation in Rev 7 to the one in Matt 24. However they are not the same. The one in Rev 7 is a the hands of the AC wherein the one in Matt 24 is at the hands of God, God's wrath.

    Moreover, the one in Matt 24 is followed immediately by darkness, sun and moon ect at the 2nd coming wherein the one in Rev 7 is not.

    Thus the GT mentioned in Matt 24 is a GREATER tribulation than the one which befalls the saints. One which has never been nor will be.

    If one claims the GT which befalls the saints is the true and only GT then that make the wrath of God GT pail in comparison.

    Again, tribulation is a general term great or not, the qualifier the one in Matt 24 is greater than the one in Rev 7.
    I happen to believe both tribulations, in Matt 24 and in Rev 7, are the same Great Tribulation. Though there are differences, due to there being different contexts for them, they basically refer to the same reality.

    The Great Tribulation is 1st identified in Dan 12, and it follows the Reign of Antiochus. That's when Rome arose to take over Israel, and ultimately cause Israel to lose her temple worship.

    According to Jesus, this is when the Great Tribulation of the Jewish People began, when the temple was destroyed, in 70 AD, and when the Jewish People were scattered abroad. This was the greatest tribulation in Israel's history because it would last longer than any previous punishment inflicted by God upon the Jewish People. It would last until the end of the times of the Gentiles, or until the eschaton.

    The Great Tribulation is portrayed in Rev 7 in the context of an endtimes climax--a time when this age-long Jewish Diaspora would come to a climax. This would take place in the final 3.5 years of the age. This is the time when Israel's punishment finally comes to an end, and Christians in Israel no longer suffer along with their devastated nation.

    In addition, Christians in other nations no longer suffer along with their devastated nations either, because all nations of God go through the exact same process that Israel went through. Israel is, after all, the prototype for all nations of God. They received God's word, accepted it as a nation, began to follow it, and then gradually backslid. Christian nations have gone through the same process, accepting and following the Christian gospel, and gradually departing from it.

    All of this will end in the final 3.5 years of the age, at the end of which Christ will return. He will establish new nations, based on the model of the Christian remnants in those nations. Those who repent in those nations will found Christian states in all of those nations. The Christians who had stood their ground in the present age will lead the charge, and will be the 1st to be redeemed through resurrection.

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Ok...the AC claims to be God, thus his entry onto the scene needs to replicate the 2nd coming. Thus Satan will induce plagues, wars, ect…. to make it appear that the end has come and for his coming "son" to be accepted as the king of kings. So Satan will create a set of plagues (wrath) to mirror God's plagues (wrath) for deception. Thus there will be two sets of plagues one by Satan and one by God. Hence two GT's if you will, however God's will be greater than the first. This event is actually seen playing out in Matt 24.

    Satan and his GT wrath

    Matt 24
    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

    Plagues, war

    7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    Killing of the enemy

    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
    10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
    12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    What we see here is what occurs in Rev 7. Saints are killed during a great tribulation from Satan.

    God and his GT wrath

    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    Note the end is coming not another 3.5 years. Abomination is bringing about world desolation by God and his plagues not the killing of saints but the killing of the enemy

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

    Unbelievers flee (saints would fight) note they go to the housetop and remain.

    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    25 Behold, I have told you before.
    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    So it is apparent that the GT mentioned in Matt 24 is NOT a time of killing the saints but the killing of the enemy and desolation to the world due to the abomination of it's leader.
    In Matthew, verses 4-14 represent one chronology of events until the end of the age.
    Verses 15-30 is a second chronology of events until the end of the age.

    In the first chronology, the things listed are not signs of the end (the end is not yet).
    In the same manner, the signs shown in the 4 horseman of Rev 6 are not signs of the end until death from them becomes greater than 1/4 of the earth.
    Verse 14 is repeated in Rev 14:6 "Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth - to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people..." This is a sign of the end, but end time details in this chronology are scarce!

    In the second chronology, the time of the end is much closer. This one starts with the one and only period of great tribulation.

    When God comes, the end of this age has been reached!

  10. #10
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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Here is a simpler argument for why I believe the great tribulation of Rev 7 is the same as the Matt 24 great tribulation.

    There has to be an anointed holy place for the abomination idol to desecrate - and that holy place can only be anointed at the end of '70 '7's per Dan 9:24. In other words, the end of 70 '7's has to occur before the middle! By the traditional model, this cannot be - the solution is that it means literal weeks & years. Multiple layers simultaneous.

    God's wrath is announced at the 6th Seal - rebellious 'Israel' has broken the covenant in the middle of 1 week. (end of 70 yrs, + 70 weeks, + 7 weeks, + 62 weeks, + 3.5 days to get to Dec 21, 2020. Dan 9:2 & 24-27 starts 1335 days). = Ezekiel 44:7 in admitting foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, to be in my sanctuary, profaning my temple, when you offer to me my food, the fat and the blood. You/ They have broken my covenant, in addition to all your abominations.

    Rebellious Israel would then be punished on the 10th of Tevet by Babylon (people in Judea have to flee because the 10th of Tevet is coming in a few days, where Jerusalem will be attacked, Matt 24:15-21) (Christmas day, 2020) (Ezekiel 24:1-2). Then, it is Babylon's turn to get punished for attacking Jerusalem and is warned for 40 days to repent a la Jonah & Nineveh (starting at dusk Dec 25, 2020 through dusk Feb 3, 2021. People who repent are part of the 'great multitude' & 144,000 of Rev 7 who are 'saved out of the great tribulation' Revelation 7:14.

    The start of the great tribulation is the events of Trumpets 1-4 and is the judgment upon Babylon (the burning mountain of the 2nd Trumpet being a reference to Babylon in Jeremiah 51:25). Here we start the 5 months of the 5th Trumpet & the locusts that cut off the daily sacrifice (Joel 1:4-9). The Medes are attacking Babylon as punishment for Babylon attacking Jerusalem, and that attack was punishment for rebellious Israel/ Jerusalem breaking the covenant by allowing foreigners in the sanctuary.

    Notice that in Revelation 2
    20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works,


    This verse correlates to the 6th Trumpet in Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, 21 nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

    Jezebel/ Mystery Babylon, the 'city that rules the world' (Revelation 17:15-18), is given time to repent, but as the 6th Trumpet notes, they don't repent. The 'great tribulation' was delayed for Mystery Babylon for 5 months, but they don't repent. That day appears to be July 4, 2021, which would 'break the covenant'/ Declaration of Independence in the middle of 70 '7' years/ 245 yrs. July 4, 1776 + 245= July 4, 2021. This would be the start of the great tribulation for the USA/ Mystery Babylon and the start of WWIII apparently. Presumably, the US would go into martial law & the 10 FEMA regions = the 10 horns that burn the whore/ Jezebel/ USA and join the beast.

    The end of WWIII would end with a peace treaty on Oct 31, 2021 (Halloween with an image unto the beast) and seems to result in the start of the 2 witnesses 1260 days which would start on Nov 27, 2021/ 24 Kislev. (the USA would go into the wilderness here)

    the same as Daniel 9:26-27 at the end of the war/ end of WWIII, then there is a covenant
    26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its/ His end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

    27And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week and for half of the week/ in the middle of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
    this covenant seems to be what is going on in Ezekiel 44:8 And you have not kept charge of my holy things, but you have set others to keep my charge for you in my sanctuary. And would correlate to Revelation 11:2's outer court being given over to the Gentiles/ nations. The outer court would be given over to Messiah Ben Joseph & ben David (non- Israeli's) who would presumably have control of burnt animal sacrifices. The inner court would be led by the 2 witnesses.

    The person who is appointing others to take care of the holy things/ people is the worthless shepherd of Zechariah 11:15 Then the Lord said to me, “Take once more the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16For behold, I am raising up in the land a shepherd who does not care for those being destroyed, or seek the young or heal the maimed or nourish the healthy, but devours the flesh of the fat ones, tearing off even their hoofs.

    17“Woe to my worthless shepherd,
    who deserts the flock!
    May the sword strike his arm
    and his right eye!
    Let his arm be wholly withered,
    his right eye utterly blinded!”


    This is the 'mortally head wounded' individual of Revelation 13:3 that is worshiped 3.5 years later at the start of the 7th Trumpet. This has to be a new 'rebellious act' because it is getting 7 more punishments/ 7 bowls of wrath as per Leviticus 26:18 And if in spite of this you will not listen to me, then I will discipline you again sevenfold for your sins,


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/17DD...ew?usp=sharing

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_4A...ew?usp=sharing

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I think many are equating the mention of great tribulation in Rev 7 to the one in Matt 24. However they are not the same. The one in Rev 7 is a the hands of the AC wherein the one in Matt 24 is at the hands of God, God's wrath.
    Neither one is God's wrath. Matthew 24 is a specific time of great tribulation, Rev 7 speaks of any and all great tribulations, Matthew 24 is simply the worst of all great tribulation periods. The last part of Rev 7 is also in the eternity.

    Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
    Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
    Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
    Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
    Here is a major jump in chronology. John now sees a huge multitude of people, all arrayed in white robes which symbolizes righteousness and that they are in spiritual bodies. They have come through "great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" which places this past the tribulation period and into the eternity. This multitude has overcome and have been judged to life.

    Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
    As you can see, the throne is not empty. God the Father is there upon it, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is next to Him and He will be on the right side of the throne.

    This is a major "clue" to documenting just when this happens, for there are only certain times that the full Godhead (where they are, the Holy Spirit is naturally present) will be together like this, especially with a numberless crowd in the white robes of righteousness standing before them and giving praise. In short, this is definitely not happening right after the tribulation but a time after that. The next verses will help to establish just when this actually is.


    Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    Again, this would not be happening directly after the tribulation had ended, which would be the beginning of the millenium for at that time Christ leaves heaven and takes most if not all of heavens angels and returns to the Earth at the 7th trump. Either this verse happens before that happens in heaven, or this is happening the next time Christ is together with God the father which wouldn't be until judgement day, and all time after that.

    Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
    This is comparable to this:

    Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.



    Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    Ok, this is where it gets interesting.


    Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    It is commonly assumed that this coming out "of great tribulation" is a reference to the tribulation of the antichrist and refers to no other tribulation. It actually means any and all tribulations, that these overcame all of them rather than a specific one. There are several "tribulations" that these shall endure through in order to be standing here in white robes praising God. The first one shall be that tribulation hour of the antichrist, then any who took satan's mark will suffer through God's tribulation, which will be all peoples except the elect which is a considerably smaller number than this multitude, and then there is that last testing of satan when he is released from the pit at the end of the millenium and will convince and persuade a great numberless multitude to follow him to war with God. Unfortunately if they choose satan at that time, they shall be judged according to that decision for judgement starts right after that.

    So, there are several times of tribulation, and even that 1000 year period could be considered another time of tribulation for those who must endure through the teaching and the disciplining.

    tribulation
    2347

    2347 thlipsis {thlip'-sis}

    from 2346; TDNT - 3:139,334; n f

    AV - tribulation 21, affliction 17, trouble 3, anguish 1,
    persecution 1, burdened 1, to be afflicted + 1519 1; 45

    1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
    2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits

    Tribulation is just a really rough time, of varying degrees. A time of distress, a time of stress, pressure and so forth.


    Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
    Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
    That is God's tribulation and its something to be avoided.



    Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    If this supposedly happens right after the end of the first tribulation of the antichrist, then this is within the time of the millenium, the 1000 year reign of Christ. Do that many people have access to the temple in the millenium? I'm afraid not, for only the priests of the Zadok shall have access to the temple during that time. There shall not be such a large number of people who can approach the throne, in front of the full Godhead who are clothed as they are being symbolic of purity and righteousness. It also says the one on the throne dwells among them. When does God the Father dwell among mankind like this? The Eternity!

    Rev_21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.


    Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
    This should sound familiar. When is there a time that we should not hunger nor thirst anymore?


    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    In chapter 21 we have passed the time of judgement are are now being given a glimpse of the eternity in the new age with the new Heaven and the new Earth ages beginning.


    Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    This is why we thirst no more. Christ gives unto us the water of life, and it will quench our thirst forever.

    Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And
    let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
    This is something available to those who overcome and are that bride of Christ.


    Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
    This is the tree of life and we shall partake of it's fruits and there will be no hunger. The famine of the end times is for hearing the word of God, but at this time the word of God will be with us forever and we shall never hunger again.


    Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
    Again, this is something that only takes place during the eternity.

    Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
    Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for
    the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

    Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
    Amen, let there be light, the light of Christ.


    Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
    He shall feed us and give us to drink from the waters of life.

    Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
    There is only one time that God dwells with us and wipes away our tears my friends:

    Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is
    with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    There shall be no tears or sorrow at that time because they are of the things that are passed away and do not exist anymore. This only exists during the eternity.

    Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all
    nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the
    Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    This also happens in the eternity.

    Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
    Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
    Revelation 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
    The nations come before throne to honor God and they shall do this to show their love to God.

    In conclusion, Revelation 7:9-end is a glimpse of the eternity as are the latter chapters of Revelation, and this great multitude is there before the throne not simply after the tribulation, but after all tribulations have ended. They have overcome all tribulations they have faced and have been judged to life and are free to worship God forever and partake of all the wonderful things promised to us by God.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    ewq said, "Again, this would not be happening directly after the tribulation had ended, which would be the beginning of the millenium for at that time Christ leaves heaven and takes most if not all of heavens angels and returns to the Earth at the 7th trump. Either this verse happens before that happens in heaven, or this is happening the next time Christ is together with God the father which wouldn't be until judgement day, and all time after that."

    The great tribulation and the millennium are separated by the time of God's wrath, the 7 bowls, the last plagues. Christ won't leave heaven for probably 75 days after the great tribulation.
    In order, there will be:
    Great tribulation 3.5 years
    God's wrath 75 days
    Millennium 1000 years

    ewq said, "Again, this would not be happening directly after the tribulation had ended, which would be the beginning of the millenium for at that time Christ leaves heaven and takes most if not all of heavens angels and returns to the Earth at the 7th trump. Either this verse happens before that happens in heaven, or this is happening the next time Christ is together with God the father which wouldn't be until judgement day, and all time after that."

    The great tribulation and the millennium are separated by the time of God's wrath, the 7 bowls, the last plagues. Christ won't leave heaven for probably 75 days after the great tribulation.
    In order, there will be:
    Great tribulation 3.5 years
    God's wrath 75 days
    Millennium 1000 years

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post

    The great tribulation and the millennium are separated by the time of God's wrath, the 7 bowls, the last plagues. Christ won't leave heaven for probably 75 days after the great tribulation.
    Christ returns immediately at the 7th trump which is the start of the 7 vials of wrath. There is no 75 day delay and Christ does not return after the vials of wrath.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Christ returns immediately at the 7th trump which is the start of the 7 vials of wrath. There is no 75 day delay and Christ does not return after the vials of wrath.
    If Christ returns at the start of the 7 vials of wrath, how is his presence a secret after 6 of the 7 vials have been poured out?

    Rev 16:12 "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared."
    Rev 16:15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Christ returns immediately at the 7th trump which is the start of the 7 vials of wrath. There is no 75 day delay and Christ does not return after the vials of wrath.
    If Christ returns at the start of the 7 vials of wrath, how is his presence a secret after 6 of the 7 vials have been poured out?

    Rev 16:12 "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared."
    Rev 16:15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

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    Re: Clarification needed: The GT mentioned in Rev 7 is NOT the same as in Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    If Christ returns at the start of the 7 vials of wrath, how is his presence a secret after 6 of the 7 vials have been poured out?
    It isn't a secret. They know he is coming and that is his day of wrath and they are afraid, shown in seal 6 and that's when the wrath begins:

    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?




    Rev 16:12 "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared."
    Rev 16:15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

    15 is merely a reminder that he will surprise the unbelieving world when he returns not that he hadn't already arrived in the context of verse 12.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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