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Thread: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

  1. #91
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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The way you write is confusing because I have no clue whether the verses you quoted 3, 17, 7, 8, 8 are from Dan 7 or Rev 6? I'm just too busy to chase shadows. I will be happy to respond when you clarify the Book and chapter you're quoting from.

    Sorry, just know these scriptures and verses and assume those which have a viewpoint on them would also......

    Dan 7
    3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

    17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

    Does not the first four seals represent four kings?

    Dan 7
    7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast,
    8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Does not the fourth seal represent two individuals as well.....

    Rev 6
    8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death (4th beast) , and Hell (Little Horn) followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    An empire is not a "he". Remember that in Rev 17 the beast is explained and it is 7 mountains with ten kingdoms within those mountains. It's only referred to "him" and "he" because masculine and neuter nouns are given masculine pronouns due to grammar rules not because that automatically means a "he" is a person.

    I assume your question was actually directed regarding the identity of the AC and not the empire he rules over. I believe he will be Satan pretending to be Jesus Christ, a false Christ or anti-Christ with the Greek word for anti which can mean "instead of" so Antichrist can be translated instead-of-Christ. He could also be a man possessed by Satan for the same purposes. But, he would be promotion RCC, Judaism or Islam but a false version of Christianity which is why and how the Apostasy happens...a falling away of Christians to a false god whom they misidentify as Jesus Christ.
    The passage refers to the Antichrist. But Rev 17 ...the Mystery, Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth...is the world's false religion. The AC is not Satan, but agent, endued with power by Satan. He never "pretended to be Jesus Christ". Instead, he will claim to be God the Father himself (2 Thess 2:4). It is speculative to say he will promote the RCC, Judaism, Islam or any other religion for that matter. As Rev 17 indicates, he will oppose and attack every established religion. The religion his puppet, the False Prophet will force upon the world is yet unknown.

    And for the record, apostasy has ALREADY BEGAN and will get worse (the falling away) leading to the appearing of the man of sin.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The passage refers to the Antichrist. But Rev 17 ...the Mystery, Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth...is the world's false religion. The AC is not Satan, but agent, endued with power by Satan. He never "pretended to be Jesus Christ". Instead, he will claim to be God the Father himself (2 Thess 2:4). It is speculative to say he will promote the RCC, Judaism, Islam or any other religion for that matter. As Rev 17 indicates, he will oppose and attack every established religion. The religion his puppet, the False Prophet will force upon the world is yet unknown.

    And for the record, apostasy has ALREADY BEGAN and will get worse (the falling away) leading to the appearing of the man of sin.
    Some questions in my thinking here. We know that there have been many antichrists in history, including Mohammad. So is it too much to think that Antichrist will appear as *superior* to Islam? In that case, it might not be reasonable to think that Islam is part of the final empire of Antichrist. What do you think?

    If we look back to the antiChristianity of Europe itself, it is an apostacized form of Christianity itself, whether we call it secular humanism or a corrupted form of Catholicism. Will Antichrist preside over a primarily-European form of antiChristianity?

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The passage refers to the Antichrist. But Rev 17 ...the Mystery, Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth...is the world's false religion.
    It is not a religion. It's a kingdom to portray the KOG. There is no religion in the KOG you serve a God not a religion thus the same for Babylon the Great.

    The AC is not Satan, but agent, endued with power by Satan. He never "pretended to be Jesus Christ".
    Cannot Satan indwell this man?

    He must pretend to be JC/God same difference. You see Lucifer was upset at the start as Christ received the inheritance and not him. Thus he will pose as Christ and counterfeit the kingdom in every way for the world to serve him as God and not Christ.

    Matt 4:8
    8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
    9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Sorry, just know these scriptures and verses and assume those which have a viewpoint on them would also......

    Dan 7
    3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

    17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

    Does not the first four seals represent four kings?
    The 4 Beasts of Dan 7:3 (Lion-Babylon, Bear-Persia, Leopard-Greece and 4th, Rome) has nothing to do with the Beasts 1-4 in Rev 6 which refers to Satan.

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Dan 7
    7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast,
    8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Does not the fourth seal represent two individuals as well.....

    Rev 6
    8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death (4th beast) , and Hell (Little Horn) followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
    Dan 7:8 refers to the Antichrist.
    Rev 6:8 is Satan.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The 4 Beasts of Dan 7:3 (Lion-Babylon, Bear-Persia, Leopard-Greece and 4th, Rome)
    You keep saying the four in Dan 7 are the same in Dan 2 you have proven no scripture other than it is your opinion. Please go thru Dan 7 and align it to the four kingdoms of Dan 2 verse by verse this may help. This should be easy since it was past history. In addition prove the 4th beast is Rome with scriptures. The scriptures never say it is Rome so you cant.. The kingdoms in Dan 7 are unnamed for one reason, they have no name.

    Dan 7:8 refers to the Antichrist.
    So you think Dan 7 is about past kingdoms but then switch thousands of years forward to the end time AC??

    The first 7 verses are past then a gap of unknown thousands of years then verse 8 starts sometime in the future???? c'mon, seriously.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The religion his puppet, the False Prophet will force upon the world is yet unknown.
    The FP is the highest authority with the 7 mountains and ten kingdoms. He is no one's puppet. He is the one we know as the Antichrist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The religion his puppet, the False Prophet will force upon the world is yet unknown.
    The FP is the highest authority with the 7 mountains and ten kingdoms. He is no one's puppet. He is the one we know as the Antichrist.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    You keep saying the four in Dan 7 are the same in Dan 2 you have proven no scripture other than it is your opinion. Please go thru Dan 7 and align it to the four kingdoms of Dan 2 verse by verse this may help. This should be easy since it was past history. In addition prove the 4th beast is Rome with scriptures. The scriptures never say it is Rome so you cant.. The kingdoms in Dan 7 are unnamed for one reason, they have no name.
    You are the one claiming the 4 Beasts of Dan 7 and those in Rev 6 are the same. NOT ME! Learn to proof-read before you post so you don't embarrass and contradict yourself. I see you've suddenly changed from Rev 6 to Dan 2? If you were arguing that the Beasts of Dan 2 and 7 are the same, then I concur. But you started out claiming that Dan 7 and Rev 6 are the same, which they clearly aren't.

    So for clarity; which one are you arguing as the same - Beasts of Dan 2 and 7 or Dan 7 and Rev 6?


    So you think Dan 7 is about past kingdoms but then switch thousands of years forward to the end time AC??
    The first 7 verses are past then a gap of unknown thousands of years then verse 8 starts sometime in the future???? c'mon, seriously.
    You seem ignorant of how prophecy works. Of course, thousands of years can be inserted when God pleases. Dan 7 contains visions of defunct Beast kingdoms (that were future to Daniel when he received the prophecy) and the little horn that is the future AC, separated by indeterminate thousands of years.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Some questions in my thinking here. We know that there have been many antichrists in history, including Mohammad. So is it too much to think that Antichrist will appear as *superior* to Islam? In that case, it might not be reasonable to think that Islam is part of the final empire of Antichrist. What do you think?

    If we look back to the antiChristianity of Europe itself, it is an apostacized form of Christianity itself, whether we call it secular humanism or a corrupted form of Catholicism. Will Antichrist preside over a primarily-European form of antiChristianity?
    The assumption that Islam will become part of the Antichrist's religion (I refrain from using "kingdom" since a kingdom is not a religion) presupposes that he (AC) will claim to be Allah. For me, that's neither here nor there. I don't want to go off into conjecture town on this. What I consider a certainty albeit, some will put it down as speculative is that with him claiming to be god, surely his False Prophet will come up with a "religion" which the world will be forced to adhere to?

    Now, whether such a religion will be Islam or something yet unknown is still up in the air.

    There is but one Church. Therefore, those who are Christian in name only are no different from the atheist and will receive their due recompense. Jesus told unbelieving Israel that they will be cast into outer darkness where there will wailing and gnashing of teeth. IOW, their fate is no different from that of the unbelieving Gentile. So apostate Europe may bask in the glory of being culturally Christian, but the one that never repented and came back to faith at the time of death, have their fate sealed forever.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    It is not a religion. It's a kingdom to portray the KOG. There is no religion in the KOG you serve a God not a religion thus the same for Babylon the Great.
    I said that MYSTERY BABYLON in Rev 17 is the embodiment of all the world's false religion and you claim it's the KOG. Are you sure? So why would God allow the 10 horns of the Beast to destroy it (Rev 17:16)?

    Cannot Satan indwell this man?

    He must pretend to be JC/God same difference. You see Lucifer was upset at the start as Christ received the inheritance and not him. Thus he will pose as Christ and counterfeit the kingdom in every way for the world to serve him as God and not Christ.

    Matt 4:8
    8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
    9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
    I don't know about your Bible, but mine NEVER said that Satan or the AC will claim to be Jesus. My Bible says he will claim to be God, i.e. a position higher than Jesus.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    My Bible says he will claim to be God, i.e. a position higher than Jesus.
    Jesus is God. Never does the bible specify that the AC claims to be God the Father but simply claims to be "God" which means he can be claiming to be God the Son. Ever heard of a false Christ? Jesus said there would be many. Certainly the AC can be one of them.

    Mat_24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    Mat_24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    Obviously these verses are addressing someone others think is Christ but it won't be the real Christ.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The FP is the highest authority with the 7 mountains and ten kingdoms. He is no one's puppet. He is the one we know as the Antichrist.
    Really?

    Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
    Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first [the AC] beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly was healed.


    1. The horn of a lamb is naturally small and as *horn* signifies strength and power in prophecy, this plainly indicates that the FP is subordinate to the first Beast, the Antichrist.
    2. Notice in v-13 that he exercises the power of the first beast? Meaning that he draws spiritual power from the AC who in turn is empowered by Satan.

    How can you read this and deny that he's a puppet of the AC?

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Jesus is God. Never does the bible specify that the AC claims to be God the Father but simply claims to be "God" which means he can be claiming to be God the Son. Ever heard of a false Christ? Jesus said there would be many. Certainly the AC can be one of them.

    Mat_24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    Mat_24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    Obviously these verses are addressing someone others think is Christ but it won't be the real Christ.
    Yes, Jesus is God so by claiming to be god, the AC might as well be claiming to be Jesus.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Really?

    Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
    Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first [the AC] beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly was healed.


    1. The horn of a lamb is naturally small and as *horn* signifies strength and power in prophecy, this plainly indicates that the FP is subordinate to the first Beast, the Antichrist.
    Like how the little horn in Daniel is subordinate to the other horns because he's "little"?


    2. Notice in v-13 that he exercises the power of the first beast? Meaning that he draws spiritual power from the AC who in turn is empowered by Satan.

    No, it means he is in full control of the first beast and has all of it's power.



    How can you read this and deny that he's a puppet of the AC?
    "And he exerciseth all the power of the first "

    The FP excerciseth all the power of the first beast. The FP is the leader in full control. He isn't a puppet, he is the puppet master. Yes he wants people to worship the first beast which is the empire he rules over. It's no different than Hitler wanting people to worship the Nazi empire...it reflects worship directly to himself as well since Hitler created the whole thing. Same with Rome and Caesar or any leader and his empire.

    The first beast is 10 kingdoms within 7 mountains.

    The second beast is a man, an individual that has full power of the first beast and orders worship, an image made, gives life to that image, performs miracles, and forces all to take a mark....he is clearly the only one in Rev that can fulfill the role of Antichrist since there isn't anyone else singled out.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Cool Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Randy, it does not say different than anything it says different than the previous three beasts. Daniel 7:8 ties in with Revelation 13.
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not really clear on what you're saying? I hold to the historic position of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. All 4 kingdoms fit in nicely with the book of Daniel. We have Babylon as the "Head of Gold" in Nebuchadnezzar's Dream--Dan 2. We have Persia in control when Daniel faces off the lions in the lion's den--Dan 6. We have Alexander the Great and Greece in Daniel's Vision in ch. 8. And we have Rome as the Army in Dan 9 who desolates "the city and the sanctuary."

    All 4 Beasts finished their initial work by the time of Christ's earthly ministry. Rome's destructive work against Jerusalem and the temple immediately followed Christ's death on the cross, about 40 years later.

    But the 4th Kingdom, we read, continues on until the establishment of the Kingdom of the Son of Man--Dan 7. And so we *must* view Rome, in this line of interpretation, as a continuing presence throughout the NT age. And that's how I interpret it. We do have the fall of Rome in 476 AD. But Rome's Kingdom continued, in both East and West. And the imperial tradition continued in the East for a thousand years, until 1453 AD.

    And as Dan 7 indicates, the 4th Beast, if it is Rome, breaks up into 10 smaller kingdoms, who fight and are divided over the imperial tradition. Imperialism was reestablished in the West by Charlemagne in Gaul, in 800 AD. In the East, the Byzantine Empire fell to the Ottomans, but the tradition of empire continued, later, in the Russian Empire--1721 AD. After all, Czar means Caesar!
    I am sorry Randy this should have been addressed to Eqw1938. You are in line with what I have.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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