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Thread: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

  1. #61
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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    No I don't...…why can't the four horseman (kings) represent the four beast (kings)?????
    Simply because the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse in Rev 6 has nothing to do with the Beasts in Dan 7.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Simply because the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse in Rev 6 has nothing to do with the Beasts in Dan 7.
    Simply? You need to give more of a reason.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I agree that the Holy Spirit is the ultimate teacher and revealer of truth; only I'm not convinced in this case that the H.S. has a hand in your rendition of the prophecy because you couldn't be further from the truth.

    I think you are fixated with a fable centred around the Vatican and American politics as the answer to the prophecy. However, I don't see how it relates since Dan 7:20 connects the fall of the 3 kings to the time of the Antichrist.

    Are you really serious about this? I dismay to think you are even half serious.

    Your patriotism and America's place in the world stage is admirable. But unfortunately, human politics is not the same as God's divine plans revealed through prophecy. You are not the first American to force the USA into scripture when that is uncalled for. Among your numerous mistakes is that claim a fire from heaven is synonymous with a bomb dropped by plane as claimed that Harry Truman fulfilled that in WWII.

    It's obvious you have a proclivity of replacing some scriptural messages with a fantasy. For example, even baby Christians recognise that the 2nd Beast of Rev 13:11-18 is the False Prophet. Yet despite professing 25 years of study, you still believe it is the US?

    Furthermore, there's no such thing as "sea beasts" and "earth beasts" in Dan 7 and Rev 13. The prophecy has 10 kings/horns and another (11th) said to be different from the others, yet by your account, the US presidents you've introduced into the fray has reached 15 - from Truman to Trump/Pence!

    Yea, this has really grieved me. I *hate* to break it to brothers who love prophecy, as I do, that they're engaged in the common error of presumption, applying biblical prophecies to contemporary situations in a very detailed way. How many times have we heard that the Antichrist is this political leader, or that political leader? They can't all be "led by the Holy Spirit," even if they've followed the Lord for a lifetime!

    I've had to face this danger in my own life, and so I've utilized a system to counteract this possible tendency. I try to rely on strictly what the Scriptures say, without projecting too far beyond this. Some things we simply have to guess on, but we should, in those cases, always remain guarded and open to correction.

  4. #64
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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Simply because the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse in Rev 6 has nothing to do with the Beasts in Dan 7.
    I agree. I suppose most any hypothetical interpretation is allowed. But the image of 4 horsemen seem more allied with Zech 1 and 6 than with Dan 7. My own view is that the horsemen represent angels who are preparing the way for the Lord's Kingdom. They are bringing various judgments to enable the Kingdom to come, reducing the power of the sinful world to prevent their obstruction of God's plans.

    I would have to say that just because Zechariah uses the same symbols of "horses," as the 7 seals in Revelation, does not mean they foretell the same events. The symbols just show how they are used, as agents of God's battle plan. Angels may use human armies to accomplish God's plans, or they may use other earthly means to impose their judgments.

    On the other hand, the 4 Beasts began with Babylon, and end with Rome. And the 4th Kingdom, Rome, continues to the present day, because Daniel indicated that Rome would be divided into 10 kings, who themselves would be divided among themselves.

    Antichrist will impose his leadership over them all, having "7 heads and 10 horns." I believe this will be 10 kingdoms and 7 kings, 3 kings having been defeated. Often "king" and "kingdom" are synonymous terms. In this case, "7 heads" refer specifically to individual kings. This is purely speculative.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yea, this has really grieved me. I *hate* to break it to brothers who love prophecy, as I do, that they're engaged in the common error of presumption, applying biblical prophecies to contemporary situations in a very detailed way. How many times have we heard that the Antichrist is this political leader, or that political leader? They can't all be "led by the Holy Spirit," even if they've followed the Lord for a lifetime!

    I've had to face this danger in my own life, and so I've utilized a system to counteract this possible tendency. I try to rely on strictly what the Scriptures say, without projecting too far beyond this. Some things we simply have to guess on, but we should, in those cases, always remain guarded and open to correction.
    I also worry about the danger posed by this type of interpretation because a new believer might take it to be true, especially when the writer says he's studied the scripture for 25 years, etc.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I also worry about the danger posed by this type of interpretation because a new believer might take it to be true, especially when the writer says he's studied the scripture for 25 years, etc.
    The 1st commentary I read on Revelation was by a scholar named Lenske. I read it way back in perhaps 1971. Everything the guy said I believed, and transmitted to others. I was excited! I held to this view until the very next commentary I read on Revelation, at which time I realized that not every interpretation is necessarily the right one!

    Perhaps in 1972 I read Hal Linday's commentary on Bible Prophecy, "The Late Great Planet Earth." This was so popular among Dispensationalists--and my own church at that time was Dispensationalist--that I immediately began to apply biblical prophecy to the present time. This is when I thought the Olivet Discourse applied to the Last Generation.

    A year later, or so, my brother convinced me to memorize Scriptures. I memorized 2 Thessalonians, which convinced me that Lindsay's Pretribulationism was wrong, making all of his interpretations suspect to me.

    Now, almost 50 years later, I've read many commentaries on Revelation, and know that it is pure lunacy to believe that any given interpretation is right, unless there is very explicit Bible behind it.

    It's okay to propagate what you believe to be true. But we should encourage the willingness to "change our mind," so that we don't get stuck in *pride,* which is the most dangerous thing of all.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The 1st commentary I read on Revelation was by a scholar named Lenske. I read it way back in perhaps 1971. Everything the guy said I believed, and transmitted to others. I was excited! I held to this view until the very next commentary I read on Revelation, at which time I realized that not every interpretation is necessarily the right one!

    Perhaps in 1972 I read Hal Linday's commentary on Bible Prophecy, "The Late Great Planet Earth." This was so popular among Dispensationalists--and my own church at that time was Dispensationalist--that I immediately began to apply biblical prophecy to the present time. This is when I thought the Olivet Discourse applied to the Last Generation.

    A year later, or so, my brother convinced me to memorize Scriptures. I memorized 2 Thessalonians, which convinced me that Lindsay's Pretribulationism was wrong, making all of his interpretations suspect to me.

    Now, almost 50 years later, I've read many commentaries on Revelation, and know that it is pure lunacy to believe that any given interpretation is right, unless there is very explicit Bible behind it.

    It's okay to propagate what you believe to be true. But we should encourage the willingness to "change our mind," so that we don't get stuck in *pride,* which is the most dangerous thing of all.
    You couldn't have said it better. And I don't think you are alone in believing what you read earlier in your Christian journey. Many impressionable new converts are often susceptible to believing anything especially if it came from a source that is ostensibly knowledgeable.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You couldn't have said it better. And I don't think you are alone in believing what you read earlier in your Christian journey. Many impressionable new converts are often susceptible to believing anything especially if it came from a source that is ostensibly knowledgeable.
    The why do you both still hold to the Rome delusion???

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    Cool Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I know that the scripture didn't provide a specific clue of where the end-time antichrist will come from. He may come from Europe or the Arab nations, so Muslim caliphate leaders as the Antichrist is borderline conjecture.
    Those that say antichrist can be a political leader or a Muslim leader are missing the boat. Antichrist must falsely represent Christ. Just think about it, why would it be labeled as such. Antichrist is a fake Christianity and is embodied in the popes down through history. Pope = Vicar of Christ = In place of Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Simply because the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse in Rev 6 has nothing to do with the Beasts in Dan 7.
    The beast of Daniel 7 are Babylon, Medo-Persian, Alexander (with the four heads-generals taking over) and Rome.

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The why do you both still hold to the Rome delusion???
    There is no delusion, it is Rome.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The why do you both still hold to the Rome delusion???
    I'm not sure what the "Rome delusion" is??

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    The last and final beast empire will not be like the ones that came before it. Why all this talk about Rome or Islam? What is coming is new, different than anything before and so will it's leader.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Cool Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    The last and final beast empire will not be like the ones that came before it. Why all this talk about Rome or Islam? What is coming is new, different than anything before and so will it's leader.
    Randy, it does not say different than anything it says different than the previous three beasts. Daniel 7:8 ties in with Revelation 13.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The why do you both still hold to the Rome delusion???
    I beg your pardon? Would you mind quoting my supposed "hold to the Rome delusion"?

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Those that say antichrist can be a political leader or a Muslim leader are missing the boat. Antichrist must falsely represent Christ. Just think about it, why would it be labeled as such. Antichrist is a fake Christianity and is embodied in the popes down through history. Pope = Vicar of Christ = In place of Christ.
    Sorry, I'm unable to accept your version of what "Antichrist" means. The antichrists [plural] may project themselves as the CHRIST according to Matt 24:24. However, the Antichrist [singular] never claimed to be Christ, rather he blasphemed against God (Rev 6:13) and claimed to be God (2 Thess 2:4). IOW, he appropriates for himself a position higher than Jesus - the Godhead himself.

    This madman will oppose every established religion including Islam and Christianity. It is however arguable that his false prophet may even come from the RCC or elsewhere.

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    Re: The subdued 3 Kings of Dan 7

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Simply? You need to give more of a reason.
    Read Dan 7 and Rev 6 and you'll find little or no corroboration between them.

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