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  1. #61
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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    To clarify my positions

    I see revelation written in the early 60's of the first century

    The beast in Daniel 9 as Antiochus Epiphanies

    The beast in Revelation as Rome mainly Nero

    The temple in 2 Thess 2 as the church Nero declared himself god over everything including the church


    In Matthew 24


    The temple destruction and the abomination as Rome destroying I in 70AD

    The sign of the son of man (sign being a key word) as Jesus coming in judgement on Jerusalem in 70AD

    The gathering of the elect as the ones Jesus chose to survive the siege of Jerusalem
    The Maker of language is God. It is His Prime method of transmitting His ideas to men. For this, we have rules in language, and we use them to get the right meaning. If I say, "The boy got punched and his nose bled", I transmit that idea. No-one would disagree with me that it was a male of young age, violence ensued, a second party was involved in the violence, a fist was used, the blow ruptured blood vessels, it happened in the past, and the word "and" shows a sequence. When we come to scripture, are we not bound to apply this same way with even more care?

    If our Lord was asked three questions and sets out to answer them, shall we not give the meaning as His answer, and not take a random approach? What if I said that your answer above does not show the breeding habits of sharks? You will question my sanity for you meant nothing about sharks. So too the Words of God. Are we not bound to apply them within their literal meaning as far as possible, and apply them within their context. Our Lord Jesus broached the subject of the Temple BEFORE the questions were asked. What follows is His answer to questions that came IN ADDITION to the issue of the Temple. Strengthening this is the fact that ...
    • The Temple is never again mentioned in our Lord's answer
    • The war of Jewish insurrection of 70 AD is never mentioned
    • The issue of false Christs continues till today
    • The issue of nation warring with nation is only valid after the military collapse of Rome. Until then Roman had conquered all nations
    • The issue of being hated by all nations only became an issue after Israel started to dwell among these nations - that is, after 70 AD
    • All these are only the BEGINNING of sorrows - not the sorrow itself
    • The context is not the Temple but the end of the age and the coming of Christ
    • The context is Daniel 9:27 where the Covenant is confirmed (and/or "strengthened), not torn down
    • The context is the gathering of Israel not its scattering
    • The context is the Fig Tree blossoming not withering (24:32)
    • The context is the "summer", not the winter of Israel
    • The context is the Coming of our Lord to take some servants and leave other of His servants (24:32 - 25:30)
    • The context is the judging of His servants. This only takes place when He returns (Matt.25:19)
    • The context is the setting up of Christ's throne of His glory on earth and His judging the nations (25:31-46)
    • The context of the Book of Matthew is the Kingdom, how children of the Kingdom must behave (Chapters 5-7), how the growth of the Kingdom will look in this age (Chapter 13), the forsaking of Israel by Israel's King (Matt.21:43), the building of a New People worthy of the Kingdom (Chapter 16 & 18), the various parables about the rewards and loss of Servants of the kingdom, and how the kingdom comes when the King comes.
    • The context of the Abomination of Desolation is in the last half a week of God's recovery of Daniel's People


    I think, after examining most of the points of view in my studies over the years, I am familiar with yours. But maybe I haven't heard al the arguments for and against. Why not lay forth, in some sort of exegesis, why Lord's answer to His disciples must concern 70 AD and not His Second Coming.

    Thanks and God bless.

  2. #62
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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Well you clearly are not paying attention to scripture but to some script theology which my friend is in error and dangerous to promote.

    8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
    This was my study on the two witnesses

    I believe the two witnesses to be symbolic of the prophets and the law which point to Jesus. Why does God call them the two witnesses? Why the term witness? That means that they had to witness something. Is it because they witnesses and pointed to Jesus?

    It took two witnesses to witness a testimony and two witnesses to witness a crime. Could the testimony be about who Jesus is and the crime be what Israel was guilty of?

    Mosses represents the law and like the witnesses turned water into blood and struck the earth with all types of plagues. Elijah represents the prophets and like the witnesses he could shut the sky up so that it couldnít rain and had fire devour his enemies. These two are the two olive trees and are also the two golden lamp stands the two anointed ones that stand before the lord. This is referred to in Zechariah chapter 4 and Jesus is also the anointed one.

    Could the fire out of there mouths be the word that has power to condemn and convict. They are also dressed in sackcloth which represents repentance. Jews reading this would understand the meanings.

    They mirror Jesusí life as they also have a 3 Ĺ year ministry and canít be killed until there time has come. They are killed by the beast (which I believe is a demon behind the power of Rome) and Rome also killed Jesus. They are killed in Jerusalem just like Jesus was. They are also dead for 3 Ĺ days like Jesus was and they are raised back to life and go up to heaven. Both Jesus and the two witnesses had earthquakes around the time of there death and there was also an earthquake when Jesus rose back to life.

    Why is it 7000 people that died in the earthquake? Why the number 7000? Is it because 7 is the number of completeness and perfection to God and 1000 means many. It also says in Revelation 11:13 that people gave glory to God after the earthquake just like some people realized that Jesus was the son of God after the earthquake when Jesus died.

    Why is Jerusalem also called Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11:8. Because Sodom represents the morality of Jerusalem and Egypt represents the oppression of Jerusalem.

    These two witnesses torment people with the word as there words torment and convicts people just like Jesus words did. The Pharisees were happy when Jesus died because he exposed them for who they were and they may of even gave gifts to one another when they celebrated His death.

    Revelation is the unveiling of Jesus and these two witnesses help to reveal to us who Jesus is.

  3. #63
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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    This was my study on the two witnesses

    I believe the two witnesses to be symbolic of the prophets and the law which point to Jesus. Why does God call them the two witnesses? Why the term witness? That means that they had to witness something. Is it because they witnesses and pointed to Jesus?

    It took two witnesses to witness a testimony and two witnesses to witness a crime. Could the testimony be about who Jesus is and the crime be what Israel was guilty of?

    Mosses represents the law and like the witnesses turned water into blood and struck the earth with all types of plagues. Elijah represents the prophets and like the witnesses he could shut the sky up so that it couldnít rain and had fire devour his enemies. These two are the two olive trees and are also the two golden lamp stands the two anointed ones that stand before the lord. This is referred to in Zechariah chapter 4 and Jesus is also the anointed one.

    Could the fire out of there mouths be the word that has power to condemn and convict. They are also dressed in sackcloth which represents repentance. Jews reading this would understand the meanings.

    They mirror Jesusí life as they also have a 3 Ĺ year ministry and canít be killed until there time has come. They are killed by the beast (which I believe is a demon behind the power of Rome) and Rome also killed Jesus. They are killed in Jerusalem just like Jesus was. They are also dead for 3 Ĺ days like Jesus was and they are raised back to life and go up to heaven. Both Jesus and the two witnesses had earthquakes around the time of there death and there was also an earthquake when Jesus rose back to life.

    Why is it 7000 people that died in the earthquake? Why the number 7000? Is it because 7 is the number of completeness and perfection to God and 1000 means many. It also says in Revelation 11:13 that people gave glory to God after the earthquake just like some people realized that Jesus was the son of God after the earthquake when Jesus died.

    Why is Jerusalem also called Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11:8. Because Sodom represents the morality of Jerusalem and Egypt represents the oppression of Jerusalem.

    These two witnesses torment people with the word as there words torment and convicts people just like Jesus words did. The Pharisees were happy when Jesus died because he exposed them for who they were and they may of even gave gifts to one another when they celebrated His death.

    Revelation is the unveiling of Jesus and these two witnesses help to reveal to us who Jesus is.
    A very good teacher I had many years ago wrote a little booklet in which she expressed the belief that the 2 Witnesses represented the Church and Israel. This kind of symbolic interpretation I find interesting, and yet I have no way of pinning down if this is what was meant! I only assume a more literal position if for no other reason that I can find little basis for knowing *for sure* what is being talked about. The 2 olive trees in Zech 4 clearly represented 2 individuals. But what the 2 Witnesses represent I can't claim to know for sure. However, there is indeed a lot of symbolism in the Revelation!

  4. #64
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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The Maker of language is God. It is His Prime method of transmitting His ideas to men. For this, we have rules in language, and we use them to get the right meaning. If I say, "The boy got punched and his nose bled", I transmit that idea. No-one would disagree with me that it was a male of young age, violence ensued, a second party was involved in the violence, a fist was used, the blow ruptured blood vessels, it happened in the past, and the word "and" shows a sequence. When we come to scripture, are we not bound to apply this same way with even more care?

    If our Lord was asked three questions and sets out to answer them, shall we not give the meaning as His answer, and not take a random approach? What if I said that your answer above does not show the breeding habits of sharks? You will question my sanity for you meant nothing about sharks. So too the Words of God. Are we not bound to apply them within their literal meaning as far as possible, and apply them within their context. Our Lord Jesus broached the subject of the Temple BEFORE the questions were asked. What follows is His answer to questions that came IN ADDITION to the issue of the Temple. Strengthening this is the fact that ...
    • The Temple is never again mentioned in our Lord's answer
    • The war of Jewish insurrection of 70 AD is never mentioned
    • The issue of false Christs continues till today
    • The issue of nation warring with nation is only valid after the military collapse of Rome. Until then Roman had conquered all nations
    • The issue of being hated by all nations only became an issue after Israel started to dwell among these nations - that is, after 70 AD
    • All these are only the BEGINNING of sorrows - not the sorrow itself
    • The context is not the Temple but the end of the age and the coming of Christ
    • The context is Daniel 9:27 where the Covenant is confirmed (and/or "strengthened), not torn down
    • The context is the gathering of Israel not its scattering
    • The context is the Fig Tree blossoming not withering (24:32)
    • The context is the "summer", not the winter of Israel
    • The context is the Coming of our Lord to take some servants and leave other of His servants (24:32 - 25:30)
    • The context is the judging of His servants. This only takes place when He returns (Matt.25:19)
    • The context is the setting up of Christ's throne of His glory on earth and His judging the nations (25:31-46)
    • The context of the Book of Matthew is the Kingdom, how children of the Kingdom must behave (Chapters 5-7), how the growth of the Kingdom will look in this age (Chapter 13), the forsaking of Israel by Israel's King (Matt.21:43), the building of a New People worthy of the Kingdom (Chapter 16 & 18), the various parables about the rewards and loss of Servants of the kingdom, and how the kingdom comes when the King comes.
    • The context of the Abomination of Desolation is in the last half a week of God's recovery of Daniel's People


    I think, after examining most of the points of view in my studies over the years, I am familiar with yours. But maybe I haven't heard al the arguments for and against. Why not lay forth, in some sort of exegesis, why Lord's answer to His disciples must concern 70 AD and not His Second Coming.

    Thanks and God bless.
    This was my Matthew 24 study it may help you understand my points

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...hat-generation

  5. #65
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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I believe the two witnesses to be symbolic of the prophets and the law
    As already shown the two witnesses are clearly two prophets and two physical bodies which die are resurrected.

    These two are the two olive trees and are also the two golden lamp stands the two anointed ones that stand before the lord.
    Did you know there are 7 candlesticks (lamp stands). Revelation says these candlesticks are the 7 churches. Along with theses 7 are also 7 stars which are the angels of the 7 churches. These stars/angels are also anointed ones. Thus the two witnesses are two of the 7 angels of the churches. They are angelic beings standing before God and his throne.

    They mirror Jesus’ life as they also have a 3 Ĺ year ministry and can’t be killed until there time has come. They are killed in Jerusalem just like Jesus was. They are also dead for 3 Ĺ days like Jesus was and they are raised back to life and go up to heaven. Both Jesus and the two witnesses had earthquakes around the time of there death and there was also an earthquake when Jesus rose back to life.
    This is the major key in understanding who exactly who are these two anointed ones. You see these two are part of the Lamb himself. They are 7 horns of the Lamb and though part of the lamb subject to him.

    Rev 5
    6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


    These two anointed ones are two of the 7 Spirits of God sent forth to witness unto all the earth. These 7 in total are the 7 angels of Revelations whom are witnessing to all of us. They are part of the Lamb thus all the qualities which you have mentioned above, key being they are resurrected after 3 days unlike no man. These 2 Spirits of God, these 2 anointed ones, these two angels of the churches are ...……..

    Michael and Gabriel.

    They have been the two prophets which have witnessed all along in the OT and sure to be the ones appearing as men in Sodom.. Like the days of Sodom they too will appear again as men and be the two witnesses before all the earth. Yes their bodies die but are resurrected. (like Christ).

    Luke 1:9
    And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

    Dan 12
    12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:

  6. #66
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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The 2 olive trees in Zech 4 clearly represented 2 individuals. But what the 2 Witnesses represent I can't claim to know for sure. However, there is indeed a lot of symbolism in the Revelation!
    Just another angle and support for Michael and Gabriel as the 2Ws.

    Zech 4
    11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
    12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
    13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
    14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

    Rev 1
    12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
    13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

    20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.



    Thus the two olive trees bring forth the oil in which go thru the golden pipes (candlesticks). Now there are 7 candlesticks in total so are there really 7 olive trees or only these two? Not the point, the point is to see the association with pipes/candlesticks and the to the 7 angels. The two trees being anointed individuals then are two of the 7 angels. This is then where we can make the connection to Michael and Gabriel angelic beings as the two witnesses. Then we can continue to associates these 2 with the 7 Spirits of God upon the Lamb who are sent to witnesses.

    Now we can even take a step further to detail what the 7 Spirts of God represent. If we notice that in the case of two of them "golden oil" come forth, then what does oil represent? I will leave it a that.

  7. #67
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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Just another angle and support for Michael and Gabriel as the 2Ws.

    Zech 4
    11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
    12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
    13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
    14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

    Rev 1
    12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
    13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

    20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.



    Thus the two olive trees bring forth the oil in which go thru the golden pipes (candlesticks). Now there are 7 candlesticks in total so are there really 7 olive trees or only these two? Not the point, the point is to see the association with pipes/candlesticks and the to the 7 angels. The two trees being anointed individuals then are two of the 7 angels. This is then where we can make the connection to Michael and Gabriel angelic beings as the two witnesses. Then we can continue to associates these 2 with the 7 Spirits of God upon the Lamb who are sent to witnesses.

    Now we can even take a step further to detail what the 7 Spirts of God represent. If we notice that in the case of two of them "golden oil" come forth, then what does oil represent? I will leave it a that.
    Yes, the 2 Witnesses are 2 lampstands, and may be comparable to the lampstand in Zech 4 and to the 7 lampstands in Rev 1. I see the "2 trees" in Zech 4 as being men, Zerubbabel and Joshua. And so, I see the 2 Witnesses as men, as well. They appear in the ministry of Moses and Elijah, but I don't believe these are actually those men.

    I can see your argument, that they are angels, because the 7 stars are 7 angels, and the 7 lampstands are the 7 churches. You are comparing the 7 stars to the 2 witnesses, which would make them all angels. I have a problem with this inasmuch as the 2 Witnesses are put to death. I don't see this happening to angels. But yes, there's an "open field" in how to approach this.

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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I have a problem with this inasmuch as the 2 Witnesses are put to death. I don't see this happening to angels. But yes, there's an "open field" in how to approach this.
    Angels are spirts and can never die., likewise our spirits. However we have bodies which do die. Likewise these angels will inhabit bodies as in Sodom. The body can die but not the spirit.

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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    As already shown the two witnesses are clearly two prophets and two physical bodies which die are resurrected.



    Did you know there are 7 candlesticks (lamp stands). Revelation says these candlesticks are the 7 churches. Along with theses 7 are also 7 stars which are the angels of the 7 churches. These stars/angels are also anointed ones. Thus the two witnesses are two of the 7 angels of the churches. They are angelic beings standing before God and his throne.



    This is the major key in understanding who exactly who are these two anointed ones. You see these two are part of the Lamb himself. They are 7 horns of the Lamb and though part of the lamb subject to him.

    Rev 5
    6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


    These two anointed ones are two of the 7 Spirits of God sent forth to witness unto all the earth. These 7 in total are the 7 angels of Revelations whom are witnessing to all of us. They are part of the Lamb thus all the qualities which you have mentioned above, key being they are resurrected after 3 days unlike no man. These 2 Spirits of God, these 2 anointed ones, these two angels of the churches are ...……..

    Michael and Gabriel.

    They have been the two prophets which have witnessed all along in the OT and sure to be the ones appearing as men in Sodom.. Like the days of Sodom they too will appear again as men and be the two witnesses before all the earth. Yes their bodies die but are resurrected. (like Christ).

    Luke 1:9
    And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

    Dan 12
    12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
    The seven spirts and seven horns are actually the Holy Spirit notice He isn’t mentioned anywhere else during that scene in heaven

    Why was Michael and Gabriel not named if they are the two witnesses as they are named elsewhere in the bible?

  10. #70
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    Re: Question

    Instead of trying to identify "the two witnesses" I find it more important to accurately understand what the "two witnesses" are, and ARE NOT.



    Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


    "the two olive trees" AND "the two candlesticks"


    As you see, there are two of one thing and two of another.



    ------------------one witness------------second witness------------
    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

    We have 4 altogether that compose the "two witness".

    So what are olive trees?


    Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?


    "What are these two olive trees"


    Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
    Zechariah 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
    Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


    "These are the two anointed ones"


    And olive trees represent anointed people. So, the two olive trees that form ONE WITNESS are two individuals that have been anointed.


    Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


    Two anointed ones. To be anointed simply means to be blessed with the gifts of the Holy spirit, especially with knowledge which includes knowledge of the future known as prophecy. "ones" means individuals, there are two individuals being spoken of.

    ones:

    1121

    01121 ben {bane}

    from 01129; TWOT - 254; n m

    AV - son 2978, children 1568, old 135, first 51, man 20, young 18,
    young + 01241 17, child 10, stranger 10, people 5, misc 92; 4906

    1) son, grandson, child, member of a group
    1a) son, male child
    1b) grandson
    1c) children (pl. - male and female)
    1d) youth, young men (pl.)
    1e) young (of animals)
    1f) sons (as characterisation, ie sons of injustice [for un-
    righteous men] or sons of God [for angels]
    1g) people (of a nation) (pl.)
    1h) of lifeless things, ie sparks, stars, arrows (fig.)
    1i) a member of a guild, order, class

    ----------------one witness--------------second witness------------
    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


    What are the two candlesticks?

    Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


    "and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches"


    Candlesticks represent churches which are groups of Christians.







    Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


    so to add what we know:


    Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Revelation 11:4 These are the two [anointed ones], AND the two [churches] standing before the God of the earth.

    According to scripture, the two witnesses are two churches (candlesticks) AND two persons (olives trees). One witness is the two churches, the other witness is the two persons. Many believe it is Elijah and Enoch but who they are or aren't is another discussion.




    When scripture refers to the two "olive trees" and we learn that olive trees represent "anointed ones" then we know these two olive trees are in fact two "anointed ones" which is simply two anointed people or persons...but there's more:


    Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


    Here only the two olive trees are called the two prophets. Prophets are individuals, in fact they are males. Two male prophets which are anointed by God to give prophetic messages.


    Since its also scriptural fact that candlesticks are churches we then have this:


    Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees [the two anointed prophets], and the two candlesticks [two churches] standing before the God of the earth.


    Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


    If you wish to speak of the two prophets which are killed by the antichrist/beast and are raised back to life by God, it is incorrect to refer to them as the "two witnesses" since the scriptures do not. They are referred to as one of the two witnesses, the two olive trees which are two anointed individuals ie: the two prophets.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    This was my Matthew 24 study it may help you understand my points

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...hat-generation
    Your view in the thread you gave is based on the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    The disciples asked Jesus three questions in Mt 24:3

    When will this happen ? (the destruction of the temple)

    What will be the sign of your coming? (to bring judgment to Jerusalem)

    And the sign of the end of the age? (the end of Temple age)

    Mark chapter 13, Luke chapter 21 are other versions of the Olivet discourse.

    Jesus used this generation in the book of Matthew Ch 23:36 and ch 24:34
    In it you added the understanding that is disputed in brackets as if it were already settled. But it is not. That is what we discuss.

    In the first question of Matthew 24:3, it is not "when will THIS THING (the destruction of the Temple) happen?. It is "THESE THINGS". Our Lord Jesus had been together with His disciples for three and a half years. He had taught them by parable and by direct statement of what the prophets predicted - that is, MANY THINGS. Our Lord's answer concerns FOUR major THINGS and the Temple was never mentioned.

    The second question is NOT "what is the events of the end of the age", but what is the "sign" of the end of the age. This would be then the Abomination of Desolation since all that went before is only the beginning of sorrows. And, as I said in my previous posting, this argument collapses on all points.

    The third question is the "sign" of His Coming. What ever this "sign" is is the subject of much speculation, for scripture does not say. But what is important is that the "sign" is followed by His COMING. Now, scripture uses three main words for this event. "Parousia" is His "PRESENCE", "Apokalypsis" is His "revealing" or His "manifestation", and "Erchomai" is His "ARRIVAL". The word used in Matthew 24 is ERCHOMAI - His "ARRIVAL". There is thus no doubt that the question looked forward to His touch down on Mount Olives. Finally, the Lord Jesus did not COME to destroy Jerusalem in 70 AD. He was seated at the right hand of the Majesty on high above all the heavens, and sent the Romans to judge Israel. Our Lord Jesus COMES to fight the Beast and end Gentile world government. That is the "end of the age"

    The word "generation" in scripture is us used a few times to describe the length of a man's life before he produces offspring. But scripture never lays down a fixed number. The vast majority use of the word "generation" in the whole bible is to show WHAT is generated. In Genesis 1:11-12 God sets forth a Law that remains unchanged till today. That which has seed within itself will "GENERATE" its own kind. A cat will "generate" kittens, a dog puppies, and a dog cannot "generate" anything with a fox because they are different species. The "generation" that our Lord Jesus spoke of in the verse you proffered, Matthew 23:35 rather proves my point. It reads; "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar." If our Lord was speaking of the Jews who lived at His time, it would be grossly unjust to hold the blood of Abel against them. So also holding ALL the righteous blood of slain men upon the earth when Israel alone only started two thousand years after Abel. It is clear that the "generation" that our Lord spoke of was the lineage of men from fallen Adam. Adam, if he did not fall, would have "generated" innocent men. But he "generates" sinful and murdering men, starting with Cain. The Lord Jesus, when defining "this generation" did not give a number of years. He gave the NATURE - VIPERS - the seed of the Serpent of Genesis 3.

    What our Lord means by "generation" is the NATURE of the Jew who was "generated" from Adam and not the Holy Spirit. If you are still in doubt, then try this. As our Lord Jesus said these words there was a cross-section of men and women in Judaea. Some were 2 years old, some were 30 years old and some had reached their 70's. If "this generation" must wait for 70 AD, those who were about 75 years old would have been 115 years old in 70 AD. Added to this, Acts of the Apostles, which ends before 70 AD reports of multiple deaths. Many of "THIS generation" did NOT live to see 70 AD. If our Lord Jesus had meant a period of years He is found a liar if all those died - for they belonged to "THAT generation".

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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Angels are spirts and can never die., likewise our spirits. However we have bodies which do die. Likewise these angels will inhabit bodies as in Sodom. The body can die but not the spirit.
    Never thought about that. I don't really know enough about angels to comment. Sorry.

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    Re: Question

    Anything alive can die except God.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    But there isnít any mention of an abomination or desecration of the temple in 2 Thessalonians 2 either
    As there is no mention of Abomination in Revelation this then PROVES that it is NOT speaking about 70 AD.
    IOW your argument holds no water but is an empty rhetoric.
    You see simply because something is not mentioned doesn't matter. It is what IS mentioned that matters.

    IF 70 AD was in view in Revelation then surely, by your same reasoning there would be MORE reason to mention an AoD, for surely you agree that this desolation is what was referred to in Matt 23?
    Yet it is NOT, which means this simply is NOT the focus in Revelation. Rather the focus is on the AC and on Jesus defeating him.

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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    As there is no mention of Abomination in Revelation this then PROVES that it is NOT speaking about 70 AD.
    IOW your argument holds no water but is an empty rhetoric.
    You see simply because something is not mentioned doesn't matter. It is what IS mentioned that matters.

    IF 70 AD was in view in Revelation then surely, by your same reasoning there would be MORE reason to mention an AoD, for surely you agree that this desolation is what was referred to in Matt 23?
    Yet it is NOT, which means this simply is NOT the focus in Revelation. Rather the focus is on the AC and on Jesus defeating him.
    For clarification I will explain my views which we have debated before no need to again

    The AOD Daniel referred to in Daniel 11 was Antiochus Epehanies

    The actual AOD Jesus refferes to in the Olivit Discourse was a two part first the Jews desecrating their own temple just before the Romans destroyed it the second part. When the armies were around the city the first time and withdrew it was time to leave the city.

    I see Babylon the great as Jerusalem and what happens to her was the result of the Jews rejection and for killing their Messiah and His saints by Rome the beast.

    Revelation 17:16-17
    16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until Godís words are fulfilled.

    In history Rome did this to Jerusalem for Gods purpose which is below

    Luke 19:41-44
    41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, ďIf you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peaceóbut now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of Godís coming to you.Ē

    The AOD was just the sing to get out but not the main purpose for the destruction of the city and the temple

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