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    Question

    If the events of Revelation are in our future then why doesn’t it mention a future antichrist desecrating a future temple?

    Isn't it supposed to be a major end time event?

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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    If the events of Revelation are in our future then why doesn’t it mention a future antichrist desecrating a future temple?

    Isn't it supposed to be a major end time event?
    But it does...…..

    One needs to understand the "image of the beast" in which the people BUILD is the temple.

    Rev 13
    14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

    The reason for the fire is so that it comes into the temple and then a voice will speak from the throne. aka like God.

    Rev 13
    13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

    I Cron 7
    1 Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the Lord filled the house.
    2 And the priests could not enter into the house of the Lord, because the glory of the Lord had filled the Lord's house.
    3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the Lord upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

    Thus the glory of a fake God will fill the house, Satan claiming to be God and then the people worship. For worship does there not need be a temple?

    Rev 13
    15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    If the events of Revelation are in our future then why doesn’t it mention a future antichrist desecrating a future temple?

    Isn't it supposed to be a major end time event?
    In Dan 7 we read of a "little horn" who will raise havoc with the saints immediately prior to the coming of the "son of man." That is an endtimes prophecy, as viewed by most of the Church Fathers, as I understand it. When Paul speaks of the "man of sin" sitting in the temple of God we have little to go on when trying to understand this statement. All Paul seems to be saying is that the Man of Sin positions himself in the place of God, whether it is a temple of the Jews, a temple somewhere else, or purely a figurative temple.

    In other words, the important element is that the Man of Sin positions himself as God in the endtimes. This has little to do with a reconstructed Jewish temple, which I don't even think will happen. Or, if it does happen, I do not believe it will have any credibility with God at all.

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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    If the events of Revelation are in our future then why doesn’t it mention a future antichrist desecrating a future temple?

    Isn't it supposed to be a major end time event?
    It is a major end-time event and well documented. Let us examine Revelation 13:1-7:

    1 "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
    2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
    3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
    4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."


    Verse 1. Israel are the "sand of the sea" (Gen.22:17). While they were autonomous and a nation they were "sand of the sea shore" - separate from the nations who are called the "sea" in prophecy (Ezek.26:3). But since 70 AD they are overwhelmed by the "sea", but still, in their diaspora, have remained separate and not joined the sea. Therefore, John views the vision from Israel's point of view. All this will take place in Israel.
    Verse 1. The Beast rises from the sea. If the sea is the nations then the Beast is a Gentile. This is in harmony with Daniel 9. He is a FUTURE "Prince" of the "people" who destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD - a Roman.
    Verse 1. Ten horns are ten kings who give the beast their authority (Rev.17:12). They stand in agreement with the Beast that he should blaspheme - that is, claim that he is deity and above Jehovah
    Verse 2. Satan's "Seat" is shown in Luke Chapter 4:5-6. He is a usurper and presently has power over all the kingdoms of the earth. He promised all these kingdoms to the king who would worship him. Christ refuses. The Beast does not.
    Verse 3. The Beast died and is raised from the dead. He can claim immortality - the first king able to do so. Death ends all kings' rule, but now this king seems to be for ever. "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is" (Revelation 17:8).
    Verse 4. In resurrection the Beast cannot die again (Lk.20:35-36). He is seemingly invincible. Coupled with this is all Satan's power. Who can stand against this man?
    Verse 5. The power comes from God (Dan.4:17). Men have heard the gospel of Christ for 2,000 years, yet they reject Him. Now God tests men. He allows another man from the grave to take the Seat in the Temple in Jerusalem. But this man is not Jehovah's emissary. He is Lucifer's. What will men do? If they have rejected Christ Who never harmed anybody, surely men will reject this man? But no! Sadly, they embrace him and this is the final rejection of Christ by both Jew and Gentile alike. God's anger overflows and the Great Tribulation starts.
    Verse 5. But an imposter will not last. God sets the boundaries for this imposter. He may only have rule 42 months or 1260 days or a time, times and half a time - 3˝ years.
    Verse 6. The Beast blasphemes "the Tabernacle of God". Any Temple built in Jerusalem is God's. It is the "City of the Great King" - not a Roman. By occupying this "Tabernacle" the Beast blasphemes (2nd Thess.2:4).
    Verse 6. Who dwells in heaven that could possibly be blasphemed? Only Jehovah and Jesus. Jehovah is a the "Everlasting" and the "Almighty", and Jesus is not only Man but God. Jehovah has designated the God-Man Jesus as king in Jerusalem over all the earth. The Beast, by taking the authority over Israel, Jerusalem, the earth, all kindreds and tongues, and the Temple, is a blasphemer.
    Verse 7. In Matthew 24 our Lord Jesus predicted that a "House" with His "Servants" in it would be broken up (Matt.24:39-51) because the servants would not "watch". This "broken house" has two parts - those who are "taken", and those who are "left". These Two Companies of the House of Gd's servants are seen -
    1. One in Revelation 14:1-5, who are "redeemed from the earth" and stand in the same place as the 24 Elders (Heaven). These are overcomers and sing. They have been "kept from the hour of trial" (Rev.3:10)
    2. One is Revelation 7:9-17, who must pass through the Great Tribulation. They had "dirty garments" that needed washing. They weep and must be consoled. They were "LEFT" on the earth and the Beast made war on them and overcame them.


    The Beast taking up residence in a future Temple in Jerusalem is THE EVENT for men's fate:
    • Israel will embrace him (Dan.9:27) and God pours out "Jacob's Trouble on them
    • The Gentile will bow to him and God pours out the Great Tribulation on men
    • The slothful Christian is "LEFT" and is "overcome by the Beast
    • The Overcoming Christian are "TAKEN as a friend ("paralambano" - Gk) and stand before the Son of Man in the sky

    A future Temple in Jerusalem is no problem. It is a well known fact that all the materials are ready - and have been for years. It can be erected in a matter of months. The problem is (i) finding true Levites to serve. The records were destroyed in 70 AD and it is almost not possible to discern who are Levites and who is the High Priest. (ii) The politics of erecting a Temple next to Al Aqsa on Moriah. These problems are easily solved by the Beast who as "ALL power over ALL men" and would not care one bit about having true Levites serving him.

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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In Dan 7 we read of a "little horn" who will raise havoc with the saints immediately prior to the coming of the "son of man." That is an endtimes prophecy, as viewed by most of the Church Fathers, as I understand it. When Paul speaks of the "man of sin" sitting in the temple of God we have little to go on when trying to understand this statement. All Paul seems to be saying is that the Man of Sin positions himself in the place of God, whether it is a temple of the Jews, a temple somewhere else, or purely a figurative temple.

    In other words, the important element is that the Man of Sin positions himself as God in the endtimes. This has little to do with a reconstructed Jewish temple, which I don't even think will happen. Or, if it does happen, I do not believe it will have any credibility with God at all.
    Yes I am aware of those verses but what I was asking is why isn't it mentioned in Revelation? Would that really be missing in Revelation If Revelation is literal and in our future?

  6. #6

    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Yes I am aware of those verses but what I was asking is why isn't it mentioned in Revelation? Would that really be missing in Revelation If Revelation is literal and in our future?
    Here's my thinking on that.

    I think I've mentioned a cpl times the usage of the "abomination [singular]" that Jesus refers to (where He said in Matt24:15 "When ye therefore see the abomination [singular] of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place..."), that this points back to its usage in the singular also in Daniel, that being Daniel 12:11 "the abomination [singular] which maketh desolate SET UP [H5414]..."; so it is this "set up [G5414]" word that I think may help us when looking into The Revelation...

    --"set up" - H5414 - "weletet/nathan" - [meaning] "give, put, set [established, permit, executes]"


    In Revelation 13:2, it says, "And the beast [from/out of the sea, v.1] that I saw was like a leopard, and its feet like a bear's, and its mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave [G1325] to it his power, and his throne [/seat], and great authority." With G1325 meaning, "give, put, place [set / grant / commit a thing to one / bestow / deliver]" [see also vv.4,5,7]


    Could the word in Daniel 12:11 "[be] set up [H5414]" be the link between the two passages, Dan12:11 and Rev13:2 [and also connecting the two "abomination [SINGULAR]" references, Dan12:11 and Matt24:15]? I tend to believe so.

    "and the abomination [singular (like Matt24:15)] that maketh desolate set up [H5414]..."

  7. #7

    Re: Question

    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/12-11.htm [then hover your cursor over the number 5414, here, to see the pop-up extended definition and usages]

  8. #8

    Re: Question

    EDIT: where I'd put "
    so it is this "set up [G5414]," I meant "H5414" (I got it right in other places... ignore this flub up )

  9. #9

    Re: Question

    Allow me to just add (what I've said in the past), I do believe the "flee" in Matt24:16 correlates with the "fled/fly" of Rev12:6,14 (with 1260 days remaining until His Second Coming to the earth FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom)… so there's that, to consider also.

  10. #10

    Re: Question

    See also Matthew 24:15's "standing [G2476 - histemi]" :

    --"standing [G2476 - histemi]" … "Usage: trans: (a) I make to stand, place, set up, establish, appoint; mid: I place myself, stand, (b) I set in balance, weigh; intrans: (c) I stand, stand by, stand still; met: I stand ready, stand firm, am steadfast." [source: Bible Hub; G2476 in Matthew 24:15 is a "transitive verb" as shown defined in the bolded portion above (Hebrews 9:8 has a noun form related to this "histemi [G2476]," where it says, "...the first tabernacle yet having a standing [G4714 - stasis/stasin - noun]")]

  11. #11

    Re: Question

    Then see 2 Thessalonians 2:4, similarly (with different verb), and its "G2523 - kathizo/kathisai - sitteth" :

    --
    "G2523 -
    kathizo/kathisai
    - sitteth"
    … "
    Usage:
    (a) trans: I make to sit; I set, appoint, (b) intrans: I sit down, am seated, stay." [source: Bible Hub; bold and underline mine]

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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    But it does...…..

    One needs to understand the "image of the beast" in which the people BUILD is the temple.

    Rev 13
    14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

    The reason for the fire is so that it comes into the temple and then a voice will speak from the throne. aka like God.

    Rev 13
    13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

    I Cron 7
    1 Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the Lord filled the house.
    2 And the priests could not enter into the house of the Lord, because the glory of the Lord had filled the Lord's house.
    3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the Lord upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

    Thus the glory of a fake God will fill the house, Satan claiming to be God and then the people worship. For worship does there not need be a temple?

    Rev 13
    15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
    This is quite a huge stretch wouldn’t it just say that he desecrates the temple?

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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Here's my thinking on that.

    I think I've mentioned a cpl times the usage of the "abomination [singular]" that Jesus refers to (where He said in Matt24:15 "When ye therefore see the abomination [singular] of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place..."), that this points back to its usage in the singular also in Daniel, that being Daniel 12:11 "the abomination [singular] which maketh desolate SET UP [H5414]..."; so it is this "set up [G5414]" word that I think may help us when looking into The Revelation...

    --"set up" - H5414 - "weletet/nathan" - [meaning] "give, put, set [established, permit, executes]"


    In Revelation 13:2, it says, "And the beast [from/out of the sea, v.1] that I saw was like a leopard, and its feet like a bear's, and its mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave [G1325] to it his power, and his throne [/seat], and great authority." With G1325 meaning, "give, put, place [set / grant / commit a thing to one / bestow / deliver]" [see also vv.4,5,7]


    Could the word in Daniel 12:11 "[be] set up [H5414]" be the link between the two passages, Dan12:11 and Rev13:2 [and also connecting the two "abomination [SINGULAR]" references, Dan12:11 and Matt24:15]? I tend to believe so.

    "and the abomination [singular (like Matt24:15)] that maketh desolate set up [H5414]..."

    Sorry but I don’t agree with you and it is also quite a stretch.

    My point being is that the bible clearly in Matthew and Daniel mentions abominations or desecration’s in the temple why doesn’t Revelation? This is the same bible and the temple in revelation isn’t even mentioned In the same verses as the beast

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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Then see 2 Thessalonians 2:4, similarly (with different verb), and its "G2523 - kathizo/kathisai - sitteth" :

    --
    "G2523 -
    kathizo/kathisai
    - sitteth"
    … "
    Usage:
    (a) trans: I make to sit; I set, appoint, (b) intrans: I sit down, am seated, stay." [source: Bible Hub; bold and underline mine]

    But there isn’t any mention of an abomination or desecration of the temple in 2 Thessalonians 2 either

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    Re: Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It is a major end-time event and well documented. Let us examine Revelation 13:1-7:

    1 "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
    2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
    3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
    4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."


    Verse 1. Israel are the "sand of the sea" (Gen.22:17). While they were autonomous and a nation they were "sand of the sea shore" - separate from the nations who are called the "sea" in prophecy (Ezek.26:3). But since 70 AD they are overwhelmed by the "sea", but still, in their diaspora, have remained separate and not joined the sea. Therefore, John views the vision from Israel's point of view. All this will take place in Israel.
    Verse 1. The Beast rises from the sea. If the sea is the nations then the Beast is a Gentile. This is in harmony with Daniel 9. He is a FUTURE "Prince" of the "people" who destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD - a Roman.
    Verse 1. Ten horns are ten kings who give the beast their authority (Rev.17:12). They stand in agreement with the Beast that he should blaspheme - that is, claim that he is deity and above Jehovah
    Verse 2. Satan's "Seat" is shown in Luke Chapter 4:5-6. He is a usurper and presently has power over all the kingdoms of the earth. He promised all these kingdoms to the king who would worship him. Christ refuses. The Beast does not.
    Verse 3. The Beast died and is raised from the dead. He can claim immortality - the first king able to do so. Death ends all kings' rule, but now this king seems to be for ever. "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is" (Revelation 17:8).
    Verse 4. In resurrection the Beast cannot die again (Lk.20:35-36). He is seemingly invincible. Coupled with this is all Satan's power. Who can stand against this man?
    Verse 5. The power comes from God (Dan.4:17). Men have heard the gospel of Christ for 2,000 years, yet they reject Him. Now God tests men. He allows another man from the grave to take the Seat in the Temple in Jerusalem. But this man is not Jehovah's emissary. He is Lucifer's. What will men do? If they have rejected Christ Who never harmed anybody, surely men will reject this man? But no! Sadly, they embrace him and this is the final rejection of Christ by both Jew and Gentile alike. God's anger overflows and the Great Tribulation starts.
    Verse 5. But an imposter will not last. God sets the boundaries for this imposter. He may only have rule 42 months or 1260 days or a time, times and half a time - 3˝ years.
    Verse 6. The Beast blasphemes "the Tabernacle of God". Any Temple built in Jerusalem is God's. It is the "City of the Great King" - not a Roman. By occupying this "Tabernacle" the Beast blasphemes (2nd Thess.2:4).
    Verse 6. Who dwells in heaven that could possibly be blasphemed? Only Jehovah and Jesus. Jehovah is a the "Everlasting" and the "Almighty", and Jesus is not only Man but God. Jehovah has designated the God-Man Jesus as king in Jerusalem over all the earth. The Beast, by taking the authority over Israel, Jerusalem, the earth, all kindreds and tongues, and the Temple, is a blasphemer.
    Verse 7. In Matthew 24 our Lord Jesus predicted that a "House" with His "Servants" in it would be broken up (Matt.24:39-51) because the servants would not "watch". This "broken house" has two parts - those who are "taken", and those who are "left". These Two Companies of the House of Gd's servants are seen -
    1. One in Revelation 14:1-5, who are "redeemed from the earth" and stand in the same place as the 24 Elders (Heaven). These are overcomers and sing. They have been "kept from the hour of trial" (Rev.3:10)
    2. One is Revelation 7:9-17, who must pass through the Great Tribulation. They had "dirty garments" that needed washing. They weep and must be consoled. They were "LEFT" on the earth and the Beast made war on them and overcame them.


    The Beast taking up residence in a future Temple in Jerusalem is THE EVENT for men's fate:
    • Israel will embrace him (Dan.9:27) and God pours out "Jacob's Trouble on them
    • The Gentile will bow to him and God pours out the Great Tribulation on men
    • The slothful Christian is "LEFT" and is "overcome by the Beast
    • The Overcoming Christian are "TAKEN as a friend ("paralambano" - Gk) and stand before the Son of Man in the sky

    A future Temple in Jerusalem is no problem. It is a well known fact that all the materials are ready - and have been for years. It can be erected in a matter of months. The problem is (i) finding true Levites to serve. The records were destroyed in 70 AD and it is almost not possible to discern who are Levites and who is the High Priest. (ii) The politics of erecting a Temple next to Al Aqsa on Moriah. These problems are easily solved by the Beast who as "ALL power over ALL men" and would not care one bit about having true Levites serving him.
    We have very different views of revelation but there is no mention of the word temple in revelation 13 again if it is mentioned in Matthew and Daniel why not revelation? I mean really would the word temple and a desecration of that temple really be missed in revelation if it is such a major event?

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