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Thread: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 years?

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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Sometimes a Thread gives rise to another pertinent topic that often requires that it is discussed independently. Therefore, as an offshoot of an ongoing OP, I am compelled to ask; will the 3.5 years of the Antichrist run concurrent or consecutive to the 1260 days of the Two Witnesses? Some posit that there's only one 3.5 years in the end-times, thus pitying the Beast and the 2Ws in the same timescale. I don't think it is true.

    I am personally of the opinion that Israel has to hear the preaching of the Witnesses before their flight into the desert given that it is the same 1260 days (Rev 12:6) they will stay in the wilderness that the 2Ws will preach in Jerusalem.

    What is your opinion?
    Rev. 11 confuses some, they think its a real time event, its not, thus when the 2 Witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, the 7th Trumpet sounds and we see the 3rd Woe {all 7 Vials}. Just like we are told about the 2nd Woe but given no DETAILS, because it happened in ch. 9, where we are given the DETAILS, likewise, we are given the 7th Trumpet in ch. 11, but not given the DETAILS, because in Rev. 16 we are given the DETAILS, the 7th Trumpet = the 3rd Woe. So Rev. ch. 11 is not a part of the Chronological Order of the book of Revelation.

    Now we can get into the timing of the Two-witnesses, they die BEFORE the Beast, at the 2nd Woe vs. the 7th Vial, so they have to show up BEFORE the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem to become the Beast. Malachi 4:5 says Elijah will be sent to turn Israel back unto God BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord {First Seal/Anti-Christ}. So they show up as the BLESSING 1335 days before the Second Coming. Then 1/3 of the Jews repent, they thus understand Matthew 24 and Flee Judea when they see the sign of the Abomination of Desolation which happens 1290 days before the Second Coming, giving the Jews a MARKER of when to Flee, they have 30 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem to become THE BEAST for 1260 days, the Two-Witnesses will thus show up 75 days BEFORE the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast and die 75 Days before he dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Sometimes a Thread gives rise to another pertinent topic that often requires that it is discussed independently. Therefore, as an offshoot of an ongoing OP, I am compelled to ask; will the 3.5 years of the Antichrist run concurrent or consecutive to the 1260 days of the Two Witnesses? Some posit that there's only one 3.5 years in the end-times, thus pitying the Beast and the 2Ws in the same timescale. I don't think it is true.

    I am personally of the opinion that Israel has to hear the preaching of the Witnesses before their flight into the desert given that it is the same 1260 days (Rev 12:6) they will stay in the wilderness that the 2Ws will preach in Jerusalem.

    What is your opinion?
    Rev. 11 confuses some, they think its a real time event, its not, thus when the 2 Witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, the 7th Trumpet sounds and we see the 3rd Woe {all 7 Vials}. Just like we are told about the 2nd Woe but given no DETAILS, because it happened in ch. 9, where we are given the DETAILS, likewise, we are given the 7th Trumpet in ch. 11, but not given the DETAILS, because in Rev. 16 we are given the DETAILS, the 7th Trumpet = the 3rd Woe. So Rev. ch. 11 is not a part of the Chronological Order of the book of Revelation.

    Now we can get into the timing of the Two-witnesses, they die BEFORE the Beast, at the 2nd Woe vs. the 7th Vial, so they have to show up BEFORE the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem to become the Beast. Malachi 4:5 says Elijah will be sent to turn Israel back unto God BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord {First Seal/Anti-Christ}. So they show up as the BLESSING 1335 days before the Second Coming. Then 1/3 of the Jews repent, they thus understand Matthew 24 and Flee Judea when they see the sign of the Abomination of Desolation which happens 1290 days before the Second Coming, giving the Jews a MARKER of when to Flee, they have 30 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem to become THE BEAST for 1260 days, the Two-Witnesses will thus show up 75 days BEFORE the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast and die 75 Days before he dies.

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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Rev. 11 confuses some, they think its a real time event, its not, thus when the 2 Witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, the 7th Trumpet sounds and we see the 3rd Woe {all 7 Vials}. Just like we are told about the 2nd Woe but given no DETAILS, because it happened in ch. 9, where we are given the DETAILS, likewise, we are given the 7th Trumpet in ch. 11, but not given the DETAILS, because in Rev. 16 we are given the DETAILS, the 7th Trumpet = the 3rd Woe. So Rev. ch. 11 is not a part of the Chronological Order of the book of Revelation.
    I agree with the above but the rest isn't correct.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I agree with the above but the rest isn't correct.
    As long as you aren't going t report me for hurting your feelings I guess we can chat.

    So if you agree with the above you agree the Two-witnesses die before the Beast. Now maybe you don't understand my underpinning/reasoning on the information, I get that, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. What is your problem with it ?

    The AoD is committed by he False Prophet. He is a Jewish High Priest like unto Jason under Antiochus, who tried to Hellenize the Jews. Thus you have THE TYPE False Prophet and Anti-Christ 2200 years ago. We are given the clues to he end time in Daniel 12, but too many people look past the 1260, 1290 and 1335. The 1260 is when the Holy Peoples are Conquered, the 1290 is when the Abomination occurs. Its not the same event, no matter how long we once thought it was. Its a 30 day difference.

    Jesus {Man in linen} tells Daniel in Dan. 12:6-7 that after the Holy peoples have been Conquered it will be 1260 until all the wonders end {Second Coming}

    Then in verse 8 Daniel asks again, when will these things END !!

    Jesus then says that from the time the Daily is taken away and the Abomination is set up there will be 1290 days [until these wonders end/Second Coming]. He the says BLESSED is he that comes to the 1335. Meaning that 1335 days until these Wonders end, Israel will be Blessed. {Two-witnesses}

    Why would God allow the Beast to Conquer Israel, then tell them to flee Judea ? He wouldn't, He would give them a MARKER/Sign to flee BEFORE they were Conquered. That sign is the AoD that happens 30 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem, the False Prophet {High Priest} no doubt gets angry when 1/3 of the Jews REPENT and start worshiping Jesus as their Messiah just like Malachi 4:5 says will happen, and he TAKES AWAY the Worshiping of Jesus {the Daily Sacrifice}, thus the Temple is actually CLEANSED therefore it can be DEFILED. He forbids the Worshiping of Jesus the places an Image of the E.U. President in the Temple 30 days before the 1260 or 1290 days before the Second Coming. The Jews have to REPENT BEFORE this, else how would they know to Flee Judea to Petra ? They read Matthew 24, that is how.

    Everything FITS because it is truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I agree with the above but the rest isn't correct.
    As long as you aren't going t report me for hurting your feelings I guess we can chat.

    So if you agree with the above you agree the Two-witnesses die before the Beast. Now maybe you don't understand my underpinning/reasoning on the information, I get that, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. What is your problem with it ?

    The AoD is committed by he False Prophet. He is a Jewish High Priest like unto Jason under Antiochus, who tried to Hellenize the Jews. Thus you have THE TYPE False Prophet and Anti-Christ 2200 years ago. We are given the clues to he end time in Daniel 12, but too many people look past the 1260, 1290 and 1335. The 1260 is when the Holy Peoples are Conquered, the 1290 is when the Abomination occurs. Its not the same event, no matter how long we once thought it was. Its a 30 day difference.

    Jesus {Man in linen} tells Daniel in Dan. 12:6-7 that after the Holy peoples have been Conquered it will be 1260 until all the wonders end {Second Coming}

    Then in verse 8 Daniel asks again, when will these things END !!

    Jesus then says that from the time the Daily is taken away and the Abomination is set up there will be 1290 days [until these wonders end/Second Coming]. He the says BLESSED is he that comes to the 1335. Meaning that 1335 days until these Wonders end, Israel will be Blessed. {Two-witnesses}

    Why would God allow the Beast to Conquer Israel, then tell them to flee Judea ? He wouldn't, He would give them a MARKER/Sign to flee BEFORE they were Conquered. That sign is the AoD that happens 30 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem, the False Prophet {High Priest} no doubt gets angry when 1/3 of the Jews REPENT and start worshiping Jesus as their Messiah just like Malachi 4:5 says will happen, and he TAKES AWAY the Worshiping of Jesus {the Daily Sacrifice}, thus the Temple is actually CLEANSED therefore it can be DEFILED. He forbids the Worshiping of Jesus the places an Image of the E.U. President in the Temple 30 days before the 1260 or 1290 days before the Second Coming. The Jews have to REPENT BEFORE this, else how would they know to Flee Judea to Petra ? They read Matthew 24, that is how.

    Everything FITS because it is truth.

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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    As long as you aren't going t report me for hurting your feelings I guess we can chat.
    No thanks .
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No thanks .
    You replied to my post....You reported me for nothing on the other site so after 4 years I left the site. Thus my reply, I don't want to chat with you really, but I don't hold grudges either, lies to short. So just don't reply to any more of my posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No thanks .
    You replied to my post....You reported me for nothing on the other site so after 4 years I left the site. Thus my reply, I don't want to chat with you really, but I don't hold grudges either, lies to short. So just don't reply to any more of my posts.

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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    You replied to my post....You reported me for nothing on the other site so after 4 years I left the site.
    What other site? I don't have any idea what you are talking about.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The two prophets rise up to heaven, the same hour is a great earthquake, then immediately without delay the 3rd woe/7th trump sounds and Jesus returns. There is no room for any more time for the beast and FP to exist because Christ destroys them the day he returns. The end of Rev 11 is crystal clear on this.
    Nope, Jesus does NOT return AT the 7th trumpet.
    Incorrect claim and the root of your error.
    Rev 11 does NOT say Jesus returns then, nor does John see this happen. What John is told is that at the 7th Trumpet Jesus is crowned King of kings. That event occurs in heaven.

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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope, Jesus does NOT return AT the 7th trumpet.
    Yes he does. You are missing the bigger picture, the last trump, the 7th trump, even the 6th seal all shows Christ returning at the 7th trump 3rd woe.

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

    That's the 7th trump also called the last trump:

    1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yes he does. You are missing the bigger picture, the last trump, the 7th trump, even the 6th seal all shows Christ returning at the 7th trump 3rd woe.
    In order to see the bigger picture, you need to know what each piece of the jigsaw has on it.
    Jesus does NOT return at the 7th trump and certainly NOT at the 6th seal which is years before that.

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    That's the 7th trump also called the last trump:
    1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
    Your confusion arises because you equate the 7th trump with the last trump.
    The 7th trump is simply the 7th in a series of 7 trumpets. However the Last Trump is not one of the 7.
    Curiously the Feast of Tabernacles, which is the 7th Feast, starts with a Trumpet, but also ends with a Trumpet on the 8th day (Lev 23:36)
    The Last Trump is an eighth trumpet.
    So yes Jesus returns with the Last Trumpet call, but it is NOT the 7th Trumpet call, for that is NOT the last.

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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You pose an interesting question. It is not settled whether they preached in the 3 years leading up the Abomination of Desolation, or the the 3 years of the Beast's reign in Jerusalem. Here are some of my considerations.

    The world scene at the emergence of the Beast.
    The world has been faced with two options since the advent of Jesus Christ. (i) Shall we follow the teaching and dictates of this most famous of all men - Jesus? The gospel of grace and of the coming Kingdom predicted in Daniel has reached all nations. The followers of this Jesus teach about His return to earth and His taking up universal Kingship. (ii) Shall we look for another charismatic, powerful, miracle-maker who will seem to be able to solve the world's woes? The answer is that for some seemingly inexplicable reason, Jesus, Who never hurt anybody, and spent His public life doing good, is hated and rejected by men. So the world is ripe to accept a world leader who seems to bale to save the wolrd and at the same time, allow men to exercise their innate perfidy.

    The Beast's Seven Years.
    Daniel divides the authority of the Beast into two three and one half periods. The first is when he has the authority to "strengthen" or "confirm" THE Covenant with Daniel's People. The reinstatement of the daily oblation means that Israel will have the ability to build a Temple in Jerusalem and practice the Law of Moses. The question now is, "Would the Two Witnesses object to this?". The Second three and oe half year reign of the Beast is when he has the power, authority and support of Israel and world politics at large to cancel the daily oblation, set himself up as deity in the Holy of Holies of this Temple and command that he alone be worshipped. Again, the question is, "Would the Two Witnesses object this?

    The Types.
    Scripture does not name the Two Witnesses. But we have clues as to who they are. The crisis in the world at that time is twofold.
    1. The Gentiles have heard the gospel and REJECT Jesus Christ. Another man makes claim to what Jesus claimed for Himself and men ACCEPT him. The setting is Jerusalem, and the issue is, "who rules the earth and who should we give all loyalty to?" A large portion of the earth accept the Beast and bow down to him. God is incensed. But forever gracious He gives a last warning. One, or both of the Witnesses will address the Gentiles about God's wrath - just as Noah did. That Witness, or Witnesses would be a man like Noah, but Noah is dead, and cannot die again. He would most likely be Enoch who was a "WITNESS" of universal judgement upon the Gentiles (for at Noah's time there were no Jews). Enoch was the only WITNESS of the last universal judgement because men were evil. And he would have preached Noah's message WHILE THE EVIL WAS BEING PERPETRATED.
    2. Israel have the Law. In this Law a number of things are forever settled. (i) The Temple is for God to dwell in, (ii) a Gentile cannot enter this Temple, (iii) idols have no place in all Israel especially in the Temple, and (iv) the name of God is Jehovah and not the sum of 666. The only WITNESS of a similar era was Elijah. He stood seemingly alone against all Israel and their idols and the false priests. In judgement, he shut heaven for 3 years WHILE THE EVIL WAS BEING PERPETRATED.

    The Two Witnesses testify IN Jerusalem of God's judgement because Gentiles has chosen an evil king who panders to their wants instead of Jesus, and because Israel is flagrantly breaking the Law. I judge that this testimony is DURING THE LAST 3 YEARS WHILE THE EVIL IS APPARENT

    But this conclusion is not without legitimate objection. It is the timing of the woes. Revelation 9:12 predicts THREE WOES. That means that the murder of the Two Witness by the beast will come just hours before the end of his reign in Jerusalem. Where then is the time left for the third woe? Even if the third woe "comes quickly" or "without delay", as the Greek suggests, what is it and how long does it last? First, though I would dearly like to expound it, I have to admit that I don't know for sure. Here then is my speculation.

    The second woe is followed by the third "quickly". What was the first woe? It was the torment of men (Chapter 9). What was the second woe? The death of seven thousand men in Jerusalem by earthquake. What happened at the moment of resurrection and rapture of the Two Witnesses? A large portion of men who witnessed it "gave glory to God". What would the Beast do to any man giving glory to another God? KILL THEM (Rev.13:15)! Could it be that the army needed for this slaughter was the army of Revelation 9. They are 200 thousand, thousand strong, that is, 200 million. And they kill a third of men. Could it be that the Two Witnesses were more effective in death than life and that at their resurrection and rapture men suddenly gave heed? Though the Two Witnesses are killed in Jerusalem, the events would be televised worldwide. Revelation 11:9 informs us that, "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves." Could it be that the Two Witnesses had their effect and that men began to question the Beast's authority? What would happen to dissenters? The same as to dissenters of Stalin, or Mao. A general purging of possible dissenters. And when and how quickly could a modern army of 200 million soldiers kill 2.5 billion? Each soldier would only have to kill 13 men or women. It could be done in a few hours.

    There is a legitimate objection to the Two Witnesses serving in the last three and one half years of the Beast's reign. But there is equally a legitimate answer to this objection. The reader may judge.
    I always appreciate the thought and insight you put into your posts and this one is no different. You have provided an irrefutable answer to the query even though you don't seem to know it. Now for clarity; the discourse is whether the 1260 days of the Witnesses run concurrent or consecutive to the 3.5 years of the Beast? As you correctly pointed out, through Dan 9:27 we know that the Antichrist has One Week or 7 years. However, in Revelation, only 3.5 years is recognised as his sovereign reign on earth. And the reason is simple. In the first half of the 3.5 years, he will remain relatively unknown in the sense that his true identity as the dreaded ANTICHRIST/MAN OF SIN will be masked.

    But during the last 3.5 years (2nd part of the 7 years) he will take centre stage in world affairs and become recognised for who he truly is. I believe that it is in the 1st 3.5 years that the deceit, craftiness and sleight attributed to him to win men over to his ideology will play out. But when he finally comes out of his shell and his true colour revealed, I doubt if he will still need cunning to have his way as unbelievers will not only be under his spell but risk death for going against him.

    You have unwittingly strengthened my position that the 2Ws ministry will happen during the 1st 3.5 years when the AC has not yet revealed his true identity to the world. Is there scriptural proof for this position? You provided it yourself!

    1. We know that 1260 days, 42 months and 3.5 years are all synonymous and the same timescale. And we are told that the Witnesses are killed at the END of their 1260 days ministry which occurs at the 1st Woe when the angel of the bottomless pit [Abaddon/Apollyon] is released to kill them (Rev 11:7 & Rev 9:11).

    2. I like the way you put it: "the 2Ws were more effective in death than alive" Rev 11:13 "and the remnant were affrighted and gave glory to God". This is true. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that it is those who believed and gave glory to God AFTER the death of the Witnesses that are the majority of the woman/Israel of Rev 12:6 that fled into the desert to escape the wrath of the dragon. What nails it down is that we are told that the woman will spend 1260 days/3.5 years (Rev 12:6 & 14) in their protective sanctuary until the Glorious Return.

    3. Now I ask, does anyone sincerely believe (I personally believe the coming of the 2Ws is God's last chance to the Gentiles and Israel in particular to accept him) it logical that Israel would have fled to the desert at the same time the Witnesses ministry is ongoing? I don't think so. My position is that their flight will occur AFTER the death of the 2Ws.

    4. We learn of the rage of the Beast in Rev 12 after the woman escaped his clutch and how he, (like after Antiochus 4 was disgraced and humiliated out of Egypt, turned with murderous rage on Judea) turned his wrath upon the remnants *that keep the commandment of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ*, i.e. the CHURCH!

    Rev 12:17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    This text IMHO denotes that STARTING point of the church's persecution by the AC! Furthermore, the plain inference here is that this is when the Great Tribulation starts in earnest. IOW, the 1260 days of the Witnesses would have finished at this point ergo, devoid of the GT.

    5. It is during this 2nd and final phase (3.5 years) of the Beast that the *mark* is enforced and his image set up (Rev 13:15-18). Again, it is at this time that the temple is desecrated meaning that its sanctity is preserved at the time the 2Ws preached.

    6. But I am not sure that the 200 million horsemen will kill at the behest of the AC. They were let loose after the 6th angel blew his trumpet. So my money is that they are killing for God.

    So without going too far away from the heart of the debate, with your help, I have provided scriptures and what I believe to be an honest and sincere argument for any objective mind to find that (a) the Witnesses finished their ministry BEFORE (b) the Antichrist's 3.5 years reign which we know, ends with the return of Christ. Therefore, the time of the 2Ws is consecutive and NOT concurrent with the 3.5 years of the Beast.

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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I always appreciate the thought and insight you put into your posts and this one is no different. You have provided an irrefutable answer to the query even though you don't seem to know it. Now for clarity; the discourse is whether the 1260 days of the Witnesses run concurrent or consecutive to the 3.5 years of the Beast? As you correctly pointed out, through Dan 9:27 we know that the Antichrist has One Week or 7 years. However, in Revelation, only 3.5 years is recognised as his sovereign reign on earth. And the reason is simple. In the first half of the 3.5 years, he will remain relatively unknown in the sense that his true identity as the dreaded ANTICHRIST/MAN OF SIN will be masked.

    But during the last 3.5 years (2nd part of the 7 years) he will take centre stage in world affairs and become recognised for who he truly is. I believe that it is in the 1st 3.5 years that the deceit, craftiness and sleight attributed to him to win men over to his ideology will play out. But when he finally comes out of his shell and his true colour revealed, I doubt if he will still need cunning to have his way as unbelievers will not only be under his spell but risk death for going against him.

    You have unwittingly strengthened my position that the 2Ws ministry will happen during the 1st 3.5 years when the AC has not yet revealed his true identity to the world. Is there scriptural proof for this position? You provided it yourself!

    1. We know that 1260 days, 42 months and 3.5 years are all synonymous and the same timescale. And we are told that the Witnesses are killed at the END of their 1260 days ministry which occurs at the 1st Woe when the angel of the bottomless pit [Abaddon/Apollyon] is released to kill them (Rev 11:7 & Rev 9:11).

    2. I like the way you put it: "the 2Ws were more effective in death than alive" Rev 11:13 "and the remnant were affrighted and gave glory to God". This is true. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that it is those who believed and gave glory to God AFTER the death of the Witnesses that are the majority of the woman/Israel of Rev 12:6 that fled into the desert to escape the wrath of the dragon. What nails it down is that we are told that the woman will spend 1260 days/3.5 years (Rev 12:6 & 14) in their protective sanctuary until the Glorious Return.

    3. Now I ask, does anyone sincerely believe (I personally believe the coming of the 2Ws is God's last chance to the Gentiles and Israel in particular to accept him) it logical that Israel would have fled to the desert at the same time the Witnesses ministry is ongoing? I don't think so. My position is that their flight will occur AFTER the death of the 2Ws.

    4. We learn of the rage of the Beast in Rev 12 after the woman escaped his clutch and how he, (like after Antiochus 4 was disgraced and humiliated out of Egypt, turned with murderous rage on Judea) turned his wrath upon the remnants *that keep the commandment of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ*, i.e. the CHURCH!

    Rev 12:17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    This text IMHO denotes that STARTING point of the church's persecution by the AC! Furthermore, the plain inference here is that this is when the Great Tribulation starts in earnest. IOW, the 1260 days of the Witnesses would have finished at this point ergo, devoid of the GT.

    5. It is during this 2nd and final phase (3.5 years) of the Beast that the *mark* is enforced and his image set up (Rev 13:15-18). Again, it is at this time that the temple is desecrated meaning that its sanctity is preserved at the time the 2Ws preached.

    6. But I am not sure that the 200 million horsemen will kill at the behest of the AC. They were let loose after the 6th angel blew his trumpet. So my money is that they are killing for God.

    So without going too far away from the heart of the debate, with your help, I have provided scriptures and what I believe to be an honest and sincere argument for any objective mind to find that (a) the Witnesses finished their ministry BEFORE (b) the Antichrist's 3.5 years reign which we know, ends with the return of Christ. Therefore, the time of the 2Ws is consecutive and NOT concurrent with the 3.5 years of the Beast.
    Thank you for your kind words. You are very polite. But have you considered that my argument (though speculative) produced a different answer to you. By default my argument must be flawed then. But I grant you your position with just one comment. The Beast's prominence must be great even at the beginning of his appearance, for he is able to do a deal with Israel and Islam that no-one has yet achieved. It is at the beginning of the 70th seven that he "strengthens THE Covenant" with Israel. This action is profound, for, to "strengthen" or "confirm" the Covenant with a daily oblation must mean that a Temple is built. Neither the Law, nor the oblations can be fulfilled without a Temple. If one considers that the Temple will stand side by side with the Al Aqsa*, the Beast must be both very persuasive and very powerful in politics and religion.

    * Because of the poisonous political atmosphere in Israel between Jew and Muslim, many scholars of the Bible think that the Al Aqsa must somehow be destroyed before the Temple that the Beast will occupy can be built. I judge that the Moslem holy place will not be destroyed because of Revelation 11:2. "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." This means that the Outer Court will exist with Gentiles occupying it - a sure sign that a Gentile edifice is nearby. The Outer Court is normally the domain of the Levites and the offerings (Exodus 27). If the Beast can achieve erecting a Jewish Temple next to a Moslem Holy Place, he will be both a master of diplomacy and have great power over both parties.

  12. #27
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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I always appreciate the thought and insight you put into your posts and this one is no different. You have provided an irrefutable answer to the query even though you don't seem to know it. Now for clarity; the discourse is whether the 1260 days of the Witnesses run concurrent or consecutive to the 3.5 years of the Beast? As you correctly pointed out, through Dan 9:27 we know that the Antichrist has One Week or 7 years. However, in Revelation, only 3.5 years is recognised as his sovereign reign on earth. And the reason is simple. In the first half of the 3.5 years, he will remain relatively unknown in the sense that his true identity as the dreaded ANTICHRIST/MAN OF SIN will be masked.

    But during the last 3.5 years (2nd part of the 7 years) he will take centre stage in world affairs and become recognised for who he truly is. I believe that it is in the 1st 3.5 years that the deceit, craftiness and sleight attributed to him to win men over to his ideology will play out. But when he finally comes out of his shell and his true colour revealed, I doubt if he will still need cunning to have his way as unbelievers will not only be under his spell but risk death for going against him.

    You have unwittingly strengthened my position that the 2Ws ministry will happen during the 1st 3.5 years when the AC has not yet revealed his true identity to the world. Is there scriptural proof for this position? You provided it yourself!

    1. We know that 1260 days, 42 months and 3.5 years are all synonymous and the same timescale. And we are told that the Witnesses are killed at the END of their 1260 days ministry which occurs at the 1st Woe when the angel of the bottomless pit [Abaddon/Apollyon] is released to kill them (Rev 11:7 & Rev 9:11).

    2. I like the way you put it: "the 2Ws were more effective in death than alive" Rev 11:13 "and the remnant were affrighted and gave glory to God". This is true. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that it is those who believed and gave glory to God AFTER the death of the Witnesses that are the majority of the woman/Israel of Rev 12:6 that fled into the desert to escape the wrath of the dragon. What nails it down is that we are told that the woman will spend 1260 days/3.5 years (Rev 12:6 & 14) in their protective sanctuary until the Glorious Return.

    3. Now I ask, does anyone sincerely believe (I personally believe the coming of the 2Ws is God's last chance to the Gentiles and Israel in particular to accept him) it logical that Israel would have fled to the desert at the same time the Witnesses ministry is ongoing? I don't think so. My position is that their flight will occur AFTER the death of the 2Ws.

    4. We learn of the rage of the Beast in Rev 12 after the woman escaped his clutch and how he, (like after Antiochus 4 was disgraced and humiliated out of Egypt, turned with murderous rage on Judea) turned his wrath upon the remnants *that keep the commandment of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ*, i.e. the CHURCH!

    Rev 12:17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    This text IMHO denotes that STARTING point of the church's persecution by the AC! Furthermore, the plain inference here is that this is when the Great Tribulation starts in earnest. IOW, the 1260 days of the Witnesses would have finished at this point ergo, devoid of the GT.

    5. It is during this 2nd and final phase (3.5 years) of the Beast that the *mark* is enforced and his image set up (Rev 13:15-18). Again, it is at this time that the temple is desecrated meaning that its sanctity is preserved at the time the 2Ws preached.

    6. But I am not sure that the 200 million horsemen will kill at the behest of the AC. They were let loose after the 6th angel blew his trumpet. So my money is that they are killing for God.

    So without going too far away from the heart of the debate, with your help, I have provided scriptures and what I believe to be an honest and sincere argument for any objective mind to find that (a) the Witnesses finished their ministry BEFORE (b) the Antichrist's 3.5 years reign which we know, ends with the return of Christ. Therefore, the time of the 2Ws is consecutive and NOT concurrent with the 3.5 years of the Beast.
    It's just not possible that there are two different 1260 day time periods between the two. The Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, so in order for your assumption to be correct there would have to be 1260 days between the 2nd Woe {Two-witnesses die} and the 7th Vial {Beast dies}.

    The answer is very clear, the Two-witnesses show up to turn Israel back unto God JUST BEFORE the DOTL just as Malachi 4:5 says. We are trying to solve a problem the bible is very clear about in reality. The First Seal starts the 1260 days that the Jews Flee......thus the 2nd Woe is way down the line, in my estimation, 75 days before Jesus Second Coming kills the Beast. Apollyon is released at the 1st Woe, but he kills the Two-witnesses at the end of the 2nd Woe, because immediately after their bodies arise the 7th Trumpet sounds, which is the 3rd Woe.

    Rev. 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

    Yes, the Two-witnesses show up BEFORE the DOTL, and the Jews REPENT before the DOTL. That is why the Flee to Petra, they understand Jesus' warning in Matt. 24. Israel repents BY FAITH, as we all must do. God is not going to just show up ad say you are saved, them must repent by Faith alone, as we all do. So the 1/3 who repent flee Judea, they re already saved, they however need protecting because God has promised Abraham a seed forever.

    The REMNANT Church......the Church is in Heaven Marrying the Lamb, the Remnant Church can only be Gentiles who come unto Jesus after the Rapture. This discounts all who say that the Church has to have taken the place of Israel because we all are one. Both Jews and Gentiles will be Raptured via FAITH during the Church Age. And both Jews and Gentiles come unto Christ Jesus after the Rapture, via FAITH in Jesus. We are all ONE in Christ in that all men com into Christ in the exact same manner, by FAITH ALONE. The timing is not relevant at all.

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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That's not a contradiction. The time periods given in Rev 12 happen before the time periods found in Rev 13. Rev 13's 42 months and the 2w's 1260 days are concurrent, or mostly concurrent. I explained that minor dif in a dif post. Either way, the two periods are not consecutive because when the two prophets rise into heaven, there is a single day or less before the beast and FP are destroyed.
    Is this theory supported by scripture or you just want me to take your word for it?

    My view is unaffected by anything happening in Rev 12.
    You have to do better than this to be believed.

    I go by the text and I don't insert things into the text like the 2w preaching to Israel.
    According to Paul in Rom 11 this is the time of the Gentiles - this Gospel age is for us. The fullness of the Gentiles will soon come in when God will once again focus on Israel. The primary reason God is sending the 2Ws is to convert them to Christ, although Gentiles will still benefit from their ministry. So yes, primarily they will be preaching to Israel.

    They are killed in Jerusalem. The text doesn't say they were in Jerusalem to preach to Israel.

    Here's the full passage on the 2w:

    Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
    Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
    Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
    Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
    Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
    Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
    Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
    Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
    Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    Where does it say they preach to Israel, especially to convert unbelieving Jews to Christ?
    So why will God send them to Gentiles when we've benefited from the Apostles and the church than Israel?

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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    So without going too far away from the heart of the debate, with your help, I have provided scriptures and what I believe to be an honest and sincere argument for any objective mind to find that (a) the Witnesses finished their ministry BEFORE (b) the Antichrist's 3.5 years reign which we know, ends with the return of Christ. Therefore, the time of the 2Ws is consecutive and NOT concurrent with the 3.5 years of the Beast.
    As the Seven Plagues [Bowls] of Revelation 16:1-17 are near to and finish at the end of the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Return, they coincide with what the Two Witnesses do. Revelation 11:3-6
    Those two men will in fact; bring on God's punishment to the Anti-Christ and to those who have taken his mark.

    Therefore , they are present and doing God's work during the second half of that 7 year treaty, as per Daniel 9:27, When they are killed, at the end of the 1260 days, they are taken to heaven, but will soon return with Jesus, as He brings the souls of all those martyrs killed during the GT and they will live again for the Millennium.

    ewq makes the contention that the Seventh Trumpet is the last and final trumpet.
    This idea cannot be correct, as in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, Paul is prophesying about the final Judgment; the Great White Throne, when immortality is given to those whose names are Written in the Book of Life. THAT is when the last trumpet will sound; to call up all the people who have ever lived. AFTER the Millennium.

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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by blur1 View Post
    When the Gentiles/ nations receive the outer court at the start of the 2 witnesses 1260 days, is this due to:
    the breaking of a covenant
    or making of a covenant?

    Or both?
    The presumption is that the Jews will at that time continue animal sacrifice in the temple in accordance with the proscribed Mosaic covenant. As you know, Gentiles are not partakers of the OT Law that will be the praxis of Israel at that time.

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