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Thread: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 years?

  1. #31
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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The presumption is that the Jews will at that time continue animal sacrifice in the temple in accordance with the proscribed Mosaic covenant. As you know, Gentiles are not partakers of the OT Law that will be the praxis of Israel at that time.
    What we do know, if prophecy if carefully studied, is that the Jews will no longer be a separate people, the remnant of them will join their Christian brethren, living in all of the holy Land. As Isaiah 56:1-8 plainly states, they will all make offerings in the new Temple. Jeremiah 17:26, Ezekiel 45:13-25

  2. #32
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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    And the reason is simple. In the first half of the 3.5 years, he will remain relatively unknown in the sense that his true identity as the dreaded ANTICHRIST/MAN OF SIN will be masked.
    Scripture doesn't support this concept. While his identity is hidden for some time, it's not 3.5 years because the beast the AC will rule over only has 42 months and when that time expires, so will the beast and the AC. There is no extra 3.5 years either before the beasts 42 months or after it. There is simply only the 42 months, nothing more. We also know it's been shortened from 7 years (84 months) to 3.5 (42 months) because Christ told us:

    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.



    You have unwittingly strengthened my position that the 2Ws ministry will happen during the 1st 3.5 years when the AC has not yet revealed his true identity to the world. Is there scriptural proof for this position? You provided it yourself!

    1. We know that 1260 days, 42 months and 3.5 years are all synonymous and the same timescale. And we are told that the Witnesses are killed at the END of their 1260 days ministry which occurs at the 1st Woe when the angel of the bottomless pit [Abaddon/Apollyon] is released to kill them (Rev 11:7 & Rev 9:11).
    No, the two prophets are killed 3.5 days before the end of the second woe, not the 1st woe. The same hour they go up to heaven there is an earthquake then with no delay in time the 3rd woe/7th trump happens and Christ returns also in no delay of time. There is no extra 3.5 years that can be squeezed into this timeline.


    2. I like the way you put it: "the 2Ws were more effective in death than alive"
    They weren't effective in death. They were effective when alive for the second time, having been killed by the beast but then resurrect from that death showing that their God is more powerful than the false God the AC. The resurrection is what makes people realize the AC was actually a false god. Seeing Christ immediately return solidifies that truth especially if the other guy claimed to have been the returned Christ.


    3. Now I ask, does anyone sincerely believe (I personally believe the coming of the 2Ws is God's last chance to the Gentiles and Israel in particular to accept him) it logical that Israel would have fled to the desert at the same time the Witnesses ministry is ongoing? I don't think so. My position is that their flight will occur AFTER the death of the 2Ws.
    There's only 3.5 days before Christ returns. And the 3.5 years in the end of Rev 12 is before the GT even starts so whatever that 3.5 years period is, it starts before the 42 months does for the beast.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  3. #33
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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Rev. 11 confuses some, they think its a real time event, its not, thus when the 2 Witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, the 7th Trumpet sounds and we see the 3rd Woe {all 7 Vials}. Just like we are told about the 2nd Woe but given no DETAILS, because it happened in ch. 9, where we are given the DETAILS, likewise, we are given the 7th Trumpet in ch. 11, but not given the DETAILS, because in Rev. 16 we are given the DETAILS, the 7th Trumpet = the 3rd Woe. So Rev. ch. 11 is not a part of the Chronological Order of the book of Revelation.

    Now we can get into the timing of the Two-witnesses, they die BEFORE the Beast, at the 2nd Woe vs. the 7th Vial, so they have to show up BEFORE the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem to become the Beast. Malachi 4:5 says Elijah will be sent to turn Israel back unto God BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord {First Seal/Anti-Christ}. So they show up as the BLESSING 1335 days before the Second Coming. Then 1/3 of the Jews repent, they thus understand Matthew 24 and Flee Judea when they see the sign of the Abomination of Desolation which happens 1290 days before the Second Coming, giving the Jews a MARKER of when to Flee, they have 30 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem to become THE BEAST for 1260 days, the Two-Witnesses will thus show up 75 days BEFORE the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast and die 75 Days before he dies.
    I concede that Rev 11 is not as clear cut as we would have liked. However, I'm not sure that the Witnesses died in the 2nd Woe. I think it's the first. This is my reason:

    Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
    Rev 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.


    Now Rev 11:7 gave us the identity of their killer and we see him (Abaddon/Apollyon) ( in Rev 9:11. Verse 12 tells us that the 1st Woe is over; therefore, (this is my thoughts) isn't it logical to associate the death of the 2Ws to the timescale the angel of the bottomless pit was on the scene, ie in the 1st Woe? There's certainly no other mention of him elsewhere to suggest he spent much time around. In fact, scripture says he went into perdition. A reference in my view that God removed him as soon as he completed his deed against the Witnesses.

    Therefore, I don't believe it is proper to place Apollyon beyond the 1st Woe as v-12 suggests that the 2nd Woe is about events not associated with the first where Abaddon is identified. I agree that the Witnesses would have finished their ministry BEFORE Jerusalem fail to the AC. And we know that this occurs in the onset of the AC's 3.5 years reign.

    Unfortunately, Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet [singular] before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    Matt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

    The above passages in Matthew corroborate Mal 4:5-6. In contrast, the reference to the 2Ws is plural:

    Zech 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

    I am confused with your statement "the Two-Witnesses will thus show up 75 days BEFORE the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast and die 75 Days before he dies".?

    Why 75 days when scripture is clear that they will show up for a total of 1260 days (Rev 11:4)?

  4. #34
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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    However, I'm not sure that the Witnesses died in the 2nd Woe.
    They die just before the end of the 2nd woe:

    Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
    Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
    Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
    Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
    Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
    Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

    The 2nd woe contains the end of the GT. This is the woe the two prophets existed in and died in and resurrected in. The two prophets were alive during the entire 1st woe.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  5. #35

    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    They die just before the end of the 2nd woe:

    […]

    The two prophets were alive during the entire 1st woe.
    Agreed.

    In Rev8 (after the first four Trumpets have sounded, vv.7-12), verse 13 says, "Woe, woe, woe [the three Woes], to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels which are yet to sound! [Trumpets #5,6,7]"... So I believe the FIRST "Woe unto the earth" occurs at the 5th Trumpet, and correlates with what is stated elsewhere, in Rev12:12, which says, "...Woe unto the earth and the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time" (mid-trib event [5th Trumpet/1st Woe unto the earth], with 1260 days remaining until Christ's Second Coming to the earth; this mid-trib event being the FIRST [moment of] "WOE unto the earth" [none before this moment], in my view and study of the chronology). It is the 2nd Woe [/6th Trumpet events] that is associated with the events following the 2W's resurrection and their "ascended up to heaven" event, so this would be after the mid-trib events of the 5th Trumpet/1st Woe unto the earth (with the 7th Trumpet/3rd Woe/1st Vial following after that, and also the rest of the Vials, which unfold over some time, before the end of trib takes place).

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    They die just before the end of the 2nd woe:

    []

    The two prophets were alive during the entire 1st woe.
    Agreed.

    In Rev8 (after the first four Trumpets have sounded, vv.7-12), verse 13 says, "Woe, woe, woe [the three Woes], to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels which are yet to sound! [Trumpets #5,6,7]"... So I believe the FIRST "Woe unto the earth" occurs at the 5th Trumpet, and correlates with what is stated elsewhere, in Rev12:12, which says, "...Woe unto the earth and the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time" (mid-trib event [5th Trumpet/1st Woe unto the earth], with 1260 days remaining until Christ's Second Coming to the earth; this mid-trib event being the FIRST [moment of] "WOE unto the earth" [none before this moment], in my view and study of the chronology). It is the 2nd Woe [/6th Trumpet events] that is associated with the events following the 2W's resurrection and their "ascended up to heaven" event, so this would be after the mid-trib events of the 5th Trumpet/1st Woe unto the earth (with the 7th Trumpet/3rd Woe/1st Vial following after that, and also the rest of the Vials, which unfold over some time, before the end of trib takes place).

  6. #36
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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    (with the 7th Trumpet/3rd Woe/1st Vial following after that, and also the rest of the Vials, which unfold over some time, before the end of trib takes place).
    Well, the trib ended once the 7th trump sounded as the beasts cannot persecute the remnant of the seed of the woman (Rev 12) anymore. So, all the vials are poured after the end of the trib. The vials are not part of the tribulation but the wrath of God. The trib is the wrath of Satan "having great wrath" etc etc.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  7. #37

    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Well, the trib ended once the 7th trump sounded as the beasts cannot persecute the remnant of the seed of the woman (Rev 12) anymore. So, all the vials are poured after the end of the trib. The vials are not part of the tribulation but the wrath of God. The trib is the wrath of Satan "having great wrath" etc etc.
    I believe Satan "having great wrath" is during "the GREAT trib" (i.e. the second half [1260d] of the entire 7-yr trib / 70th-Wk / 2520-days total).

    I disagree that the Vials are "after" the trib [as defined in parenthesis above], because I believe Revelation 19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 and its parallel Isaiah 24:21-22[23] speak of His Second Coming to the earth (the battle of Armageddon, etc); so Revelation 16:12 (6th Vial) says, "And the sixth poured out his bowl [/vial] upon the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, SO THAT THE WAY MIGHT BE PREPARED of the kings of the rising of the sun [/of the east]." At this point, it's not quite over yet.

  8. #38
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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I believe Satan "having great wrath" is during "the GREAT trib"
    Since that's what I said I don't know what we are discussing here.

    (i.e. the second half [1260d] of the entire 7-yr trib / 70th-Wk / 2520-days total).
    The GT is not split in half. It's only 42 months long.


    I disagree that the Vials are "after" the trib
    They only happen once the trib has ended and aren't pour during the trib so it's impossible for them to be placed anywhere else.

    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    Here is clearly states God's wrath has come after the 7th trump sounds. Clearly God's wrath hadn't been coming for a long time before this or else the statement would be meaningless.



    Another reason why the bowls/vials are part of the 7th trump:



    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


    We see these same things when the last one is poured:



    Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
    Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
    Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
    Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
    Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

    The exact same things and both ending with a great hail storm:

    Rev 11 7th trump "there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail"
    Rev 16 "there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake" "a great hail out of heaven"

    Same exact things because it's the same time frame. Keep in mind Revelation is not chronological in nature. It jumps around and re-visits the same time frame like here.


    Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.


    Not to mention the plagues are last, coinciding with the last trump.



    The vials are actually poured out in the time frame of these verses.

    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    Rev 11:19 *And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:


    Here is the same timing of those verses:

    Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
    Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
    Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
    Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

    Here we see the temple opened in both passages and both speaking of the wrath of God. 7th trump: and thy wrath is come Rev 15: vials full of the wrath of God. Same timeframe.




    [as defined in parenthesis above], because I believe Revelation 19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 and its parallel Isaiah 24:21-22[23] speak of His Second Coming to the earth (the battle of Armageddon, etc); so Revelation 16:12 (6th Vial) says, "And the sixth poured out his bowl [/vial] upon the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, SO THAT THE WAY MIGHT BE PREPARED of the kings of the rising of the sun [/of the east]." At this point, it's not quite over yet.
    Yeah it was over by that time. The tribulation comes from the beasts against Christians. That ended at the 7th trump. Just because the beasts still are alive for a one sided battle doesn't mean the trib is still happening.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  9. #39

    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Since that's what I said I don't know what we are discussing here.
    I don't believe you and I are defining "the GREAT tribulation" in the same way. I am defining it as ONLY the second half of the 7 years (there will exist the first half also that is NOT called "the GREAT tribulation"), whereas you seem to be defining it as the totality of the tribulation consisting only of 1260 days [/42 mos].



    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The GT is not split in half. It's only 42 months long.
    I've not said that "the GREAT tribulation" is split in half, but that "the GREAT tribulation" pertains SOLELY to the second half of the total 7 yr period.

    Rev1:1 says "...to shew unto His servants things which must come to pass [comp. 4:1 / 1:19c (the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book)] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (not over the course of some 2000 yrs; so SEAL #1 takes place at the START of the "7-yrs" and is the EQUIVALENT of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR (1Th5:2-3)]" of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of [Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11], the INITIAL ONE being the "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" of Matt24:4/Mk13:5, aka the "whose COMING/advent/ARRIVAL/presence/parousia of the man of sin, per 2Th2:9a[7b-8a] at the START of the DOTL/tribulation, just as Dan9:27a[26] shows the BEGINNING of the 7-yr period [27b--the MIDDLE of same; 27c--the END of same; both of these passages/contexts covering ALL SEVEN YEARS (not just 3.5 yrs!)]




    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    They only happen once the trib has ended and aren't pour during the trib so it's impossible for them to be placed anywhere else.

    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    Here is clearly states God's wrath has come after the 7th trump sounds. Clearly God's wrath hadn't been coming for a long time before this or else the statement would be meaningless.
    See the words I bolded above (in your quote)? Now take a look at the following verse where the same exact word is used, and tell me if what is being said there (below) speaks of the precise moment Jesus STARTED His earthly ministry, or if it's referencing a time somewhat [some length of time] BEFORE these words were stated by Him (in this context):

    "For the Son of man is come [G2064 - elthen - V-AIA-3S] to save that which was lost." Matthew 18:11. Was this saying that "the Son of man" has just now arrived on the scene, or does it refer to an earlier point in time and stating His purpose for coming (which "coming" occurred or STARTED actually quite a length of time before this precise moment in the chronology / the moment [setting in which] this is BEING SAID)??

    https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/18-11.htm

    Don't you think, since it's the same word (in the Greek), that this could be the case for Rev11's verse also? I do! (and that's only considering the WORDING, not even taking into account other surrounding info, and other "chronology" issues of the matter in question)

  10. #40

    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    EDIT (to clarify): "tell me if what is being said there (below) speaks of [THE MOMENT THIS IS BEING SAID as BEING] the precise moment Jesus STARTED His earthly ministry, or if it's referencing a time somewhat [some length of time] BEFORE these words were stated by Him (in this context)

    ^ EDIT (to clarify): "tell me if what is being said there (below) speaks of [THE MOMENT THIS IS BEING SAID as BEING] the precise moment Jesus STARTED His earthly ministry, or if it's referencing a time somewhat [some length of time] BEFORE these words were stated by Him (in this context)

  11. #41
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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I don't believe you and I are defining "the GREAT tribulation" in the same way. I am defining it as ONLY the second half of the 7 years (there will exist the first half also that is NOT called "the GREAT tribulation"), whereas you seem to be defining it as the totality of the tribulation consisting only of 1260 days [/42 mos].
    I don't believe in a 7 year period split in half. I only see the GT as 42 months with no specific 42 months prior to it but it's not too important to work out.


    See the words I bolded above (in your quote)? Now take a look at the following verse where the same exact word is used, and tell me if what is being said there (below) speaks of the precise moment Jesus STARTED His earthly ministry, or if it's referencing a time somewhat [some length of time] BEFORE these words were stated by Him (in this context):

    "For the Son of man is come [G2064 - elthen - V-AIA-3S] to save that which was lost." Matthew 18:11. Was this saying that "the Son of man" has just now arrived on the scene, or does it refer to an earlier point in time and stating His purpose for coming (which "coming" occurred or STARTED actually quite a length of time before this precise moment in the chronology / the moment [setting in which] this is BEING SAID)??
    It's the purpose of his coming.



    https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/18-11.htm

    Don't you think, since it's the same word (in the Greek), that this could be the case for Rev11's verse also? I do!

    The other verse is explaining why he came in the first place, the Rev 11 verse is declaring the time of wrath has arrived. Both reference the start or beginning of something.


    G2064
    ἔρχομαι
    erchomai
    er'-khom-ahee
    Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] word, ἐλεύθομαι eleuthomai or ἔλθω elthō; which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - accompany, appear, bring, come enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  12. #42
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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I concede that Rev 11 is not as clear cut as we would have liked. However, I'm not sure that the Witnesses died in the 2nd Woe. I think it's the first. This is my reason:

    Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
    Rev 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.


    Now Rev 11:7 gave us the identity of their killer and we see him (Abaddon/Apollyon) ( in Rev 9:11. Verse 12 tells us that the 1st Woe is over; therefore, (this is my thoughts) isn't it logical to associate the death of the 2Ws to the timescale the angel of the bottomless pit was on the scene, ie in the 1st Woe? There's certainly no other mention of him elsewhere to suggest he spent much time around. In fact, scripture says he went into perdition. A reference in my view that God removed him as soon as he completed his deed against the Witnesses.

    Therefore, I don't believe it is proper to place Apollyon beyond the 1st Woe as v-12 suggests that the 2nd Woe is about events not associated with the first where Abaddon is identified. I agree that the Witnesses would have finished their ministry BEFORE Jerusalem fail to the AC. And we know that this occurs in the onset of the AC's 3.5 years reign.
    Well I didn't want to put all this Scripture in to make the point, so I pointed towards the Rev. 11 passage where they die. We are each more familiar to some passages so.....

    Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. {They pray down Every Plague}

    11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    They die, then 3 1/2 days later the Second Woe Ends and the 7th Trumpet {3rd Woe starts}. The Demons during he 1st Woe are commanded to not hurt any men. The Two-witnesses job is two fold 1.) Preach Christ Jesus Crucified to the Jews and others, get the Jews to repent BEFORE the DOTL. 2.) Pray down the plagues on Mankind, so they die at the end of the 2nd Woe, thus their prayers for the 3rd Woe {7th Trumpet} have already gone out to the Father/Son/God. This is why they are reviled by the world. So they die, lay in the streets for 3.5 days, then arise and the 7th Trumpet is blown as the 2nd Woe is ending, they must die during the 2nd Woe.

    The Demon Apollyon is destined for perdition, but that only means he has destiny to be damned to hell, the timing isn't relevant. Apollyon is the Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. 17 with NO CROWNS. He was the prince of Persia in Dan. 10, he was over the Mediterranean Sea Region until God placed him in the bottomless pit for the duration of the Church Age. He will be released to coincide with the Anti-Christ taking over the Mediterranean Sea Region again.

    They start their Ministry 75 Days before the Anti-Christ, they thus finish their 1260 day "OFFICE" 75 days before the Beast finishes his 1260 day "OFFICE" as the Beast.

    Unfortunately, Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet [singular] before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
    Well if Elijah is one of the Two-witnesses {and he is} then both have to show up at the same time.

    Matt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

    The above passages in Matthew corroborate Mal 4:5-6. In contrast, the reference to the 2Ws is plural:
    Unfortunately people misconstrue these passages, Jesus is not saying that John the Baptist is Elijah, he's MAKING A POINT, that if the Jews had of been ready to Repent, John did just as good a job as Elijah will do. He came in the Spirit of Elijah, {a call unto repentance}. I can put it together if needed to prove the passages are not saying the John is Elijah. Jesus tells them that Elijah will indeed come to restore Israel before the Son of Man returns to save/restore Israel. But that is just before the Second Coming and 75 days before the DOTL. If needed I can go through it and show that Jesus even states that John is not Elijah, or is it an Angel that says it. Anyway Jesus is just taking up for John the Baptists Ministry, hes saying basically, no man ever born to a woman was ever a better man than John the Baptist, [its not his fault Israel did not Repent as a nation.] You can trust me on this or I can go through it, either way, its all good.

    I am confused with your statement "the Two-Witnesses will thus show up 75 days BEFORE the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast and die 75 Days before he dies".?

    Why 75 days when scripture is clear that they will show up for a total of 1260 days (Rev 11:4)?
    You have to JUXTAPOSE the two against each other. If the Beast reigns 42 Months {1260 days} and the Two-witnesses show up 75 days before he comes to power as the Beast, then they DIE 75 days before he dies as the Beast, then don't they both have parallel "OFFICES" save the 75 day offsets ? If two businesses open for 10 years, one opens 75 days before the 2nd one and closes 75 days before the 2nd one closes, aren't they both open for 10 years ?

    The 1335, 1290 and 1260 gives us our timeline of Events. Each is how many days from a certain event until these Wonders End. The 1260 is the Beast Conquering the Holy people, Jesus {Man in Linen} says that its 1260 days from the time Jerusalem is conquered until all these wonders end {Second Coming} The 1290 is likewise 1290 days until these Wonders End {Second Coming} ad the 1335 is 1335 days until these wonders end {Second Coming.}.

    1.) 1335 the Two-witnesses show up to turn Israel back unto God.

    2.) 1290 is the False Prophet {High Priest} forbidding the Jews from worshiping Jesus and then defiling the Temple by placing an Image of the E.U. President in the Temple.

    3.) The Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem, the Jews had 30 days to Flee Judea.

    So they do show up for 1260 days, but its not parallel with the Beasts 1260 days, the Jews HAVE to repent first, else how would they know to Flee Judea ? Or where to go ?

    Look at it like this.....

    ..........................................1335 days BEFORE the Second Coming the Two-witnesses show up................................................ .........{2W die}......Second Coming.
    .................................................. 1290 days BEFORE the Second Coming the Abomination happens........................................... ............................Second Coming.
    .................................................. .......1260 day's BEFORE the Second Coming the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem......................................... .........Second Coming.

    From the 1335 until the 2 witnesses die is 1260 days, they just show up before the Beast Conquers Jerusalem via 75 days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I concede that Rev 11 is not as clear cut as we would have liked. However, I'm not sure that the Witnesses died in the 2nd Woe. I think it's the first. This is my reason:

    Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
    Rev 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.


    Now Rev 11:7 gave us the identity of their killer and we see him (Abaddon/Apollyon) ( in Rev 9:11. Verse 12 tells us that the 1st Woe is over; therefore, (this is my thoughts) isn't it logical to associate the death of the 2Ws to the timescale the angel of the bottomless pit was on the scene, ie in the 1st Woe? There's certainly no other mention of him elsewhere to suggest he spent much time around. In fact, scripture says he went into perdition. A reference in my view that God removed him as soon as he completed his deed against the Witnesses.

    Therefore, I don't believe it is proper to place Apollyon beyond the 1st Woe as v-12 suggests that the 2nd Woe is about events not associated with the first where Abaddon is identified. I agree that the Witnesses would have finished their ministry BEFORE Jerusalem fail to the AC. And we know that this occurs in the onset of the AC's 3.5 years reign.
    Well I didn't want to put all this Scripture in to make the point, so I pointed towards the Rev. 11 passage where they die. We are each more familiar to some passages so.....

    Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. {They pray down Every Plague}

    11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    They die, then 3 1/2 days later the Second Woe Ends and the 7th Trumpet {3rd Woe starts}. The Demons during he 1st Woe are commanded to not hurt any men. The Two-witnesses job is two fold 1.) Preach Christ Jesus Crucified to the Jews and others, get the Jews to repent BEFORE the DOTL. 2.) Pray down the plagues on Mankind, so they die at the end of the 2nd Woe, thus their prayers for the 3rd Woe {7th Trumpet} have already gone out to the Father/Son/God. This is why they are reviled by the world. So they die, lay in the streets for 3.5 days, then arise and the 7th Trumpet is blown as the 2nd Woe is ending, they must die during the 2nd Woe.

    The Demon Apollyon is destined for perdition, but that only means he has destiny to be damned to hell, the timing isn't relevant. Apollyon is the Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. 17 with NO CROWNS. He was the prince of Persia in Dan. 10, he was over the Mediterranean Sea Region until God placed him in the bottomless pit for the duration of the Church Age. He will be released to coincide with the Anti-Christ taking over the Mediterranean Sea Region again.

    They start their Ministry 75 Days before the Anti-Christ, they thus finish their 1260 day "OFFICE" 75 days before the Beast finishes his 1260 day "OFFICE" as the Beast.

    Unfortunately, Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet [singular] before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
    Well if Elijah is one of the Two-witnesses {and he is} then both have to show up at the same time.

    Matt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

    The above passages in Matthew corroborate Mal 4:5-6. In contrast, the reference to the 2Ws is plural:
    Unfortunately people misconstrue these passages, Jesus is not saying that John the Baptist is Elijah, he's MAKING A POINT, that if the Jews had of been ready to Repent, John did just as good a job as Elijah will do. He came in the Spirit of Elijah, {a call unto repentance}. I can put it together if needed to prove the passages are not saying the John is Elijah. Jesus tells them that Elijah will indeed come to restore Israel before the Son of Man returns to save/restore Israel. But that is just before the Second Coming and 75 days before the DOTL. If needed I can go through it and show that Jesus even states that John is not Elijah, or is it an Angel that says it. Anyway Jesus is just taking up for John the Baptists Ministry, hes saying basically, no man ever born to a woman was ever a better man than John the Baptist, [its not his fault Israel did not Repent as a nation.] You can trust me on this or I can go through it, either way, its all good.

    I am confused with your statement "the Two-Witnesses will thus show up 75 days BEFORE the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast and die 75 Days before he dies".?

    Why 75 days when scripture is clear that they will show up for a total of 1260 days (Rev 11:4)?
    You have to JUXTAPOSE the two against each other. If the Beast reigns 42 Months {1260 days} and the Two-witnesses show up 75 days before he comes to power as the Beast, then they DIE 75 days before he dies as the Beast, then don't they both have parallel "OFFICES" save the 75 day offsets ? If two businesses open for 10 years, one opens 75 days before the 2nd one and closes 75 days before the 2nd one closes, aren't they both open for 10 years ?

    The 1335, 1290 and 1260 gives us our timeline of Events. Each is how many days from a certain event until these Wonders End. The 1260 is the Beast Conquering the Holy people, Jesus {Man in Linen} says that its 1260 days from the time Jerusalem is conquered until all these wonders end {Second Coming} The 1290 is likewise 1290 days until these Wonders End {Second Coming} ad the 1335 is 1335 days until these wonders end {Second Coming.}.

    1.) 1335 the Two-witnesses show up to turn Israel back unto God.

    2.) 1290 is the False Prophet {High Priest} forbidding the Jews from worshiping Jesus and then defiling the Temple by placing an Image of the E.U. President in the Temple.

    3.) The Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem, the Jews had 30 days to Flee Judea.

    So they do show up for 1260 days, but its not parallel with the Beasts 1260 days, the Jews HAVE to repent first, else how would they know to Flee Judea ? Or where to go ?

    Look at it like this.....

    ..........................................1335 days BEFORE the Second Coming the Two-witnesses show up................................................ .........{2W die}......Second Coming.
    .................................................. 1290 days BEFORE the Second Coming the Abomination happens........................................... ............................Second Coming.
    .................................................. .......1260 day's BEFORE the Second Coming the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem......................................... .........Second Coming.

    From the 1335 until the 2 witnesses die is 1260 days, they just show up before the Beast Conquers Jerusalem via 75 days.

  13. #43

    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The other verse is explaining why he came in the first place, the Rev 11 verse is declaring the time of wrath has arrived. Both reference the start or beginning of something.


    G2064
    ἔρχομαι
    erchomai
    er'-khom-ahee
    Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] word, ἐλεύθομαι eleuthomai or ἔλθω elthō; which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - accompany, appear, bring, come enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.
    It all depends on how the word is to be read... note the way this form of the word is used (90x out of the 637x total), and (again) see this same form of the word in this verse:

    https://biblehub.com/text/luke/11-31.htm

    "The Queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation and will condemn them. For she came [G2064 - elthen - (same) V-AIA-3S] from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, greater than Solomon is here." In this verse, it's speaking of something that occurred long before this was being said. The verse in question (by that, I mean the phrase with this word, not necessarily the entire verse), can be read either way, as I see it... and by viewing other contextual clues (as well as other issues, at to when His "wrath" starts--like seeing that of the Vials [the "seven LAST plagues" not the FIRST ones] it says "for IN THEM the wrath of God WAS COMPLETED [NOT, is STARTED]") then we can come to a reasonable conclusion as to whether it means it is just now starting, or whether it means it has started at some point earlier in the chronology (i.e. "has come," like some verses using this form of the word show)


    https://biblehub.com/greek/e_lthen_2064.htm [the 90x this form of the word is used, out of the 637x G2064 is used overall]

  14. #44
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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The Last Trump is an eighth trumpet.
    So yes Jesus returns with the Last Trumpet call, but it is NOT the 7th Trumpet call, for that is NOT the last.
    I have followed this idea that the last trump is not the 7th for a while and can only conclude that the doctrine is inconclusive. There is no hard evidence that the trumpet heralding the Feast of Tabernacles is indeed the "Last" trump that Paul associated with the Second Coming. That is not to say the possibility is not there.

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    Re: Will the 2 Witnesses 1260 days run concurrent or consecutive to the AC's 3.5 year

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thank you for your kind words. You are very polite. But have you considered that my argument (though speculative) produced a different answer to you. By default my argument must be flawed then. But I grant you your position with just one comment. The Beast's prominence must be great even at the beginning of his appearance, for he is able to do a deal with Israel and Islam that no-one has yet achieved. It is at the beginning of the 70th seven that he "strengthens THE Covenant" with Israel. This action is profound, for, to "strengthen" or "confirm" the Covenant with a daily oblation must mean that a Temple is built. Neither the Law, nor the oblations can be fulfilled without a Temple. If one considers that the Temple will stand side by side with the Al Aqsa*, the Beast must be both very persuasive and very powerful in politics and religion.

    * Because of the poisonous political atmosphere in Israel between Jew and Muslim, many scholars of the Bible think that the Al Aqsa must somehow be destroyed before the Temple that the Beast will occupy can be built. I judge that the Moslem holy place will not be destroyed because of Revelation 11:2. "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." This means that the Outer Court will exist with Gentiles occupying it - a sure sign that a Gentile edifice is nearby. The Outer Court is normally the domain of the Levites and the offerings (Exodus 27). If the Beast can achieve erecting a Jewish Temple next to a Moslem Holy Place, he will be both a master of diplomacy and have great power over both parties.
    Yes, it can't be denied that the Beast is influential even before his true character is revealed. Just as his forerunner (A4E) initially used cunning and flattery to make his claim to the throne acceptable (Dan 11:21), the Antichrist will also ostensibly come in amity to broker some agreement between the Muslims and Israel to pave the way for the building of the temple. But as scripture reveals, this feat is self-serving as he will in due course appropriate the temple for himself as God.

    But as you pointed out, Rev 11:2 denotes the presence of Gentiles in the immediate vicinity (outer court) of the temple. Whether this will be in the form of the Al Aqsa, some other structure or merely the presence of Gentiles going about their business is debatable.

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