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Thread: When was satan kicked out of heaven?

  1. #31
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    Re: When was satan kicked out of heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    What credentials does satan possess that stops him being cast out now.? What more does the Lord have to do?


    He was in heaven accusing us and laying claim to us, but the lord Jesus took that away from him when he rose from the dead and claimed the keys of death.
    Credentials is a odd choice of words...There are Several things scripturally that demand the delay in the fulfillment of the judgement of Satan...

    Jesus is currently sitting at the right hand WAITING until His enemies are made his footstool. Hebrews is clear that Christ is not currently reigning but is rather WAITING to reign on the earth with the saints.

    In the post resurrection time period, Paul said that Christ would SOON CRUSH SATAN UNDER YOUR FEET”. In other words this was not fulfilled at the cross.

    Also the gospel going to the nations and eventually succeeding is a prerequisite to Satan being cast out as Christ is requiring that the church be OVERCOMERS in this age. It’s illogical to require the church to overcome someone already bound in prison.

    The New Testament still calls Satan the “Prince and power of the air”. That’s hardly a accurate description for someone that’s is supposedly cast into the abyss.

    Side note: how is it under the amillennial
    View could Satan be “cast down” as the “deceiver of the whole world” according to Rev 12 if at the SAME TIME he is cast into the abyss so he can “No longer deceive the nations” according to Rev 20? You can’t have it both ways! IOW, he cannot be cast out as the deceiver of the whole world while at the same time not be able to deceive the world.

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    Re: When was satan kicked out of heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I appreciate this--an important argument with respect to this verse.
    Sometimes this "premature" demise of Satan is viewed with the Beast "who was, is not, and yet will come." Do you see any connection with this, or have an opinion on it? I really don't know, myself.
    Hey Randy, I’m not familiar with that view point.... I simply think John 12 is speaking about what the cross made possible, namely the ultimate destruction of Satan

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    Re: When was satan kicked out of heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Hey Randy, I’m not familiar with that view point.... I simply think John 12 is speaking about what the cross made possible, namely the ultimate destruction of Satan
    Totally agree, and I like the way you explain it.

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    Re: When was satan kicked out of heaven?

    To all on this thread need to realize that the woman flees into the wilderness IMEDIATELY and actually before the war in heaven and the dragon is cast out.

    Thus for one to see that Satan was cast out at the cross and or the man child is Jesus then the entire chapter needs to be a past event!

    Thus those claiming such need to give an account in detail when a 3.5 year period describing the events in Rev 12 occurred in the past. Not to mention the 3.5 years period in Rev 12 is the same 3.5 year period in Chapters 11 and 13.


    Also the woman cannot be the people of Israel, Mary, nor the church as the woman flees heaven to earth. No man flees heaven to earth.

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    Re: When was satan kicked out of heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
    John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth,will draw all peoples to Myself."


    Much is made of the word “now” in John 12:31 by amillennialist. But, a quick look at the grammar reveals something far different than what amillennialists claim. Note the two things connected with the word, “now.” The first is: ‚ "Now is the judgment of this world". ‛ The word “is” is a present tense verb, and connects the adverb “now” to the present ‚ judgment of this world.‛ However, the second statement, ‚now the ruler of this world will be cast out,‛ has a future tense verb, “will be cast out”. The use of the future tense verb with the adverb “now” implies that the action to be carried out in the future has now been made certain or possible, not that it is happening now. To indicate that it is happening now, one would use the present tense verb, “now the ruler of this world IS cast out.” Here is another example of the adverb “now” modifying a future tense verb.


    Luke 5:10 ... And Jesus said to Simon, "Do not be afraid. From now on you will catch men."


    The adverb, “now,”modifying a future tense verb, literally means, “after this.” It points to the beginning of a period of time during which the action of the verb will occur. It does not mean the action of the verb occurs “now.” The implication is that the change that is occurring “now” will result in some other action in the future. In John 12:31, Jesus meant that His present work “now” will make possible Satan’s being cast out in the future. In the same way Luke 5:10 means that Jesus’ calling Simon to be His disciple “now” will lead to Simon’s becoming a “fisher of men” in the future. One could not say that Simon became a “fisher of men” the very instant Jesus called him to be his disciple. His “fisher of men” activity began after he became an “apostle,” three and a half years later on the Day of Pentecost. Yet, Jesus’ calling him to be His disciple “now” made this future result possible. This is precisely what Jesus meant in John 12:31. Jesus’ present work on earth at His first coming “now” made a future result possible, Satan’s being “cast out.”


    It is true that Satan has been “judged” and “condemned.” But his sentence has not yet been carried out. Even amillennialist accept this as they too believe that fullness of Satan’s “judgment” is in the FUTURE when he is cast into the Lake of Fire. There is much more that must happen before one can say that Satan has been completely put down or “cast out.”
    31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

    The use of a colon is key here...the two halves are related but do not mean they happen simontanousely. That the one event will cause the other at some point.

    Thus the death on the cross brought judgement will cause the prince to be cast out but again needs not to be immediately denoted by the colon.

    I m ight also say there is another thought that when actual judgement comes at the GWT that in fact the prince of the world will be cast out to the LOF forever.

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    Re: When was satan kicked out of heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    To all on this thread need to realize that the woman flees into the wilderness IMEDIATELY and actually before the war in heaven and the dragon is cast out.

    Thus for one to see that Satan was cast out at the cross and or the man child is Jesus then the entire chapter needs to be a past event!

    Thus those claiming such need to give an account in detail when a 3.5 year period describing the events in Rev 12 occurred in the past. Not to mention the 3.5 years period in Rev 12 is the same 3.5 year period in Chapters 11 and 13.
    If you check the link I posted my thoughts are all in it

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    Re: When was satan kicked out of heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    If you check the link I posted my thoughts are all in it
    I link only takes my back to this thread and the only evidence you claim is John 12:27-33.


    I do not see where you explain all of rev 12 is past?

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    Re: When was satan kicked out of heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I link only takes my back to this thread and the only evidence you claim is John 12:27-33.


    I do not see where you explain all of rev 12 is past?
    Sorry try this one

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...ight=marty+fox

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    Re: When was satan kicked out of heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Revelation 12:1
    1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head

    The sign described above is showing us that the woman in this verse is the nation of Israel
    So again you say the woman is Israel. Note the woman is in heaven and she flees to earth. How can man flee from heaven to earth? Thus woman cannot be the people of Israel.


    Revelation 12:2
    2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

    We now see the woman as Mary who was of Israel and she is about to give birth to Jesus.

    How then does the woman become Mary? But again neither the people of Israel nor Mary flees heaven.


    Let's begin with you trying to answer this before I continue,

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    Re: When was satan kicked out of heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    So again you say the woman is Israel. Note the woman is in heaven and she flees to earth. How can man flee from heaven to earth? Thus woman cannot be the people of Israel.





    How then does the woman become Mary? But again neither the people of Israel nor Mary flees heaven.


    Let's begin with you trying to answer this before I continue,

    Revelation 12:1-6
    Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

    3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

    It’s a sign in heaven not a literal woman or dragon as it does say a sign

    We have symbolisms here a woman

    clothed in the sun

    The moon under her feet

    A garland of twelve stars on her head

    A dragon with seven heads ten horns and seven diadems his heads

    His tail swipes a third of the stars to the earth

    All these are symbolism so why would it be actual people in heaven?

    It’s just a symbolic sign representing something not actual people in heaven. She doesn’t flee heaven to the worlderness as there is no safer than heaven so it must mean in the heavens as in the sky not actual heaven

    Do you think that it is just a coincidence that the description of the woman matches Joseph’s dream or was the description revealing who the woman is?

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    Re: When was satan kicked out of heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Revelation 12:1-6
    It’s a sign in heaven not a literal woman or dragon as it does say a sign. It’s just a symbolic sign representing something not actual people in heaven.
    I understand you must have the above be true for your theory. But clearly the woman and dragon are located in heaven. I don't think the woman (city) nor the dragon (spirit) are people thus I have no dilemma and have to twist the scripture so that the view of a person(s) being the woman can be accepted

    1. John says they are in heaven.
    2. A third of the stars seen in heaven are cast to earth
    3. There is a war in Heaven with Michael and angels. Does this not happen in heaven?
    4. The dragon is cast of heaven to earth.
    5. Voices heard in heaven as the accuser (dragon) is cast DOWN.


    She doesn’t flee heaven to the wilderness as there is no safer than heaven so it must mean in the heavens as in the sky not actual heaven
    So the woman does flee from somewhere to the wilderness. But now you say the location she flees is heaven in being the skies?


    Do you think that it is just a coincidence that the description of the woman matches Joseph’s dream or was the description revealing who the woman is?
    Well the 12 stars do represent the 12 tribes. Notice the 12 circled around the woman and then the mention of the moon and sun. The woman is the heavenly city Jerusalem.

    Now the woman of rev 17 is called a city, why is it a stretch then to think the woman of Rev 12 can't be a city?


    IS 66
    6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
    7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

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    Re: When was satan kicked out of heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I understand you must have the above be true for your theory. But clearly the woman and dragon are located in heaven. I don't think the woman (city) nor the dragon (spirit) are people thus I have no dilemma and have to twist the scripture so that the view of a person(s) being the woman can be accepted

    1. John says they are in heaven.
    2. A third of the stars seen in heaven are cast to earth
    3. There is a war in Heaven with Michael and angels. Does this not happen in heaven?
    4. The dragon is cast of heaven to earth.
    5. Voices heard in heaven as the accuser (dragon) is cast DOWN.




    So the woman does flee from somewhere to the wilderness. But now you say the location she flees is heaven in being the skies?


    Well the 12 stars do represent the 12 tribes. Notice the 12 circled around the woman and then the mention of the moon and sun. The woman is the heavenly city Jerusalem.

    Now the woman of rev 17 is called a city, why is it a stretch then to think the woman of Rev 12 can't be a city?


    IS 66
    6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
    7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
    My point is that the woman and the dragon are a sign in heaven not literally in heaven

    Revelation 12:17
    17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus [c]Christ

    If the woman is the New Jerusalem the city and the saints are the rest of her offspring then who are the other first offspring who aren’t the saints?

    I think the New Jerusalem actually is the church the bride of the lamb

    Revelation 21:2
    2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

    Revelation 21:9-10
    9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came [f]to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the [g]bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the [h]great city, the [i]holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

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    Re: When was satan kicked out of heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    My point is that the woman and the dragon are a sign in heaven not literally in heaven
    My point is that they must be in heaven.

    1. John says they are in heaven.
    2. A third of the stars seen in heaven are cast to earth
    3. There is a war in Heaven with Michael and angels. Does this not happen in heaven?
    4. The dragon is cast of heaven to earth.
    5. Voices heard in heaven as the accuser (dragon) is cast DOWN.

    How do you respond to this.

    Revelation 12:17
    17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus [c]Christ
    The dragon makes war with the offspring which we see in the next chapter.

    Rev 13
    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:


    If the woman is the New Jerusalem the city and the saints are the rest of her offspring then who are the other first offspring who aren’t the saints?
    I am not saying the woman is the state of NJ. The woman only becomes new after Christ returns aka NHNE. Before this the woman was to be the bride however she flees to earth and then commits fornication with the beast (wrong bridegroom), thus like the NHNE and all of us she too needs to become anew.

  14. #44

    Re: When was satan kicked out of heaven?

    I don't know if I read Revelation 12:1 different to everyone else, but I have this funny feeling I do for I see the sign as the woman becoming with child, in other words I don't see the sign as a woman, or a woman entering heaven but instead I see it as pregnancy entering the woman (who then being with child vs2).

    To clarify how I see this sign seen in heaven, The Word becomes flesh and even lowers himself lower than the angels to dwell among us, or in other words, its simply the Lord vacates his throne in heaven by leaving heaven and goes to earth. This is the sign seen in heaven, and it is even declared to men by these witnesses in heaven.

    Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,

    “Glory to God in the highest heaven,
    and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”

    When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.”

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    Re: When was satan kicked out of heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    I don't know if I read Revelation 12:1 different to everyone else, but I have this funny feeling I do for I see the sign as the woman becoming with child, in other words I don't see the sign as a woman, or a woman entering heaven but instead I see it as pregnancy entering the woman (who then being with child vs2).

    To clarify how I see this sign seen in heaven, The Word becomes flesh and even lowers himself lower than the angels to dwell among us, or in other words, its simply the Lord vacates his throne in heaven by leaving heaven and goes to earth. This is the sign seen in heaven, and it is even declared to men by these witnesses in heaven.

    Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,

    “Glory to God in the highest heaven,
    and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”

    When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.”
    This is a good analogy and what i'm basically saying but you said it better the sign of the woman represents Israel who gave birth to Jesus through Mary

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