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Thread: the forbidden fruit

  1. #31
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    This isn't about literal trees or fruit. The same is true about the garden of Eden and the two certain trees and their fruit.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  2. #32
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    This isn't about literal trees or fruit. The same is true about the garden of Eden and the two certain trees and their fruit.
    Totally agree. If they are true for actual trees they are true principles with respect to our obedience or disobedience to God's word. We will produce the fruit of our behavior, obedience or disobedience. If we walk in Christ, we will produce the fruit of eternal life.

  3. #33
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; From Heb 2:14
    that He might destroy the works of the devil. From 1 John 3:8

    for the devil sinneth from the beginning

    Assuming the sin of the devil took place before the creation of man and God was going to deal with that sin, how was God going to deal with the sin of the devil and his works?

    How was God going to destroy the devil and his power of death?

    Or do you all not think the devil was the adversary of God before the creation of man?

    Before the foundation of the world would the means of God destroying the devil and his power and his works come about by, redemption? 1 Peter 1:18-20

    Before the foundation of the world, redemption, from what? Redeem ? does it mean to buy back?

    Before the foundation of the world was there a Son of God born of woman, a manifested Son of God to destroy the works of the devil?

    Why was man created in the image of God yet created of flesh with his, life being, soul, in the blood?

    Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. KJV
    for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul. Darby

    For the life, nephesh, soul of the flesh.

    Before the foundation of the world, the plan, was for things to take place according to, the plan.

    God, is Christ, was not correcting an error by Adam.

    Once again: For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope Rom 8:20 ASV

    In hope of the obedience of One, Christ, not Adam.
    Faith is. the substance of hoped for, the evidence of the unseen, Christ, Obedience of Faith.
    I do think that Satan fell, with his angels, before the fall of man. Otherwise, he would not have tempted man.

    I think Christ was anticipated from the foundation of the earth, as the solution to the possible scenario that Satan would deceive man. God wasn't going to fail, since He had already planned to reveal His Son at the proper time. The purpose was to create a world-wide brotherhood for Christ, with Christ representing God's leadership in the midst of humanity.

    In the event man fell to Satan, Christ would come, now as redeemer, to save God's plan for mankind, which can never fail. The loss of some men does not represent the failure of God's word. Those who reject God's word simply have no role to play in God's Kingdom, since they represent failure among mankind. There will always be those, among men, who obey God's word, and thus fulfill God's plan for mankind.

  4. #34

    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I do think that Satan fell, with his angels, before the fall of man. Otherwise, he would not have tempted man.

    I think Christ was anticipated from the foundation of the earth, as the solution to the possible scenario that Satan would deceive man. God wasn't going to fail, since He had already planned to reveal His Son at the proper time. The purpose was to create a world-wide brotherhood for Christ, with Christ representing God's leadership in the midst of humanity.

    In the event man fell to Satan, Christ would come, now as redeemer, to save God's plan for mankind, which can never fail. The loss of some men does not represent the failure of God's word. Those who reject God's word simply have no role to play in God's Kingdom, since they represent failure among mankind. There will always be those, among men, who obey God's word, and thus fulfill God's plan for mankind.


    Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20

    The vain conversation was received from the very first father, Adam.

    Before the foundation of the world, before Adam was created, Christ was foreordained to shed his precious blood.

    Not in event if Adam sinned but because Adam was going to sin.

    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom 5:19 One? Adam? Enoch? Noah? Abraham? The seed (sg as of one) of Abraham?

    If Adam had been obedient, the righteousness of God, would have come by the obedience of one, Adam. Before the foundation of the world that wasn't going to be so.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I do think that Satan fell, with his angels, before the fall of man. Otherwise, he would not have tempted man.

    I think Christ was anticipated from the foundation of the earth, as the solution to the possible scenario that Satan would deceive man. God wasn't going to fail, since He had already planned to reveal His Son at the proper time. The purpose was to create a world-wide brotherhood for Christ, with Christ representing God's leadership in the midst of humanity.

    In the event man fell to Satan, Christ would come, now as redeemer, to save God's plan for mankind, which can never fail. The loss of some men does not represent the failure of God's word. Those who reject God's word simply have no role to play in God's Kingdom, since they represent failure among mankind. There will always be those, among men, who obey God's word, and thus fulfill God's plan for mankind.


    Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20

    The vain conversation was received from the very first father, Adam.

    Before the foundation of the world, before Adam was created, Christ was foreordained to shed his precious blood.

    Not in event if Adam sinned but because Adam was going to sin.

    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom 5:19 One? Adam? Enoch? Noah? Abraham? The seed (sg as of one) of Abraham?

    If Adam had been obedient, the righteousness of God, would have come by the obedience of one, Adam. Before the foundation of the world that wasn't going to be so.

  5. #35
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20

    The vain conversation was received from the very first father, Adam.

    Before the foundation of the world, before Adam was created, Christ was foreordained to shed his precious blood.
    That's not what I think is said. Christ was planned to come before the creation of the universe. But he was not planned *to die* before the creation of the universe. That would've forecast the Fall of Man, and God clearly did *not* want Man to fall!!

    Quote Originally Posted by percho
    Not in event if Adam sinned but because Adam was going to sin.
    That is fatalism. Man really didn't have a choice, in your scheme, because Man was "going to sin." Man was predestined to fall. I don't believe that. I believe in Free Will. God's dealings with Man is predicated upon the reality of Free Will. Some things can be known in advance. God certainly knew what would happen in either case, whether Man fell or did not fall. But free choice was the occasion, clearly.

    Quote Originally Posted by percho
    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom 5:19 One? Adam? Enoch? Noah? Abraham? The seed (sg as of one) of Abraham?

    If Adam had been obedient, the righteousness of God, would have come by the obedience of one, Adam. Before the foundation of the world that wasn't going to be so.
    Paul's theology is based on reality after the Fall. He is not referring to things that might've been, had Man not fallen.

  6. #36
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    Cool Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That's not what I think is said. Christ was planned to come before the creation of the universe. But he was not planned *to die* before the creation of the universe. That would've forecast the Fall of Man, and God clearly did *not* want Man to fall!!
    -
    That is fatalism. Man really didn't have a choice, in your scheme, because Man was "going to sin." Man was predestined to fall. I don't believe that. I believe in Free Will. God's dealings with Man is predicated upon the reality of Free Will. Some things can be known in advance. God certainly knew what would happen in either case, whether Man fell or did not fall. But free choice was the occasion, clearly.
    -
    Paul's theology is based on reality after the Fall. He is not referring to things that might've been, had Man not fallen.
    It is ludicrous to think God did not know the future when it comes to the fall. Surely, Satan was already fallen by the time he tempted Eve in the Garden. Scripture wouldn't fit any other way. If God knew each and every one of us and our works from before the foundation of the world, would He not know of the fall?

    Hebrews 4:3 "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."

    You need to stop denying the power of God. 2 Tim. 3:5 "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  7. #37
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    It is ludicrous to think God did not know the future when it comes to the fall. Surely, Satan was already fallen by the time he tempted Eve in the Garden. Scripture wouldn't fit any other way. If God knew each and every one of us and our works from before the foundation of the world, would He not know of the fall?

    Hebrews 4:3 "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."

    You need to stop denying the power of God. 2 Tim. 3:5 "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
    I don't deny the power of God. I just deny that you know what you claim to know, that God planned for the Fall of Man. It "sounds" good to say "God knows everything." But within His power is the ability to convey Free Will to created agents like Angels and Men. This goes without saying. Otherwise, the fix is in!

    As I said, God knows, in any event, what the outcome will be, whether a free agent chooses one way or another way. All possible outcomes are anticipated.

    I agree that Satan likely fell *before* Man fell. I think there is an entire untold story about the fall of Satan and the angels that followed him. However, God does not lead us in this direction, and if so, it's wise that we not spend too much time on it. We are to ignore and reject Satan.

  8. #38

    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't deny the power of God. I just deny that you know what you claim to know, that God planned for the Fall of Man. It "sounds" good to say "God knows everything." But within His power is the ability to convey Free Will to created agents like Angels and Men. This goes without saying. Otherwise, the fix is in!

    As I said, God knows, in any event, what the outcome will be, whether a free agent chooses one way or another way. All possible outcomes are anticipated.

    I agree that Satan likely fell *before* Man fell. I think there is an entire untold story about the fall of Satan and the angels that followed him. However, God does not lead us in this direction, and if so, it's wise that we not spend too much time on it. We are to ignore and reject Satan.
    If the fall of Satan preceded the creation of man, of which I believe so;

    Do you think the creation of man had anything to do with the fall of Satan?

    Was, flesh and blood man, Adam, necessary to the manifestation of the Son of God in flesh and blood, Christ, in order that the devil and his works could be destroyed?

    References 1 John 3:8 Heb. 2:14 Rom 8:3

    Was, sin, necessary in order to bring about, the death?

    1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

    Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

    Four verses in the word of God. Was God, that good, light? What was, the darkness, that good light was divided from?

    Was was God about to begin to do? 1 John 3:8? Hebrews 2:14?

  9. #39
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    Cool Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't deny the power of God. I just deny that you know what you claim to know, that God planned for the Fall of Man. It "sounds" good to say "God knows everything." But within His power is the ability to convey Free Will to created agents like Angels and Men. This goes without saying. Otherwise, the fix is in!

    As I said, God knows, in any event, what the outcome will be, whether a free agent chooses one way or another way. All possible outcomes are anticipated.

    I agree that Satan likely fell *before* Man fell. I think there is an entire untold story about the fall of Satan and the angels that followed him. However, God does not lead us in this direction, and if so, it's wise that we not spend too much time on it. We are to ignore and reject Satan.
    This is an article from my website that ponders the question "Why Earth?" as to what God is doing.

    Why would God cast the rebellious angels to the earth where He was starting a new work with man? It only makes sense when you look at it from God’s perspective. God set in motion rules that differentiated right from wrong, in other words He defined good and evil. He then created these angels and put them in charge of His governing body with Lucifer as the head: Eze. 28:14 “Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.”

    Lucifer, along with a third of the angels, decided to try themselves to decide good and evil. They said why is something evil just because God says so? I feel just like with humans evil becomes a trap that keeps us from doing good. Evil is habit forming. I believe the world became dark and void from that mismanagement. I believe the war in heaven was this casting down of Satan and his fellows.

    So, God starts a new work with mankind right here where Satan can influence him. He then even puts the means for mankind’s fall in the same place (The tree of knowledge of good and evil). God knew Satan would deceive Eve and Adam would follow. All part of the plan. We see the same sin played out over and over of trying to establish what we think is good.

    God could have put the fallen angels on Mars or Venus, or anywhere other than here. God is showing all the angels, fallen or otherwise, plus all mankind the results of not letting Him decide right from wrong. In other words, God is purging His universe of evil and showing us why evil is wrong. All the while He is building Godly character within us by overcoming in faith. I am not sure just how that works, bur I am sure God does.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  10. #40
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20
    Christ was indeed foreordained to come to earth, to be the Lord in our midst. If he was foreordained to die at all, it would've been a backup plan in the event Man chose to rebel against God's word. That was not pre-planned. That is, God did *not* predetermine that Man reject His own word! That's absurd and contradictory.

  11. #41
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    This is an article from my website that ponders the question "Why Earth?" as to what God is doing.
    Yes, I've had my own scenario and explanation, but found little to prove my theories with. And so, I've fallen back to only what I know and to what is logical. God gave angels free will, and He did the same for Man. It played out just the way it did. If God told Satan what to do, and Satan didn't do that, then God did *not* plan for Satan to fail. If God told Man was *not* to do, and Man did it anyway, God did *not* plan for Man to rebel. Otherwise, God is inconsistent, and everything is illogical.

    And so, I don't believe God pre-planned failure for either Satan or Man. He just gave them free choice. And it has simply played out the way it has. Since God can never fail, the failure of Satan and Man does not cause God to fail--it only caused *them* to fail. God continues on with Plan A, and succeeds in everything He intended to do. The Plan B is a backup plan to take care of the "failure" part. And clearly, God always had a potential remedy in mind, should either Satan or Man fail.

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    Cool Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, I've had my own scenario and explanation, but found little to prove my theories with. And so, I've fallen back to only what I know and to what is logical. God gave angels free will, and He did the same for Man. It played out just the way it did. If God told Satan what to do, and Satan didn't do that, then God did *not* plan for Satan to fail. If God told Man was *not* to do, and Man did it anyway, God did *not* plan for Man to rebel. Otherwise, God is inconsistent, and everything is illogical.

    And so, I don't believe God pre-planned failure for either Satan or Man. He just gave them free choice. And it has simply played out the way it has. Since God can never fail, the failure of Satan and Man does not cause God to fail--it only caused *them* to fail. God continues on with Plan A, and succeeds in everything He intended to do. The Plan B is a backup plan to take care of the "failure" part. And clearly, God always had a potential remedy in mind, should either Satan or Man fail.
    See, you are trying to understand God with your finite mind. We don't know how predestination and choice work together but they are both real and God works them both. God knowing our future does not negate our choices.

    You can't say all of the creation of earth took an unplanned path when God knows all things. It just doesn't jive. It's like trying to comprehend the HS being everywhere at once. If we are realistic, we can't imagine it.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  13. #43
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    See, you are trying to understand God with your finite mind.
    Are you suggesting we try to figure God out with our "infinite mind?"
    Brother, there is no other way to understand God than through the use of our finite minds. And we do so, legitimately, by receiving divine revelation, which does indeed speak to our finite minds.

    "Come now, let us reason together," says the Lord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade
    We don't know how predestination and choice work together but they are both real and God works them both. God knowing our future does not negate our choices.
    I am indeed a predestinarian. And I do believe God uses "backup plans" to get what He originally called for. That is called "Predestination." And it does allow for "free choice," which is what is assumed to exist in the biblical stories. To reject Free Choice is to negate the biblical stories. It would be a farce to say Man did not really have a choice when God plainly gave Man one!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade
    You can't say all of the creation of earth took an unplanned path when God knows all things. It just doesn't jive. It's like trying to comprehend the HS being everywhere at once. If we are realistic, we can't imagine it.
    I can certainly imagine the scenario I've presented to you. I don't know why you can't?

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    Cool Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Are you suggesting we try to figure God out with our "infinite mind?"
    Brother, there is no other way to understand God than through the use of our finite minds. And we do so, legitimately, by receiving divine revelation, which does indeed speak to our finite minds.

    "Come now, let us reason together," says the Lord.

    I am indeed a predestinarian. And I do believe God uses "backup plans" to get what He originally called for. That is called "Predestination." And it does allow for "free choice," which is what is assumed to exist in the biblical stories. To reject Free Choice is to negate the biblical stories. It would be a farce to say Man did not really have a choice when God plainly gave Man one!

    I can certainly imagine the scenario I've presented to you. I don't know why you can't?
    No Randy, we can't figure out God with an infinite mind we don't have. God doesn't expect us to figure Him out. If we could really perceive God, we wouldn't need faith which He requires.

    It looks like we pretty much agree with each other about choice and predestination. Maybe with the exception you see a plan A of mankind with no fall that I don't.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    No Randy, we can't figure out God with an infinite mind we don't have. God doesn't expect us to figure Him out. If we could really perceive God, we wouldn't need faith which He requires.

    It looks like we pretty much agree with each other about choice and predestination. Maybe with the exception you see a plan A of mankind with no fall that I don't.
    Yes, you take a very common view, among Christians, that God "knows everything," that God anticipates everything we do, whatever we do. That doesn't make sense to me. If I truly have free choice, how can God know whether I will go to the left or to the right? My solution to this is simply to say that God sees *both choices" as possibilities, and has an answer to either result.

    As to understanding God with our finite mind, I agree that we cannot fully comprehend God. But God does, of course, speak to us on our level. And this is called "divine revelation." God's word appears to us in a way we can comprehend, and we can ascertain that it is authoritative and from God. This is what produces "faith" in us, as you suggested.

    I'm glad we agree on Predestination and Free Choice. Working out the details may go beyond the "pay grade" of mankind?

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