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Thread: the forbidden fruit

  1. #46

    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    This is a good topic that I've often discussed with the Calvinist's. Adam and Eve were not carnal and did not have a sin nature, right ? So why / how did they 'choose' to be disobedient ? To me , it's really a redundant question that we aren't in the position to answer.

    I think it all comes down to choice and simple obedience on our end. That's all we are responsible for and really all we should be focused on. Choose God, or not.

    it's plainly written why they did in chapter three instead of considering it in answerable consider the scripture....

    God said " you must not eat the fruit for when you do you will surely die" he said this to keep Adam safe .

    the serpent then deceived them very cleverly , and used this commandment of God that was meant to keep them safe , to curse them. Notice as soon as the serpent tells her " no you will not surely die , God knows it will make you as gods knowing good and evil"

    this has now presented an alternative belief to Eve the opposite of Gods word . As soon as Eve hears the serpents explaination her perception instantly changes of the forbidden fruit, it's no longer dangerous in Eve's mind. " she saw that it was good for food, pleasant to the eye and desirable for gaining wisdom ...so she took some and ate, and her husband was with her and he took and ate and then ......everything changes between God and mankind and we need salvation, reconciliation , resurrection...

    the blame goes first to the serpent " because you have done this cursed are you.....then to the woman , then to Adam " because you have hearkened unto the voice of your wife ( who hearkened to the voice of the serpent ) and ate of the tree which I told you not to.......you will return to the dust from whence you came....then he exiles mankind from Eden , then he forbids and prevents mankind any access to the tree of life, then ....men begin making sacrifice to God.....the first man born in Adams image, murders the second born in his image....and by the tenth generation " God is grieved in his heart that he made mankind on the earth , he is repenting for making mankind because they are evil at heart now....all because they were not meant to have knowledge of evil , but to live in Gods image of righteousness and holiness....Satan deceived them and corrupted them with evil....

  2. #47
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    God is grieved in his heart that he made mankind on the earth , he is repenting for making mankind because they are evil at heart now....all because they were not meant to have knowledge of evil
    Wait, it's not the tree of only the knowledge of evil but also knowledge of good....if they weren't meant to know of evil then by the same logic they weren't supposed to have knowledge of good as well.

    Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  3. #48

    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is pure conjecture on my part, for your consideration. I view the forbidden tree as put in the Garden of Eden to demonstrate the authority of God's word for Man in matters involving what Man may *not* do.
    That's quite orthodox. It's the view presented by C.S. Lewis in the novel Perelandra.

  4. #49
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    That's quite orthodox. It's the view presented by C.S. Lewis in the novel Perelandra.
    Oh good. I like C.S. Lewis! I've watched a movie on his life, and read "Mere Christianity." It seems he's influenced very many of my friends, as well as Christianity as a whole. I love the idea that he was able to synchronize, or synthesize, Christian truth and literature. I feel I'm on very solid ground!

  5. #50

    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Oh good. I like C.S. Lewis! I've watched a movie on his life, and read "Mere Christianity." It seems he's influenced very many of my friends, as well as Christianity as a whole. I love the idea that he was able to synchronize, or synthesize, Christian truth and literature. I feel I'm on very solid ground!
    Perelendra is his 2nd science fiction novel, set on Venus, which is imagined as an ocean planet, with one "Venus-Adam" and one "Venus-Eve." They live on floating islands made of plants, and the command God has given them is never to spend the night on the "fixed land." Satan comes and tempts the "Venus-Eve" to disobey God's command, and the human character who is visiting Venus must help Venus-Eve to resist temptation:

    I think He made one law of that kind in order that there might be obedience. In all these other matters what you call obeying Him is but doing what seems good in your own eyes also. Is love content with that? You do them, indeed, because they are His will, but not only because they are His will. Where can you taste the joy of obeying unless He bids you do something for which His bidding is the only reason?

  6. #51
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    Perelendra is his 2nd science fiction novel, set on Venus, which is imagined as an ocean planet, with one "Venus-Adam" and one "Venus-Eve." They live on floating islands made of plants, and the command God has given them is never to spend the night on the "fixed land." Satan comes and tempts the "Venus-Eve" to disobey God's command, and the human character who is visiting Venus must help Venus-Eve to resist temptation:

    I think He made one law of that kind in order that there might be obedience. In all these other matters what you call obeying Him is but doing what seems good in your own eyes also. Is love content with that? You do them, indeed, because they are His will, but not only because they are His will. Where can you taste the joy of obeying unless He bids you do something for which His bidding is the only reason?
    Wow, I'm in some good company in my thinking! Thanks for that.

    But seriously, we could've been free only to do what's good for us, to do what is right in our eyes. But there was clearly put in front of Man the option to not always follow the good path, to define good for one's self.

    That may seem strange, or risky for God. However, Free Choice would have to allow for another option, even if it was of the least benefit for Man. The fact Man chose for it is strange. But then again, Satan and his angels chose this, as did Man in the beginning. Yes, there really is something called a "mistake," which can allow for a 2nd look (at least in Man's case).

    The pull to do things one's own way, to the loss of all good, can be a tremendous temptation, when that option gives one absolute power. The saying is true: absolute power corrupts absolutely. If we don't leave God on the throne, power will go to our heads.

  7. #52

    Re: the forbidden fruit

    When was the, "creation," complete? What established it as being complete?

  8. #53
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    When was the, "creation," complete? What established it as being complete?
    Just before there was need for a "new creation."

  9. #54

    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Wait, it's not the tree of only the knowledge of evil but also knowledge of good....if they weren't meant to know of evil then by the same logic they weren't supposed to have knowledge of good as well.Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
    they were made in Gods image ....and he called them very good. They were good it's why they were naked in his presence and not ashamed before they partook of the knowledge of evil. Consider young man who is raised with great morals , you tell them thier whole life " don't drink, don't do drugs , it will lead you somewhere terrible" later they fall in with the wrong crowd and begin doing drugs....now they KNOW the feeling of the high , they know how it altars the mind , how it helps forget problems ect....this is the nature of the fruit. Man was made in Gods image in his likeness, in other words we were modeled and designed to be morally like God , our nature in the beginning came straight out of God when he breathed into mans nostrils. Man was pure. It's the very reason Satan deceived them into eating the fruit , it imparted knowledge of good and evil .beforehand they were naked and unashamed , because in thier minds there was no lust they weren't lusting after each other's bodies , thier kinds were pure and clean , they wouldn't have even considered sin , because again , they had no knowledge in them of evil. Notice the moment they eat....then they are changed instantly , they are afraid when God comes near ashamed because thier naked now, they withdraw and hide from his presence....just beforehand they are unashamed to be naked ....do you think maybe the knowledge of evil changed something in them ? To where they thought " it's shameful to be naked , it's wrong. The knowledge changed their minds perception of God, themselves and produced a conflicted nature we condor both good and evil now , we're weak toward evil and just as God said .....we now have short loves and then die.....A lot of people think Gods will was that they knew evil....but ...why did he say clearly do not partake of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? His will is simply what he says . His will was that man be blessed , fruitful. Multiply and have dominion on earth . It's the serpents will that they are the fruit of the Knowledge of good and evil. The reason the serpent deceived them , is because God had given all dominion over the earth ...to mankind and Satan wanted dominion. So how does he accomplish it? He corrupts the one who is king, and infiltrates mans mind so that satans will ( sin) can run its course ....which we seein chapter six....did just that and had made mankind only evil all the time in our thoughts and imaginations".....at this point God regrets even making mankind and declares destruction of all the men and animals because they have been corrupted and corrupted his ways ...God didn't make us sinners , he made us like him....Satan then led the world astray through , yes, the knowledge of good and evil....it's why God forbade it from the start...wasn't meantime mankind to know evil, but to be made after Gods image and likeness....which is not the image of a sinner

  10. #55
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    they were made in Gods image ....and he called them very good. They were good it's why they were naked in his presence and not ashamed before they partook of the knowledge of evil. Consider young man who is raised with great morals , you tell them thier whole life " don't drink, don't do drugs , it will lead you somewhere terrible" later they fall in with the wrong crowd and begin doing drugs....now they KNOW the feeling of the high , they know how it altars the mind , how it helps forget problems ect....this is the nature of the fruit. Man was made in Gods image in his likeness, in other words we were modeled and designed to be morally like God , our nature in the beginning came straight out of God when he breathed into mans nostrils. Man was pure. It's the very reason Satan deceived them into eating the fruit , it imparted knowledge of good and evil .beforehand they were naked and unashamed , because in thier minds there was no lust they weren't lusting after each other's bodies , thier kinds were pure and clean , they wouldn't have even considered sin , because again , they had no knowledge in them of evil. Notice the moment they eat....then they are changed instantly , they are afraid when God comes near ashamed because thier naked now, they withdraw and hide from his presence....just beforehand they are unashamed to be naked ....do you think maybe the knowledge of evil changed something in them ? To where they thought " it's shameful to be naked , it's wrong. The knowledge changed their minds perception of God, themselves and produced a conflicted nature we condor both good and evil now , we're weak toward evil and just as God said .....we now have short loves and then die.....A lot of people think Gods will was that they knew evil....but ...why did he say clearly do not partake of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? His will is simply what he says . His will was that man be blessed , fruitful. Multiply and have dominion on earth . It's the serpents will that they are the fruit of the Knowledge of good and evil. The reason the serpent deceived them , is because God had given all dominion over the earth ...to mankind and Satan wanted dominion. So how does he accomplish it? He corrupts the one who is king, and infiltrates mans mind so that satans will ( sin) can run its course ....which we seein chapter six....did just that and had made mankind only evil all the time in our thoughts and imaginations".....at this point God regrets even making mankind and declares destruction of all the men and animals because they have been corrupted and corrupted his ways ...God didn't make us sinners , he made us like him....Satan then led the world astray through , yes, the knowledge of good and evil....it's why God forbade it from the start...wasn't meantime mankind to know evil, but to be made after Gods image and likeness....which is not the image of a sinner
    There is nothing wrong with knowing about good and evil. There is something else about eating the fruit of this "tree" that is missing.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  11. #56

    Re: the forbidden fruit

    You are right , they weren't created with a sinful nature , they had the nature of God, made after his image and likeness. I'm not seeing anyone say they were deceived by the serpent.....that's what the bible says. Understanding to be deceived means you have been given a false perception and believe it.


    God first addresses the serpent...then Eve...then adam. They ate the fruit because the serpent deceived them. It's why hell was created for the devil who led the world astray .


    God said " the fruit is poison for you you will surely die"

    Satan said " the fruit is not poison you will not die "

    they believed a lie and ate because they then " saw that the fruit was good for food and good for wisdom. What they now " see" is based on what the serpent said to Eve....clear and simple deception. The "knowledge" changed their minds , which changed thier nature ....

  12. #57

    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    There is nothing wrong with knowing about good and evil. There is something else about eating the fruit of this "tree" that is missing.

    nothing wrong with knowing good and evil ?


    why do you think God forbid man to eat " the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil" ?

    and why did the serpent insist it wouldn't harm them , but it would make them wise?

    why did God say you must not for when you do you will surely die?

    why, the moment they ate the fruit did they become instantly afraid of God ? Why did they instantly become ashamed of thier nakedness? Why the moment they ate the fruit and they heard God coming near to speak with them , why did they now Hide from him? .....why did they now KNOW that they were naked ?


    because the knowledge of evil , was never meant for mankind.....it's why God told Adam " this is not for you , do not eat of this tree you will certainly die when you do"


    that's not arbitrary brother ...it's a true command meant to keep Adam from sin and death....which only comes when one can be tempted , this requires the knowledge of good and evil within one. God can't be tempted , neither could Adam and Eve .....deception came first then the fruit ......then temptation comes to mankind because they now have the knowledge of evil as well as good . There's a reason the knowledge of good and evil was forbidden ....it wasn't Gods will for man to be conflicted in our nature and be chained to temptation to do evil....

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    There is nothing wrong with knowing about good and evil. There is something else about eating the fruit of this "tree" that is missing.

    nothing wrong with knowing good and evil ?


    why do you think God forbid man to eat " the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil" ?

    and why did the serpent insist it wouldn't harm them , but it would make them wise?

    why did God say you must not for when you do you will surely die?

    why, the moment they ate the fruit did they become instantly afraid of God ? Why did they instantly become ashamed of thier nakedness? Why the moment they ate the fruit and they heard God coming near to speak with them , why did they now Hide from him? .....why did they now KNOW that they were naked ?


    because the knowledge of evil , was never meant for mankind.....it's why God told Adam " this is not for you , do not eat of this tree you will certainly die when you do"


    that's not arbitrary brother ...it's a true command meant to keep Adam from sin and death....which only comes when one can be tempted , this requires the knowledge of good and evil within one. God can't be tempted , neither could Adam and Eve .....deception came first then the fruit ......then temptation comes to mankind because they now have the knowledge of evil as well as good . There's a reason the knowledge of good and evil was forbidden ....it wasn't Gods will for man to be conflicted in our nature and be chained to temptation to do evil....

  13. #58
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    There is nothing wrong with knowing about good and evil. There is something else about eating the fruit of this "tree" that is missing.
    Well, the thing that is missing is *obedience.* To eat of the forbidden fruit is to violate God's word. That began the sin nature, which is the tendency to violate God's word. Whatever God tells us, in our conscience, we tend to resist, unless we rely upon our better judgment. We have to actually resist an inward pull towards the wrong, such as covetousness, selfishness, and lust. But according to God's word, we *can* do this!

    In my view, this tree and this fruit was just like all the other trees in the garden. What set it apart as the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is the simple fact that God forbade Man from eating of that specific tree. For some reason Adam and Eve knew that that was the tree that God forbade them to eat from. It may have looked like any other tree. But God told them not to eat of that one.

    It therefore became "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil," because in eating of it they would know what evil was. It also contained the knowledge of good because just like every other fruit tree it was edible and created by God for food. But to help yourself to fruit created to be good is not good when God specifically forbids it.

    This therefore was a test to see not just that Man would participate in the good in God's garden. More, it was a test to see if Adam and Eve would live by the word of God. If they had done so they probably would've gone right to the tree of life. But they resisted that and chose instead to find out what "disobedience" was like.

    The pull towards independent choice and freedom from God is very, very powerful. To be your own "God" is the driving force behind sin. By this temptation man chooses to go his own way, make his own decisions without God, and reject God's word. This is what most of the world indulges in, rejecting the word of God in their conscience. Fortunately, many of us have responded to the word of God's grace, giving us a 2nd chance.

  14. #59
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    It therefore became "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil," because in eating of it they would know what evil was.
    I think they knew of basic concepts of evil and good before eating of the tree just because they knew of this tree. I think the tree gave more or specific knowledge of good and evil they weren't ready for.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Cool Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    You are right , they weren't created with a sinful nature , they had the nature of God, made after his image and likeness. I'm not seeing anyone say they were deceived by the serpent.....that's what the bible says. Understanding to be deceived means you have been given a false perception and believe it.


    God first addresses the serpent...then Eve...then adam. They ate the fruit because the serpent deceived them. It's why hell was created for the devil who led the world astray .


    God said " the fruit is poison for you you will surely die"

    Satan said " the fruit is not poison you will not die "

    they believed a lie and ate because they then " saw that the fruit was good for food and good for wisdom. What they now " see" is based on what the serpent said to Eve....clear and simple deception. The "knowledge" changed their minds , which changed thier nature ....
    Scripture tell us that Adam was not deceived. 1 Timothy 2:14*"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." Could it be that Adam saw his wife start on a new journey and decided to go along.

    The fruit caused our first couple to do the same thing as Satan and the fallen angels did. It gave them the impression that they could decide for themselves what was good and evil, instead of taking God's word for it. There is nothing shameful about their naked bodies. It is their now warped version of good and evil now working on their minds.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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