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Thread: the forbidden fruit

  1. #16
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    At this very moment, the devil already was, was already a sinner and had already been doing the works of the devil.

    the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep

    For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

    God could have created a spiritual man. But was wanting to deal with the devil and his works and could not do that through a spiritual man. The devil had the power of death and in order to destroy that power and the devil himself , God would work through a man in his image, yet of the flesh, because of, the death, of which the devil had the power thereof.

    God would sell man, including even his only begotten Son under sin, in order to destroy the devil and his works. Adam had to be created of the flesh, carnal, in order that the Son of God could come, in the flesh. Carnal literally means, of the flesh.

    If Adam had not sinned, Adam would have, condemned sin in the flesh and there would have been zero reason for the Christ and the devil would have continued doing his works.

    And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Gen 2:2,3

    What was God's next move?

    For the creation was subjected to futility,( ματαιότητι vanity) not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; Rom 8:20
    Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. Ecc 1:2 1:2 ματαιότης ματαιοτήτων εἶπεν ὁ Ἐκκλησιαστής ματαιότης ματαιοτήτων τὰ πάντα ματαιότης

    Adam did not subject the creation to vanity, God did, for a purpose.
    I don't believe God failed from the beginning by creating Man to destroy the devil, who then failed to do so. I believe God from the beginning created Man to be a brotherhood for His Son Jesus. God always planned to bring Jesus into the world, to dwell among us.

    But the plan changed, due to the Devil's interference. However, nothing surprises God. God had given the Devil the choice to follow His word, or to oppose His word. When the Devil opposed God's word, God already knew in advance what the consequences would be and how He would respond to it.

    God word, in creation, could not be altered, since God's word is infallible. And so, God continued in His plan with Man, to make a brotherhood for His Son Jesus. But in the process He simply had to operate redemption through Jesus and to defeat the Devil through the same. Jesus did this by judging all sin, and by granting redemption to those who repent.

    Now, part of our brotherhood to Jesus is to uphold what Jesus did for us, by establishing the authority of God's word over the Devil, by returning to obedience to God's word, and by proving that we embrace Jesus over carnality. That's how I see it.

  2. #17
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    We are all born of this carnal nature. But some of us were planned by God. Those not planned by God cannot be blamed on God. God gave Man the ability to act on their own and to reproduce. Those born apart from the plan of God are free to choose God, but will not.

    The great thing is that even those who I see as "not planned" can choose for God, and produce for God. They may not like God, nor serve His will out of a pure heart. But I've seen many a nominal Christian actually serve God in many ways--even sincerely. And I trust that even though they are cast into "outer darkness," their punishment in eternity will be much lighter. God created *all men* to live in His image. And they can. But the most beautiful thing is for Man to love God from the heart, out of a pure heart, and to love His word.
    All this deserves a thread of it's own. The Word teaches us that all person's in creation are known (planned for - pre-destined) before creation even came into existence. Some are pre-destined for works of unrighteousness, unto their eternal life in separation from Christ due to God's knowledge that they will never "choose" Him. Others, due to God's knowledge that they will choose to believe, He's pre-destined them to works of righteousness unto eternal life in Christ.

    There is no person unplanned for.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

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    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  3. #18
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    All this deserves a thread of it's own. The Word teaches us that all person's in creation are known (planned for - pre-destined) before creation even came into existence. Some are pre-destined for works of unrighteousness, unto their eternal life in separation from Christ due to God's knowledge that they will never "choose" Him. Others, due to God's knowledge that they will choose to believe, He's pre-destined them to works of righteousness unto eternal life in Christ.

    There is no person unplanned for.
    The Scriptures say that He's numbered His own children, down to the single digit. But I agree, knowing what the consequences of satanic rebellion would be, God also had prepared a backup plan, accommodating Man's operating on their own, apart from His word.
    What is the result of going against God's word, of carrying out human works apart from divine blessing? It is the production of works that will be burned, because they do not represent God's eternal word. People are some of those works that Man produces apart from God's word, when they live in disobedience.

    We do not know how many generations beyond a person of faith a child will be raised up to represent that patriarch or matriarch. I've seen godly children rise out of a grandparent of faith, even when the parent is rebellious and unbelieving. God has it all planned in His own mind. He knows how to judge men over their generations, and how far His word extends in mercy to those who do wrong. Redemption is also part of His word. All of it has to do with free choice, and with the consequences of those choices.

    I don't believe that God just callously anticipates some to be saved, and others to be lost. That's where I'm *not* a Calvinist. God wants *all* to come to His word, to the knowledge of His salvation wish.

    God simply defers to the right He's given Man to go his own way, producing, ultimately, fruit--including children--who are not part of God's word for salvation. God doesn't just "know" who will reject him without playing any role in the process. God does plan a role in this. The role is His word, which always operates consistently, but cannot bless the works of Man who operate without His word.

    The result are lost people--the product of those who have refused to cooperate with God's will. Those born apart from God's word, whether His original word in creation, or His backup word of salvation, have free choice. It's just that there is nothing in them initiated from God's word that identifies with that word.

    There must be something in children that is the product of parents before them, who have obeyed God's word, consciously or unconsciously. If there has been no obedience to God's word, connected with the birth of their children, or even a mixed obedience to God's word, the children over future generations will bear out this difference between children of obedience and children of rebellion.

    There can be no identification of the children with God's word when they are not the product of obedience to God's word. The part of them that is the product of God's word, such as the command to bear children, will show up as obedience in future generations.

    But the part of Man's posterity that is the product of disobedience to God's word will show up in future generations as an aversion to God's word and as rebellion against God's word. By nature they are repulsed by that word, since they have no natural affinity for it, and are hostile to it.

    Yes, this deserves another thread. But it's not a fun subject, and can provoke some pretty nasty reactions. Among brothers I prefer to keep my feelings about it rather brief. I risk something every time I share this.

  4. #19
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    Cool Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't believe that God just callously anticipates some to be saved, and others to be lost. That's where I'm *not* a Calvinist. God wants *all* to come to His word, to the knowledge of His salvation wish.

    God simply defers to the right He's given Man to go his own way, producing, ultimately, fruit--including children--who are not part of God's word for salvation. God doesn't just "know" who will reject him without playing any role in the process. God does plan a role in this. The role is His word, which always operates consistently, but cannot bless the works of Man who operate without His word.

    The result are lost people--the product of those who have refused to cooperate with God's will. Those born apart from God's word, whether His original word in creation, or His backup word of salvation, have free choice. It's just that there is nothing in them initiated from God's word that identifies with that word.
    I believe this is overthinking the whole issue of why the lost are lost. I think if we dig deep enough, God will reveal what is His plan for them.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  5. #20
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    I believe this is overthinking the whole issue of why the lost are lost. I think if we dig deep enough, God will reveal what is His plan for them.
    My heart has been shattered in the revelation that some people have been born with an innate fixation with the carnal world, less God. I have family members that I've discerned for decades are not those with an affinity for God. They are actually what I call "nominal Christians," who do a lot of good, but have no taste for church, or for anything other than an "intellectual" discussion about God. They confess to believe biblical doctrines, including the creeds of the Church, and yet do not live consistently with those beliefs.

    I haven't been able to avoid considering these things since the 70s! My predictions of the outcomes of people have been nothing short of amazing. God gives me some insight into what He Himself sees in people.

    I really do believe that all men have free choice. It's just that God anticipates the material they will be born with, and knows how they will respond, given their proclivities. Those who were born under the cloud of bad choices by parents, grandparents, etc. have a tendency to love the world and the things in the world. They have no affinity for the things of God, except by way of traditional religion in their family. God knows how they will *choose.*

    But those who obey God will, like Abraham of old, have an abundance of faith children. Obedience spawns good fruit. A bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree bears good fruit. This is a law of God.

  6. #21
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. G 2:9

    To the contrary; They were carnal.

    But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.Matt 4:4

    Wonder why they became carnal minded instead of having the mind of God? There were two trees. They could have eaten from the other but being week in the flesh, carnal, they did not obey the law. Thou shall not eat. Rom 8:3

    Consider:

    'The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam for a life-giving spirit, but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual. 1 Cor 15:45,46
    he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;' and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:38,39
    'This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses; at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear; Acts 2:32,33

    Adam was not created as or like the Son of God, Christ, the Anointed.

    The Son of God was not manifested for the purpose of correcting what Adam did, but to destroy the works of the the devil, by redeeming Adam from the result, of what Adam did.

    Adam was not created spiritual. Thou shall not eat of it. That was spiritual > For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. Romans 7:14 The Son of God was manifested (as man) to die and be given life from death, to die no more and redeem man from death by sin. Destroy, annul, break up, the works of the devil, thus destroying him, the devil, who had the power of death. Heb 2:14

    Where am I wrong?
    I'm not certain you are wrong. Though, I would say that the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" did not make them carnal. Why not ? The choice was made to sin , and they became carnal BEFORE they had partaken of the fruit. Granted that after they partook , their eyes were opened and they had become aware of their sin, and went and hid in shame. But the sin itself was the choice to be disobedient to the only command God had given them. The tree and the serpent was the one who tempted and God was the one who forbid the fruit. The choice was theirs.

    That begs the question of WHAT made Adam and Eve any different than we are ? I get that they weren't born under the penalty of sin. I even get that they didn't have a flesh nature. So why did they choose to disobey ? I believe that they were different in a spiritual sense to some degree, but the results are the same. They sinned. A good Calvinist will say that they had the ability not to... but yet cannot explain why they did.

    Not trying to derail the thread but it is relevant to the discussion.

  7. #22
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    James makes it clear that the sin of a person is all of their own. The sin that is full blown , leads to death. So how can someone who does not have a sin nature (as Adam and Eve ) conjure up sin in their heart. Yes, they were tempted by the serpent, but their sin belonged to them and them alone.

    I truly believe that like I was saying earlier in the thread, that it really does come down to choice. Simple obedience , or not.

  8. #23
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I don't want to lead into a change of your topic but this is where I'll make a comment. Based on this alone, you can't be a Calvinist. Like you, I value "some" of the doctrine and the parts that are not "aligned" with scripture, is all interpretation, thus I reject those portions of the doctrine. Meaning, I am 100% NOT a Calvinist because I may not agree with 2% of the doctrine (more like about 65% I don't agree with). To be a Calvinist, you have to be 100% in agreement with all tenants. Based on your words, I agree, God KNOWS who will choose Him and for them, He's predestined righteous works. When these righteous works will happen, well... that druggy on the street, we see a druggy but God knows that in 10 years, after losing ALL, turns to God and chooses to believe. God then begins to produce those righteous works through the person (first being, redemption/rebirth of his spirit unto Christ). Calvinists don't believe what you wrote, as God knows because He CHOSE for them and rebirths their spirit before they make a choice to believe and they, can't not believe. Anyway...

    It wasn't time because after "dying" by eating that fruit, if they then ate of the other tree, PERMANENT separation, no chance of redemption... both trees are for AFTER glorification.
    Don't want to derail it either , but I have a hard time understanding how people can call themselves a 3 or 4 point Calvinist. That is an oxymoron in my opinion. I've always said that a good Calvinist is a Hyper- Calvinist, in other words they follow the doctrine to it's end.

  9. #24
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    I believe this is overthinking the whole issue of why the lost are lost. I think if we dig deep enough, God will reveal what is His plan for them.
    One does not have to dig deep to refute your statement because "if" your statement had truth, then what is the truth of scripture teaching that God "desires" that ALL come to repentance? Christ died FOR all of mankind so that God's desire that ALL be saved, is possible. Will all of mankind choose to take the gift of grace and be saved, no. Thus why scripture teaches OF God's desire toward all of mankind.

    If Calvinism is "all" truth, then God cannot "desire" all come to repentance because under Calvinism, ALL WILL come to repentance... defying context of scripture.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  10. #25
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Don't want to derail it either , but I have a hard time understanding how people can call themselves a 3 or 4 point Calvinist. That is an oxymoron in my opinion. I've always said that a good Calvinist is a Hyper- Calvinist, in other words they follow the doctrine to it's end.
    I always say, "honest Calvinist." Any less than 5 point Calvinist, is a dishonest Calvinist and honestly, isn't a Calvinist at all.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  11. #26
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I'm not certain you are wrong. Though, I would say that the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" did not make them carnal. Why not ? The choice was made to sin , and they became carnal BEFORE they had partaken of the fruit. Granted that after they partook , their eyes were opened and they had become aware of their sin, and went and hid in shame. But the sin itself was the choice to be disobedient to the only command God had given them. The tree and the serpent was the one who tempted and God was the one who forbid the fruit. The choice was theirs.

    That begs the question of WHAT made Adam and Eve any different than we are ? I get that they weren't born under the penalty of sin. I even get that they didn't have a flesh nature. So why did they choose to disobey ? I believe that they were different in a spiritual sense to some degree, but the results are the same. They sinned. A good Calvinist will say that they had the ability not to... but yet cannot explain why they did.

    Not trying to derail the thread but it is relevant to the discussion.
    As I said, I'm a Partial Calvinist, and completely agree that Angels and Men have free choice. Satan fell from a position of perfection, allowing himself to consider alternatives to God's word. Adam and Eve did the same thing. Christians today can disobey God's word. We have free choice, pure and simple.

    That being said, there is something about our ability to produce something more mature, so that we get established in our right way or in our wrong way. Then it can be more properly anticipated what people will do. There is no question, however, that as bad as people may become, grace is able to reach them if they are willing.

  12. #27
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    As I said, I'm a Partial Calvinist, and completely agree that Angels and Men have free choice. Satan fell from a position of perfection, allowing himself to consider alternatives to God's word. Adam and Eve did the same thing. Christians today can disobey God's word. We have free choice, pure and simple.

    That being said, there is something about our ability to produce something more mature, so that we get established in our right way or in our wrong way. Then it can be more properly anticipated what people will do. There is no question, however, that as bad as people may become, grace is able to reach them if they are willing.
    Then any true Calvinist would reject you claiming to be such. That is the basic tenant of Calvinism. Sovereign Predestined Election. NO CHOICE. If Adam and Eve had a choice, we do as well. And for the record Armenians ( which I don't claim to be ) also believe in predestination according to foreknowledge according to God's will. To not identify as Calvinist does not mean someone denies predestination.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    As I said, I'm a Partial Calvinist, and completely agree that Angels and Men have free choice. Satan fell from a position of perfection, allowing himself to consider alternatives to God's word. Adam and Eve did the same thing. Christians today can disobey God's word. We have free choice, pure and simple.

    That being said, there is something about our ability to produce something more mature, so that we get established in our right way or in our wrong way. Then it can be more properly anticipated what people will do. There is no question, however, that as bad as people may become, grace is able to reach them if they are willing.
    Then any true Calvinist would reject you claiming to be such. That is the basic tenant of Calvinism. Sovereign Predestined Election. NO CHOICE. If Adam and Eve had a choice, we do as well. And for the record Armenians ( which I don't claim to be ) also believe in predestination according to foreknowledge according to God's will. To not identify as Calvinist does not mean someone denies predestination.

  13. #28
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    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Then any true Calvinist would reject you claiming to be such. That is the basic tenant of Calvinism. Sovereign Predestined Election. NO CHOICE. If Adam and Eve had a choice, we do as well. And for the record Armenians ( which I don't claim to be ) also believe in predestination according to foreknowledge according to God's will. To not identify as Calvinist does not mean someone denies predestination.
    Too true! The reason I identify as Calvinist is because in reading the Apostle Paul, St. Augustine, Luther, or Calvin, I find myself agreeing with many things they say. But I disagree with Luther because he virtually assigns all goodness to Christ, less our free choice. This makes our choice for Christ not just predetermined, but absent our choice at all.

    In reality, I think that Luther advocates for free choice in matters like keeping the Law, but sees our salvation as a matter of election. This sounds very contradictory, and is, in my opinion. That's why I'm not a "card-carrying" Lutheran, or Calvinist for that matter. Contrary to Luther I do believe all men can choose to do good, and can cooperate with God's word, and so produce genuine virtue.

    However, eternal life is not simply the production of virtue, but rather, an affirmation of God's word *in an eternal way.* It is, in my view, a matter of being born with an affinity for God's word, as a product of our parents before us, and is therefore a matter of *election.*

    I adhere to the sense of election because I believe God determined how many children He would have. In the process of history, I believe that people are born with a predisposition to not serve God because they are not the product of God's choice. And this is because they are reproduced along a process in which their forbears chose against God's word in critical matters regarding their offspring. In choosing to be a partially bad tree they choose to produce bad fruit.

    This sounds very fatalistic, and is. I believe it grieves God's heart. Do people thus born with a predisposition against the word of God lose free choice? No, it's just that I believe God knows they will *not* choose for eternal fellowship with Him because they lack an affinity for God's word. They are not the product of God's word, and so are repulsed by it. They are drawn to the ways of Man because they have been produced by it.

    As my Dad once had written on the wall, "If you can keep a level head in all this confusion, you just don't understand the situation."

    Let me just suggest this. God produced Adam in His own image, and thus predestined him to be elected one of God's children. But Adam chose to be a mixed tree, and so produced children after his own image, both bad and good--Cain and Abel.

    Genesis 5.3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.

  14. #29

    Re: the forbidden fruit

    that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; From Heb 2:14
    that He might destroy the works of the devil. From 1 John 3:8

    for the devil sinneth from the beginning

    Assuming the sin of the devil took place before the creation of man and God was going to deal with that sin, how was God going to deal with the sin of the devil and his works?

    How was God going to destroy the devil and his power of death?

    Or do you all not think the devil was the adversary of God before the creation of man?

    Before the foundation of the world would the means of God destroying the devil and his power and his works come about by, redemption? 1 Peter 1:18-20

    Before the foundation of the world, redemption, from what? Redeem ? does it mean to buy back?

    Before the foundation of the world was there a Son of God born of woman, a manifested Son of God to destroy the works of the devil?

    Why was man created in the image of God yet created of flesh with his, life being, soul, in the blood?

    Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. KJV
    for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul. Darby

    For the life, nephesh, soul of the flesh.

    Before the foundation of the world, the plan, was for things to take place according to, the plan.

    God, is Christ, was not correcting an error by Adam.

    Once again: For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope Rom 8:20 ASV

    In hope of the obedience of One, Christ, not Adam.
    Faith is. the substance of hoped for, the evidence of the unseen, Christ, Obedience of Faith.

  15. #30

    Re: the forbidden fruit

    Should have been, God, in Christ,

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