Page 3 of 17 FirstFirst 1234567891011121314 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 252

Thread: The Timing of Events

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    14,395
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    I consider Rev 14:1-5 to be a scene in heaven. Don't you?
    No.

    Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    mount Sion is 2 miles from Jerusalem. Heaven is much further away and not located in the country of Israel.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    14,395
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    Why would you make a distinction between the 2 prophets and the 2 witnesses?
    Because scripture does.

    Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


    "the two olive trees" AND "the two candlesticks"


    As you see, there are two of one thing and two of another.



    ------------------one witness------------second witness------------
    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

    We have 4 altogether that compose the "two witness".

    So what are olive trees?


    Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?


    "What are these two olive trees"


    Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
    Zechariah 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
    Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


    "These are the two anointed ones"


    And olive trees represent anointed people. So, the two olive trees that form ONE WITNESS are two individuals that have been anointed.


    Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


    Two anointed ones. To be anointed simply means to be blessed with the gifts of the Holy spirit, especially with knowledge which includes knowledge of the future known as prophecy. "ones" means individuals, there are two individuals being spoken of.

    ones:

    1121

    01121 ben {bane}

    from 01129; TWOT - 254; n m

    AV - son 2978, children 1568, old 135, first 51, man 20, young 18,
    young + 01241 17, child 10, stranger 10, people 5, misc 92; 4906

    1) son, grandson, child, member of a group
    1a) son, male child
    1b) grandson
    1c) children (pl. - male and female)
    1d) youth, young men (pl.)
    1e) young (of animals)
    1f) sons (as characterisation, ie sons of injustice [for un-
    righteous men] or sons of God [for angels]
    1g) people (of a nation) (pl.)
    1h) of lifeless things, ie sparks, stars, arrows (fig.)
    1i) a member of a guild, order, class

    ----------------one witness--------------second witness------------
    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


    What are the two candlesticks?

    Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


    "and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches"


    Candlesticks represent churches which are groups of Christians.







    Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


    so to add what we know:


    Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Revelation 11:4 These are the two [anointed ones], AND the two [churches] standing before the God of the earth.

    According to scripture, the two witnesses are two churches (candlesticks) AND two persons (olives trees). One witness is the two churches, the other witness is the two persons. Many believe it is Elijah and Enoch but who they are or aren't is another discussion.




    When scripture refers to the two "olive trees" and we learn that olive trees represent "anointed ones" then we know these two olive trees are in fact two "anointed ones" which is simply two anointed people or persons...but there's more:


    Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


    Here only the two olive trees are called the two prophets. Prophets are individuals, in fact they are males. Two male prophets which are anointed by God to give prophetic messages.


    Since its also scriptural fact that candlesticks are churches we then have this:


    Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees [the two anointed prophets], and the two candlesticks [two churches] standing before the God of the earth.


    Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


    If you wish to speak of the two prophets which are killed by the antichrist/beast and are raised back to life by God, it is incorrect to refer to them as the "two witnesses" since the scriptures do not. They are referred to as one of the two witnesses, the two olive trees which are two anointed individuals ie: the two prophets.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Thames, New Zealand
    Posts
    2,344
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    I only place it there because the signs that occur immediately after the great tribulation in Matt 24:29 are the same signs that occur after the earthquake of Rev 6:12. It seems to me to be a good idea to put the same signs in the same order.

    If you compare all of the stories, the great tribulation is always 3.5 years and it always comes before the wrath of God, the last part of which is his physical presence on earth. Parts of the 7th bowl of God's wrath are shown 6 times. How could you put those parts of the 7th bowl into a single sequence and make any sense out of the Revelation?
    But the 'signs' ARE different!
    At the Sixth Seal: the moon shins bright red, at the Return: the moon does not give any light.

    In over 100 OT and NT prophesies, we are told of the yet to happen Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, a separate event from the punishments described in the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
    It will be what will commence all the rest of the prophesied end times events, setting the scene for the establishment of a One World Govt, etc.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    6,166

    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    I agree with everything to this point.



    Are you saying that Israelites can not accept Jesus and become part of his church? What are Messianic Jews?
    Romans 11:32 says that everybody is concluded by God to unbelief, both Jews and Gentiles, and that without God's mercy, nobody would be saved.
    Even if this is a physical seal on the forehead, it is only an outward sign of belief in Jesus. Outward signs such as seals or circumcision are not as important as what they symbolize.
    In Rev 9:4, I think it means that Christians are not yet in range to be targeted. They will be by the next trumpet.




    What you see as differences, I see as a progression. In Rev 7, the 144,000 are newborn babes in Christ. In Rev 11, the 2 witnesses/144,000 are given power as were the apostles. In Rev 11 and 14, the 2 witnesses/144,000 are raised from the dead and ascended into heaven. In both Rev 11 and 14, these are the only people since Jesus who have been given this privilege. These are the first part of the total harvest. These are the first to be resurrected, then raptured into heaven. The full harvest to be resurrected, then raptured into heaven comes later in Rev 14.


    The 2 witnesses and the 144,000 both testify for God because they are the same.



    Those who have the seal of God are Christians. Christians are overcome in war by the Beast. The great numbers of Christians who are killed by the Beast during the Great Tribulation are seen in Rev 7.
    Sorry for the delay in answering. I must have been taken up with my thread on the Book of Life. You have sated your case and I'm happy to let it stand for the reader to judge. But I would like to answer that which I made red.

    I did not mean, at all that an Israelite cannot believe and become part of the Church. I meant that those who stay Israelites are "concluded by God in blindness and UNBELIEF till the end of the age when the "fullness of the Gentiles is come in". You see, an Israelite, once he believes, is NO LONGER an Israelite. 2 Corinthians 5:17 says;

    "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

    And both Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11 say that there are NO Jews OR Greeks in the New Man - the Church.

    Although the Israelite may still have an Israeli Passport and his brethren according to the flesh be Israelites, his standing before God is that he is a New Creature and the old has passed away. It is a man's standing before God, and not men that decides his future, and which then is the ultimately important standing. So when I say Israelites will have no faith till the end of the age, I mean Israelites as opposed to the New Man. Of course many Israelites will embrace our Lord and be born again. But at that moment they cease to be Israelites in God's eyes.

    I am aware of the term Messianic Jews, and am aware that it is bandied about much in Christian circles. But it NEVER appears in scripture. An Israelite is an Israelite unless he has faith in Jesus. Then he ceases to be an Israelite and is God's New Creature where to OLD IS GONE.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    6,166

    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    That is why we post. There were a lot of smaller threads at the time of this posting that I thought a general overview could clear up.
    I do that too. I prefer a comprehensive posting with argument, possible counter argument, and counter-counter argument. But we both will not be loved for that. The bulk of posters like one-liners, and if you ask them for the full argument they will not do it. Pity.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    6,166

    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    But faith or belief of any Israelite at that time [end-times] will be based on acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord, otherwise, how does it differ from their status today as believers, but not in Christ? So yes, I concur that they will become Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    How about he never liked the Jews? And the so-called covenant is all a ploy to win their trust while scheming to destroy them? Secondly, don't forget that he wages a full war against Jerusalem which capitulates under his assault. His troops' slaughter, pillage and rape Israeli women. There is nothing in the Beast's character that suggests that obeisance from Israel is enough to appease him. The man is simply BAD, there's nothing decent about him.
    To your first objection I would like to point out that a seal is not faith. The recovery of Israel is outlined in Deuteronomy 30:1-5. In these verses Moses accepts that all the curses of Chapter 28 come upon Israel (which they did). The he lays forth (under inspiration) that God would recover Israel if the turn back, with heart and soul, to what he (Moses) was expounding "THAT DAY". And "that day" Moses was expounding the Law. Now, nobody who ever studied the Bible would says that ALL Israel would turn back to the Law with heart and soul. Even if we don't count the eating of pork, the travels on a Sabbath and the fact that less than half of living Israelis took the opportunity to go back to their Land since 1948, scripture predicts Lawlessness to the end of the age. But God is willing to take a REMNANT - as we in Abraham's prayer for Sodom. This REMNANT is confirmed throughout the Old Testament and predicted in the New (Rom.9:27, 11:5). What we see in Revelation 7:1-8 is this REMNANT who turn back with heart and soul to the Law. Because there is no rapture for Israel, these 144,000 (literal or symbolic) are "Sealed" so that the mechanisms of the Great Tribulation do not hurt them (see also Rev.9:4). But, at NO TIME does scripture EVER indicate, imply and/or state that they embrace Jesus.

    To your second objection I would like to point out that I was not speaking of the closing months of the Beast's rule, where he gathers an army against Jerusalem. I was speaking of his initial quest to become world leader and set up shop in Jerusalem. For this he would need Israel's cooperation. No doubt Nero has a virulent hate for Jews, but he is not famous for any major persecution of them. It was against the Christians that Nero poured out his hate. And so it will be in the seven years of Daniel. First Nero must gain respect and political acceptance from the Gentiles. Then, to be able to set up shop in Jerusalem and the Temple, he must gain the respect and favor of the Jews. It is only in his last three and one half years that he brutally puts down any opposition. I judge that because of the presence of the 144,000 who resist the Beast being in the Temple, plus the witness of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11, and finally, the events surrounding the death and resurrection of the these Two Witnesses where "men gave glory to God" and not the Beast, he (the Beast) gathers the great army. But, ultimately, as in all the affairs of men, it is God Who provokes this army. He likes neat endings. He causes a series of events that draw all His opponents to one place - Jezreel at Megiddo. It is, after all, "... Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God" (Rev.19:17). It is His battle, and He dictates even who will be there and where it will take place.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    8,250
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    To your first objection I would like to point out that a seal is not faith. The recovery of Israel is outlined in Deuteronomy 30:1-5. In these verses Moses accepts that all the curses of Chapter 28 come upon Israel (which they did). The he lays forth (under inspiration) that God would recover Israel if the turn back, with heart and soul, to what he (Moses) was expounding "THAT DAY". And "that day" Moses was expounding the Law. Now, nobody who ever studied the Bible would says that ALL Israel would turn back to the Law with heart and soul. Even if we don't count the eating of pork, the travels on a Sabbath and the fact that less than half of living Israelis took the opportunity to go back to their Land since 1948, scripture predicts Lawlessness to the end of the age. But God is willing to take a REMNANT - as we in Abraham's prayer for Sodom. This REMNANT is confirmed throughout the Old Testament and predicted in the New (Rom.9:27, 11:5). What we see in Revelation 7:1-8 is this REMNANT who turn back with heart and soul to the Law. Because there is no rapture for Israel, these 144,000 (literal or symbolic) are "Sealed" so that the mechanisms of the Great Tribulation do not hurt them (see also Rev.9:4). But, at NO TIME does scripture EVER indicate, imply and/or state that they embrace Jesus.
    I disagree with your overall view of Israel's redemption. The Law is now abrogated and redemption is now base on faith in Jesus Christ alone, not the Law. Neither Paul nor any other Apostle propagated hope that Israel would be saved by the law. If their redemption lies in the law, why then was Jesus sent to the "lost house of Israel?" (Matt 15:24) since his Gospel was not based on the law? Search the scriptures and you'll find that none of the Apostles preached that Israel would be saved by the law.

    I don't know why you said there's no rapture for Israel? What about the Messianic Jews alive at the time of the rapture, are you saying they will be left behind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    To your second objection I would like to point out that I was not speaking of the closing months of the Beast's rule, where he gathers an army against Jerusalem. I was speaking of his initial quest to become world leader and set up shop in Jerusalem. For this he would need Israel's cooperation. No doubt Nero has a virulent hate for Jews, but he is not famous for any major persecution of them. It was against the Christians that Nero poured out his hate. And so it will be in the seven years of Daniel. First Nero must gain respect and political acceptance from the Gentiles. Then, to be able to set up shop in Jerusalem and the Temple, he must gain the respect and favor of the Jews. It is only in his last three and one half years that he brutally puts down any opposition. I judge that because of the presence of the 144,000 who resist the Beast being in the Temple, plus the witness of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11, and finally, the events surrounding the death and resurrection of the these Two Witnesses where "men gave glory to God" and not the Beast, he (the Beast) gathers the great army. But, ultimately, as in all the affairs of men, it is God Who provokes this army. He likes neat endings. He causes a series of events that draw all His opponents to one place - Jezreel at Megiddo. It is, after all, "... Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God" (Rev.19:17). It is His battle, and He dictates even who will be there and where it will take place.
    Given your clarify, I have no more objection.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    14,395
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post

    I don't know why you said there's no rapture for Israel? What about the Messianic Jews alive at the time of the rapture, are you saying they will be left behind?
    All religious Jews are Messianic. Those in Judaism won't be in the rapture, only Christian Jews would be raptured. I know you meant that but "Messianic Jews" isn't the right term to speak of only those accepting Jesus as Messiah.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    218

    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Revelation 7 does not say anyone is killed.
    This is added to make a false theory work, the very pretentious notion that people can go to live in heaven.

    The vast multitude seen by John in verse 9, are living people, on earth; in Jerusalem. They are every faithful Christian, who will migrate to the holy Land, soon after the Sixth Seal devastation has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East area. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26
    Jesus will be revealed to them, 2 Thess 1:6-10, Revelation 14:1 and He will select the 144,000 out from among them.

    This is a Biblically correct and logical scenario. It doesn't rely on fantasies or adds anything to scripture.
    2 Cor 5:1-8 " For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
    3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
    4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
    5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
    6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
    7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
    8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

    This is where I get the very pretentious notion that people can go to live in heaven. How do you interpret these verses?

    In your scenario, both God the Father and God the Son were already revealed during the 6th seal. Rev 6:16 "... Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb."

    Also in your scenario, the 144,000 are sealed before the great migration to Jerusalem, not afterward. Where does it say that the 144,000 are selected from this group?

    It looks to me like the 144,000 are selected before the great multitude arrives.

    Matt 24:21-22 says the period of great tribulation is a time in which mankind would have been completely wiped out if God did not intervene. To me, it's easier to think that those who come out of the world at this time are dead, rather than they have come out of this time and gone to Jerusalem. And if the survivors of the great tribulation had come out of the world and gone to Jerusalem, I think it would have been possible to count them. 200 million are counted at the Euphrates River. Can Jerusalem hold more than 200 million people? I don't know.

    How many times does the entire Middle East area get cleansed? People against Jesus do not gather at Armageddon until the next to last plague, the 6th bowl of wrath is poured out. Where do all of these people come from if the entire Middle East area has already been cleansed? Would they even be able to come upon clean land?

    In Rev 14, the 144,000 are selected first, and they are selected before Jesus comes in verse 14, but the rapture does not occur until verse 16, and Armageddon happens in verses 18-20. If I follow your scenario, the Middle East gets wiped out, then God gathers Christians to Jerusalem, evil doers follow the Christians to Jerusalem, and then God wipes out the evil doers at Armageddon?

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Thames, New Zealand
    Posts
    2,344
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    2 Cor 5:1-8 " For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
    3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
    4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
    5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
    6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
    7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
    8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

    This is where I get the very pretentious notion that people can go to live in heaven. How do you interpret these verses?

    In your scenario, both God the Father and God the Son were already revealed during the 6th seal. Rev 6:16 "... Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb."

    Also in your scenario, the 144,000 are sealed before the great migration to Jerusalem, not afterward. Where does it say that the 144,000 are selected from this group?

    It looks to me like the 144,000 are selected before the great multitude arrives.

    Matt 24:21-22 says the period of great tribulation is a time in which mankind would have been completely wiped out if God did not intervene. To me, it's easier to think that those who come out of the world at this time are dead, rather than they have come out of this time and gone to Jerusalem. And if the survivors of the great tribulation had come out of the world and gone to Jerusalem, I think it would have been possible to count them. 200 million are counted at the Euphrates River. Can Jerusalem hold more than 200 million people? I don't know.

    How many times does the entire Middle East area get cleansed? People against Jesus do not gather at Armageddon until the next to last plague, the 6th bowl of wrath is poured out. Where do all of these people come from if the entire Middle East area has already been cleansed? Would they even be able to come upon clean land?

    In Rev 14, the 144,000 are selected first, and they are selected before Jesus comes in verse 14, but the rapture does not occur until verse 16, and Armageddon happens in verses 18-20. If I follow your scenario, the Middle East gets wiped out, then God gathers Christians to Jerusalem, evil doers follow the Christians to Jerusalem, and then God wipes out the evil doers at Armageddon?
    I have read again your scriptures. And there are others that allude to heaven as a place we aspire to. However none of them actually say we will go to live in heaven. They simply point to the amazing time that God will come to dwell with mankind, after the Millennium, Revelation 21:1-7

    There is a coherent sequence to the end time events, speculation and guesswork isn't needed.
    Read Revelation 12:6-17, it describes living people, Christians; some who will be kept in a place of safety and some who must stay in the holy Land, while the world is under the control of Satan. Revelation 13:5-8

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,661

    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    144,000 Israelites become Christians before new Roman Empire forms Rev 7:1-3 Compare to Dan 7:1-3

    Day 1:
    Peace treaty Dan 9:27
    Animal sacrifice starts on temple mount Dan 9:27
    Roman leader Dan 7:24
    The Prophecy of the 70 Weeks in Dan 9 was exhausted in the time of Christ's earthly ministry. It therefore has *nothing* to do with the endtimes. There goes the 7 years, or 70th Week of Daniel, popularized in contemporary eschatology. And there goes all emphasis on a restored temple of animal sacrifices.

    NT Theology absolutely prohibits a restoration of animal worship under the Law. If the Jews did this, it would never be recognized by God. And if Antichrist situated himself there, it would be contrary to the Law, and Jews would not accept it.

    If Antichrist started a new religion, and established his own temple, it would not be a temple of Law and animal sacrifices. Jews would not accept it, and it would not be a reasonable deception of the Jewish People. The Jews would accept a Messiah, true or false, but they would not accept an abridgment of the Law of Moses, rendering illegal anything that corrupts the Law, as Antichrist would.

    No, Antichrist does not observe the Jewish religion, nor the Christian religion--not even the religion of Islam. He will be his own religion, claiming to have the authority of God to establish his own worship. The prototype was Antiochus 4, in ancient times, who Hellenized Judaism to destroy it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths
    Day 1,260:
    Jewish temple has been built Rev 11:1
    Animal sacrifice ceases and a
    bomination of desolation is set up
    Dan 9:27
    Period of Great Tribulation begins Matt 24:15-28
    Assyrian leader has governing authority Rev 13:5, Dan 11:40-45; first trying to kill all Jews, then trying to kill all Christians Rev 12:13-17
    2 witnesses begin ministering with power, bringing plagues on those who war against Jews and Christians Rev 11:3-10

    Day 2,520:
    Great tribulation is replaced by time of God's wrath (undetermined length of time to pour out the 7 bowls)
    Earthquake Rev 6:12 Same signs follow this earthquake as follow the great tribulation Matt 24:29
    Same earthquake of Rev 6:12 is in Rev 11:13
    2 witnesses rise into heaven Rev 11:11-12 - God's intervention - raising them from the dead - which keeps world from destroying itself Matt 24:22
    2 witnesses are the 144,000, first fruits of God's harvest Rev 14:4 Only the 2 witnesses have been raised from the dead and have gone to heaven (first fruits)
    7th seal, silence in heaven during rise to heaven of 144,000, elders could not learn the new song of this new event. Rev 14:3
    Heaven is opened for the 144,000, but reclosed until the 7 bowls of wrath are poured out Rev 11:19, Rev 15:5-8
    Assyrian leader loses governing authority to God Rev 11:15-18

    Jesus comes down from heaven after the 7th vial has been poured out. He is still coming as a thief when 6 vials have been poured out. Rev 16:15
    As Jesus leaves heaven, he gathers the rest of his harvest Rev 14:14-16. He already gathered the first fruits. Rev 14:1-5

    I know some of you will disagree with this order and timing of events.
    Please limit your disagreement to small parts and I will respond.
    I struggle answering to posts like I just made.

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    218

    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Because scripture does.

    Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


    "the two olive trees" AND "the two candlesticks"


    As you see, there are two of one thing and two of another.



    ------------------one witness------------second witness------------
    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

    We have 4 altogether that compose the "two witness".

    So what are olive trees?


    Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?


    "What are these two olive trees"


    Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
    Zechariah 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
    Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


    "These are the two anointed ones"


    And olive trees represent anointed people. So, the two olive trees that form ONE WITNESS are two individuals that have been anointed.


    Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


    Two anointed ones. To be anointed simply means to be blessed with the gifts of the Holy spirit, especially with knowledge which includes knowledge of the future known as prophecy. "ones" means individuals, there are two individuals being spoken of.

    ones:

    1121

    01121 ben {bane}

    from 01129; TWOT - 254; n m

    AV - son 2978, children 1568, old 135, first 51, man 20, young 18,
    young + 01241 17, child 10, stranger 10, people 5, misc 92; 4906

    1) son, grandson, child, member of a group
    1a) son, male child
    1b) grandson
    1c) children (pl. - male and female)
    1d) youth, young men (pl.)
    1e) young (of animals)
    1f) sons (as characterisation, ie sons of injustice [for un-
    righteous men] or sons of God [for angels]
    1g) people (of a nation) (pl.)
    1h) of lifeless things, ie sparks, stars, arrows (fig.)
    1i) a member of a guild, order, class

    ----------------one witness--------------second witness------------
    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


    What are the two candlesticks?

    Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


    "and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches"


    Candlesticks represent churches which are groups of Christians.







    Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


    so to add what we know:


    Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Revelation 11:4 These are the two [anointed ones], AND the two [churches] standing before the God of the earth.

    According to scripture, the two witnesses are two churches (candlesticks) AND two persons (olives trees). One witness is the two churches, the other witness is the two persons. Many believe it is Elijah and Enoch but who they are or aren't is another discussion.




    When scripture refers to the two "olive trees" and we learn that olive trees represent "anointed ones" then we know these two olive trees are in fact two "anointed ones" which is simply two anointed people or persons...but there's more:


    Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


    Here only the two olive trees are called the two prophets. Prophets are individuals, in fact they are males. Two male prophets which are anointed by God to give prophetic messages.


    Since its also scriptural fact that candlesticks are churches we then have this:


    Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees [the two anointed prophets], and the two candlesticks [two churches] standing before the God of the earth.


    Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


    If you wish to speak of the two prophets which are killed by the antichrist/beast and are raised back to life by God, it is incorrect to refer to them as the "two witnesses" since the scriptures do not. They are referred to as one of the two witnesses, the two olive trees which are two anointed individuals ie: the two prophets.
    Rev 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

    In this example, there are 7 horns and 7 eyes which are the 7 Spirits of God. 7 horns = 7 Spirits of God, 7 eyes = 7 Spirits of God. Do you separate these as well? Is one group not the 7 Spirits of God?

    Rev 11:3 "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."
    The 2 witnesses are also called prophets because they prophecy. The description of the 2 olive trees and the 2 lampstands in verses 5-9 is the same because there is no distinction between the olive trees and the lampstands; just as there is no difference between the 7 horns and the 7 eyes of God. Can you better support your claim about Rev 11:10? It seems to be at odds with Rev 11:3 that both witnesses prophesy.

    The following is an example of 1 olive tree being the 2 houses of Israel and Judah and not an anointed prophet. Jer 11:15-16 "The Lord called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
    17 For the Lord of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal."

    In Zechariah, I believe the 2 witnesses were specifically Joshua and Zerubbabel. These 2 sought to glorify God, so God honored them and gave them the power to do so.
    In Revelation, I believe the 2 witnesses are 2 churches who will seek to glorify God, and God will give them the power to do so.

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    218

    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No.

    Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    mount Sion is 2 miles from Jerusalem. Heaven is much further away and not located in the country of Israel.
    How do you explain that the Son of Man does not come on a cloud until Rev 14:14, and yet he is already on earth in Rev 1-5?

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    218

    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    But the 'signs' ARE different!
    At the Sixth Seal: the moon shins bright red, at the Return: the moon does not give any light.
    Are there different great commissions? These are all different:
    Matt 28:118-20 " And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
    19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

    Mark 16:15-20 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
    16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
    18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
    19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
    20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

    Minor differences can be expected in the description of the same events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    In over 100 OT and NT prophesies, we are told of the yet to happen Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, a separate event from the punishments described in the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
    It will be what will commence all the rest of the prophesied end times events, setting the scene for the establishment of a One World Govt, etc.
    The day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath is described 6 times in the book of Revelation. God always brings it. In 4 sections the day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath comes chronologically after the period of great tribulation. In the other 2, the story begins after the period of Great Tribulation. For me, these stories have too many similarities to ignore.

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    14,395
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    How do you explain that the Son of Man does not come on a cloud until Rev 14:14, and yet he is already on earth in Rev 1-5?
    Rev isn't written in chronological order.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 8 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 8 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 6
    Last Post: Aug 19th 2010, 11:45 PM
  2. Timing...Hm..
    By lovex in forum Growing in Christ
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: Mar 1st 2010, 12:14 AM
  3. God's Timing
    By VerticalReality in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: Feb 4th 2010, 09:28 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •