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Thread: The Timing of Events

  1. #46
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    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Sorry for the delay in answering. I must have been taken up with my thread on the Book of Life. You have sated your case and I'm happy to let it stand for the reader to judge. But I would like to answer that which I made red.

    I did not mean, at all that an Israelite cannot believe and become part of the Church. I meant that those who stay Israelites are "concluded by God in blindness and UNBELIEF till the end of the age when the "fullness of the Gentiles is come in". You see, an Israelite, once he believes, is NO LONGER an Israelite. 2 Corinthians 5:17 says;

    "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

    And both Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11 say that there are NO Jews OR Greeks in the New Man - the Church.

    Although the Israelite may still have an Israeli Passport and his brethren according to the flesh be Israelites, his standing before God is that he is a New Creature and the old has passed away. It is a man's standing before God, and not men that decides his future, and which then is the ultimately important standing. So when I say Israelites will have no faith till the end of the age, I mean Israelites as opposed to the New Man. Of course many Israelites will embrace our Lord and be born again. But at that moment they cease to be Israelites in God's eyes.

    I am aware of the term Messianic Jews, and am aware that it is bandied about much in Christian circles. But it NEVER appears in scripture. An Israelite is an Israelite unless he has faith in Jesus. Then he ceases to be an Israelite and is God's New Creature where to OLD IS GONE.
    God's people are God's people. We are part of the same olive tree in Romans 12:24. Should we call ourselves an olive tree instead of new creatures or Christians or all "Israel" in Romans 12:26? I don't think it matters, but I am glad you know they are all God's people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Sorry for the delay in answering. I must have been taken up with my thread on the Book of Life. You have sated your case and I'm happy to let it stand for the reader to judge. But I would like to answer that which I made red.

    I did not mean, at all that an Israelite cannot believe and become part of the Church. I meant that those who stay Israelites are "concluded by God in blindness and UNBELIEF till the end of the age when the "fullness of the Gentiles is come in". You see, an Israelite, once he believes, is NO LONGER an Israelite. 2 Corinthians 5:17 says;

    "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

    And both Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11 say that there are NO Jews OR Greeks in the New Man - the Church.

    Although the Israelite may still have an Israeli Passport and his brethren according to the flesh be Israelites, his standing before God is that he is a New Creature and the old has passed away. It is a man's standing before God, and not men that decides his future, and which then is the ultimately important standing. So when I say Israelites will have no faith till the end of the age, I mean Israelites as opposed to the New Man. Of course many Israelites will embrace our Lord and be born again. But at that moment they cease to be Israelites in God's eyes.

    I am aware of the term Messianic Jews, and am aware that it is bandied about much in Christian circles. But it NEVER appears in scripture. An Israelite is an Israelite unless he has faith in Jesus. Then he ceases to be an Israelite and is God's New Creature where to OLD IS GONE.
    God's people are God's people. We are part of the same olive tree in Romans 12:24. Should we call ourselves an olive tree instead of new creatures or Christians or all "Israel" in Romans 12:26? I don't think it matters, but I am glad you know they are all God's people.

  2. #47
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    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I disagree with your overall view of Israel's redemption. The Law is now abrogated and redemption is now base on faith in Jesus Christ alone, not the Law. Neither Paul nor any other Apostle propagated hope that Israel would be saved by the law. If their redemption lies in the law, why then was Jesus sent to the "lost house of Israel?" (Matt 15:24) since his Gospel was not based on the law? Search the scriptures and you'll find that none of the Apostles preached that Israel would be saved by the law.

    I don't know why you said there's no rapture for Israel? What about the Messianic Jews alive at the time of the rapture, are you saying they will be left behind?



    Given your clarify, I have no more objection.
    The word "redemption" means that the object one was the property of a certain person, that it became lost to that person, and that that person again paid to have it back. So, in Exodus 15:13, long before any thought or mention of Jesus Christ, we learn that; "Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation." This was Israel. So your concept, "that redemption is based on faith in Jesus Christ" is invalid. And it is no good referring me to the New Testament because in Luke 1:68, with the birth of our Lord Jesus just six months away, and obviously the Subject of Zachariah's discourse under inspiration, we learn, "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people". That "His people" are Israel is not only stated, but is definitely meant as there was not yet one Believer then to make up "His people".

    That is why, no matter how you view my person, you should have addressed my argument from Deuteronomy 30. Did God lie in Deuteronomy 30:1-10? You must address it or agree, not with me, but with God. "Redemption" is based on the PRICE paid, not the feeble faith of a man (Rev.5:9).

    But then, in your last sentence of your first paragraph, you suddenly replace "redemption" with "salvation" - an abrupt change of concept. These are two totally different concepts. "Redemption" is defined above, but "salvation" means that by outside intervention you were diverted from a path that led to your loss. "Redemption" deals with OWNERSHIP of the Redeemer, but "Salvation" deals with ESCAPE and BENEFITS for the saved. And "salvation" in the Bible has diverse and multiple meanings. Noah was "saved" - but is it the same salvation as Israel in Egypt? And a woman can be saved by "childbearing" but this is not the same as saved from the Lake of Fire. So you must DEFINE your concepts. And when one comes to Israel, SCRIPTURE says that Israel are NOT saved by faith because GOD HIMSELF has concluded them ALL in blindness and unbelief "TILL THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES ARE FULL" (Rom.11:26-32). This end of the Gentile rule takes place at Armageddon. Armageddon takes place AFTER our Lord Jesus relieves Jerusalem. The relief of Jerusalem takes place AFTER our Lord Jesus is SEEN by Israel and touches down on Mount Olives.

    The "salvation" of Israel is NOT the "salvation" of a Christian. If we continue with Zachariah's prophecy (and that of all the prophets of old), Israel's salvation is to be (i) forgiven their sins, (ii) every Israelite ever born and died to be resurrected, (iii) every Israel born, died, resurrected - and those still alive - to be transported by angels back to the Good Land (Matt.24:31), (iv) ALL Israel with a New Covenant of Law written on their inward parts (Jer.31:31-33), and (v) every Israelite ...
    70 "As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
    71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
    73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
    74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
    75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life."
    (Luke 1:69-75)

    Israel's "salvation" is NOT the salvation of a Christian.
    1. There is no REBIRTH for an Israelite because that is by faith
    2. There is no eternal life for an Israelite because that is had by faith
    3. There is no "partaking of the divine nature" for that is by faith
    4. There is no transformation into the image of Christ for that is done by "beholding Him" (2nd Cor.3:18) and eating Him.
    5. There is no resurrection "like Christ" for the Israelite, for his glory in resurrection is "terrestrial", NOT celestial
    6. There is no rapture to the sky for Israel, only a rapture to the Good Land (Matt.24:31 Jer.49:36; Ezek.37:9)
    7. Israel lost the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt.21:43). The Church are made kings with Christ (Matt.24:47; Lk.12:44)
    8. Israel cannot be the Bride of Christ for they are not IN and OF Him like Eve was from Adam
    9. Israel are Gates of New Jerusalem, the Church is the Foundations and the Walls

    And lastly, just because many use the words "Messianic Jews" does not men that they mean anything. On the contrary. The concept defies scripture, for 2nd Corinthians 5:17 says that when a man becomes a Christian his past is eradicated and he becomes a new creature. Galatians 5:28 and Colossians 3:11 state it directly and unambiguously. There is no such thing as a Messianic Jew! It is the invention of men, and like all men's traditions, it overthrows the Word of God. Let us refrain from building a doctrine on an UNTRUTH.

  3. #48
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    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    God's people are God's people. We are part of the same olive tree in Romans 12:24. Should we call ourselves an olive tree instead of new creatures or Christians or all "Israel" in Romans 12:26? I don't think it matters, but I am glad you know they are all God's people.
    Yes, but we remain DIFFERENT and EXCLUSIVE. A Tree in Parable, and you know I have said before, is NOT the Church. It is a KINGDOM and its KING (Judges 9, Ezekiel 31 and Daniel 4). The Olive Tree is NOT Israel. Israel are the "natural branches". The Stem is "holy". That could only be Christ, for neither Israel nor Abraham were holy. The "wild branches" even after they are grafted in are still called "wild branches". So, in the present Kingdom Christ is the Root and Stem. Israel are cut out because of unbelief. This situation remains until the end of the age (or when Gentile rule is dashed to powder by the Lord Jesus). The wild branches remain "wild branches but are supplied by the "fatness of the Root". In New Jerusalem the status quo remains. Christ is the Chief Foundation of Jasper. The Church, made of Apostles and Christians are the Walls and Precious Stones. Israel are Gates and Pearls.

    While you have correctly said that both Israel and the Church are God's People, they NEVER MIX. They are NEVER lumped together. They remain as far apart in nature and content as the "sand of the sea shore" does from the "stars of heaven".

  4. #49
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    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I have read again your scriptures. And there are others that allude to heaven as a place we aspire to. However none of them actually say we will go to live in heaven. They simply point to the amazing time that God will come to dwell with mankind, after the Millennium, Revelation 21:1-7

    There is a coherent sequence to the end time events, speculation and guesswork isn't needed.
    Read Revelation 12:6-17, it describes living people, Christians; some who will be kept in a place of safety and some who must stay in the holy Land, while the world is under the control of Satan. Revelation 13:5-8
    Luke 23:42-43 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
    43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    How do you interpret these verses if the dead don't go to be with Jesus. At the time, paradise was under the earth.
    However, when Jesus rose into heaven, "he took captivity captive." Eph 4:8. That is, he took the spirits of his dead from under the earth and they followed Jesus into heaven.
    Prior to this time, no one ascended into heaven except Jesus. John 3:13
    Jesus shed his blood and prepared heaven for mankind. Heb 9:8-12. John 14:2.
    The body stays in the ground awaiting resurrection, but the spirit goes to be with Jesus in heaven.
    When Jesus comes, he will bring the spirits of his own with him. Jude 14.

    Rev 12:6 and Rev 12:14 both refer to the same period of time, the Great Tribulation.
    Rev 12:7 - Rev 14:20 is the 4th chronology that ends when God the Son comes to earth.
    The timing of this chronology is exactly the same from beginning to end as the 3rd chronology, Rev 8:6 - Rev 11:19.

    The war in heaven coincides with war on earth in trumpet 1.
    Satan is defeated as is the mountain or leader on earth in trumpet 2.
    Satan is cast from heaven in trumpet 3.
    Satan's angels are cast from heaven in trumpet 4.
    Woe on earth because Satan is cast out of heaven.
    Satan makes war against Israel and then against Christians in Rev 12:13-13:18; trumpets 5 and 6.
    The Great Tribulation ends after the 6th trumpet and after chapter 13.
    God intervenes on earth, ending the total domination of the beast, but God has not come to earth at this point.
    God the Father and God the Son are both symbolized coming in 11:19 with lightinings, voices, thunderings (the throne of God), and earthquake, and great hail. Jesus brings hail.
    Only God the Son is shown in 14:20. The winepress is hail squeezing the blood out of God's enemies.

    In my opinion, the coherent sequence to the end time events is found by comparing all 6 of the chronologies in the Revelation that end when God comes to earth.

  5. #50
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    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The Prophecy of the 70 Weeks in Dan 9 was exhausted in the time of Christ's earthly ministry. It therefore has *nothing* to do with the endtimes. There goes the 7 years, or 70th Week of Daniel, popularized in contemporary eschatology. And there goes all emphasis on a restored temple of animal sacrifices.
    Revelation 11 has the Jews again worshipping in their temple. There is nothing that states they will be doing it according to anything but ancient tradition. If it was restored today, animal sacrifice would be resumed. We will just have to watch and see on this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    NT Theology absolutely prohibits a restoration of animal worship under the Law. If the Jews did this, it would never be recognized by God. And if Antichrist situated himself there, it would be contrary to the Law, and Jews would not accept it.
    You are correct on both counts. Jews will restore animal worship under the law and it will not be recognized by God. Jews will flee from the abomination of desolation which is at the midpoint of those 7 years. I think it will be just after this midpoint that Antichrist situates himself there and Jews will not accept it. This is the start of the Great Tribulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If Antichrist started a new religion, and established his own temple, it would not be a temple of Law and animal sacrifices. Jews would not accept it, and it would not be a reasonable deception of the Jewish People. The Jews would accept a Messiah, true or false, but they would not accept an abridgment of the Law of Moses, rendering illegal anything that corrupts the Law, as Antichrist would.
    Antichrist will think to change the times and the law and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and a half time Dan 7:25. 3.5 years. When Antichrist starts his new religion in the Jewish Temple, he will not sacrifice according to Jewish law. Jews will not accept it, nor will they be deceived by it. Antichrist will be waging war against Israel at this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, Antichrist does not observe the Jewish religion, nor the Christian religion--not even the religion of Islam. He will be his own religion, claiming to have the authority of God to establish his own worship. The prototype was Antiochus 4, in ancient times, who Hellenized Judaism to destroy it.
    I agree.

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    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    Satan is cast from heaven in trumpet 3.
    Satan's angels are cast from heaven in trumpet 4.
    Satan and his angels are cast out at the same time, not in stages.

    Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Rev isn't written in chronological order.
    Doesn't it makes sense that the first fruits of God's harvest (14:1-5) would occur before the rest of the harvest (14:14-16).

    This is part of the larger story in chronological order that runs from Rev 12:7 - 14:20. 1 of 6 chronologies from chapter 6 through chapter 19.

    What chronologies do you have?

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    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Yes, but we remain DIFFERENT and EXCLUSIVE. A Tree in Parable, and you know I have said before, is NOT the Church. It is a KINGDOM and its KING (Judges 9, Ezekiel 31 and Daniel 4). The Olive Tree is NOT Israel. Israel are the "natural branches". The Stem is "holy". That could only be Christ, for neither Israel nor Abraham were holy. The "wild branches" even after they are grafted in are still called "wild branches". So, in the present Kingdom Christ is the Root and Stem. Israel are cut out because of unbelief. This situation remains until the end of the age (or when Gentile rule is dashed to powder by the Lord Jesus). The wild branches remain "wild branches but are supplied by the "fatness of the Root". In New Jerusalem the status quo remains. Christ is the Chief Foundation of Jasper. The Church, made of Apostles and Christians are the Walls and Precious Stones. Israel are Gates and Pearls.

    While you have correctly said that both Israel and the Church are God's People, they NEVER MIX. They are NEVER lumped together. They remain as far apart in nature and content as the "sand of the sea shore" does from the "stars of heaven".
    I strongly disagree with you on this point, but it runs away from the thread on the timing of events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Yes, but we remain DIFFERENT and EXCLUSIVE. A Tree in Parable, and you know I have said before, is NOT the Church. It is a KINGDOM and its KING (Judges 9, Ezekiel 31 and Daniel 4). The Olive Tree is NOT Israel. Israel are the "natural branches". The Stem is "holy". That could only be Christ, for neither Israel nor Abraham were holy. The "wild branches" even after they are grafted in are still called "wild branches". So, in the present Kingdom Christ is the Root and Stem. Israel are cut out because of unbelief. This situation remains until the end of the age (or when Gentile rule is dashed to powder by the Lord Jesus). The wild branches remain "wild branches but are supplied by the "fatness of the Root". In New Jerusalem the status quo remains. Christ is the Chief Foundation of Jasper. The Church, made of Apostles and Christians are the Walls and Precious Stones. Israel are Gates and Pearls.

    While you have correctly said that both Israel and the Church are God's People, they NEVER MIX. They are NEVER lumped together. They remain as far apart in nature and content as the "sand of the sea shore" does from the "stars of heaven".
    I strongly disagree with you on this point, but it runs away from the thread on the timing of events.

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    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    Doesn't it makes sense that the first fruits of God's harvest (14:1-5) would occur before the rest of the harvest (14:14-16).
    Some of Rev is in chronological order, but much is not. The first fruits are first reaped in Rev 14:16, so the first part of Rev 14 is not in chronological order.

    What chronologies do you have?

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...-of-Revelation
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Satan and his angels are cast out at the same time, not in stages.

    Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    I believe the earthly picture for this was Chernobyl. Satan was symbolized by the explosion (burning torch) in trumpet 3 and Satan's angels were symbolized by the resulting cloud in trumpet 4 (darkening1/3 of the sky, Rev 12:4 Satan controls 1/3 of the angels). Maybe stages isn't the right word, but I hope the picture explains the metaphor. Trumpets 3 and 4 go together just like the explosion and the radioactive cloud; and as Satan and his angels.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Satan and his angels are cast out at the same time, not in stages.

    Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    I believe the earthly picture for this was Chernobyl. Satan was symbolized by the explosion (burning torch) in trumpet 3 and Satan's angels were symbolized by the resulting cloud in trumpet 4 (darkening1/3 of the sky, Rev 12:4 Satan controls 1/3 of the angels). Maybe stages isn't the right word, but I hope the picture explains the metaphor. Trumpets 3 and 4 go together just like the explosion and the radioactive cloud; and as Satan and his angels.

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    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    Trumpets 3 and 4 go together just like the explosion and the radioactive cloud; and as Satan and his angels.

    I can't see one trump is Satan being cast out then the next trump is his angels being cast out. They are all cast out together and at the same time, in one trump...the 3rd trump looks to be a good fit, but not the 4th.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    Revelation 11 has the Jews again worshipping in their temple. There is nothing that states they will be doing it according to anything but ancient tradition. If it was restored today, animal sacrifice would be resumed. We will just have to watch and see on this one.
    False. NT theology strictly prohibits the reintroduction of temple worship. The true temple has always been in heaven, and the earthly temple always was just a temporary model of that reality.

    Rev 11 would never contradict NT theology, since the Apostle John clearly understood that the Law had been replaced with a "New Commandment." Therefore, we must recognize that Rev 11 was purely a vision, to be understood as an OT symbol of something happening in the NT era.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths
    You are correct on both counts. Jews will restore animal worship under the law and it will not be recognized by God. Jews will flee from the abomination of desolation which is at the midpoint of those 7 years. I think it will be just after this midpoint that Antichrist situates himself there and Jews will not accept it. This is the start of the Great Tribulation.
    I have a very different interpretation of the corresponding Scriptures. Jesus would never reveal a temple of worship, in the form of OT requirements, if He did not recognize it as a legitimate Jewish worship. Therefore, the temple mentioned in Rev 11 is purely an OT symbol representing true worship among the Jews in the NT era.

    If the Jews do restore animal worship, it of course would not be recognized by God. And I doubt if that happened the Jewish People, as a whole, would recognize it themselves. At best, it would only be the Orthodox, doing their own thing.

    The Abomination of Desolation had only two applications in history, and in the book of Daniel. None of them had anything to do with the Antichrist, nor with the Great Tribulation.

    The 1st AoD was Antiochus 4, mentioned in Dan 8 and 11. He was a forerunner of Antichrist. But never is the Antichrist said to be connected to the AoD.

    The 2nd AoD was the Roman Army, mentioned in Dan 9.26-27. Again, this had no bearing on the Antichrist, and did not indicate the Antichrist would also have an AoD.

    The Great Tribulation, according to Dan 12.1 and according to the Luke 21, began with the destruction of the Jewish temple (70 AD). And it was to continue until the end of the age. Never is the Great Tribulation called the Reign of Antichrist, although certainly, the Great Tribulation of the Jewish People continues in that time, since their "Great Tribulation" will not end until the very end of the age, when Christ returns.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths
    Antichrist will think to change the times and the law and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and a half time Dan 7:25. 3.5 years. When Antichrist starts his new religion in the Jewish Temple, he will not sacrifice according to Jewish law. Jews will not accept it, nor will they be deceived by it. Antichrist will be waging war against Israel at this time.
    Exactly. Antichrist will not follow the Law, nor temple worship. He will be his own god. I know that Paul said Antichrist will take his seat in the temple of God. What kind of temple that will be will likely be a form of self-deification, much as Antiochus 4 did. Whereas Antiochus 4 desecrated legitimate temple worship, when the temple worship was still law, Antichrist will proclaim his deity when there is no more temple law.

    Therefore, Antichrist will not likely appear in a temple of the Jews, even if it is illegitimate. And this cannot be based on Rev 11, which speaks of legitimate Jewish worship. That temple has to be symbolic of NT worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths
    I agree.
    While these things are not essentials of the Christian faith, I just thought you might be interested in what I believe on these matters? I'm glad we agree on some of it. I hope we're right on that much?

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    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    How do you explain that the Son of Man does not come on a cloud until Rev 14:14, and yet he is already on earth in Rev 1-5?
    Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9, 15&16 is the order of the Book of Rev. after the Seals have been opened. Rev. 1 the splendor of Jesus...Rev. 2-3 the Church Age....Rev. 4-5 the Church in Heaven before the Seals are opened {Middle of the week}. So Rev. 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and even much of 19 are events that happened in the RED NUMBERED CHAPTERS. These chapters are Parenthetical Citations. Rev. 14 for instance covers the full 7 years as does Rev. 19. Rev. 14 has a soliloquy of sorts in it LIKE THIS.

    Jesus lands on My Zion, the Jews {144,000 or ALL THE JEWS who repented} are shown with him, this might not be truthful in the physical sense at that very moment but it is supposed to show Jesus Harvesting the Jews {Wheat} and the Beast Followers {Evil Tares} at the exact same time, thus in verses 18-20 they get the Winepress of God's Wrath, BUT, right in the middle of this set aside chapter, this Parenthetical Chapter, we get a............soliloquy..........about the Church being Raptured by Jesus on a Cloud !! Its as if the story telling was STOPPED and the story of the Churches Raptured was told, as all other players were frozen in time. So Rev. 14 is about all the Harvests, where is Rev. 11 is about the Ministry of the Two-witnesses for 1260 days plus the few days after they die.

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    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    I strongly disagree with you on this point, but it runs away from the thread on the timing of events.
    I also, and so does Jesus; strongly disagrees with the idea that there are two peoples of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, +

    But regarding the OP, here is a sequence of prophesied events that I believe will happen within the next 20 years:
    What WILL happen:
    The enemies of the Lord gather - Micah 4:11-12, Ezekiel 36:2
    They conspire to attack Israel - Psalms 83:1-8, Isaiah 21:2
    They prepare their weapons - Psalms 7:12, Ezekiel 7:14 [This is the situation today]

    At the moment of attack, God will use His Creation, the sun to send fire - Deuteronomy 32:22 & 34-43, Isaiah 30:26 & 30, Psalms 11:4-6, Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7, Amos 1:1-15 & 2:1-5, , Psalms 50:1-3, Zephaniah 3:8, Revelation 6:12-17
    The sun will explode with an extremely bright flash and the moon will reflect bright red - Isaiah 30:26, Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20, Habakkuk 3:4-5
    The Lord will make their weapons recoil upon themselves, the EMP hit will cause them to explode - Psalms 7:13-16, Joel 3:4, Obadiah 15
    Then the sun, moon and stars will be obscured by the approaching Coronal Mass Ejection - Psalms 18:11-12, Isaiah 13:9-13, Ezekiel 32:7-8, Amos 8:9
    A huge superhot mass of hydrogen plasma approaches the earth Joel 1:15-20, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 1:14-18
    Everyone on earth will be shocked and terrified - Jeremiah 6:24-26, Ezekiel 21:5-7a, Isaiah 13:6-8, Revelation 6:15-17
    The atmosphere will be pushed aside Revelation 6:14, 2 Peter 3:10, Isaiah 34:4
    The whole earth will be enveloped by fire - Isaiah 66:15, Zeph. 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7
    Only a remnant will survive in the Holy Land - Zechariah 13:8-9, Isaiah 6:11-13
    He will punish the nations, the wicked will die - Isaiah 63:1-6, Habakkuk 3:12, Revelation 14 18-20, Isaiah 66:17, Isaiah 29:20-21, Hebrews 10:27
    His enemies will become ashes - Malachi 4:3, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 49:2, Matthew 3:12b
    Millions will die around the world - Psalms 97:3-5, Jeremiah 25:33, Isaiah 13:12
    The Lord will protect those who call to Him - Isaiah 43:2, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21
    But most people will take shelter until it passes. Isaiah 2:19, Revelation 6:15
    The survivors form a One World Govt. - Daniel 7:23-24, Revelation 17:12
    The Holy Land will be regenerated - Ezekiel 36:8, Joel 2:21-24, Isaiah 35:1-10, Amos 9:13-15, Jeremiah 33:12-14
    And the Lord's righteous people will gather there. - Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 7:9-14
    They will become the new nation of Beulah - Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 36:3-38, Jer. 31
    They will build a new Temple Zechariah 6:15, Haggai 2:9, Ezekiel 40 to 48
    The attack by a Northern army will be won by the Lord Ezekiel 38:22, Joel 2:20
    The leaders of Beulah will sign a 7 year peace treaty with the leader of the O.W.G. Daniel 9:27, Isaiah 28:15
    At the mid point he will break it and conquer Beulah -Daniel 9:27, Zechariah 14:1-2
    This commences the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation - Rev 8:2
    Those who kept their faith in God will be taken to a safe place on earth. Daniel 11:32b, Revelation 12:14
    3.5 years later, Jesus will Return for His Millennial reign - Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-4
    The Lord has told us His plans and He will not relent or change them - Jeremiah 4:28

    There are plenty more prophesies and details to prove this scenario.

    Believe it or not; up to everyone to decide! Psalms 19:11-12, Isaiah 48:6

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
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    218

    Re: The Timing of Events

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Some of Rev is in chronological order, but much is not. The first fruits are first reaped in Rev 14:16, so the first part of Rev 14 is not in chronological order.




    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...-of-Revelation
    Isn't it easier to believe that the first fruits of the harvest are pictured in chronological order?
    Isn't it easier to believe that the 144,000 are the first fruits to God because that is what they are called?
    Isn't it easier to believe that God's harvest follows the gathering of the first fruits in Rev 14:16.
    These are not called first fruits because they are not first fruits, they are God's harvest, those who belong to God.
    This is the only place in the book of Revelation that pictures 1 Thes 4:13-17, where the dead and the living are caught up to be with Jesus in the clouds.


    There is a second harvest in Rev 14:17-20. These do not belong to God. These are thrown into "the great winepress of the wrath of God."
    This will be the slaughter at Armageddon of those gathered in Rev 16:16.
    It can not be said that those of Rev 14:14-16 are first fruits of those in Rev 14:17-20 because the first group belongs to God and the second group does not.
    Where do you find the full harvest of God's people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Some of Rev is in chronological order, but much is not. The first fruits are first reaped in Rev 14:16, so the first part of Rev 14 is not in chronological order.




    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...-of-Revelation
    Isn't it easier to believe that the first fruits of the harvest are pictured in chronological order?
    Isn't it easier to believe that the 144,000 are the first fruits to God because that is what they are called?
    Isn't it easier to believe that God's harvest follows the gathering of the first fruits in Rev 14:16.
    These are not called first fruits because they are not first fruits, they are God's harvest, those who belong to God.
    This is the only place in the book of Revelation that pictures 1 Thes 4:13-17, where the dead and the living are caught up to be with Jesus in the clouds.


    There is a second harvest in Rev 14:17-20. These do not belong to God. These are thrown into "the great winepress of the wrath of God."
    This will be the slaughter at Armageddon of those gathered in Rev 16:16.
    It can not be said that those of Rev 14:14-16 are first fruits of those in Rev 14:17-20 because the first group belongs to God and the second group does not.
    Where do you find the full harvest of God's people?

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