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Thread: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

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    Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Something I have been working on, struggling with the many years is the sequence of the seals, trumpets, and vials. I am sure not the only one. We have heard the trumpets come out of the 7th seal and then the vials thereafter. Understandable to hold that view as the 7th seal is opened then the trumpets sound and then the vial later are poured out in order. The thing that keeps me from totally embracing that view is that at each last event, 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial appears to immediately usher in the second coming and not more time thereafter. Note they may not all have the same starting point but believe they all have the same ending point.

    7th seal

    The 7th seal starts with the effects from the 6th seal beforehand...Ö.so the day would start in blackness, moon as blood, no stars, heaven departed, and every mountain and island moved. So in reality can there really be any length of time left for the trumpets and or vials? If we align this with Matt 24 will there really be trumpets and vials between verses 29 and 30? Is not the day which goes black the DOTL when he comes as a thief in the literal night?

    Matt 24
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Joel 2:31
    The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

    Amos 5:20
    Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

    And if the 7th seal start in darkness and brings the DOTL then how can the sun be smitten during the trumpets?


    7th trumpet

    Likewise with the 7th trumpet. I believe this is the last trump no other trumpets mentioned, so does not Christ return on the last trump, are we not changed on the last trump? With the sounding of the 7th trumpet, this ushers in the last woe which comes "quickly" a reference I do believe is the 2nd coming. For Christ says he comes quickly mentioned 6 other times in Revelation.

    Rev 7:22
    Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book

    And not only that it is the time of the dead to be judged.

    Rev 11
    18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    So again with the 7th trump being the last when Christ returns, the third woe coming quickly, and the dead about to be judged sooner than later in addition to what is occurring at the 7th seal description above there appears no additional time for the vials to be poured out.

    In addition an earthquake accompanies all three and two of the three hail. So are there three great earthquakes or really just one when the 7th seal is opened, the 7th trumpet sounds and the 7th vial is poured culminating the 2nd coming.

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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Something I have been working on, struggling with the many years is the sequence of the seals, trumpets, and vials. I am sure not the only one. We have heard the trumpets come out of the 7th seal and then the vials thereafter. Understandable to hold that view as the 7th seal is opened then the trumpets sound and then the vial later are poured out in order. The thing that keeps me from totally embracing that view is that at each last event, 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial appears to immediately usher in the second coming and not more time thereafter. Note they may not all have the same starting point but believe they all have the same ending point.

    7th seal

    The 7th seal starts with the effects from the 6th seal beforehand...Ö.so the day would start in blackness, moon as blood, no stars, heaven departed, and every mountain and island moved. So in reality can there really be any length of time left for the trumpets and or vials? If we align this with Matt 24 will there really be trumpets and vials between verses 29 and 30? Is not the day which goes black the DOTL when he comes as a thief in the literal night?

    Matt 24
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Joel 2:31
    The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

    Amos 5:20
    Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

    And if the 7th seal start in darkness and brings the DOTL then how can the sun be smitten during the trumpets?


    7th trumpet

    Likewise with the 7th trumpet. I believe this is the last trump no other trumpets mentioned, so does not Christ return on the last trump, are we not changed on the last trump? With the sounding of the 7th trumpet, this ushers in the last woe which comes "quickly" a reference I do believe is the 2nd coming. For Christ says he comes quickly mentioned 6 other times in Revelation.

    Rev 7:22
    Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book

    And not only that it is the time of the dead to be judged.

    Rev 11
    18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    So again with the 7th trump being the last when Christ returns, the third woe coming quickly, and the dead about to be judged sooner than later in addition to what is occurring at the 7th seal description above there appears no additional time for the vials to be poured out.

    In addition an earthquake accompanies all three and two of the three hail. So are there three great earthquakes or really just one when the 7th seal is opened, the 7th trumpet sounds and the 7th vial is poured culminating the 2nd coming.
    Ross, the 7th seal leads to the first trumpet. You already know that of course. The 6th seal involves both the 7th trumpet and 7th vial. Do you see the contradiction if the first trumpet somehow chronologically follows the 6th seal?

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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Ross, the 7th seal leads to the first trumpet.
    8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
    2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

    Just because John sees the angels with the 7 trumpets after the 7th seal does not necessarily mean the trumpets start after. Let me explain. John is seeing a vision with multiple events taking place perhaps at the same time however John is unable to write in 3D so he needs to write them separately. So if in fact the seals and trumps were happening simultaneously I guess John could write them before or after he writes the seals.

    Again, when studying the seals, trumpets, and vials they all have the same end point.

    The 6th seal involves both the 7th trumpet and 7th vial.
    When the 7th seal is opened, the 7th trumpet sounds, and the 7th vial is poured out.

    Do you see the contradiction if the first trumpet somehow chronologically follows the 6th seal?
    David, you really got me confused here,.....not sure what you are trying to say. When do you think the first trump sounds?

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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The thing that keeps me from totally embracing that view is that at each last event, 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial appears to immediately usher in the second coming and not more time thereafter. Note they may not all have the same starting point but believe they all have the same ending point.
    Ross this is so true.

    Often people regard the seals , trumpets , and vials as 21 chronological events.

    But the truth is the 6th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial all describe a great earthquake at the second coming. As you say, they start at different times, but all end at the same time.

    As you say, there is no further time after the 7th seal to fit in the 7 trumpets and 7 vials, because the great earthquake and second coming have already occurred at the 6th seal.

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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Do you see the contradiction if the first trumpet somehow chronologically follows the 6th seal?
    I think Ross is saying that the vision of the 7 seals ends at Rev 8:1

    At Rev 8:2 there is a new vision, of the 7 trumpets.

    The phrase "and I saw" is often an indicator of a completely new vision in Revelation that does not relate to the previous vision.

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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Maybe it would be clearer to say that the seals apply to those who do not get wrath. Trumpets apply to those who follow the false Christ. Wrath applies to the people who donít repent of the false Christ.

    Iím not sure if I agree with the op but definitely maybe.

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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Quote Originally Posted by blur1 View Post
    Maybe it would be clearer to say that the seals apply to those who do not get wrath. Trumpets apply to those who follow the false Christ. Wrath applies to the people who don’t repent of the false Christ.

    I’m not sure if I agree with the op but definitely maybe.
    My take on it is that the seals deal with the four stages of the Roman Empire since it split into East and West, ending with the second coming.

    The trumpets deal mainly with the troubles of the great tribulation period, spread out over a few years, ending with the second coming.

    The bowls/vials deal with the judgements on that ten nation beast kingdom over the final year of the GT (EDIT: final few months) when they have largely rid themselves of saved Christians over large portions of the Middle East. God can send his wrath early there to the unsaved because there are few saved left in that ten nation beast kingdom, due to persecution/fleeing/beheadings/martydom.

    The wrath that the church escapes on the DOTL is the wrath on that final day, war/sulfur/hail/ stars falling/ earthquake/fire etc

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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    I have had a similar, but different, issue in my mind with respect to the same things. Are the images and symbols used in the Revelation representative of an order, or are they simply tools in conveying the Revelation in many different ways?

    For example, one guy says that the scroll opens consecutively 7 seals, and these 7 seals represent 7 different events that must develop in consecutive order. The argument is that if the symbols are opened in order, then so must the events.

    But is this true? Isn't it possible that the symbols do not literally present an order of events, but only are images used to convey events that may or may not be in consecutive order?

    For example, I could present 7 different papers on the rise of Antichrist. But the fact I present each paper consecutively bears no relationship on my thesis on the rise of Antichrist.

    The evolution towards the rise of Antichrist has its own order. And the fact I give 7 papers consecutively and chronologically to my audience has no bearing on whether I think the rise of Antichrist has any particular chronological order!

    I do believe we get all muddled up, thinking that the consecutive order of visions and symbols in the Revelation represent a *chronological sequence,* when they don't. Obviously, the unfolding of the Revelation in all of these scenes have a chronological and sequential order in which they are presented to John. But this has absolutely no bearing on what the chronology and sequence is of the Revelation as a whole.

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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I have had a similar, but different, issue in my mind with respect to the same things. Are the images and symbols used in the Revelation representative of an order, or are they simply tools in conveying the Revelation in many different ways?

    For example, one guy says that the scroll opens consecutively 7 seals, and these 7 seals represent 7 different events that must develop in consecutive order. The argument is that if the symbols are opened in order, then so must the events.

    But is this true? Isn't it possible that the symbols do not literally present an order of events, but only are images used to convey events that may or may not be in consecutive order?

    For example, I could present 7 different papers on the rise of Antichrist. But the fact I present each paper consecutively bears no relationship on my thesis on the rise of Antichrist.

    The evolution towards the rise of Antichrist has its own order. And the fact I give 7 papers consecutively and chronologically to my audience has no bearing on whether I think the rise of Antichrist has any particular chronological order!

    I do believe we get all muddled up, thinking that the consecutive order of visions and symbols in the Revelation represent a *chronological sequence,* when they don't. Obviously, the unfolding of the Revelation in all of these scenes have a chronological and sequential order in which they are presented to John. But this has absolutely no bearing on what the chronology and sequence is of the Revelation as a whole.
    I just think we need a bit of common sense. Common sense says there will not be multiple appearances of Jesus in the sky together with a massive earthquake each time.

    Therefore we can easily conclude that the book of Revelation contains multiple visions about the final troubles before the second coming, rather than being one long chronology.

    But when 7 events are numbered, it's obvious that they unfold in order 1 to 7. Sure we can intellectually speculate about other possibilities, but why move away from the truth with alternative possibilities when we know in our hearts what the obvious truth is.

    You may respond that it's not obvious, but that's between you and God because these truths are actually obvious to the more child-like among us.

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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I just think we need a bit of common sense. Common sense says there will not be multiple appearances of Jesus in the sky together with a massive earthquake each time.

    Therefore we can easily conclude that the book of Revelation contains multiple visions about the final troubles before the second coming, rather than being one long chronology.

    But when 7 events are numbered, it's obvious that they unfold in order 1 to 7. Sure we can intellectually speculate about other possibilities, but why move away from the truth with alternative possibilities when we know in our hearts what the obvious truth is.

    You may respond that it's not obvious, but that's between you and God because these truths are actually obvious to the more child-like among us.
    It just shows you don't understand what I'm trying to say. And that's okay. Let me try again.

    To open a 7 sealed scroll one seal after another does show a definitive order in which the seals are opened. They are opened 1,2,3... etc. However, this is just the *opening of the seals.* It doesn't represent the events so depicted as taking place in the same order!

    Nobody is arguing that the 7 seals aren't opened in order. What I'm arguing is that the events represented in each of these seals do *not* represent consecutive events in chronological order! The fact the seals are opened in order bears no relation to the order of events these seals represent.

    I could give you a list of the 10 worst jokes in history. And the list will be given in consecutive order, from 10 to 1. But the jokes so represented have no order by which they actually appeared in history. They may only represent *what I think* is the least worst joke to the very worst joke in history. 10 is the least worst joke in history. And 1 is the very worst joke in history, in my view. The order I list them has a chronological order as I give it. But this order bears no relation to the appearance of these jokes in history!

    If you don't get it, fine.

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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Interesting topic, I came to this exact conclusion a few years ago too. Here's that thread: Chronological Vs. Parallel. The part that pertains most to this subject:

    Seal VI. & VII - Great earthquake, No mountains and islands, "Wrath of the Lamb has come," thunder, lightning, rumblings, earthquake.
    Trumpet VII. - Lightning, rumblings, thunder, earthquake, heavy hail.
    Bowl VII. - "It is done!", lightning, rumblings, great earthquake, no mountains and islands, heavy hail.

    Self-evidently speaking of the same event, which is one of the many reasons I believe Revelation is more about the parallels and multiple perspectives (i.e.: world, spiritual, physical, etc.) than chronology.

    ross3421

    And if the 7th seal start in darkness and brings the DOTL then how can the sun be smitten during the trumpets?
    Great point, that didn't even occur to me.

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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It just shows you don't understand what I'm trying to say. And that's okay. Let me try again.

    To open a 7 sealed scroll one seal after another does show a definitive order in which the seals are opened. They are opened 1,2,3... etc. However, this is just the *opening of the seals.* It doesn't represent the events so depicted as taking place in the same order!

    Nobody is arguing that the 7 seals aren't opened in order. What I'm arguing is that the events represented in each of these seals do *not* represent consecutive events in chronological order! The fact the seals are opened in order bears no relation to the order of events these seals represent.

    I could give you a list of the 10 worst jokes in history. And the list will be given in consecutive order, from 10 to 1. But the jokes so represented have no order by which they actually appeared in history. They may only represent *what I think* is the least worst joke to the very worst joke in history. 10 is the least worst joke in history. And 1 is the very worst joke in history, in my view. The order I list them has a chronological order as I give it. But this order bears no relation to the appearance of these jokes in history!

    If you don't get it, fine.
    I do get it and have always understood ewq,'s perspective on the opening of the seals. This is exactly what I was responding to.

    Sure in heaven they were opened in order 1 to 7. Does this mean those 7 events will also unfold in the same chronological order that the seals were opened? Yes. It's pretty obvious to the simple among us. As if God would give us a set of randomly ordered events via opening a row of 7 seals, prophecy is difficult enough to understand with all its symbols. God will not confuse us further by giving us an unsequenced group of 7 visions.

    When listing eg list of jokes, it's historical order isn't significant, sure another criteria could be used than sequence over time. But God knows how very obviously sequence over time will be favored among us when looking at numbered prophetic lists and He is not one to randomly mess with our minds. He writes to the simple among us, so we can simply read and understand, and leaves the confusion to the brighter minds who get excited over the more complicated possibilities.

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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I do get it and have always understood ewq,'s perspective on the opening of the seals. This is exactly what I was responding to.

    Sure in heaven they were opened in order 1 to 7. Does this mean those 7 events will also unfold in the same chronological order that the seals were opened? Yes. It's pretty obvious to the simple among us. As if God would give us a set of randomly ordered events via opening a row of 7 seals, prophecy is difficult enough to understand with all its symbols. God will not confuse us further by giving us an unsequenced group of 7 visions.
    I just showed you that sequence does not equal chronological order. I gave you an example where sequence can indicate prioritization, and not chronological order. And yet you indicate it's obvious to you, and should be to others, that sequence *always* means chronological sequence. Baloney!

    What you should do is look at each seal, each trumpet, and each vial, to check if these are *individual events* designed to be sequenced. For example, if each seal, trumpet, and vial represent not individual events, but rather, diaramas, then you're not looking at events to be sequenced, but rather, at different scenes that fit into a narrative. They are ordered for some reason other than chronology. They are ordered to show direction towards an end, which every one of them could be doing without an exact chronological sequence.

    If I listed 7 years in a war in order, then logically, we are talking about a chronological sequence. But if I'm mentioning 7 crimes committed during a war, each with a complete historical accounting, then we are just talking about a list prioritizing each crime by some basis other than chronology, because each crime would have its own chronology.

    But you just throw this out, and say this is a done deal, that the overly-sophisticated would get tripped up over. In reality, it's laziness to not look at each event and recognize that they are not 7 quick events that can be arranged chronologically. Rather, they each represent events with their own extended chronologies.

    I've pointed this out some time ago on this forum, and my argument was not successfully refuted. I have the same arguments now. Let's just take the 4 horsemen. The 1st horsemen wages war, the 2nd horsemen takes peace from the earth, the 3rd horsemen bring famine, and the 4th horsemen brings all of these, including plagues. Do you really think that war precedes taking peace from the earth as separate events? No, each seal simply represents a different facet of the same time period. It is only the *vision* that is broken up and revealed to John successively. That way, John can look at each facet separately.

    The scroll is opened all at the same time, within the same hour or so that John saw the vision. Would you argue that John, because he saw the vision in one hour, that the 7 seals are all broken in a single hour? Of course not. Neither should you say that because John saw the seals broken consecutively that all the events so represented must take place in an historical sequence.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude
    When listing eg list of jokes, it's historical order isn't significant, sure another criteria could be used than sequence over time. But God knows how very obviously sequence over time will be favored among us when looking at numbered prophetic lists and He is not one to randomly mess with our minds. He writes to the simple among us, so we can simply read and understand, and leaves the confusion to the brighter minds who get excited over the more complicated possibilities.

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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post

    With the sounding of the 7th trumpet, this ushers in the last woe which comes "quickly" a reference I do believe is the 2nd coming. For Christ says he comes quickly mentioned 6 other times in Revelation.

    Rev 7:22
    Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book

    And not only that it is the time of the dead to be judged.

    Rev 11
    18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    So again with the 7th trump being the last when Christ returns, the third woe coming quickly, and the dead about to be judged sooner than later in addition to what is occurring at the 7th seal description above there appears no additional time for the vials to be poured out.

    In addition an earthquake accompanies all three and two of the three hail. So are there three great earthquakes or really just one when the 7th seal is opened, the 7th trumpet sounds and the 7th vial is poured culminating the 2nd coming.
    I agree with you (and I saw it long ago also). The 6th seal, 6th trumpet and 6th bowl (6,6,6) are referring to the actions of the beast that rose from the abyss, and the position of the "woes" makes this clear. The 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl are referring to the final judgment of a series of judgments.

    Jericho's walls came down the 7th time the people marched around the city, on the 7th day, and at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Noah's father Lamech died when he was 777 years old and according to Jewish tradition, the day Lamech died, the floods came.

    Seventh Trumpet:

    Characterised by: Flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

    Seventh plague or "bowl of wrath":

    Characterised by: Flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake.

    Seventh seal:

    Characterised by: Flashes of lighting, peals of thunder, rumblings, and an earthquake.

    Just because the vision regarding the trumpets starts after the vision regarding the seals, does not mean that the second vision has to follow the first in "time". It probably means John was being given different aspects of the same events, and he could not possibly have been given all aspects at the same time. First the bones, then the sinew that covers the bones, then the skin.

    It's all one and the same picture.

    6th seal: "And when He had opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake. And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood." (Rev.6:12) " And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of His wrath has come, and who will be able to stand?" (Rev.6:15-17)

    6th trumpet: angels bound at the river Euphrates are loosed and a slaughter occurs (the bottomless pit had been opened and the beast of 666 had risen - 5th trumpet).

    6th bowl: " And the sixth angel poured out his vial on the great river Euphrates. And its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the rising of the sun might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of demons, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that day, the great day of God Almighty.

    Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame. And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." (Rev. 16:12-16)

    If anyone does a study of the events occurring during each "woe", this becomes even clearer.

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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Something I have been working on, struggling with the many years is the sequence of the seals, trumpets, and vials. I am sure not the only one. We have heard the trumpets come out of the 7th seal and then the vials thereafter. Understandable to hold that view as the 7th seal is opened then the trumpets sound and then the vial later are poured out in order. The thing that keeps me from totally embracing that view is that at each last event, 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial appears to immediately usher in the second coming and not more time thereafter. Note they may not all have the same starting point but believe they all have the same ending point.

    7th seal

    The 7th seal starts with the effects from the 6th seal beforehand...….so the day would start in blackness, moon as blood, no stars, heaven departed, and every mountain and island moved. So in reality can there really be any length of time left for the trumpets and or vials? If we align this with Matt 24 will there really be trumpets and vials between verses 29 and 30? Is not the day which goes black the DOTL when he comes as a thief in the literal night?
    I have read though the whole thread and must say the biggest hindrance I see is a lack of understanding the Chronology of the book of Revelation. The reason we get these varied and sometimes outlandish timelines is people get confused by the chapters 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19, none of those chapters are chapters that aren't already covered as per the timelines go in chapters 6, 7, 8, 9 15&16. Thus if ones can not comprehend this he/she is never going to understand the timing of the Seals, Trumpets and Vials it seems. All this thinking about the Seals, Trumpets and Vials ending at the same time is just people who are confused by the book of Revelations timing, thus say they all ed t the same time, which of course the do not.

    Rev. 6 is the {WRATH OF THE LAMB} Seals....Rev. 7 is the Jews fleeing Judea and the Church seen in Heaven.....Rev. 8 is the Trumpet Judgments that hit the Earth, Seas and the Trees, or the first four Trumpets......Rev. 9 is the first TWO WOES.....Rev. 15 is the Angels readying the 7 Vials or the Final Woe, it begins with the 7th Trump.....Rev. 16 is the 7 Vials being poured out, which is the Final Woe. Everything else that comes after chapter 6 {10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19} happen during 6, 7, 8, 9, or 16 {15 happens in Heaven of course}. So think of it like that and see if you can piece it all together better.

    Rev. 6...Rev. 12, 13, 17 and 18 all START with the First Seal being opened, Rev. 11 starts 75 days before the First Seal and runs to 75 Days before the Beast dies {7th Trumpet}.

    Rev. 7 Jews Flee Judea, Church see in Heaven. This is why God says hurt not the Earth, Seas or Trees until the Jews are sealed {protected in Petra}.

    Rev. 8, 9 and 16 finish of the book of Revelation, when Jesus lands on Mt. Zion in Rev. 16, that is the Armageddon Supper in Rev. 19. In Rev. 11 the 7th Trumpet stands for the Seven Vials. Rev. 14 covers all 7 years as does Rev. 19. Rev. 18 covers all 3.5 years o God's Wrath, Babylon is MANKIND'S GOVERNMENTS getting pummeled with Plagues.

    Without understanding the proper timing of the book of Revelation people have zero shot ay grasping the BoR. To boot, all of the Earthquakes are described in vivid detail, and all three are totally different and described as such.

    Matt 24
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Joel 2:31
    The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

    Amos 5:20
    Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

    And if the 7th seal start in darkness and brings the DOTL then how can the sun be smitten during the trumpets?
    1. Immediately after the Tribulation of those days or TROUBLES OF THOSE DAYS, the sun will go dark, as will the moon etc. etc. We yea, of course this is true, the first Six Seals are all opened at the same time, on the same day, the first 4 {actually 5} show what the Anti-Christ/Little Horn has been LOOSED TO GO FORTH DOING over the next 42 months. Then the 6th Seal is opened. So the Troubles begin and immediately the Sun and Moon go Dark !! And THEN.......AFTERWARDS......The sign of the Son of Man coming.

    2. Joel 2:31 means IN THE FACE OF or in the Presence of, So Gods Wrath/Lambs Wrath starts with the First Seal and thus in the PRESENCE OF the DOTL, the 6th Seal will be opened and the Sun and Moon go dark.

    3. The 7th Seal doesn't start in Darkness per se, I think this "DARKNESS" is an Eclipse and thus a SIGN of God's impending judgment, and the Stars that fall are Demons being cast of of Heaven, including Satan {He's angry he has been cast down Rev. 12}. Then in the Trumpet Judgments it gets WORSE, we have DARKNESS by 1/3, not in full, not total darkness, again, the Trumpets are Judgment Warnings, they are 1/3 of what the Vials will bring. Then of course it says in the Vials that we got TOTAL DARKNESS, that is right before Jesus' Second Coming. So you aren't seemingly grasping the varying degrees of Judgment, instead of understanding the variants, you have chosen to just weave the three events into ONE EVENT, since you know God can't lie, but its not a UNTRUTH, its a misunderstanding by us humans, it an ECLIPSE.....Then a Darkening by 1/3.....then TOTAL DARKNESS. It's described as such.

    7th trumpet

    Likewise with the 7th trumpet. I believe this is the last trump no other trumpets mentioned, so does not Christ return on the last trump, are we not changed on the last trump? With the sounding of the 7th trumpet, this ushers in the last woe which comes "quickly" a reference I do believe is the 2nd coming. For Christ says he comes quickly mentioned 6 other times in Revelation.
    No the Last Trump is about the Rapture which happens pre 70th week. It has nothing to do with Trumpet Judgments. For the life of me I have no clue why people think God uses a Trumpet Judgment to call his Church home. Its the TRUMPET CALL of Jesus' VOICE !!

    Rev 7:22
    Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book

    And not only that it is the time of the dead to be judged.
    You reversed it, its 22:7 not 7:22, just fr those wondering. Jesus will come in a FLASH.....not Soon.

    Rev 11
    18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    So again with the 7th trump being the last when Christ returns, the third woe coming quickly, and the dead about to be judged sooner than later in addition to what is occurring at the 7th seal description above there appears no additional time for the vials to be poured out.

    In addition an earthquake accompanies all three and two of the three hail. So are there three great earthquakes or really just one when the 7th seal is opened, the 7th trumpet sounds and the 7th vial is poured culminating the 2nd coming.
    The Dead are judged in 1000 years after Christ's reign. Rev. 11 is just showing what the 7th Trumpet will bring.....the 7 Vials...Jesus' Reign on earth....the Second Death Judgment. My take is when people can't grasp the timeline of this awesome book, its like a riddle they can't solve, they keep throwing out WHAT IFS, when all we have to do is ask God, He will show us. He showed me the timeline because I asked, after 25 years of braying like a mule.

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