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Thread: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

  1. #16
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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I just showed you that sequence does not equal chronological order. I gave you an example where sequence can indicate prioritization, and not chronological order. And yet you indicate it's obvious to you, and should be to others, that sequence *always* means chronological sequence. Baloney!

    What you should do is look at each seal, each trumpet, and each vial, to check if these are *individual events* designed to be sequenced. For example, if each seal, trumpet, and vial represent not individual events, but rather, diaramas, then you're not looking at events to be sequenced, but rather, at different scenes that fit into a narrative. They are ordered for some reason other than chronology. They are ordered to show direction towards an end, which every one of them could be doing without an exact chronological sequence.

    If I listed 7 years in a war in order, then logically, we are talking about a chronological sequence. But if I'm mentioning 7 crimes committed during a war, each with a complete historical accounting, then we are just talking about a list prioritizing each crime by some basis other than chronology, because each crime would have its own chronology.

    But you just throw this out, and say this is a done deal, that the overly-sophisticated would get tripped up over. In reality, it's laziness to not look at each event and recognize that they are not 7 quick events that can be arranged chronologically. Rather, they each represent events with their own extended chronologies.

    I've pointed this out some time ago on this forum, and my argument was not successfully refuted. I have the same arguments now. Let's just take the 4 horsemen. The 1st horsemen wages war, the 2nd horsemen takes peace from the earth, the 3rd horsemen bring famine, and the 4th horsemen brings all of these, including plagues. Do you really think that war precedes taking peace from the earth as separate events? No, each seal simply represents a different facet of the same time period. It is only the *vision* that is broken up and revealed to John successively. That way, John can look at each facet separately.

    The scroll is opened all at the same time, within the same hour or so that John saw the vision. Would you argue that John, because he saw the vision in one hour, that the 7 seals are all broken in a single hour? Of course not. Neither should you say that because John saw the seals broken consecutively that all the events so represented must take place in an historical sequence.
    I disagree with you completely, even if you think my view is "baloney". I simply believe the 7 visions that John saw will actually unfold in the very same sequence that the seals are opened, being 1 to 7. Sure it's possible that they don't, but if we go down every possibility within each prophecy we will never be able to develop a coherent view.

    As per what the 4 horsemen actually represent, I believe they are the 4 stages of Rome since the east/west split over 1000 years ago. A coherent chronology can fit the 4 horsemen.
    But it's easier to exchange ideas when it is with respect and kindness.

    On this matter of the 7 seals hopefully we can respectfully disagree.

  2. #17
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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I disagree with you completely, even if you think my view is "baloney". I simply believe the 7 visions that John saw will actually unfold in the very same sequence that the seals are opened, being 1 to 7. Sure it's possible that they don't, but if we go down every possibility within each prophecy we will never be able to develop a coherent view.

    As per what the 4 horsemen actually represent, I believe they are the 4 stages of Rome since the east/west split over 1000 years ago. A coherent chronology can fit the 4 horsemen.
    But it's easier to exchange ideas when it is with respect and kindness.

    On this matter of the 7 seals hopefully we can respectfully disagree.
    Right, we do respectfully agree here. My "baloney" comment was in regard to your claim that only the "simple" see the truth, whereas the "sophisticated" over-complicate things. I'm saying "baloney" to the idea this is a cut and dried case that is obvious to the honest, who read things "as is."

    But here you admit it's all a matter of opinion and discussion, and I'm fully on board with you on this. There is no question that the seals are broken in sequence. But what the breaking of the seals represent, as a matter of history, is pure speculation. All we are given is that this is military conquest, cold war, famine, and these things with the addition of plagues.

    And then we have martyrdom, followed by a prelude to the coming of the Lord. How on earth we can "obviously" fit this into some consecutive scheme I can't imagine, unless you begin with the presumption that they are successive historical events that focus on each thing, one after another.

    Quite honestly, I see the "4 horsemen" as angels of judgment, condemning the earth to the curse of human sin, which brings about war, unrest, and the persecution of Christians.

    But when you compare the breaking of the seals to the 7 trumpet and to the 7 vials, I don't know how you can produce a chronological sequence between them? They appear to be separate visions, simply referred to at different places in the narrative. All 3 of these visions bring history to the point of Christ's return, so they *cannot* be sequential, or chronological.

    The matter of a chronological sequence from the 1st trumpet to the 7th trumpet is somewhat easier to do, but not a "done deal." They are similar to the 10 plagues of Egypt, which were chronological.

    But why would so much destruction be visited on the Beast Kingdom before the actual Coming of Christ? Plunging the Kingdom of the Beast into Darkness would effectively neutralize the power of the Beast at the very time that people are supposed to be worshiping him and admiring his military prowess.

    It seems more likely that these judgments show a climax to the curse of sin upon the earth. The ultimate judgment follows those acts of sin in the endtimes, consisting of the destruction of the Beast Kingdom at the Coming of Christ.

    While waters are being poisoned in the 3rd trumpet, the same thing seems to happen at the 3rd vial, with blood being poured out on the rivers! And why, in the 7 vials, is blood poured out on the sea before being poured out on the rivers?

    Frankly, the 6th seal, the 6th trumpet, and the 6th vial could all be speaking of Armageddon, taking place at exactly the same time! No, in my view, these 3 visions are separate visions, and not chronologically ordered. They appear at different places in the narrative to show how God views the need for judgment at each stage of human sin at the end of history.

  3. #18
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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Click on image to see full size.

    seals explained.jpg
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  4. #19
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    Re: Jackpot! Do all the 7's align in the end?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    But when you compare the breaking of the seals to the 7 trumpet and to the 7 vials, I don't know how you can produce a chronological sequence between them? They appear to be separate visions, simply referred to at different places in the narrative. All 3 of these visions bring history to the point of Christ's return, so they *cannot* be sequential, or chronological.

    The matter of a chronological sequence from the 1st trumpet to the 7th trumpet is somewhat easier to do, but not a "done deal." They are similar to the 10 plagues of Egypt, which were chronological.

    But why would so much destruction be visited on the Beast Kingdom before the actual Coming of Christ? Plunging the Kingdom of the Beast into Darkness would effectively neutralize the power of the Beast at the very time that people are supposed to be worshiping him and admiring his military prowess.

    It seems more likely that these judgments show a climax to the curse of sin upon the earth. The ultimate judgment follows those acts of sin in the endtimes, consisting of the destruction of the Beast Kingdom at the Coming of Christ.

    While waters are being poisoned in the 3rd trumpet, the same thing seems to happen at the 3rd vial, with blood being poured out on the rivers! And why, in the 7 vials, is blood poured out on the sea before being poured out on the rivers?

    Frankly, the 6th seal, the 6th trumpet, and the 6th vial could all be speaking of Armageddon
    I agree, they are 3 separate visions all ending at the second coming.

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