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Thread: John 14:2 Many Rooms

  1. #16
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    Jesus is coming back to earth and His Saints with Him, where are those Saints now? If they come back with Him, aren’t they with Him now?
    There are two sides to the story - the spiritual and the physical.
    1. God's intention was, by man eating of the Tree of Life, to enter man as a Spirit. Thus, in John 4 the PLACE of worship is not Gerizim (for the Samaritans), NOT Jerusalem (for the Jews) BUT the human spirit. Thus, the church becomes a "spiritual House" for God (1st Pet.2:5). In this organic and spiritual relationship we are WITH Christ.
    2. God's creation is physical. Our Lord Jesus is a physical Man. He sits PHYSICALLY in the Father's throne now and will PHYSICALLY return to earth. On His way back to earth we are BODILY Raptured to His presence. Only THEN will we be PHYSICALLY with Him.

    But God's plan is shown in the first point. That is why 2nd Corinthians 5:16 says; "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." God's wants the relationship to be SPIRITUAL. After our return with Christ and the battle of Armageddon, we will all go to our respective cities (Lk.19:17-19). There, the fleshly presentce is not achieved, but our spiritual relationship continues.

  2. #17
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You might be shocked to know that the phrase "eternal home" and "our home" never appear in scripture. But I think I know what you're getting at. But please, if I answer incorrectly or off the track, please forgive me.
    How the word "inheritance" is translated into English is of no consequences. We all know what our "inheritance" means. It's a place on the new earth in the fellowship of the Lord.

    When Jesus talks about a building with many rooms, I'm just suggesting that this elucidates upon what our inheritance on earth will actually be. It will be, I think, a *membership.* We will have a *place* here. It will not just be the Lord's place in us, although that also is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    According to Romans 1:18-21 the creation shows the glory and power of God. The creation is divided into the inanimate and the animated. Of the animated, we have a progression in the display of God's glory. We have the ecosystem, then animals, then angels, then man and then the Man Jesus. I put men higher than angels not because of POWER but because they are created in the image and likeness of God. And Christ, the Peak of creation is He, "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Hebrews 1:3). This auspicious and august title is not given to an angel, but a Man - the Man who allowed His blood to be shed by men.
    Not that it is an important matter here I don't put Man over Angels. I believe that Jesus was said to be, as man, created *lower* than the angels. Man is king on earth. The angels have their own domain, and do not rule over us here. Jesus is able to judge the angels both as God and as man, because angels have trespassed on man's territory, the earth.

    I'm not saying angels don't have a right to be here. I'm just saying that man's place on earth comes first, assuming that man has not given them access.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    If there is another such earth as ours or not I cannot tell, but as far as the Bible tells, this beautiful earth and its order is the place of God's physical creation where He chose to put man and the Man Jesus. It is also the place where He chose to have His ABODE. Contrary to popular doctrine, heaven is NOT God's ABODE. He does live there but both Isaiah 66:1 and Acts 7:49 CONTRAST heaven to His HOUSE. They read severally:
    1 "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?"
    49 "Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?"
    The earth, in context, is the place of God's house *among men.* We are not being told, in context, that God has no other thrones or houses, when it comes to His place among other beings. In fact, it appears to me that God's throne in heaven is his main throne room, from where He rules over both heaven and earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    So the desire of God revealed in this one sentence is:
    1. That the rules that apply in heaven should govern earth, and so we have our Lord Jesus' main teaching was about the Kingdom (OUT) of Heaven
    2. Footstool means that it is totally subject to God, and so we have our Lord teaching primarily, "the Kingdom of God"
    3. God's House or ABODE is ON EARTH, first as a wooden building with a Veil, and lastly a BODY of FLESH - the Body of Jesus
    4. God's "Rest" must be defined by the first "Rest". God rested when; (i) the creation was back in order in six days, (ii) man was in place, (iii) this man could meet with God and have fellowship in a Garden of pleasure, (iv) this man could subdue and rule the earth that had been restored to pristine condition, and (v) that this man would eat of the Tree of God's nature, be permeated and saturated with God's nature and EXHIBIT God's presence in him on earth.

    God never had any intention of taking man off the earth. God's full plan and investment with man and the earth was wrapped up in Eden. If Adam had obeyed God and eaten of the Tree of Life, God would have had His "REST" - His plan being consummated. The Rapture is not God's plan for men. It is a contingency plan to SAVE those who have put their trust in Christ from His wrath on the whole earth. And as soon as that wrath is abated and the antagonists subjected, God sets up His ABODE on earth again by causing the saints - the House of God (1st Tim.3:15) - to return with Christ and rule cities on earth.
    I believe the Rapture is not just designed to deliver men from the abuses of wicked men on earth, but also, in order to place men, for one second, in heaven in order to receive from Christ in heaven a heavenly nature like his own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    The center of God's plan is the earth. The achiever of God's Plan is the MAN Jesus. The EXTENSION and ENLARGEMENT of Christ is the Church. Man's HOUSE, or HOME is NOT the center of things. God's image, God's likeness, God's display and God's HOUSE is the plan and the center of the Bible.
    God's plan for the earth, of course, takes place on earth and through man. Our place with God on earth is subject to God's judgment.

    It is comparable to harvesting a field of wheat. The wheat is harvested and preserved in a silo. The chaff is gathered, and burned.

    And so, God's people, who represent God's image, are given a place on the new earth. Those who have rebelled, who do not represent God's image, are removed from the earth in some sense.

    I must quickly say I don't believe in annihilation. However, the idea of a "fire" has to do with the removal of the presence of the wicked. Their activities on earth will cease, along with their presence here. Where they go, whether in space, or in some compartment on earth, I don't know. They will not be free to share space with the righteous.

  3. #18

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    There are two sides to the story - the spiritual and the physical.
    1. God's intention was, by man eating of the Tree of Life, to enter man as a Spirit. Thus, in John 4 the PLACE of worship is not Gerizim (for the Samaritans), NOT Jerusalem (for the Jews) BUT the human spirit. Thus, the church becomes a "spiritual House" for God (1st Pet.2:5). In this organic and spiritual relationship we are WITH Christ.
    2. God's creation is physical. Our Lord Jesus is a physical Man. He sits PHYSICALLY in the Father's throne now and will PHYSICALLY return to earth. On His way back to earth we are BODILY Raptured to His presence. Only THEN will we be PHYSICALLY with Him.

    But God's plan is shown in the first point. That is why 2nd Corinthians 5:16 says; "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." God's wants the relationship to be SPIRITUAL. After our return with Christ and the battle of Armageddon, we will all go to our respective cities (Lk.19:17-19). There, the fleshly presentce is not achieved, but our spiritual relationship continues.
    Where are all the dead saints right now?

  4. #19

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    John 14:2 My Father's Mansion has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I was going there to prepare a place for you?

    I heard a pastor talk about this scripture on the radio, he mentioned how "mansion" or even "house" was a bad translation from the original Greek, explaining it really means "abode". The abode where God lives under the NT covenant is us, we are the temple of God, therefore, we are the actual rooms Jesus was talking about.

    Hopefully I am clear in the above, is this something others believe as well? I have not heard of this belief before, maybe it is common knowledge. I just wanted to get other's view on it.

    Thanks!
    To be honest, that pastor has the sorriest interpretation of plain scripture that I've heard in a while, and that is saying something. The unbelief in the church is astonishing to me. Jesus could not have been more clear. Doesn't the church understand that their is an enemy that seeks to steal the word before it can enter their hearts? There is no Bible code. The words mean what they say. I'm in awe that so many in the church do not believe in the kingdom of HEAVEN!

    John 14:2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

    Where is Jesus? Who cares if there are mansions or cardboard boxes to live in. The point is that Jesus was going somewhere to prepare a place for us and that He would return to bring us to where He dwells.


    Matthew 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

    Just in case the location of the kingdom of "heaven" wasn't clear enough, Jesus tells us plainly. Heaven is where His Father is. Why do so few in the church believe His actual words?

  5. #20

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnE View Post
    To be honest, that pastor has the sorriest interpretation of plain scripture that I've heard in a while, and that is saying something. The unbelief in the church is astonishing to me. Jesus could not have been more clear. Doesn't the church understand that their is an enemy that seeks to steal the word before it can enter their hearts? There is no Bible code. The words mean what they say. I'm in awe that so many in the church do not believe in the kingdom of HEAVEN!

    John 14:2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

    Where is Jesus? Who cares if there are mansions or cardboard boxes to live in. The point is that Jesus was going somewhere to prepare a place for us and that He would return to bring us to where He dwells.


    Matthew 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

    Just in case the location of the kingdom of "heaven" wasn't clear enough, Jesus tells us plainly. Heaven is where His Father is. Why do so few in the church believe His actual words?
    Except for this verse, Luke 17:21 "nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” The Kingdom is in us, all around us, has already come and is coming, God dwells in us.

    The Father lives in me, the Kingdom is in me, Jesus prepares me (actually He is preparing all of us as the Bride of Christ).

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnE View Post
    To be honest, that pastor has the sorriest interpretation of plain scripture that I've heard in a while, and that is saying something. The unbelief in the church is astonishing to me. Jesus could not have been more clear. Doesn't the church understand that their is an enemy that seeks to steal the word before it can enter their hearts? There is no Bible code. The words mean what they say. I'm in awe that so many in the church do not believe in the kingdom of HEAVEN!

    John 14:2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

    Where is Jesus? Who cares if there are mansions or cardboard boxes to live in. The point is that Jesus was going somewhere to prepare a place for us and that He would return to bring us to where He dwells.


    Matthew 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

    Just in case the location of the kingdom of "heaven" wasn't clear enough, Jesus tells us plainly. Heaven is where His Father is. Why do so few in the church believe His actual words?
    Except for this verse, Luke 17:21 "nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” The Kingdom is in us, all around us, has already come and is coming, God dwells in us.

    The Father lives in me, the Kingdom is in me, Jesus prepares me (actually He is preparing all of us as the Bride of Christ).

  6. #21

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    Except for this verse, Luke 17:21 "nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” The Kingdom is in us, all around us, has already come and is coming, God dwells in us.

    The Father lives in me, the Kingdom is in me, Jesus prepares me (actually He is preparing all of us as the Bride of Christ).
    Do you think that verse negates the Matthew 7:21 statement, which is quite clear?

    As for Luke 17, the context is needed.

    Luke 17:20... “The kingdom of God does not come with observation

    [Meaning: The rapture will not be visible to the unbelievers. Remember, the sun and moon are darkened.]
    Zephaniah 1:15
    That day is a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness
    Joel 2:2
    A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.

    Luke 17:21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

    [Meaning: Once we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, the kingdom of God is indeed in our midst.]

    Most don't understand that everything Jesus said is prophecy.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    Except for this verse, Luke 17:21 "nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” The Kingdom is in us, all around us, has already come and is coming, God dwells in us.

    The Father lives in me, the Kingdom is in me, Jesus prepares me (actually He is preparing all of us as the Bride of Christ).
    Do you think that verse negates the Matthew 7:21 statement, which is quite clear?

    As for Luke 17, the context is needed.

    Luke 17:20... “The kingdom of God does not come with observation

    [Meaning: The rapture will not be visible to the unbelievers. Remember, the sun and moon are darkened.]
    Zephaniah 1:15
    That day is a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness
    Joel 2:2
    A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.

    Luke 17:21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

    [Meaning: Once we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, the kingdom of God is indeed in our midst.]

    Most don't understand that everything Jesus said is prophecy.

  7. #22
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    How the word "inheritance" is translated into English is of no consequences. We all know what our "inheritance" means. It's a place on the new earth in the fellowship of the Lord.
    I know that we are just having an informal discussion, and each has their appreciation of things, but I have to differ. How any word is translated is of vital importance. In your previous post you used the word "home". I honored you and took it as "home". Now, in the blink of an eye it is no longer "home" but "inheritance" - a totally different concept. O.K. So lets follow that line then.

    The word "inheritance" in BOTH Testaments always refers to inheriting the Land or the earth EXCEPT in one case where the priests of Israel, who no inheritance of the Good Land, had, as their inheritance, God Himself (Numbers 18). Israel were to inherit Canaan, the Church, being attached to Abraham through Christ, are made heirs of the earth (Rom.4:13; Gal.2:29).

    When Jesus talks about a building with many rooms, I'm just suggesting that this elucidates upon what our inheritance on earth will actually be. It will be, I think, a *membership.* We will have a *place* here. It will not just be the Lord's place in us, although that also is true.
    O.K.

    Not that it is an important matter here I don't put Man over Angels. I believe that Jesus was said to be, as man, created *lower* than the angels. Man is king on earth. The angels have their own domain, and do not rule over us here. Jesus is able to judge the angels both as God and as man, because angels have trespassed on man's territory, the earth.

    I'm not saying angels don't have a right to be here. I'm just saying that man's place on earth comes first, assuming that man has not given them access.
    O.K. I did provide for this opinion, but I would just like to add the rest of the verses in Psalm 8:5, Hebrews 1:5, 13, 2:9, and 1st Peter 1:12. While man is made a littel lower than the angels, he is ELEVATED above them by God. But ... to each their own.


    The earth, in context, is the place of God's house *among men.* We are not being told, in context, that God has no other thrones or houses, when it comes to His place among other beings. In fact, it appears to me that God's throne in heaven is his main throne room, from where He rules over both heaven and earth.
    O.K. I hear you. I think I said almost the same thing, but would like to repeat; "although Gid lives in heaven, it is NEVER called His "HOUSE". God's House is (i) the Tabernacle, (ii) Solomon's Temple, (iii) Zerubbabel's Temple, (iv) Christ's Body and (v) the Church. Defining this is crucial for John 14 talks specifically of God's HOUSE.

    I believe the Rapture is not just designed to deliver men from the abuses of wicked men on earth, but also, in order to place men, for one second, in heaven in order to receive from Christ in heaven a heavenly nature like his own.
    I won't argue with this, but consider this. The Greek of John 3:3-5 allows the meaning "born from above". So a man receives his "heavenly nature and origin" at rebirth. Hebrews 3:1 says our calling is heavenly and while on earth we are to have heavenly treasure. Finally, at resurrection we receive a body made in heaven, but we receive it on earth BEFORE the Rapture (1st Thess.4:16-17). I would say that the Christian is through and through "heavenly" before the Rapture.

    God's plan for the earth, of course, takes place on earth and through man. Our place with God on earth is subject to God's judgment.

    It is comparable to harvesting a field of wheat. The wheat is harvested and preserved in a silo. The chaff is gathered, and burned.

    And so, God's people, who represent God's image, are given a place on the new earth. Those who have rebelled, who do not represent God's image, are removed from the earth in some sense.

    I must quickly say I don't believe in annihilation. However, the idea of a "fire" has to do with the removal of the presence of the wicked. Their activities on earth will cease, along with their presence here. Where they go, whether in space, or in some compartment on earth, I don't know. They will not be free to share space with the righteous.
    That's just it. Isaiah 66:24 says we will "look upon" these men. They are not removed. The Lake of Fire is NOT a PLACE. It is a CONDITION - a condition of "THEIR" worm and fire. This ties in with Matthew 10:28. It is a continual death of a man with both body and soul - that is, a living man.

  8. #23
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    Where are all the dead saints right now?
    In Hades, specifically in Paradise, under the earth. When a man dies his spirit returns to God (Eccl.3:21, 12:7), his body returns to the earth and his SOUL goes to Hades to wait for the resurrection. After man "became a living SOUL", he is always called "a soul". So where the SOUL goes, that is where the man is. In Acts Chapter 2 we see that David is still in Hades, that is - His SOUL. Christ went to Hades at death but did not stay there but three days. His SOUL was not held by Hades. When scripture says that we are with the Lord after death, it speaks of the SOUL of man. WE both know it cannot mean his body because we bury that and it remains under the ground. The dead saints are in Hades and Christ's omnipresent SOUL is with them (Ps.139:8).

  9. #24
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnE View Post
    To be honest, that pastor has the sorriest interpretation of plain scripture that I've heard in a while, and that is saying something. The unbelief in the church is astonishing to me. Jesus could not have been more clear. Doesn't the church understand that their is an enemy that seeks to steal the word before it can enter their hearts? There is no Bible code. The words mean what they say. I'm in awe that so many in the church do not believe in the kingdom of HEAVEN!

    John 14:2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

    Where is Jesus? Who cares if there are mansions or cardboard boxes to live in. The point is that Jesus was going somewhere to prepare a place for us and that He would return to bring us to where He dwells.


    Matthew 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

    Just in case the location of the kingdom of "heaven" wasn't clear enough, Jesus tells us plainly. Heaven is where His Father is. Why do so few in the church believe His actual words?
    You'll need to undo my argument of posting #6. There, I have dealt with the exact words that our Lord used WITHIN the context of the book of John.

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    Where are all the dead saints right now?
    Walls is a believer in hades, I believe we go to heaven around the throne. The throne is not in hades. I believe these are souls John saw around the throne.

    Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    Jesus said you would pass from death to life. Life to me is heavenly not hades.
    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Jesus prepares a place for us...I don't believe that place is in hades. Paradise to me is not in hades. Jesus said where he is where we would be also...where is Jesus? Jesus is no longer at the right hand of the Father... He is set down in the Fathers throne:
    Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    To me Acts 2 was accomplished and Jesus did this:
    Acts 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

    So Jesus set the captives free.


    The saints are in heaven. So you have different views on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    Where are all the dead saints right now?
    Walls is a believer in hades, I believe we go to heaven around the throne. The throne is not in hades. I believe these are souls John saw around the throne.

    Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    Jesus said you would pass from death to life. Life to me is heavenly not hades.
    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Jesus prepares a place for us...I don't believe that place is in hades. Paradise to me is not in hades. Jesus said where he is where we would be also...where is Jesus? Jesus is no longer at the right hand of the Father... He is set down in the Fathers throne:
    Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    To me Acts 2 was accomplished and Jesus did this:
    Acts 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

    So Jesus set the captives free.


    The saints are in heaven. So you have different views on this.

  11. #26
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    John 14:2 My Father's Mansion has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I was going there to prepare a place for you?

    I heard a pastor talk about this scripture on the radio, he mentioned how "mansion" or even "house" was a bad translation from the original Greek, explaining it really means "abode". The abode where God lives under the NT covenant is us, we are the temple of God, therefore, we are the actual rooms Jesus was talking about.

    Hopefully I am clear in the above, is this something others believe as well? I have not heard of this belief before, maybe it is common knowledge. I just wanted to get other's view on it.

    Thanks!
    Hi David. I can't subscribe to the "spiritual application only" interpretation of that passage. While the spiritual part is a truism, I believe the primary truth is speaking to eternity and the kingdom to come.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

  12. #27

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Hi David. I can't subscribe to the "spiritual application only" interpretation of that passage. While the spiritual part is a truism, I believe the primary truth is speaking to eternity and the kingdom to come.
    Thank you for your insight, David!

  13. #28

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    In Hades, specifically in Paradise, under the earth. When a man dies his spirit returns to God (Eccl.3:21, 12:7), his body returns to the earth and his SOUL goes to Hades to wait for the resurrection. After man "became a living SOUL", he is always called "a soul". So where the SOUL goes, that is where the man is. In Acts Chapter 2 we see that David is still in Hades, that is - His SOUL. Christ went to Hades at death but did not stay there but three days. His SOUL was not held by Hades. When scripture says that we are with the Lord after death, it speaks of the SOUL of man. WE both know it cannot mean his body because we bury that and it remains under the ground. The dead saints are in Hades and Christ's omnipresent SOUL is with them (Ps.139:8).
    Isn't this an Old Covenant position? It seems with the New Covenant things changed in this respect.

  14. #29

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You'll need to undo my argument of posting #6. There, I have dealt with the exact words that our Lord used WITHIN the context of the book of John.
    Well, I'd prefer to grow and expand rather than undo, but I know what you meant. I'll give it a whirl.

  15. #30

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You, ar the Pastor you heard is correct. The context includes one more verse. John 14:1-3 says:

    1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    2 In my Father's house are many ABODES: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


    Verse 1. The Father's House is FIVE things in scripture. (i) The Tabernacle of the Wilderness, (ii) Solomon's Temple, (iii) Zerubbabel's Temple, (iv) Christ's Body, (v) the Church. It is NEVER heaven. Even if God dwells there it is never called His "House". It is His "Throne".
    The Father's house is indeed in heaven, just as Enoch and Noah wrote, but we have long since discarded their writing as scripture though Jesus Himself called Enoch scripture twice. Anyhow, Jesus didn't need to go anywhere to give His Spirit to His people. He has been doing that since Adam and Eve. Many were filled with Jesus' Spirit in the OT. He actually went to a prepare a place for us. It isn't symbolic.

    Verse 2. The word "Mansions" is totally uncalled for. The word in the Greek text is the same one which the Translators rendered "abode" in verse 23. That means that in the New House of God, Christ's Body, which is the Church, there are many "abodes". These "abodes" are not for the Christian, but for God.
    This doesn't bother me at all. Mansions or cardboard boxes. I don't care. Every soul is a place for God to abide if they choose Him. When God said "Let there be light" He created every soul that would ever live upon the earth. The place to abide comes AFTER Jesus comes again to receive us unto Himself.

    Verse 2. "I go to prepare ... ". What prevented God dwelling in man? Sin. It is sin that caused God to protect His holiness and put a fiery sword to guard the Tree of Life so that Adam could not eat of it. Thus, Christ's "PREPARATION" is the setting aside of sin as the hindrance to God coming into man.
    Verse 3 confirms it. Our Lord says that He prepares a place for us believers/disciples, so that a future date we may be (future tense) "to be where He IS (present tense)" So all we have to do is find out where our Lord Jesus was at that moment. And He tells us Himself in 14:10-11;
    I'm not sure why the need for symbolism? I go means I go. He goes first, and then comes again to receive us unto Himself in the place where He went to prepare. Wherever He went is the place where He is when He receives us. Heaven.

    10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake."
    The Spirit of the Father is in Jesus, no doubt. This does not preclude the separate persons of the Father and Son who have physical bodies also. (People are both body and spirit also.)

    Verse 3. "I GO ...", and "I will COME AGAIN". When did our Lord GO and COME again after "preparing" by putting sin away. He WENT to the cross, He WENT to death, He WENT to Hades for three days, He WENT to the Father after telling the women at the tomb that He had not yet been to His Father, and that night, in John 20:22, He CAME to them (i) in the upper room, and He CAME to them (ii) by breathing Himself as the Holy Spirit INTO their human spirits.
    More symbolism, which isn't needed. He is talking about the kingdom He went to prepare. Remember when Jesus said "store up for yourselves treasure in heaven?" It is described in the New Jerusalem.

    The Book of John is different to the three synoptic gospels. It is not a history of Jesus. It is the Book that completes Genesis Chapters 2 and 3 where man is commanded to eat of the Tree of Life, but doesn't. The introductory Chapter of John is SEVEN things which constitute BETHEL - "the House of God". We have (i) the Word, (ii) the Word being incarnated, (iii) the Lamb for sins put away, (iv) The Holy Spirit for POWER in service to build, (v) Nathan, which means "gift of God", (vi) Peter - which means "a stone" for building the House of God and "BETHEL" the place of stones where a ladder is set on earth and angels FIRST ascend then DESCEND on it. The whole Book of John is a revelation of how God gets INTO MAN for an ABODE - the thing He wanted in Eden before the tree of Life.

    Thus, John 14 is simply the process of of Christ building the House of God. Christ IS (present tense) IN the Father and the Father IN Him. He goes to His death and resurrection to set aside sins as the Lamb of God, and once God has confirmed, by resurrection, that all sin is put away, Christ returns and breathes Himself in the Person of the Holy Spirit INTO His disciples - making then abodes of God.
    I realize many pursue symbolism to "interpret" scripture, but it isn't written that way. It actually means what it says. Paul and the disciples did not understand this very well. Remember, Jesus had just finished talking about going somewhere that the disciples could not go. Anyway, Elijah is coming in a few months before the Day of the Lord and he will explain all this. The outrageousness of his faith will flow into every nation on the earth.


    Now, if you still do not believe the saints will enter into heaven itself, how do deal with this:

    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

    Jesus plainly says His Father is in heaven. The very same place where the kingdom is. The kingdom of heaven.
    Do people that do not even believe in Jesus call Him Lord? Luke 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

    Matthew 11:11 “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

    If the kingdom of heaven is the church, or anywhere on the earth, isn't John included in it? How then can Jesus say the least "in the kingdom" is greater than one who is the greatest one born of woman? John was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb remember. If the kingdom of heaven is simply having the Holy Spirit, John had Him from the womb. How can the least in the kingdom be greater that the one who in the greatest? Unless the kingdom of heaven isn't symbolic. It is the actual kingdom, in heaven.

    Revelation 7 speaks of huge multitudes standing around the throne of the Father. You have already agreed that the Father's throne is in heaven. How do they get there?

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