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Thread: John 14:2 Many Rooms

  1. #31
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    Where are all the dead saints right now?
    "That where I am, there you may be also". That is what Jesus said. We also know where Jesus is at. He is at the right hand of the Father, in heaven right now. Jesus also told the thief on the cross that "this day you will be with me in paradise". Don't let the soul sleep folks tell you anything different than what scripture plainly teaches. We go to be with Jesus immediately upon death, and He is at the right hand of the Father now, after taking all those from paradise to the Father's place. That also is taught in John 14 along with that we are the Father's house.

    God bless!

  2. #32
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I know that we are just having an informal discussion, and each has their appreciation of things, but I have to differ. How any word is translated is of vital importance. In your previous post you used the word "home". I honored you and took it as "home". Now, in the blink of an eye it is no longer "home" but "inheritance" - a totally different concept. O.K. So lets follow that line then.
    I don't accept that as a necessary distinction, nor did I ever mean it to be one. This is your insinuation, and a false one. For me, the idea of our "eternal home" is, in fact, our biblical "inheritance."

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    The word "inheritance" in BOTH Testaments always refers to inheriting the Land or the earth EXCEPT in one case where the priests of Israel, who no inheritance of the Good Land, had, as their inheritance, God Himself (Numbers 18). Israel were to inherit Canaan, the Church, being attached to Abraham through Christ, are made heirs of the earth (Rom.4:13; Gal.2:29).
    Yes, that's true. Yet, it has no bearing. The lesson is, both the earth and the Lord can be our inheritance, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    O.K.

    O.K. I did provide for this opinion, but I would just like to add the rest of the verses in Psalm 8:5, Hebrews 1:5, 13, 2:9, and 1st Peter 1:12. While man is made a littel lower than the angels, he is ELEVATED above them by God. But ... to each their own.
    Yes, to each his own. However, I must say that the glorification of Christ, as divine Son, hardly qualifies in saying that Man, in general, is elevated above angels. We certainly have authority over them when they trespass into our domain on earth, unlawfully. But I'm not sure there is anything here suggesting that Man is actually "higher than" the angels when we are glorified together with Christ? Off topic, though...

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    O.K. I hear you. I think I said almost the same thing, but would like to repeat; "although Gid lives in heaven, it is NEVER called His "HOUSE". God's House is (i) the Tabernacle, (ii) Solomon's Temple, (iii) Zerubbabel's Temple, (iv) Christ's Body and (v) the Church. Defining this is crucial for John 14 talks specifically of God's HOUSE.
    Yes, this is your view. However, my view is that the tabernacle on earth was patterned after God's tabernacle in *heaven.*

    Heb 8.5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

    The tabernacle, or temple, is said to be *God's house.*

    1 Chron 6.48 Their fellow Levites were assigned to all the other duties of the tabernacle, the house of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    I won't argue with this, but consider this. The Greek of John 3:3-5 allows the meaning "born from above". So a man receives his "heavenly nature and origin" at rebirth. Hebrews 3:1 says our calling is heavenly and while on earth we are to have heavenly treasure. Finally, at resurrection we receive a body made in heaven, but we receive it on earth BEFORE the Rapture (1st Thess.4:16-17). I would say that the Christian is through and through "heavenly" before the Rapture.
    Yea, we differ here as well. As Jesus went to heaven to complete his glorification so the Church must go to heaven to receive our own glorification with Christ, who must glorify us before we descend from heaven to the earth. Biblically, "glorification" is the resurrection event of the Church. So if we are glorified in heaven with Christ before he returns, then we receive our new bodies *before* we return to earth with Christ. We must return in the same *physical condition* that he is in. This isn't "argumentation" as much as *discussion.*

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    That's just it. Isaiah 66:24 says we will "look upon" these men. They are not removed. The Lake of Fire is NOT a PLACE. It is a CONDITION - a condition of "THEIR" worm and fire. This ties in with Matthew 10:28. It is a continual death of a man with both body and soul - that is, a living man.
    This also is another subject. The interpretation of Isa 66 is open to debate. There may be aspects of futurism in it, as well as prophecies long ago fulfilled. It refers to "priests and Levites," which is OT. The condition of those being "worm and fire" has a reference to eternal death, similar to being buried in the ground with the worms forever. But the "fire" actually removes them in a purifying way. Since the worm "dies not," it is an indication that these people live on eternally, and yet die and stay dead with respect to the new earth. Respectfully...

  3. #33
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Hi David. I can't subscribe to the "spiritual application only" interpretation of that passage. While the spiritual part is a truism, I believe the primary truth is speaking to eternity and the kingdom to come.
    I agree that there is the "spiritual application" AND also that it is "speaking to eternity and the kingdom to come" … I wouldn't though necessarily say that "the primary truth is speaking to eternity and the kingdom to come." … I would say both are important (primary) and you can't have one without the other … that is my understanding ...
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  4. #34
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnE View Post
    If the kingdom of heaven is the church, or anywhere on the earth, isn't John included in it? How then can Jesus say the least "in the kingdom" is greater than one who is the greatest one born of woman? John was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb remember. If the kingdom of heaven is simply having the Holy Spirit, John had Him from the womb. How can the least in the kingdom be greater that the one who in the greatest? Unless the kingdom of heaven isn't symbolic. It is the actual kingdom, in heaven.
    If the kingdom of heaven is what you say "the actual kingdom, in heaven." … wouldn't John be "included in it"? Reading the Scripture first time … this passage was intriguing … seemed to be a puzzle … I think I will let you deal with this question first ...
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  5. #35
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't accept that as a necessary distinction, nor did I ever mean it to be one. This is your insinuation, and a false one. For me, the idea of our "eternal home" is, in fact, our biblical "inheritance."



    Yes, that's true. Yet, it has no bearing. The lesson is, both the earth and the Lord can be our inheritance, right?



    Yes, to each his own. However, I must say that the glorification of Christ, as divine Son, hardly qualifies in saying that Man, in general, is elevated above angels. We certainly have authority over them when they trespass into our domain on earth, unlawfully. But I'm not sure there is anything here suggesting that Man is actually "higher than" the angels when we are glorified together with Christ? Off topic, though...



    Yes, this is your view. However, my view is that the tabernacle on earth was patterned after God's tabernacle in *heaven.*

    Heb 8.5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

    The tabernacle, or temple, is said to be *God's house.*

    1 Chron 6.48 Their fellow Levites were assigned to all the other duties of the tabernacle, the house of God.



    Yea, we differ here as well. As Jesus went to heaven to complete his glorification so the Church must go to heaven to receive our own glorification with Christ, who must glorify us before we descend from heaven to the earth. Biblically, "glorification" is the resurrection event of the Church. So if we are glorified in heaven with Christ before he returns, then we receive our new bodies *before* we return to earth with Christ. We must return in the same *physical condition* that he is in. This isn't "argumentation" as much as *discussion.*



    This also is another subject. The interpretation of Isa 66 is open to debate. There may be aspects of futurism in it, as well as prophecies long ago fulfilled. It refers to "priests and Levites," which is OT. The condition of those being "worm and fire" has a reference to eternal death, similar to being buried in the ground with the worms forever. But the "fire" actually removes them in a purifying way. Since the worm "dies not," it is an indication that these people live on eternally, and yet die and stay dead with respect to the new earth. Respectfully...
    Thanks for swapping ideas. Your answers are read and noted. Go well bro.

  6. #36
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    John 14:2 My Father's Mansion has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I was going there to prepare a place for you?

    I heard a pastor talk about this scripture on the radio, he mentioned how "mansion" or even "house" was a bad translation from the original Greek, explaining it really means "abode". The abode where God lives under the NT covenant is us, we are the temple of God, therefore, we are the actual rooms Jesus was talking about.

    Hopefully I am clear in the above, is this something others believe as well? I have not heard of this belief before, maybe it is common knowledge. I just wanted to get other's view on it.

    Thanks!
    This is an interpretation from someone on this topic.

    The entirety of John 14 is about the mechanics of God indwelling a living mortal believer during this lifetime. And most of the chapter is spent explaining how this works to the disciples who didn't understand Christ's statement in 14:2-3. To simplify and boil down what this chapter is about, it is Jesus telling the disciples that when he leaves the Holy Spirit will come and live inside them. That's all it's about, everything in 14:2-3 is about this, nothing else.

    The 'mansion' or dwelling room is identified as being inside the mortal believer in verse 23. This is ultimately where God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and you end up dwelling together. This 'mansion' is in you. So if you will take this understanding to 14:2-3 and apply it first things will start to make more sense. You can 'reverse engineer' this text this way just using the definitions provided in the rest of the chapter.

    The "mansion" - the room inside you that God the Father occupies (proved in verse 23). A future arrangement for God and the disciples and a current arrangement between God and Jesus at the time of his statement. God the Father is already dwelling inside Christ in this manner at the time of his statement.

    (14:10 ....but the Father that dwelleth in me...) Jesus wants the disciples (and us) to have this same arrangement with the Father, but there is a problem, we cannot approach the Father directly. Only through Jesus can we have this arrangement. (14:6 ....no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.) So in order to receive the Father in us, we must receive Jesus in us, who has the Father in Him. But there is another problem. Jesus is a physical man. He can't live inside us in the physical condition he was in at the time of his statement.

    His solution to this problem is to return to heaven and return in Spirit (non-corporeal) form. In this form, He can live inside us, and since the Father is in Him, the Father will be in us also, through Jesus. So what we end up with is a Russian nesting doll type of situation with the Father in the centre, then Jesus, then the Holy Spirit. This is the complicated arrangement necessary in order for us to have the Father dwell inside us as Jesus had at the time.

    Taking this information and applying it to 14:2-3 we come up with this:

    "In my Father's house are many mansions" the "mansion" is in us, we each have a "mansion" or dwelling place for God within us (John 14:23 ...we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.)

    "I go to prepare a place for you" Jesus goes away in order to send the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy, Spirit indwelling is not possible since God can not dwell directly in us, nor can Jesus dwell within us as a physical man. Unless Jesus goes away the Holy Spirit cannot come (John 16:7 ...for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you..)

    "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again" Jesus then goes away and comes again as the Holy Spirit so indwelling is possible and we can have the Father inside us. (As to your question; This arrangement is FOREVER beginning from the time it takes place. And it takes place now, while we are living mortals, not some future time.)

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

    Can you see the fulfilment of Christ's words here? Jesus says "I will come again" in verse 3 and verse 18 shows him coming again? He says "I will come to you" and "I will be in you" when the Comforter is sent.

    I understand this is a bit complicated but everything about 14:2-3 is answered by Jesus in the immediate context. The complication is because we cannot have the Father dwell inside us directly. We need Jesus as a buffer between us and Him. Jesus has to jump through a few hoops to make it possible for the Father to dwell inside us.

  7. #37
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    This is an interpretation from someone on this topic.

    The entirety of John 14 is about the mechanics of God indwelling a living mortal believer during this lifetime. And most of the chapter is spent explaining how this works to the disciples who didn't understand Christ's statement in 14:2-3. To simplify and boil down what this chapter is about, it is Jesus telling the disciples that when he leaves the Holy Spirit will come and live inside them. That's all it's about, everything in 14:2-3 is about this, nothing else.

    The 'mansion' or dwelling room is identified as being inside the mortal believer in verse 23. This is ultimately where God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and you end up dwelling together. This 'mansion' is in you. So if you will take this understanding to 14:2-3 and apply it first things will start to make more sense. You can 'reverse engineer' this text this way just using the definitions provided in the rest of the chapter.

    The "mansion" - the room inside you that God the Father occupies (proved in verse 23). A future arrangement for God and the disciples and a current arrangement between God and Jesus at the time of his statement. God the Father is already dwelling inside Christ in this manner at the time of his statement.

    (14:10 ....but the Father that dwelleth in me...) Jesus wants the disciples (and us) to have this same arrangement with the Father, but there is a problem, we cannot approach the Father directly. Only through Jesus can we have this arrangement. (14:6 ....no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.) So in order to receive the Father in us, we must receive Jesus in us, who has the Father in Him. But there is another problem. Jesus is a physical man. He can't live inside us in the physical condition he was in at the time of his statement.

    His solution to this problem is to return to heaven and return in Spirit (non-corporeal) form. In this form, He can live inside us, and since the Father is in Him, the Father will be in us also, through Jesus. So what we end up with is a Russian nesting doll type of situation with the Father in the centre, then Jesus, then the Holy Spirit. This is the complicated arrangement necessary in order for us to have the Father dwell inside us as Jesus had at the time.

    Taking this information and applying it to 14:2-3 we come up with this:

    "In my Father's house are many mansions" the "mansion" is in us, we each have a "mansion" or dwelling place for God within us (John 14:23 ...we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.)

    "I go to prepare a place for you" Jesus goes away in order to send the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy, Spirit indwelling is not possible since God can not dwell directly in us, nor can Jesus dwell within us as a physical man. Unless Jesus goes away the Holy Spirit cannot come (John 16:7 ...for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you..)

    "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again" Jesus then goes away and comes again as the Holy Spirit so indwelling is possible and we can have the Father inside us. (As to your question; This arrangement is FOREVER beginning from the time it takes place. And it takes place now, while we are living mortals, not some future time.)

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

    Can you see the fulfilment of Christ's words here? Jesus says "I will come again" in verse 3 and verse 18 shows him coming again? He says "I will come to you" and "I will be in you" when the Comforter is sent.

    I understand this is a bit complicated but everything about 14:2-3 is answered by Jesus in the immediate context. The complication is because we cannot have the Father dwell inside us directly. We need Jesus as a buffer between us and Him. Jesus has to jump through a few hoops to make it possible for the Father to dwell inside us.
    You'll probably find that this exegesis above is almost exactly the same in essential content as my posting #6. This one is probably just written in a more simple and elegant way. Thank you for posting this.

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    I agree that there is the "spiritual application" AND also that it is "speaking to eternity and the kingdom to come" … I wouldn't though necessarily say that "the primary truth is speaking to eternity and the kingdom to come." … I would say both are important (primary) and you can't have one without the other … that is my understanding ...
    Keep in mind that I didn't say that one was more important than the other, but that the primary meaning of THAT PASSAGE was the literal fulfillment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    I agree that there is the "spiritual application" AND also that it is "speaking to eternity and the kingdom to come" … I wouldn't though necessarily say that "the primary truth is speaking to eternity and the kingdom to come." … I would say both are important (primary) and you can't have one without the other … that is my understanding ...
    Keep in mind that I didn't say that one was more important than the other, but that the primary meaning of THAT PASSAGE was the literal fulfillment.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Keep in mind that I didn't say that one was more important than the other, but that the primary meaning of THAT PASSAGE was the literal fulfillment.
    Ok. So by literal fulfillment of this passage do you mean He is away preparing literal physical homes/rooms for us that are separate from us, as in not the same thing as us ??? And they are literally in Heaven, separate from us … ??? And by literal do you mean physical homes that are separate from us, as in not the same thing as us??? And physical homes in Heaven, separate from us … ???
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    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    Ok. So by literal fulfillment of this passage do you mean He is away preparing literal physical homes/rooms for us that are separate from us, as in not the same thing as us ??? And they are literally in Heaven, separate from us … ??? And by literal do you mean physical homes that are separate from us, as in not the same thing as us??? And physical homes in Heaven, separate from us … ???
    I agree with the idea that the *primary application* has to do with a literal inheritance *on the earth.* It is a "heavenly inheritance" in the sense that it originates from heaven, as opposed to present conditions on the earth caused by sinful man. Our inheritance is future because present conditions are not what God ultimately intends for us.

    The entire presentation of an "inheritance" in Scriptures originates from the Abrahamic Promise, guaranteeing Israel an eternal country, and an eternal nationality. The nationality is tied to the country. If there isn't a single country, the nation fragments, and the unity is lost.

    And so, our inheritance in Christ is singular, but will take place on a new earth. All causes of sin will be removed, guaranteeing our spiritual unity.

  11. #41

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    Where are all the dead saints right now?
    To faith died these all. Dead in the bosom of the Abraham, Gal 3:23-25 YLT And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, for ye are all sons of God through the faith in (unto)<dative> Christ Jesus,

    The faith having come now translates those before the coming and those after the coming of, the faith, as being dead in Christ. Therefore it is said in Gal 3:29/16 and if ye are of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise -- heirs. / and to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed; He doth not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to thy seed,' which is Christ;

    All are Dead in Christ.

    Christ is returning to the earth to set up the kingdom on the earth. How will those dead in the bosom of the Abraham, the dead in faith, the dead in Christ proceed into that kingdom?

    1 Thes 4:14 YLT for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him, How? By raising them from the dead.
    4:15-17 for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede (Into the kingdom) those asleep, because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;

    1 Cor 15:50,51 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead (People, Larry, Curly and Mo) shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed:

    where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?' 1 Cor 15:55 YLT 'And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; Matt 16:18 where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?' 1 Cor 15:55 YLT

  12. #42

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I'm surprised that this thread did not generate more enthusiasm. The arguments for John 14 as speaking of the House of God and not heaven has wide implications. For instance, thousands of priests, pastors and lay preachers take the lead at funerals and stand at untold gravesides and use this scripture to bolster the belief that the deceased is "gone home to heaven". If John 14 means the Church - the House of God, and the many "abodes" are us, the Christians, then there is a massively wide-spread duping of the bereaved.Or is there an uneasy feeling growing among students of the bible that heaven isn't our destination and that the gospel of John reveals a far deeper and fundamental truth that it is God Who designed man as a Vessel and wants to get into man. There is a legend that when danger approaches, an Ostrich buries his head in the sand so that the danger doesn't bother him. Are the scores of Christians who read this thread not willing to join in and voice their opinions? If the matter of John 14 is the same as the rest of the Book of John - namely, the New and Living House of God with each of us members and abodes, then ten thousand Pastors are duping those put in their care.Here's my opinion. The doctrine of going to heaven as our eternal destination is trash. There is not a single verse that supports it. True, there is the rapture, but if we are to be with the Lord after the Rapture, why, He is coming back to earth - and His saints with Him. God made man "a little lower than the angels", but man is exquisitely made - made to hold and host the very God of the universe. No other creature has this privilege. Is this not so much higher than a pagan myth about spending eternity walking up and down a golden street and slapping everybody who made it on the back. (Oops! How can the dead man in heaven have a back when his body lies rotting on the earth?). God's original plan with man is outlined in Genesis 1:26-28. We are made from the earth, nourished by the earth for ruling the earth. And then, on top of this, "... we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us" (2nd Corinthians 4:7). God has not, and will not, change His course. His councils are immutable. John reveals BETHEL, not heaven!
    actually there are some verses that you may have not considered . Remember man is two,parts flesh and spirit. We understand the flesh is condemned to death it's why we all die , sin begats death. For instance where is Jesus promising the thief on the cross " this day you will be with me in paradise " where is he referring to? I also don't think " heaven " is the end destination but rather the new earth . BUT what about until his return? We know the souls of the slain saints are in heaven under the altar , we know the saints return from heaven following Jesus. just a few things to consider .....finally hell is not the end either hell is current . For instance Jesus tells a story about Lazarus the beggar and a rich man. ....when the rich man dies he is in hell and looks up and sees Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, Lazarus and the Rich man have both passed away and one is in hell the other is somewhere else , somewhere good , comforting . Remember this is not a reference to after all has been done , but life on earth is still occurring also in his story. the rich man in hell asks for someone to be sent to his family , so they can be warned and not come to the place he is being tormeneted....there is a perpetual place where those who die in the flesh , where thier spirit goes . Of course we know " dust returned to dust as it was( the flesh) and the spirit returns to God who gave it" so .....where does someone's spirit go? Until he returns and all things are restored ?I would say there are a lot of believers waiting with Jesus ....

  13. #43

    Wink Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    "That where I am, there you may be also". That is what Jesus said. We also know where Jesus is at. He is at the right hand of the Father, in heaven right now. Jesus also told the thief on the cross that "this day you will be with me in paradise". Don't let the soul sleep folks tell you anything different than what scripture plainly teaches. We go to be with Jesus immediately upon death, and He is at the right hand of the Father now, after taking all those from paradise to the Father's place. That also is taught in John 14 along with that we are the Father's house.God bless!
    amen until Christ came with eternal life and resurrection men slept , I think it was Samuel if I remember correctly who was raised up from his sleep by a spiritist in the o.t. He actually says something to the effect " why have you disturbed my rest" Christ " is the resurrection and the life " he also told the story of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man . Showing heaven and hell currently are occupied, while life goes on on earth . To be absent from our flesh is to be present with Christ. We will not die, just move up to better habitation

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    To faith died these all. Dead in the bosom of the Abraham, Gal 3:23-25 YLT And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, for ye are all sons of God through the faith in (unto)<dative> Christ Jesus,

    The faith having come now translates those before the coming and those after the coming of, the faith, as being dead in Christ. Therefore it is said in Gal 3:29/16 and if ye are of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise -- heirs. / and to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed; He doth not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to thy seed,' which is Christ;

    All are Dead in Christ.

    Christ is returning to the earth to set up the kingdom on the earth. How will those dead in the bosom of the Abraham, the dead in faith, the dead in Christ proceed into that kingdom?

    1 Thes 4:14 YLT for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him, How? By raising them from the dead.
    4:15-17 for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede (Into the kingdom) those asleep, because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;

    1 Cor 15:50,51 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead (People, Larry, Curly and Mo) shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed:

    where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?' 1 Cor 15:55 YLT 'And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; Matt 16:18 where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?' 1 Cor 15:55 YLT
    For me your answer to the question was a bit obscure. It's probably my fault. But I would like to highlight the salient points of these verses.
    • Abraham WAS (past tense) counted as righteous because of his faith. That was about 2,000 years before Christ. When our Lord Jesus came and told the narrative of Lazarus and the rich man, Abraham was still in Hades (Luke 16)
    • David, having written much about Christ in the Psalms some 1,000 years before Christ came, must be a believer. David is raised a king in the Millennium (Jer.30:9; Ezek.37:24; Hos.3:5). He must be born again to enter the Kingdom. In Acts 2 we learn that fifty days after our Lord rose from the dead, that David was still in Hades (vs.29, 34)
    • The Dead will RISE at the Coming of Christ (1st Cor.15.23)
    • The dead will RISE at the Coming of Christ (1st Thess.4:16-17)
    • Christ went to Hades and then ROSE. He said that He had not yet been to His Father AFTER HE ROSE
    • Christ said He would RAISE believers AT the "last day"
    • Our Lord Jesus sad that in order to build His Church HADES must be overcome (Matt.16:18). But the Church is built with BODIES (1st Cor.6:15). Therefore, a Christian only RISES when his soul escapes from HADES. If the Christians who have died still have their BODIES in their graves today, they are still in Hades.
    • There is not a single case of a dead man going to heaven in the whole Bible. Christ Himself, Who has preeminence in ALL things, did not go to His Father UNTIL He was alive again in His BODY

    The evidence is overwhelming. NO DEAD MEN, not even the dead Man Jesus, went to heaven until He had his BODY back from the dead and was ALIVE. Enoch and Elijah both are LIVING. Paul and John were translated to heaven while they were ALIVE. The Rapture takes place AFTER the resurrection. And so on.

  15. #45

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    For me your answer to the question was a bit obscure. It's probably my fault. But I would like to highlight the salient points of these verses.
    • Abraham WAS (past tense) counted as righteous because of his faith. That was about 2,000 years before Christ. When our Lord Jesus came and told the narrative of Lazarus and the rich man, Abraham was still in Hades (Luke 16)
    • David, having written much about Christ in the Psalms some 1,000 years before Christ came, must be a believer. David is raised a king in the Millennium (Jer.30:9; Ezek.37:24; Hos.3:5). He must be born again to enter the Kingdom. In Acts 2 we learn that fifty days after our Lord rose from the dead, that David was still in Hades (vs.29, 34)
    • The Dead will RISE at the Coming of Christ (1st Cor.15.23)
    • The dead will RISE at the Coming of Christ (1st Thess.4:16-17)
    • Christ went to Hades and then ROSE. He said that He had not yet been to His Father AFTER HE ROSE
    • Christ said He would RAISE believers AT the "last day"
    • Our Lord Jesus sad that in order to build His Church HADES must be overcome (Matt.16:18). But the Church is built with BODIES (1st Cor.6:15). Therefore, a Christian only RISES when his soul escapes from HADES. If the Christians who have died still have their BODIES in their graves today, they are still in Hades.
    • There is not a single case of a dead man going to heaven in the whole Bible. Christ Himself, Who has preeminence in ALL things, did not go to His Father UNTIL He was alive again in His BODY

    The evidence is overwhelming. NO DEAD MEN, not even the dead Man Jesus, went to heaven until He had his BODY back from the dead and was ALIVE. Enoch and Elijah both are LIVING. Paul and John were translated to heaven while they were ALIVE. The Rapture takes place AFTER the resurrection. And so on.
    “And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.”**Luke‬ *16:22-29‬ *KJV‬‬seems as if someone died and was taken by the Angels somewhere.....

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