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Thread: John 14:2 Many Rooms

  1. #46

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    “And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:”
    **Revelation‬ *6:9‬ *KJV‬‬


    seems some who were slain formGods word appear in heaven here......

  2. #47
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    actually there are some verses that you may have not considered . Remember man is two,parts flesh and spirit. We understand the flesh is condemned to death it's why we all die , sin begats death. For instance where is Jesus promising the thief on the cross " this day you will be with me in paradise " where is he referring to? I also don't think " heaven " is the end destination but rather the new earth . BUT what about until his return? We know the souls of the slain saints are in heaven under the altar , we know the saints return from heaven following Jesus. just a few things to consider .....finally hell is not the end either hell is current . For instance Jesus tells a story about Lazarus the beggar and a rich man. ....when the rich man dies he is in hell and looks up and sees Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, Lazarus and the Rich man have both passed away and one is in hell the other is somewhere else , somewhere good , comforting . Remember this is not a reference to after all has been done , but life on earth is still occurring also in his story. the rich man in hell asks for someone to be sent to his family , so they can be warned and not come to the place he is being tormeneted....there is a perpetual place where those who die in the flesh , where thier spirit goes . Of course we know " dust returned to dust as it was( the flesh) and the spirit returns to God who gave it" so .....where does someone's spirit go? Until he returns and all things are restored ?I would say there are a lot of believers waiting with Jesus ....
    Thank you for your answer. I made two statements bold to answer specifically, and the rest I will answer generally.

    (1) There is not a single bit of evidence that the saints under the altar are in heaven. Rather, the evidence points to the earth. When Moses made the Tabernacle, he was commanded to follow the pattern of the heavenly Tabernacle. In this Tabernacle is an alter - the GOLDEN altar of INCENSE. But the altar of SACRIFICE is OUTSIDE the Tabernacle and was Acacia wood overlaid with BRASS. There is no BRASS altar in heaven because it is not needed. There is no salvation for angels. It was upon this altar of BRASS that SACRIFICES were made. Even our Lord Jesus must carry His blood to heaven to present it before His Father (Heb.9:11-14).

    The commandment was that this altar may not be upon steps, "lest a man's nakedness be seen" (Ex.20:26). Our Lord Jesus was sacrificed ON EARTH. The EARTH received His blood. The EARTH is the altar of sacrifice. The martyrs of Revelation 6:9 shed their blood ON EARTH. The EARTH received their blood. The GOLDEN altar NEVER has blood on it. Thus, if the martyrs are under the altar they are under the earth. This is confirmed by 2nd Corinthians 5:1-3. Dead men are naked. If the altar of Revelation 6:9 were lifted, their "nakedness would be seen". All indications point to the martyrs of Revelation 6:9 as being UNDER THE EARTH.

    (2) It is true that the saints return from the sky with our Lord Jesus. Jude recorded that Enoch prophesied that the Lord would return with the saints (Jude 1:14). Zechariah 14:5 confirms this. But the Bible NEVER has a dead man in heaven EVER. So the question is, HOW, or, IN WHAT WAY could the saints come with the Lord Jesus from the sky when they are all in Hades UNDER THE EARTH? The following verses of 1st Thessalonians 4 show HOW. The dead are RAISED to the surface of the earth where they meet the living. The living are then changed to have the same caliber of BODY that the RAISED saints have (1st Cor.15:51-54), AND TOGETHER are caught up to meet the Lord Who is on His journey from the right hand of the Father in the highest heaven.

    Right you are about Lazarus and the rich man. But the word is really not HELL. That is a Roman Catholic concept from which our very eminent translators suffered from in 1611. The word in the original Greek is HADES. So all you have said about "hell" is actually about HADES. If HADES is correct then dead men, including Abraham, are in Hades. Besides there being not a single bit of evidence that dead men have moved out of Hades, David is still in Hades 50 days after Christ's resurrection in Acts 2. The dead believers only RISE at the coming of Christ. And right you are about HADES not being the final place. Christians are resurrected at Christ's coming (1st Cor.15:23). Israel is resurrected after the Great Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2), and 1,000 years later HADES gives up the "rest of the dead" (Rev.20:5, 13).

    Finally, ALL the dead saints are with Jesus (Phil.1:23). But consider this. Our Lord Jesus is RISEN. Acts Chapter 2 says that He is OUT OF HADES, and Ephesians 4:9-10 puts Him BODILY at the right hand of God in heaven. Now, when a saint dies we bury or cremate him/her. So we both agree that the saint is NOT BODILY with Jesus. He couldn't be if his/her body is still on the earth. His/her spirit cannot be meant because a man is a SOUL throughout the Bible (Gen.2:7, 12:5, 46:15, 17; Act.7:14, 27:37 and many more). God and angels are spirits, but man is a SOUL. So when our Lord died Matthew 12:40 says that He went to the heart of the earth. The criminal who called upon Him went their too - by default, because our Lord said he would be WITH HIM. So Philippians 1:23, by process of elimination, must mean that our Lord Jesus is WITH the dead saints IN SOUL. But how then if His SOUL is joined to His BODY in resurrection and this is in heaven??? Easy. Our Lord Jesus, having been glorified, is EMBODIED in the Spirit (otherwise He could not live in us, and as the SPIRIT of John 7:39, He can be at once (i) in heaven, (ii) on earth in the living saints, and (iii) IN HADES. And so Psalm 139:8 can truthfully say; "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in SHEOL, behold, thou art there." "Sheol" is the Hebrew counterpart of HADES in the Greek.

    The dead saint IS with the Lord IN HADES because the Lord, having passed through the process of human life, death, and resurrection is COMPLETE in that Spirit promised in John 7:39. Thus, "Abraham's Bosom" BECAME "Paradise", and is still "Paradise when Paul visited it during His 14 year training (2nd Cor.12; Gal.1:15 - 2:3).

    Again, all the evidence points to dead men, especially and including Christians, as being in HADES till the Second Coming of our Lord.

  3. #48
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    “And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:”
    **Revelation‬ *6:9‬ *KJV‬‬


    seems some who were slain formGods word appear in heaven here......
    May I answer your last two postings with my posting #47? Thank you.

    You will, I'm sure, admit that what ever you have been taught about Lazarus and the rich man, and the martyrs of Revelation 6:9, there isn't actually any statement, even implied, that heaven is meant. The contrary is the case. Consider the grammar of Luke 16:27-31. In verse 27 it is, "Then he (the rich man) said, I pray thee (Abraham) therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him (LAZARUS) to my father's house: The rich man responds to Abraham's pointer in verse 30, "And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent." Who did he mean? He meant LAZARUS! And he says TWICE, once in this verses and once in verse 31, that Lazarus was AMONG THE DEAD. And in verse 31 he says Lazarus would have to RISE from the dead. How could Lazarus RISE to the rich man's family if he was in heaven?

  4. #49

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    For me your answer to the question was a bit obscure. It's probably my fault. But I would like to highlight the salient points of these verses.
    • Abraham WAS (past tense) counted as righteous because of his faith. That was about 2,000 years before Christ. When our Lord Jesus came and told the narrative of Lazarus and the rich man, Abraham was still in Hades (Luke 16)
    • David, having written much about Christ in the Psalms some 1,000 years before Christ came, must be a believer. David is raised a king in the Millennium (Jer.30:9; Ezek.37:24; Hos.3:5). He must be born again to enter the Kingdom. In Acts 2 we learn that fifty days after our Lord rose from the dead, that David was still in Hades (vs.29, 34)
    • The Dead will RISE at the Coming of Christ (1st Cor.15.23)
    • The dead will RISE at the Coming of Christ (1st Thess.4:16-17)
    • Christ went to Hades and then ROSE. He said that He had not yet been to His Father AFTER HE ROSE
    • Christ said He would RAISE believers AT the "last day"
    • Our Lord Jesus sad that in order to build His Church HADES must be overcome (Matt.16:18). But the Church is built with BODIES (1st Cor.6:15). Therefore, a Christian only RISES when his soul escapes from HADES. If the Christians who have died still have their BODIES in their graves today, they are still in Hades.
    • There is not a single case of a dead man going to heaven in the whole Bible. Christ Himself, Who has preeminence in ALL things, did not go to His Father UNTIL He was alive again in His BODY

    The evidence is overwhelming. NO DEAD MEN, not even the dead Man Jesus, went to heaven until He had his BODY back from the dead and was ALIVE. Enoch and Elijah both are LIVING. Paul and John were translated to heaven while they were ALIVE. The Rapture takes place AFTER the resurrection. And so on.
    We basically agree. The soul David is still in Hades and his flesh did see corruption. David is dead until he is raised from the dead. Ditto all. All who will inherit the kingdom of God are dead in Christ.

    for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor 5:21

    Did that in bold require the death and resurrection of Jesus born of the virgin Mary, the Christ, the Son of the living God, the seed of Abraham? Even for Abraham to become the righteousness of God?

    Was Jesus, the seed of Abraham, the faith of Abraham, the one God called to believe? God called according to purpose, shall we say? Was Abraham called for the very purpose of Christ being his seed? Called for the purpose of Christ coming in the flesh to be obedient unto death even the death of the cross. Is the death of Christ the faith that was revealed by which we could be mage righteous?

    Gal 3:24,25 And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous,
    Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    We basically agree. The soul David is still in Hades and his flesh did see corruption.
    Is David the rich man Christ said went to Hades?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    We basically agree. The soul David is still in Hades and his flesh did see corruption. David is dead until he is raised from the dead. Ditto all. All who will inherit the kingdom of God are dead in Christ.

    for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor 5:21

    Did that in bold require the death and resurrection of Jesus born of the virgin Mary, the Christ, the Son of the living God, the seed of Abraham? Even for Abraham to become the righteousness of God?

    Was Jesus, the seed of Abraham, the faith of Abraham, the one God called to believe? God called according to purpose, shall we say? Was Abraham called for the very purpose of Christ being his seed? Called for the purpose of Christ coming in the flesh to be obedient unto death even the death of the cross. Is the death of Christ the faith that was revealed by which we could be mage righteous?

    Gal 3:24,25 And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous,
    Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
    For some reason I struggle to see the connection of your questions and scriptures to John 14. Forgive me if I'm dull. But I will attempt to answer your questions as they stand.

    The phrase "BECOME the righteousness of God" is foreign to me. Abraham had the righteousness of God IMPUTED to him. To understand this, we need to step back to the Tabernacle and the High Priest of Israel.

    Once a year, the High Priest of Israel was to have audience with a holy God Who dwelt behind a curtain and under the wings of Cherubim. Nothing that Aaron could do would be satisfactory for God to allow him into His presence. Aaron, most privileged of all Israel, could not do anything that would satisfy God. So Aaron must (i) slay sacrifices for himself and Israel, (ii) go through a special washing, and (iii) put on special clothes. One mistake, one moment of forgetfulness, one false move and Aaron was a dead man. God could not look upon the flesh. It was too polluted. So God set forth a ritual and clothing to make Aaron OBJECTIVELY holy. That is, Aaron was not holy, but his COVERING was. God IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS to Aaron.

    But when Aaron's duties on the Day of Atonement were over, and he stepped out of the Tabernacle, he was immediately subject to about 630 Laws given by God through Moses. These Aaron HAD to keep under threat of pain, loss, sickness and chastisement unto death. When he kept these Laws he established HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS. If he kept the Law he was SUBJECTIVELY righteous. This righteousness is NOT REPLACED by God's COVERING. Aaron must keep the Law of Moses AND he must wash and dress and kill sacrifices in minute accuracy for his visit to God.

    On what basis, may we ask, will God IMPUTE righteousness? Shall it not be EARNED? Well, the answer is again, man is not capable of earning his righteousness because no matter how righteous he is he still carries the flesh polluted by Adam's sin (Rom.5:12). So God sets forth a CONDITION for having His righteousness IMPUTED to a man. And that condition is that the man BELIEVES Him. It is not enough to believe IN Him because the evidence of God is in the creation for all to SEE (Rom.1:17-20). What did Abraham believe?

    Abraham believed that God, as Master and Creator of all things, including Sarah's barren womb, could, at will, INTERVENE in that creation. Many posters on this Forum, blessed and precious as they are, still look for natural causes to many things. But God is the God of the SUPERNATURAL. One wants a sunburst to sear the earth. Another needs a wind to pile up the Red Sea. What is this? UNBELIEF. Let us also see what Abraham believed God for;
    1. Abraham defeats three vicious Canaanite kings and recovers Lot and a pile of spoils. The kings who had lost the spoil to these three kings, want Abraham to keep the wealth as a reward. But Abraham refuses this generous offer. He KNEW how he won the fight with only abut 320 men. It was God's INTERVENTION. And he knew that if God wanted him to be wealthy, he did not need Canaanite kings. God would INTERVENE and make him wealthy.
    2. Abraham receives the Covenant of Promise - a Promise made by an oath from God. The Promise was that Abraham, and all that proceeded from his loins, would get the Land of Canaan as an "everlasting inheritance and possession". But in the nest breath, God says that Abraham, and his seed UP TO FOUR GENERATIONS would not get the Land in their lifetimes. What then is God's promise worth? For Abraham, there was a clear solution to this dilemma - RESURRECTION! God could INTERVENE in the matter of death and Abraham would still get the Land as an everlasting possession under God's arrangement that (i) God would cause Abraham's seed to get the Land against all odds, and that (ii) a man cannot die after resurrection (Lk.20:36). Although God clearly said that he would die before he got the Land, Abraham BELIEVED that God was good for His OATH.
    3. Abraham is asked to kill his ONLY son and HEIR. God had promised Abraham seed as (i) the sand of the sea shore, and (ii) the stars of heaven. How then could his seed continue if Isaac died without producing offspring? Abraham did not know. What he DID KNOW was that God could INTERVENE in this matter too. He went ahead with the sacrifice of Isaac until the very last moment with the knife laid to Isaac's throat. Even here, one must admire Abraham. Resurrection, as we are shown, would not have been enough here because a man does not marry after resurrection (Lk.20:35).

    Abraham BELIEVED God, and so God IMPUTES to Abraham HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. With that righteousness Abraham may have audience with God. He may enter God's presence for communication. He may be a "friend of God" even with the fallen flesh. But God is not yet finished. It is one thing to impute God's righteousness, but it is another to find a Man so righteous that THAT MAN'S RIGHTEOUSNESS CAN BE IMPUTED. God's utter integrity demands that a man is to be Substituted by a Man for both sin and blessing. The earth is Man's Domain and must be regulated by MEN. So God causes His Son to become a Man, and live His life under the rigors of the Law, WITHOUT A FAULT. Then God asks this Man to go beyond righteousness. God can never force a man to pay for another. That would not be righteous. But if that man KNEW of God's WILL, and did it VOLUNTARILY, God could accept that. And before one nail was driven into our Lord Jesus, Jesus had DECIDED to do His father's will. Despite the awfulness of hat lay before Him, Luke 9:51 tells us; "And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem."

    Jesus Christ set a righteousness according to the Law. This is a precious righteousness. But He went further. He established a righteousness ABOVE all righteousness BY KNOWING GOD'S WILL AND DOING IT EVEN THOUGH IT MEAN HIS TOTAL LOSS. This is no small thing. The Law of Moses required obedience with a REWARD at the end. Jesus established a righteousness based on OBEDIENCE with a TOTAL LOSS at the end of it. And it is THIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, which a MAN established, that God takes as His standard and imputes to men WHO BELIEVE JESUS. What Jesus did for God, God takes as His own. And then, when the conditions are fulfilled, God IMPUTES this righteousness to that man.

    The Book of Galatians is a fearsome book. In it, contrary to the whole New Testament philosophy of forgiveness and reconciliation, the Holy Spirit prompts Paul to say "... ACCURSED", and "... that they were CUT OFF" (Gal.1:8-9, 5:12) Why??? Because men taught that THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS BY THE LAW WAS SUPERIOR TO THE IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT CHRIST HAD ESTABLISHED. God has approved Christ and esteemed Him highly. Who is the foolish man that lowers Christ's work? How dare a mere man decide what Christ's life was worth? The Curtain of the Tabernacle is TORN from top (heaven) to bottom (the earth) by God, thus letting in unholy men made holy by this IMPUTED righteousness. Man's best could NEVER allow him past the Veil of the Tabernacle. Christ's best allows a multitude of things including access to God.

    So I answer your question, "did Christ have to die for His righteousness to be imputed to us?" The answer is NO! Christ established His righteousness BY HIS LIFE. By His death he established propitiation for us, but His LIFE established His righteousness. When He set His face like flint to do His fathers will in Luke 9, he was greater than Abraham who had decided to kill his son Isaac.

  7. #52

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Is David the rich man Christ said went to Hades?
    Me thinks Judah

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    Me thinks Judah
    Jacob's son Judah? What do you base that on?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I agree with the idea that the *primary application* has to do with a literal inheritance *on the earth.* It is a "heavenly inheritance" in the sense that it originates from heaven, as opposed to present conditions on the earth caused by sinful man. Our inheritance is future because present conditions are not what God ultimately intends for us.

    The entire presentation of an "inheritance" in Scriptures originates from the Abrahamic Promise, guaranteeing Israel an eternal country, and an eternal nationality. The nationality is tied to the country. If there isn't a single country, the nation fragments, and the unity is lost.

    And so, our inheritance in Christ is singular, but will take place on a new earth. All causes of sin will be removed, guaranteeing our spiritual unity.
    He is speaking of why their heart need not be troubled ... because of what the future brings ... so a literal inheritance "on the earth" ... I'm thinking but I could be wrong ... that you don't think He is preparing literal physical houses "on the earth" for them ...

    I think but again I could be wrong ... that everyone believes that there will be a "literal inheritance" ... just seems everyone doesn't agree where it is and what it is ...
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Reading postings is interesting, and I would like to comment on one point that is recurring. John Chapter 14 is NOT about OUR houses. It is about the FATHER'S HOUSE. This misconception comes from the 1,700 years or so of pagan doctrine that adherents will go to a "Celestial Lodge", commonly sold as Heaven, if their good works, when weighed in a Balance, are found to be more than the bad. From the time of the Reformation, "works" were substituted with faith, but the basic belief of Christians (and the rest of the world), is that some fancy, utopian and supernatural HOME awaits us in heaven. But how different is the revelation of scripture.

    Since Adam was put in front of the Tree of Life, it has been God's plan to have an APPROPRIATE ABODE ON EARTH. If Adam had eaten from that Tree, God would have got into Adam - specifically, sice God is a Spirit, into the human spirit of Adam. Adam, made of Body (the outer court), Soul (the holy place) and spirit (the Holy of Holies), is a direct copy of the Tabernacle in heaven. Sin came in and Adam, now burdened by the pollution of sin, was found unworthy to be God's ABODE. He is driven from the Garden of Fellowship and the Tree of Life. His offspring, inheriting the same pollution of a sinful nature, are banned too. And so it remained until a Man came Who was not polluted. This Man was Jesus and by BIRTH He is the House of God - the Holy Spirit having been party to His conception (Matt.1:18; Lk.1:35). So God got His House on earth. But God was not satisfied with this single Temple. His testimony and presence is too big to contain, and so His desire is to have a House that fills the earth. So our Lord Jesus voluntarily goes through a process whereby HE PREPARES the way for more men to become an extended HOUSE of God.

    The Gospel of John is the bridge between the Garden of Eden and the New Jerusalem. It is the gospel that reveals "BETHEL" - the "House of God". In Chapter 1 seven things are revealed that are needed for BETHEL. Chapter 2 reveals that God had a new an Living House in Jesus and that the extended House that God wanted would also be the Bride of Jesus. Chapter 3 shows how God gets into man. The New Birth puts God, a Spirit, into man's spirit (Jn.3:6). Chapter 4 reveals that the old PLACES of worship are OBSOLETE. Gerizim (for the Samaritans) and Jerusalem (for the Jews) were a temporary solution until the many ABODES in the Father's House could be prepared by the Man Jesus putting sin aside. Then the following Chapters reveal Christ as divine Life approaching a dead world to get God's Life into man. Then Chapter 14 prophesies that our Lord Jesus would go away from His disciples, not to escape God's plan, not to desert them, but to fix the issue that was stopping them being ABODES of God's House. He assures them that He will return "that where He IS (present tense) they would also be.

    And then He tells them were He is 14:10. "... I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." And once His death on Golgotha is approved by the Father as having set aside sin and sins, our Lord Jesus returns from the Father and breathes Himself as that Spirit of Chapter 7:39 INTO HIS DISCIPLES (Jn.20:22). On the evening following the resurrection, God got into men and the House of God was on its way to completion. It is a House made of men who have God DWELLING in their spirits and forming a "Gathering of select people" (Ekklesia) who have God in them and who are called "The House of the Living God" (1st Tim.3:15).

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Reading postings is interesting, and I would like to comment on one point that is recurring. John Chapter 14 is NOT about OUR houses. It is about the FATHER'S HOUSE.
    That is how I see it ...


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    And then He tells them were He is 14:10. "... I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." And once His death on Golgotha is approved by the Father as having set aside sin and sins, our Lord Jesus returns from the Father and breathes Himself as that Spirit of Chapter 7:39 INTO HIS DISCIPLES (Jn.20:22). On the evening following the resurrection, God got into men and the House of God was on its way to completion. It is a House made of men who have God DWELLING in their spirits and forming a "Gathering of select people" (Ekklesia) who have God in them and who are called "The House of the Living God" (1st Tim.3:15).
    And that is how I see it also ...
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    While I agree that the beginning of John 14, is about the Father's house. It is also meant to comfort Peter. But what about this portion of the passage?

    John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

    It seems to me that verse is about our abode. And He is coming back to take us with Him. Here's another version of the same verse:

    John 14:3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. NASB

    God bless!
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    While I agree that the beginning of John 14, is about the Father's house. It is also meant to comfort Peter. But what about this portion of the passage?

    John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

    It seems to me that verse is about our abode. And He is coming back to take us with Him. Here's another version of the same verse:

    John 14:3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. NASB

    God bless!
    My understanding is that it is us ... our abode is us ... and we are His abode and our abode ... He is in us and we together are His body (abode) ... that is how I understand it ...

    I also have to say ... I tend to believe that when we "die" which we don't actually die because He says that those who are living and believe in Him will never die ... that we go to heaven and are with him ... and I don't know if we who"died" will end up coming to the new earth and staying on the new earth ... I kind of think we won't ... but I think that the Kingdom of Heaven will also be on earth ... I can't really be dogmatic about any of it because I just don't know ... I highly doubt though that He is busy preparing literal physical homes for any of us anywhere ... I think that He was speaking metaphorically ... even though we and our new body is a physical home ... so in that way yes I can see that ...
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    May I answer your last two postings with my posting #47? Thank you.

    You will, I'm sure, admit that what ever you have been taught about Lazarus and the rich man, and the martyrs of Revelation 6:9, there isn't actually any statement, even implied, that heaven is meant. The contrary is the case. Consider the grammar of Luke 16:27-31. In verse 27 it is, "Then he (the rich man) said, I pray thee (Abraham) therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him (LAZARUS) to my father's house: The rich man responds to Abraham's pointer in verse 30, "And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent." Who did he mean? He meant LAZARUS! And he says TWICE, once in this verses and once in verse 31, that Lazarus was AMONG THE DEAD. And in verse 31 he says Lazarus would have to RISE from the dead. How could Lazarus RISE to the rich man's family if he was in heaven?
    I totally agree since all the dead (OT and NT) saints are still in the grave.

  15. #60
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I totally agree since all the dead (OT and NT) saints are still in the grave.
    That was though before Christ's resurrection ... here we see what happens after his resurrection ...

    Matthew 27

    50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

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