Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 103

Thread: John 14:2 Many Rooms

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,970
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    While I agree that the beginning of John 14, is about the Father's house. It is also meant to comfort Peter. But what about this portion of the passage?

    John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

    It seems to me that verse is about our abode. And He is coming back to take us with Him. Here's another version of the same verse:

    John 14:3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. NASB

    God bless!
    I don't think that John 14:3 is about the Holy Spirit coming to indwell the heart of believers.

    John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    From the above, we note the following:

    a. He will come and receive us to himself - the Paraclete doesn't receive "us" but to indwell in us.
    b. Where he is, makes clear that the reference here is not the Holy Spirit.

    The boldened part of John 14:3 corroborates with Jesus coming to welcome the risen and raptured saints according to 1 Thess 4:16 "the Lord descends..."17b and so shall we ever be with the Lord"KJV. IMHO, John 14:2-3 speak of both the Holy Spirit [embodiment of God] coming to abode with us and Jesus returning to welcome his resurrected/raptured saints in the end time.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Resting in Him
    Posts
    6,378

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I don't think that John 14:3 is about the Holy Spirit coming to indwell the heart of believers.

    John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    From the above, we note the following:

    a. He will come and receive us to himself - the Paraclete doesn't receive "us" but to indwell in us.
    b. Where he is, makes clear that the reference here is not the Holy Spirit.

    The boldened part of John 14:3 corroborates with Jesus coming to welcome the risen and raptured saints according to 1 Thess 4:16 "the Lord descends..."17b and so shall we ever be with the Lord"KJV. IMHO, John 14:2-3 speak of both the Holy Spirit [embodiment of God] coming to abode with us and Jesus returning to welcome his resurrected/raptured saints in the end time.
    Well I am thinking the final "receive you to Myself" is when Christ is fully formed in us ... and that this is the inheritance ... the holy spirit is just the "down payment" ...

    Ephisians 1:13-14

    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,970
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    Well I am thinking the final "receive you to Myself" is when Christ is fully formed in us ... and that this is the inheritance ... the holy spirit is just the "down payment" ...

    Ephisians 1:13-14

    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
    There's no such thing as "when Christ is fully formed in us". With the heart, man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation Rom10:10. There are no "stages" in being saved/salvation. Once you believe sincerely in your heart and confess Christ, you are saved.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Resting in Him
    Posts
    6,378

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    There's no such thing as "when Christ is fully formed in us". With the heart, man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation Rom10:10. There are no "stages" in being saved/salvation. Once you believe sincerely in your heart and confess Christ, you are saved.
    Galatians 4:19

    My little children, of whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you—


    So did these Galatians not have the Holy Spirit?


    1 John 3:12

    Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.


    If we shall be like Him ... does that not mean something like He is fully formed/manifest in us ???



    Now maybe you don't like the word "fully" that I used ... I get this idea from ...

    2 Corinthians 3:18

    But we all, with unveiled face [l]beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.


    "from glory to glory" gives me the thought that it is a process ...



    Romans 12:2

    And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.


    And here also we read about being transformed ... by the renewing of our mind ... again I see this as a process ... our mind is I think needs to be constantly renewed ...

    But well maybe the word "fully" should be removed from what I wrote ... although I think a maturing Christian ought to becoming more and more like Christ ...


    Ephesians 4:13

    till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


    We have this here also ... which seems to me to be not talking individually but collectively.




    I think there is a difference between being "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" and "Christ be formed in you" ...
    Last edited by Christinme; Jul 26th 2019 at 08:41 AM. Reason: change Ephesians 4:3 to Ephesians 4:13
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northeast Alabama
    Posts
    5,030

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    I've often heard teachings of the "forming of Christ in us" . It's been something that I've briefly looked at and I thing it would be a wonderful subject for another thread. Or this one.

    I lean to the side of "Christ being fully formed" in us as a part of our sanctification, as the verses you just posted point out.. After all, no one is perfected this side of Glory but we are being made perfect.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,227

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I've often heard teachings of the "forming of Christ in us" . It's been something that I've briefly looked at and I thing it would be a wonderful subject for another thread. Or this one.

    I lean to the side of "Christ being fully formed" in us as a part of our sanctification, as the verses you just posted point out.. After all, no one is perfected this side of Glory but we are being made perfect.
    I agree--interesting subject! We do make changes ourselves, by determining to do the right things by habit. But as we follow the Lord, I think there is a maturing process in which we *grow* into the image of Christ. We never become better than Christ himself--we simply take on his characteristics more easily and with greater strength to do so. It becomes more natural, perhaps. But good question. I'm not even sure what the Scriptural answer might be?

  7. #67

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    .....there's no evidence the saints under the altar are in heaven ? ....really? John is taken into heaven in his vision, where he sees Jesus being presented in chapter 5 who then opens the seven seals , the fifth being the souls under the altar that was described in heaven .....


    As I read your comment it seems you are just avoiding things and explaining how the right words aren't used in scripture...honestly I think you may be wrong , and can't accept it. But that's not to insult you or anything, just an observation.

    what do you make of all the eldrpers around the throne in heaven where John is taken into in the revelation? He sees a door open in heaven , is called up into it....begins seeing the temple in heaven where the seven angels are, where the lamb is presented ect... There's a lot going on right now in the heaven,y places .....and there are a lot of people who have died , there with Jesus .

    are you understanding man has a spirit, and also flesh? The flesh is condemned it can never inherit eternal,life . Our flesh rots and returns to the dust we came from, but our spirit which came from God at creation when he breathed it into mankind, each man then born has a spirit this spirit doesn't rot in the ground at death..."it returns to God who gave it "

    at the resurrection , we aren't going to receive those rotted dead bodies back, but new glorified bodies which our spirits will then inhabit , like we are now inhabiting These dying bodies , the flesh is only a tent for the spirit, the body does, the spirit in Christ goes to be with him, our bodies will be restored at the resurrection.


    hell is destroyed in the end , and all the people in hell are delivered up at the great judgement, hell is then itself cast into the lake of fire ...the second death. The people in hell are there now, the people in Christ are with him now . And he is at Gods right hand on the throne in the heavenly Jerusalem which comes down from heaven when things are renewed ....again in heaven before the throne there are also those who were slain for the word of God standing on the sea of glass before Gods throne ....and again a reference to the tabernacle in heaven where johns vision is occurring...


    “And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

    And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:”
    **Revelation‬ *15:2-3, 5‬ *KJV‬‬


    heaven is a real place , and John was taken into heaven and shown heavenly things .....it's why so many don't grasp revelation....

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,980

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    That was though before Christ's resurrection ... here we see what happens after his resurrection ...

    Matthew 27

    50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
    Good observation, and I will deal with it presently. But you left it hanging in the air. Where did these resurrected go after that? It matters not a wit to our discussion because they are the LIVING. We discuss the DEAD.

    But how come they were resurrected out of time? After all, the Holy Spirit says that "those that are His" are resurrected "at his coming" (1st Cor.15:23), to which 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17 agrees. What was this special and select resurrection? It is this:

    Jehovah, Creator and Owner of this universe has absolute claim over all things. And in His generosity with man, He demands only the FIRST TENTH, or THE FIRSTFRUITS of men, animals and agriculture. To show men all the problems they have with God, God institutes an OFFERING for EACH ONE. We think that our only problems with God is sin ans sins, but the first three Offerings of Leviticus did NOT deal with sin, and one, the Meal Offering has no blood shed. The Burnt Offering, the Meal Offering and the Peace Offering do not address sin and sins. They address problems that man has with God outside of sin and Christ must be EQUALLY the Burnt Offering as He must be the Sin Offering. To explain all these takes books, so I will not even attempt it, but I want to pint out the "WAVE OFFERING". In Leviticus 23:10-11 it reads;

    10 "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
    11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it."


    • Now, that the resurrection is meant is told by the day - "the morrow after the Sabbath" - the day that Christ was raised.
    • And Christ is the "firstfruits of the dead" (1st Cor.15:20)
    • So Christ must, by decree of the Father Who claims the Firstfruits, be "waved before the Lord"
    • But the Offering that Christ fulfilled commands a "sheaf"

    Thus, on the morning that He was raised from the dead, our Lord Jesus said to the woman at the tomb, "don't touch me because I have not yet ascended to my Father". They may not touch Him because He is FIRST for God, being Firstfruits. That night our Lord Jesus said that they could "touch and handle" Him because He had been to the Father and the Father had had the joy of the Firstfruits.

    But it must be a "sheaf". One "ear of corn" is not enough. God wants not 1%, but 10%. So a company of Old Testament saints are allowed to be raised on the same day to form the "sheaf". However, it must be noted that our Lord Jesus not only is the Firstfruits, but He must have "preeminence in ALL things" (Col.1:18). So there is a small word in Matthew 27:53 that you quoted, that settles everything. The "sheaf", or company of saints that made up the "sheaf" were raised "AFTER" Christ's resurrection - probably an hour or so later. These saints are now alive. Where are they? The Bible does not say. But if we go by their fame, for they were known then to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, if they were on earth they would be famous men. But they are not. I can only surmise that the are in the third heaven waiting for the rapture, to join us in the air.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,980

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I don't think that John 14:3 is about the Holy Spirit coming to indwell the heart of believers.

    John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    From the above, we note the following:

    a. He will come and receive us to himself - the Paraclete doesn't receive "us" but to indwell in us.
    b. Where he is, makes clear that the reference here is not the Holy Spirit.

    The boldened part of John 14:3 corroborates with Jesus coming to welcome the risen and raptured saints according to 1 Thess 4:16 "the Lord descends..."17b and so shall we ever be with the Lord"KJV. IMHO, John 14:2-3 speak of both the Holy Spirit [embodiment of God] coming to abode with us and Jesus returning to welcome his resurrected/raptured saints in the end time.
    Nay my esteemed brother. You have missed the vital point.

    What says John 14:10-11;

    10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake."


    If you can understand this or not (for it exceeds the boundaries of the human intellect) the fact is that Christ is IN the Father and the Father is IN Christ. And what shall it be then for the Christians? Within the same context our Lord Jesus says in verses 16-23:-

    16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever
    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you".


    The Holy Spirit (an-OTHER) will be with us and IN us

    18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
    19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
    20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."


    The Lord Jesus, "in that same day" will be with us and IN us, AND we will be IN Him

    23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

    The Father and the Son will be IN the saints. The saint is an ABODE.

    Not only will will we the Father, Son and Spirit be IN US, BUT we will be in THEM - whether it boggles the mind or not.

    The Gospel of John is about the Father House. A House is for DWELLING IN. Ephesians 2:18-22 says it beautifully;

    18 "For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple IN the Lord:
    22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,980

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    .....there's no evidence the saints under the altar are in heaven ? ....really? John is taken into heaven in his vision, where he sees Jesus being presented in chapter 5 who then opens the seven seals , the fifth being the souls under the altar that was described in heaven .....


    As I read your comment it seems you are just avoiding things and explaining how the right words aren't used in scripture...honestly I think you may be wrong , and can't accept it. But that's not to insult you or anything, just an observation.

    what do you make of all the eldrpers around the throne in heaven where John is taken into in the revelation? He sees a door open in heaven , is called up into it....begins seeing the temple in heaven where the seven angels are, where the lamb is presented ect... There's a lot going on right now in the heaven,y places .....and there are a lot of people who have died , there with Jesus .

    are you understanding man has a spirit, and also flesh? The flesh is condemned it can never inherit eternal,life . Our flesh rots and returns to the dust we came from, but our spirit which came from God at creation when he breathed it into mankind, each man then born has a spirit this spirit doesn't rot in the ground at death..."it returns to God who gave it "

    at the resurrection , we aren't going to receive those rotted dead bodies back, but new glorified bodies which our spirits will then inhabit , like we are now inhabiting These dying bodies , the flesh is only a tent for the spirit, the body does, the spirit in Christ goes to be with him, our bodies will be restored at the resurrection.


    hell is destroyed in the end , and all the people in hell are delivered up at the great judgement, hell is then itself cast into the lake of fire ...the second death. The people in hell are there now, the people in Christ are with him now . And he is at Gods right hand on the throne in the heavenly Jerusalem which comes down from heaven when things are renewed ....again in heaven before the throne there are also those who were slain for the word of God standing on the sea of glass before Gods throne ....and again a reference to the tabernacle in heaven where johns vision is occurring...


    “And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

    And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:”
    **Revelation‬ *15:2-3, 5‬ *KJV‬‬


    heaven is a real place , and John was taken into heaven and shown heavenly things .....it's why so many don't grasp revelation....
    In the posting that you answered, I said some things that you have ignored and left unchallenged. It is of course your right to ignore arguments, but usually we humans want to get to the bottom of things with the right arguments. So let me present them before you.
    • The Tabernacle (or Temple) is that building that houses the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies. The altar of brass (or sacrifice) is part of the OUTER COURT - not the Tabernacle. If you maintain that the altar of sacrifice (for that is where Christ died and where the martyrs died) is in heaven, you must show it. AND you must show WHY an altar of sacrifice is needed in heaven.
    • We are not allowed to interpret the Bible with our private thoughts. We must interpret the Bible with the Bible. So I ask; On what basis do you claim the 24 Elders to be MEN? I will answer this below myself.
    • I am not insulted if you say I am avoiding things. Just about any reader of my posting saw me make an educated argument. Of course I could be wrong. But I must ask, where was your counter argument? What is your appreciation of the Altar of Sacrifice?
    • It is true that John was caught up to heaven. But your argument that all he saw was in heaven negates just about all of the book of Revelation - FOR IT MOSTLY TAKES PLACE ON EARTH!
    • Revelation 15:5 tell us "AFTER THAT". That is, what happened in verses 1-4 was another event which was completed. Verse 5 starts a new event. The word "after" means the time after the other event. The "glassy sea" of Chapter 4 is the "fiery sea" of Chapter 15. The "sea" in Parable is a picture of Judgment. God covered the earth, and later Pharaoh's military might, with the sea. It is where the Lord sent the demons. It speaks of the "dead" - the nations. It speaks of our death with Christ on the cross (Rom.6). So judgement and death are meant by the "sea". And fire is because of the Covenant of the Rainbow. God promised not to JUDGE with water again. So he uses Fire. But the idea of judgement is transmitted by the word "sea". The same idea is transmitted by the "Lake" of "Fire". Be that as it may, you then missed the salient point. Those who stood against the Beast are "slain" (Rev.13:15). But now they "stand"! That is, they are resurrected! They are those of Revelation 20:4 who, " ... were beheaded ... and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." So these are the LIVING. We discuss the DEAD.

    Herewith, my explanation of the 24 Elders. Again, if we are obedient to 2nd Peter 1:20 and do not interpret scripture "privately", we must use the Bible to explain the 24 Elders. When Moses made the Tabernacle, he was commanded to make it according to the pattern of the heavenly Tabernacle (Ex.25:9, 40; Heb.8:5). When David briefed Solomon on the Temple, he had received a "pattern" from God (1st Chron.28:12). And David introduced "courses" whereby the Levites would serve in the Temple. He set forth 24 courses of two weeks in which each Levite served the Temple (2nd Chron.35:4 etc.). We see Zacharias serving his course in Luke 1:5, 8. Now, the Temple in Heaven, which was the pattern, has existed since God made the creature, for the idea of the Temple is (i) to protect God's holiness, and (ii) to create a holy place where God can meet with His creature. So the 24 "Elders" must have been made by God right at the beginning, long before men were made, to serve in the Temple of Heaven. They are most probably angels or Cherubim. They are called "Elders" because they were probably the first living creatures that God made. There are other indicators that you might wish to study. Why did they have crowns BEFORE Jesus? Men only get their crowns AFTER Jesus. Why were the 4 Beasts present? If you can find the Beasts elsewhere in the Bible you will be convinced that "sea of glass" is Judgement on earth - and the saints stand "ON it".

    There are arguments and then there are arguments. Go well bro.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Resting in Him
    Posts
    6,378

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Good observation, and I will deal with it presently. But you left it hanging in the air. Where did these resurrected go after that? It matters not a wit to our discussion because they are the LIVING. We discuss the DEAD.

    But how come they were resurrected out of time? After all, the Holy Spirit says that "those that are His" are resurrected "at his coming" (1st Cor.15:23), to which 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17 agrees. What was this special and select resurrection? It is this:

    Jehovah, Creator and Owner of this universe has absolute claim over all things. And in His generosity with man, He demands only the FIRST TENTH, or THE FIRSTFRUITS of men, animals and agriculture. To show men all the problems they have with God, God institutes an OFFERING for EACH ONE. We think that our only problems with God is sin ans sins, but the first three Offerings of Leviticus did NOT deal with sin, and one, the Meal Offering has no blood shed. The Burnt Offering, the Meal Offering and the Peace Offering do not address sin and sins. They address problems that man has with God outside of sin and Christ must be EQUALLY the Burnt Offering as He must be the Sin Offering. To explain all these takes books, so I will not even attempt it, but I want to pint out the "WAVE OFFERING". In Leviticus 23:10-11 it reads;

    10 "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
    11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it."


    • Now, that the resurrection is meant is told by the day - "the morrow after the Sabbath" - the day that Christ was raised.
    • And Christ is the "firstfruits of the dead" (1st Cor.15:20)
    • So Christ must, by decree of the Father Who claims the Firstfruits, be "waved before the Lord"
    • But the Offering that Christ fulfilled commands a "sheaf"

    Thus, on the morning that He was raised from the dead, our Lord Jesus said to the woman at the tomb, "don't touch me because I have not yet ascended to my Father". They may not touch Him because He is FIRST for God, being Firstfruits. That night our Lord Jesus said that they could "touch and handle" Him because He had been to the Father and the Father had had the joy of the Firstfruits.

    But it must be a "sheaf". One "ear of corn" is not enough. God wants not 1%, but 10%. So a company of Old Testament saints are allowed to be raised on the same day to form the "sheaf". However, it must be noted that our Lord Jesus not only is the Firstfruits, but He must have "preeminence in ALL things" (Col.1:18). So there is a small word in Matthew 27:53 that you quoted, that settles everything. The "sheaf", or company of saints that made up the "sheaf" were raised "AFTER" Christ's resurrection - probably an hour or so later. These saints are now alive. Where are they? The Bible does not say. But if we go by their fame, for they were known then to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, if they were on earth they would be famous men. But they are not. I can only surmise that the are in the third heaven waiting for the rapture, to join us in the air.
    I understand what you are explaining here ... and I do believe that all the "saints" who died before Christ are described here and that they also did rise after Christ and that they are in heaven ...

    However I also believe that believers will never die and that seems to mean that believers are not ever considered to be part of the DEAD. Now before I was a believer I was part of the DEAD ... I was dead in Adam ... now I am alive in Christ.

    John 11:26

    and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?


    I believe this. So I do not believe when this old body (tent) of mine "dies" that I DIE because He says "whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die." ... So I am not sure why you would consider that we are discussing the DEAD when we speak about believers in Christ whose old body (tent) has "died" ... yes I can probably think of some places that seem to point to this ... and well might be worth discussing. But John 11:26 is straight from Jesus' mouth and seems to be very clear.

    Also 1 Corinthians 15 is such a puzzle ... I have a lot of problems seeing premil and I mostly see something like postmil or amil ... and from what I am seeing you are premil ...
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Resting in Him
    Posts
    6,378

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I've often heard teachings of the "forming of Christ in us" . It's been something that I've briefly looked at and I thing it would be a wonderful subject for another thread. Or this one.

    I lean to the side of "Christ being fully formed" in us as a part of our sanctification, as the verses you just posted point out.. After all, no one is perfected this side of Glory but we are being made perfect.
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I agree--interesting subject! We do make changes ourselves, by determining to do the right things by habit. But as we follow the Lord, I think there is a maturing process in which we *grow* into the image of Christ. We never become better than Christ himself--we simply take on his characteristics more easily and with greater strength to do so. It becomes more natural, perhaps. But good question. I'm not even sure what the Scriptural answer might be?
    Well if we are what Christ is preparing ... then I think that is vitally important for us to make it a major consideration in what we do. I actually believe a lot of the work is done by Him but we must be willing participants. And well my "name" here ... "Christinme" which I've had for the over 15 years here should indicate that I consider it vitally important. I think the more we look at Christ (Scripture) and contemplate Christ and desire to follow Christ's teachings the more He is able to do in us. Actually after I was on here for a few years I had thought it might would have been better to have my name as "Christinus" ...
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northeast Alabama
    Posts
    5,030

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    Well if we are what Christ is preparing ... then I think that is vitally important for us to make it a major consideration in what we do. I actually believe a lot of the work is done by Him but we must be willing participants. And well my "name" here ... "Christinme" which I've had for the over 15 years here should indicate that I consider it vitally important. I think the more we look at Christ (Scripture) and contemplate Christ and desire to follow Christ's teachings the more He is able to do in us. Actually after I was on here for a few years I had thought it might would have been better to have my name as "Christinus" ...

    I get it.
    The whole "dying to self" think is easy to say, hard to do.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,227

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    Well if we are what Christ is preparing ... then I think that is vitally important for us to make it a major consideration in what we do. I actually believe a lot of the work is done by Him but we must be willing participants. And well my "name" here ... "Christinme" which I've had for the over 15 years here should indicate that I consider it vitally important. I think the more we look at Christ (Scripture) and contemplate Christ and desire to follow Christ's teachings the more He is able to do in us. Actually after I was on here for a few years I had thought it might would have been better to have my name as "Christinus" ...
    I don't know your gender, but your moniker sometimes hits me as "Christine." But then I notice that it's actually "Christ in me." And that's cool. It's the same with "Divad." It comes across as "Diva," although I know now that it was the reverse of "David." How the name initially comes across is much less important than what the name is actually expressed to mean.

    I do agree that "Christ in us" would be less focused on yourself. But that's not important. You serve as an example to others.

    I wouldn't change your name if your history in a group goes with the name. It makes a search easier. And it's important to maintain a history for purposes of establishing your credibility as an *experienced* debater and Christian. When I enter into a new group, unkown, I'm sometimes treated as ignorant, and have to go through a process of establishing who I am. You shouldn't have to change all that.

    As far as "many rooms," I've already expressed that my view of this has to do with our membership on the new earth. The earth is like a temple with many rooms. It is where God will dwell *with us,* as well as *within us.* I was only expressing an interest in what "Christ formed in us" means, Scripturally.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,970
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you— So did these Galatians not have the Holy Spirit?
    From the above text, we understand that Paul was referring to those in the Galatian church who remained in unbelief. Unless you assume that everyone in the church is born-again - which couldn't be further from the truth. This view is supported by what Paul said next:

    Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
    Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?


    Paul is in doubt of their faith in Christ because if they (mind you not all in the church were in unbelief) were born again and Christ-filled, Paul wouldn't have said he's in travail until Christ is formed in them.

    1 John 3:12 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is. If we shall be like Him ... does that not mean something like He is fully formed/manifest in us ???
    No sir.

    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    John was simply saying that when Jesus returns (as in the Second coming) we shall be like him (meaning we would have received our spiritual bodies at that time) and therefore able to see him as he truly is. Since his glorification and ascension, even though he continues to appear to the faithful, yet no one can describe his physical attributes because as sinful flesh, we cannot behold him. Those privileged to see his physical form can only say that his light is brighter than the sun. This is purposeful for, he blinds us with his glory that one cannot after the experience, be able to describe his face! So John is saying that when we, in turn, have been glorified through the resurrection or rapture, be able to see him.


    Now maybe you don't like the word "fully" that I used ... I get this idea from ...

    2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face [l]beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit. "from glory to glory" gives me the thought that it is a process ...
    Again, this passage doesn't say what you claim. Here, Paul used the analogy of one looking at an image in a mirror - though you see it, you can't touch it. It does not say that Christ is formed in stages in the heart of a believer.

    Romans 12:2 And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
    And here also we read about being transformed ... by the renewing of our mind ... again I see this as a process ... our mind is I think needs to be constantly renewed ...But well maybe the word "fully" should be removed from what I wrote ... although I think a maturing Christian ought to becoming more and more like Christ ...
    This is one of my favourite scriptures. KJV says "And be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind...". The passage is not saying that Christ is formed in stages in our lives but rather that, even though we live in this evil world where all sorts of things abominable to God are now acceptable, the believer should not conform to this mindset. This is achieved by renewing our mind and thoughts to things that please God, see Phil 4:8.

    Ephesians 4:3 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    We have this here also ... which seems to me to be not talking individually but collectively.

    I think there is a difference between being "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" and "Christ be formed in you" ...
    The above is verse 13, not 3 and it speaks about maturity in Christ.

    1. Till we all come in the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man = matured Christians, not those that still drink milk.
    2. Unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ = it takes a mature believer to understand the fullness of Christ.
    3. Maturity in Christ doesn't mean that Christ forms in stages in our heart to a certain point that makes us mature. On the contrary, Christ formes in us the minute we believe, then we go on to increase in knowledge of his word (scripture) and this leads to spiritual maturity.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Discussion Rooms 11 Questions / Revelations questions
    By vic66 in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: Jun 9th 2015, 12:03 AM
  2. Bibles Removed From Rooms of Sequestered Jurors
    By OneCandle in forum Breaking News
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: Jul 3rd 2013, 05:49 PM
  3. Replies: 30
    Last Post: Oct 7th 2012, 03:29 PM
  4. CHINA -- Prayer Rooms Destroyed, Believers Detained -- China Aid Association
    By L'Ange in forum Prayer for the Persecuted Church
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Oct 24th 2010, 02:36 PM
  5. Replies: 11
    Last Post: Oct 31st 2007, 07:15 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •