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Thread: John 14:2 Many Rooms

  1. #1

    John 14:2 Many Rooms

    John 14:2 My Father's Mansion has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I was going there to prepare a place for you?

    I heard a pastor talk about this scripture on the radio, he mentioned how "mansion" or even "house" was a bad translation from the original Greek, explaining it really means "abode". The abode where God lives under the NT covenant is us, we are the temple of God, therefore, we are the actual rooms Jesus was talking about.

    Hopefully I am clear in the above, is this something others believe as well? I have not heard of this belief before, maybe it is common knowledge. I just wanted to get other's view on it.

    Thanks!

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    John 14:2 My Father's Mansion has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I was going there to prepare a place for you?

    I heard a pastor talk about this scripture on the radio, he mentioned how "mansion" or even "house" was a bad translation from the original Greek, explaining it really means "abode". The abode where God lives under the NT covenant is us, we are the temple of God, therefore, we are the actual rooms Jesus was talking about.

    Hopefully I am clear in the above, is this something others believe as well? I have not heard of this belief before, maybe it is common knowledge. I just wanted to get other's view on it.

    Thanks!
    Yes this is and has always been my understanding ... we are who he is preparing (individually and collectively) ... I haven't heard anyone "teach" this but would be interested in looking where you got this from ... maybe pm me if you don't want to print it here ... I would appreciate it ...
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  3. #3

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    Yes this is and has always been my understanding ... we are who he is preparing (individually and collectively) ... I haven't heard anyone "teach" this but would be interested in looking where you got this from ... maybe pm me if you don't want to print it here ... I would appreciate it ...
    It made more sense to me than any other teachings I have heard. I heard the guy on XM radio, around 4-5, The Narrow Path, it Is on the religion channel. Can’t recall the guy’s name.

  4. #4

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    John 14:2 My Father's Mansion has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I was going there to prepare a place for you?

    I heard a pastor talk about this scripture on the radio, he mentioned how "mansion" or even "house" was a bad translation from the original Greek, explaining it really means "abode". The abode where God lives under the NT covenant is us, we are the temple of God, therefore, we are the actual rooms Jesus was talking about.

    Hopefully I am clear in the above, is this something others believe as well? I have not heard of this belief before, maybe it is common knowledge. I just wanted to get other's view on it.

    Thanks!
    For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Cor 5:1

    Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit 2 Cor 5:5


    I go to prepare a, dwelling place, for you:

    How was the dwelling place prepared?

    Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me? Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. John 16:20-22

    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18

    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:28

    For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 2 Cor 5:2

    And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Rom 8:23

    Everybody ready to move in?

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Yes, this is a question I'm interested in too. I've really been turned off by the ultra-materialism of those who claim we're heading for mansions in paradise, as if godly living is living luxuriously. To have too much is called "surfeit." To have an abundance is called "blessing."

    I too would like to know what the actual sense was in what Jesus was saying? My thought here is on something a little different. Many think and teach that Jesus has been preparing for our "mansion" for 2000 years now. My thought is that Jesus was talking about going to cross, to prepare a place for us forever.

    In other words, he redeemed us from sin so that we could enjoy eternal fellowship with him in some sort of home. Perhaps the "rooms" simply refer to our individual place or membership in his household?

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    John 14:2 My Father's Mansion has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I was going there to prepare a place for you?

    I heard a pastor talk about this scripture on the radio, he mentioned how "mansion" or even "house" was a bad translation from the original Greek, explaining it really means "abode". The abode where God lives under the NT covenant is us, we are the temple of God, therefore, we are the actual rooms Jesus was talking about.

    Hopefully I am clear in the above, is this something others believe as well? I have not heard of this belief before, maybe it is common knowledge. I just wanted to get other's view on it.

    Thanks!
    You, ar the Pastor you heard is correct. The context includes one more verse. John 14:1-3 says:

    1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    2 In my Father's house are many ABODES: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


    Verse 1. The Father's House is FIVE things in scripture. (i) The Tabernacle of the Wilderness, (ii) Solomon's Temple, (iii) Zerubbabel's Temple, (iv) Christ's Body, (v) the Church. It is NEVER heaven. Even if God dwells there it is never called His "House". It is His "Throne".
    Verse 2. The word "Mansions" is totally uncalled for. The word in the Greek text is the same one which the Translators rendered "abode" in verse 23. That means that in the New House of God, Christ's Body, which is the Church, there are many "abodes". These "abodes" are not for the Christian, but for God.
    Verse 2. "I go to prepare ... ". What prevented God dwelling in man? Sin. It is sin that caused God to protect His holiness and put a fiery sword to guard the Tree of Life so that Adam could not eat of it. Thus, Christ's "PREPARATION" is the setting aside of sin as the hindrance to God coming into man.
    Verse 3 confirms it. Our Lord says that He prepares a place for us believers/disciples, so that a future date we may be (future tense) "to be where He IS (present tense)" So all we have to do is find out where our Lord Jesus was at that moment. And He tells us Himself in 14:10-11;

    10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake."


    Verse 3. "I GO ...", and "I will COME AGAIN". When did our Lord GO and COME again after "preparing" by putting sin away. He WENT to the cross, He WENT to death, He WENT to Hades for three days, He WENT to the Father after telling the women at the tomb that He had not yet been to His Father, and that night, in John 20:22, He CAME to them (i) in the upper room, and He CAME to them (ii) by breathing Himself as the Holy Spirit INTO their human spirits.

    The Book of John is different to the three synoptic gospels. It is not a history of Jesus. It is the Book that completes Genesis Chapters 2 and 3 where man is commanded to eat of the Tree of Life, but doesn't. The introductory Chapter of John is SEVEN things which constitute BETHEL - "the House of God". We have (i) the Word, (ii) the Word being incarnated, (iii) the Lamb for sins put away, (iv) The Holy Spirit for POWER in service to build, (v) Nathan, which means "gift of God", (vi) Peter - which means "a stone" for building the House of God and "BETHEL" the place of stones where a ladder is set on earth and angels FIRST ascend then DESCEND on it. The whole Book of John is a revelation of how God gets INTO MAN for an ABODE - the thing He wanted in Eden before the tree of Life.

    Thus, John 14 is simply the process of of Christ building the House of God. Christ IS (present tense) IN the Father and the Father IN Him. He goes to His death and resurrection to set aside sins as the Lamb of God, and once God has confirmed, by resurrection, that all sin is put away, Christ returns and breathes Himself in the Person of the Holy Spirit INTO His disciples - making then abodes of God.

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    John 14:2 My Father's Mansion has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I was going there to prepare a place for you?

    I heard a pastor talk about this scripture on the radio, he mentioned how "mansion" or even "house" was a bad translation from the original Greek, explaining it really means "abode". The abode where God lives under the NT covenant is us, we are the temple of God, therefore, we are the actual rooms Jesus was talking about.

    Hopefully I am clear in the above, is this something others believe as well? I have not heard of this belief before, maybe it is common knowledge. I just wanted to get other's view on it.

    Thanks!
    Jesus is responding to and comforting Peter. He had just told Peter that Peter would could not follow Him to where He was going. It is written as a chiasm. After Jesus tells Peter that he cannot follwo, Peter responds by saying he would lay down his life for Jesus. Then Jesus tells Peter that Peter will deny Him. After that, Jesus tells Peter to not let His heart be troubled but instead to believe in Jesus.

    John 13:36 Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered, "Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later." 37 Peter said to Him, "Lord, why can I not follow You right now? I will lay down my life for You." 38 Jesus answered, "Will you lay down your life for Me? Truly, truly, I say to you, a rooster will not crow until you deny Me three times.
    John 14:1 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 "And you know the way where I am going." 5 Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" 6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

    A. Peter asks Jesus "Where are you going"?
    B. Peter says he will lay down his life for Jesus.
    C. Jesus says Peter will deny Him.
    X. Jesus tells Peter to not be troubled but instead, to believe in Jesus.
    C. Jesus says there are many dwelling places in the Father's house, and that Jesus is going to prepare a place for Peter. i.e. Jesus will lay down His life for Peter.
    B. Jesus says "I will come again and receive you to myself that where I am, there you may be also". i.e. Jesus enables Peter to follow Him.
    A. Jesus declares, "you know where I am going".

    The emphasis is on vs. 1 of John 14 "You believe in God, believe also in Me".

    That's what Chiasms were for... the center shows the emphasis. The center is what the author wanted to emphasize. They didn't have bold texting back in the day so they used chiasms instead.

    The point? We are God's house and there are many. But not only did God provide for Himself a place, but He has also provided us a dwelling place in Himself. He is in us and we are in Him. This is done through faith in Christ and Christ work on the cross.

    God bless!
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  8. #8

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Jesus is responding to and comforting Peter. He had just told Peter that Peter would could not follow Him to where He was going. It is written as a chiasm. After Jesus tells Peter that he cannot follwo, Peter responds by saying he would lay down his life for Jesus. Then Jesus tells Peter that Peter will deny Him. After that, Jesus tells Peter to not let His heart be troubled but instead to believe in Jesus.

    John 13:36 Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered, "Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later." 37 Peter said to Him, "Lord, why can I not follow You right now? I will lay down my life for You." 38 Jesus answered, "Will you lay down your life for Me? Truly, truly, I say to you, a rooster will not crow until you deny Me three times.
    John 14:1 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 "And you know the way where I am going." 5 Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" 6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

    A. Peter asks Jesus "Where are you going"?
    B. Peter says he will lay down his life for Jesus.
    C. Jesus says Peter will deny Him.
    X. Jesus tells Peter to not be troubled but instead, to believe in Jesus.
    C. Jesus says there are many dwelling places in the Father's house, and that Jesus is going to prepare a place for Peter. i.e. Jesus will lay down His life for Peter.
    B. Jesus says "I will come again and receive you to myself that where I am, there you may be also". i.e. Jesus enables Peter to follow Him.
    A. Jesus declares, "you know where I am going".

    The emphasis is on vs. 1 of John 14 "You believe in God, believe also in Me".

    That's what Chiasms were for... the center shows the emphasis. The center is what the author wanted to emphasize. They didn't have bold texting back in the day so they used chiasms instead.

    The point? We are God's house and there are many. But not only did God provide for Himself a place, but He has also provided us a dwelling place in Himself. He is in us and we are in Him. This is done through faith in Christ and Christ work on the cross.

    God bless!
    I was not able to hear the entire sermon, the pastor was going to touch on what the House was, but I thought maybe it was the Body of Christ and in it are many rooms - which are the believers.

    Scripture doesn't say there are many houses, right? Just many dwelling places, or rooms.

    Could House possibly be the Body of Christ?

  9. #9
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
    Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


    Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
    Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.


    2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
    2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
    2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


    If scripture interprets scripture then I submit:

    2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

    Here our human body is likened to a "house" and our spiritual body of the resurrection as a "building of God" which originates from heaven.


    1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

    Again, something awaits us in heaven. Is it not the new glorified body given in a heavenly resurrection?



    Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

    Though Jesus was a carpenter's son, I do not believe he is literally speaking of building a house in heaven for us but this being a reference to what 2 Corinthians 5:1 touches upon, a new body.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  10. #10

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    John 14:2 My Father's Mansion has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I was going there to prepare a place for you?

    I heard a pastor talk about this scripture on the radio, he mentioned how "mansion" or even "house" was a bad translation from the original Greek, explaining it really means "abode". The abode where God lives under the NT covenant is us, we are the temple of God, therefore, we are the actual rooms Jesus was talking about.

    Hopefully I am clear in the above, is this something others believe as well? I have not heard of this belief before, maybe it is common knowledge. I just wanted to get other's view on it.

    Thanks!
    he's talking about his return , he's going to prepare a place for them and telling them he will return and take them home ....he's assuring them there's plenty of room for everyone who wills to come. A really great thing to consider with Jesus doctrine , is he speaks very differently than others in the bible ,

    remember when he said in John chapter six " if anyone will not eat my flesh and drink my blood , he has no part with me" ....when many of his followers heard this it turned them away from following him, they misunderstood the right perception of his words...he then says to those who remain his disciples after many turn away from following him thinking he was teaching canabalism....he tells them " are you offended by this too? It is the spirit that quickens ....The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. ....

    then he asks Them will you turn away also? Peter replies " Lord where else would we go you have the words of eternal life and we know and believe that you are the Christ , the son of God"

    Jesus isn't teaching people to eat human flesh and blood ....he's teaching us to make him, through his words our source of life , like food and water for our spirit. We are to " feed on the bread of life which came from heaven " who is Jesus...and drink the water he the Christ gives us...which leads to eternal life...In chapter four.......he doesn't give literal water but the spirit that quickens us which he explains in John 7: 37-39 the water he gives is the spirit which since pentocaust comes to those who repent and believe the gospel ....the words he speaks are spirit , and life the spirit quickens us..and eternal life to those who believe...

    another example is when he teaches of looking at others with lust in our heart, he says " if your eye offends gouge it out, if your hand offends cut it off it's better to lose a part of the flesh ....than end up in he'll because of lust"


    he's not saying cut your hand off and gouge out your eyes then you'll be saved from lust....he's talking about the lust we hide in our own private thoughts and intents , our fantasies our wandering eye that lusts and wants to follow after the lust. We have to lose that part of the " flesh " ...we learn from Paul about the nature and deeds of the flesh in Galatians 5 and Ephesians 5 how something of the flesh like lust, is in conflict with the things of the spirit like purity in our minds and hearts...it's a conflict between good and evil within mankind salvation is to follow the ugh Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    John 14:2 My Father's Mansion has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I was going there to prepare a place for you?

    I heard a pastor talk about this scripture on the radio, he mentioned how "mansion" or even "house" was a bad translation from the original Greek, explaining it really means "abode". The abode where God lives under the NT covenant is us, we are the temple of God, therefore, we are the actual rooms Jesus was talking about.

    Hopefully I am clear in the above, is this something others believe as well? I have not heard of this belief before, maybe it is common knowledge. I just wanted to get other's view on it.

    Thanks!
    he's talking about his return , he's going to prepare a place for them and telling them he will return and take them home ....he's assuring them there's plenty of room for everyone who wills to come. A really great thing to consider with Jesus doctrine , is he speaks very differently than others in the bible ,

    remember when he said in John chapter six " if anyone will not eat my flesh and drink my blood , he has no part with me" ....when many of his followers heard this it turned them away from following him, they misunderstood the right perception of his words...he then says to those who remain his disciples after many turn away from following him thinking he was teaching canabalism....he tells them " are you offended by this too? It is the spirit that quickens ....The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. ....

    then he asks Them will you turn away also? Peter replies " Lord where else would we go you have the words of eternal life and we know and believe that you are the Christ , the son of God"

    Jesus isn't teaching people to eat human flesh and blood ....he's teaching us to make him, through his words our source of life , like food and water for our spirit. We are to " feed on the bread of life which came from heaven " who is Jesus...and drink the water he the Christ gives us...which leads to eternal life...In chapter four.......he doesn't give literal water but the spirit that quickens us which he explains in John 7: 37-39 the water he gives is the spirit which since pentocaust comes to those who repent and believe the gospel ....the words he speaks are spirit , and life the spirit quickens us..and eternal life to those who believe...

    another example is when he teaches of looking at others with lust in our heart, he says " if your eye offends gouge it out, if your hand offends cut it off it's better to lose a part of the flesh ....than end up in he'll because of lust"


    he's not saying cut your hand off and gouge out your eyes then you'll be saved from lust....he's talking about the lust we hide in our own private thoughts and intents , our fantasies our wandering eye that lusts and wants to follow after the lust. We have to lose that part of the " flesh " ...we learn from Paul about the nature and deeds of the flesh in Galatians 5 and Ephesians 5 how something of the flesh like lust, is in conflict with the things of the spirit like purity in our minds and hearts...it's a conflict between good and evil within mankind salvation is to follow the ugh Christ

  11. #11
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    I'm surprised that this thread did not generate more enthusiasm. The arguments for John 14 as speaking of the House of God and not heaven has wide implications. For instance, thousands of priests, pastors and lay preachers take the lead at funerals and stand at untold gravesides and use this scripture to bolster the belief that the deceased is "gone home to heaven". If John 14 means the Church - the House of God, and the many "abodes" are us, the Christians, then there is a massively wide-spread duping of the bereaved.

    Or is there an uneasy feeling growing among students of the bible that heaven isn't our destination and that the gospel of John reveals a far deeper and fundamental truth that it is God Who designed man as a Vessel and wants to get into man. There is a legend that when danger approaches, an Ostrich buries his head in the sand so that the danger doesn't bother him. Are the scores of Christians who read this thread not willing to join in and voice their opinions? If the matter of John 14 is the same as the rest of the Book of John - namely, the New and Living House of God with each of us members and abodes, then ten thousand Pastors are duping those put in their care.

    Here's my opinion. The doctrine of going to heaven as our eternal destination is trash. There is not a single verse that supports it. True, there is the rapture, but if we are to be with the Lord after the Rapture, why, He is coming back to earth - and His saints with Him. God made man "a little lower than the angels", but man is exquisitely made - made to hold and host the very God of the universe. No other creature has this privilege. Is this not so much higher than a pagan myth about spending eternity walking up and down a golden street and slapping everybody who made it on the back. (Oops! How can the dead man in heaven have a back when his body lies rotting on the earth?). God's original plan with man is outlined in Genesis 1:26-28. We are made from the earth, nourished by the earth for ruling the earth. And then, on top of this, "... we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us" (2nd Corinthians 4:7). God has not, and will not, change His course. His councils are immutable. John reveals BETHEL, not heaven!

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I'm surprised that this thread did not generate more enthusiasm. The arguments for John 14 as speaking of the House of God and not heaven has wide implications. For instance, thousands of priests, pastors and lay preachers take the lead at funerals and stand at untold gravesides and use this scripture to bolster the belief that the deceased is "gone home to heaven". If John 14 means the Church - the House of God, and the many "abodes" are us, the Christians, then there is a massively wide-spread duping of the bereaved.

    Or is there an uneasy feeling growing among students of the bible that heaven isn't our destination and that the gospel of John reveals a far deeper and fundamental truth that it is God Who designed man as a Vessel and wants to get into man. There is a legend that when danger approaches, an Ostrich buries his head in the sand so that the danger doesn't bother him. Are the scores of Christians who read this thread not willing to join in and voice their opinions? If the matter of John 14 is the same as the rest of the Book of John - namely, the New and Living House of God with each of us members and abodes, then ten thousand Pastors are duping those put in their care.

    Here's my opinion. The doctrine of going to heaven as our eternal destination is trash. There is not a single verse that supports it. True, there is the rapture, but if we are to be with the Lord after the Rapture, why, He is coming back to earth - and His saints with Him. God made man "a little lower than the angels", but man is exquisitely made - made to hold and host the very God of the universe. No other creature has this privilege. Is this not so much higher than a pagan myth about spending eternity walking up and down a golden street and slapping everybody who made it on the back. (Oops! How can the dead man in heaven have a back when his body lies rotting on the earth?). God's original plan with man is outlined in Genesis 1:26-28. We are made from the earth, nourished by the earth for ruling the earth. And then, on top of this, "... we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us" (2nd Corinthians 4:7). God has not, and will not, change His course. His councils are immutable. John reveals BETHEL, not heaven!
    I agree that "we're not going to heaven" in the literal sense. Our eternal place is with the Lord, who is in heaven. But primarily, our "home" is the earth, which is soon to be "made new."

    When Jesus spoke of our eternal home, he may not have been speaking of *us* our his home, but rather, of our place on earth. Any thoughts on this?

  13. #13

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I'm surprised that this thread did not generate more enthusiasm. The arguments for John 14 as speaking of the House of God and not heaven has wide implications. For instance, thousands of priests, pastors and lay preachers take the lead at funerals and stand at untold gravesides and use this scripture to bolster the belief that the deceased is "gone home to heaven". If John 14 means the Church - the House of God, and the many "abodes" are us, the Christians, then there is a massively wide-spread duping of the bereaved.

    Or is there an uneasy feeling growing among students of the bible that heaven isn't our destination and that the gospel of John reveals a far deeper and fundamental truth that it is God Who designed man as a Vessel and wants to get into man. There is a legend that when danger approaches, an Ostrich buries his head in the sand so that the danger doesn't bother him. Are the scores of Christians who read this thread not willing to join in and voice their opinions? If the matter of John 14 is the same as the rest of the Book of John - namely, the New and Living House of God with each of us members and abodes, then ten thousand Pastors are duping those put in their care.

    Here's my opinion. The doctrine of going to heaven as our eternal destination is trash. There is not a single verse that supports it. True, there is the rapture, but if we are to be with the Lord after the Rapture, why, He is coming back to earth - and His saints with Him. God made man "a little lower than the angels", but man is exquisitely made - made to hold and host the very God of the universe. No other creature has this privilege. Is this not so much higher than a pagan myth about spending eternity walking up and down a golden street and slapping everybody who made it on the back. (Oops! How can the dead man in heaven have a back when his body lies rotting on the earth?). God's original plan with man is outlined in Genesis 1:26-28. We are made from the earth, nourished by the earth for ruling the earth. And then, on top of this, "... we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us" (2nd Corinthians 4:7). God has not, and will not, change His course. His councils are immutable. John reveals BETHEL, not heaven!
    Jesus is coming back to earth and His Saints with Him, where are those Saints now? If they come back with Him, aren’t they with Him now?

  14. #14

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I agree that "we're not going to heaven" in the literal sense. Our eternal place is with the Lord, who is in heaven. But primarily, our "home" is the earth, which is soon to be "made new."

    When Jesus spoke of our eternal home, he may not have been speaking of *us* our his home, but rather, of our place on earth. Any thoughts on this?

    Wouldn’t this make it both? We know for a fact we are God’s dwelling place now. In the future, why would this change as He will continue to indwell us but we will also see Him.

  15. #15
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I agree that "we're not going to heaven" in the literal sense. Our eternal place is with the Lord, who is in heaven. But primarily, our "home" is the earth, which is soon to be "made new."

    When Jesus spoke of our eternal home, he may not have been speaking of *us* our his home, but rather, of our place on earth. Any thoughts on this?
    You might be shocked to know that the phrase "eternal home" and "our home" never appear in scripture. But I think I know what you're getting at. But please, if I answer incorrectly or off the track, please forgive me.

    According to Romans 1:18-21 the creation shows the glory and power of God. The creation is divided into the inanimate and the animated. Of the animated, we have a progression in the display of God's glory. We have the ecosystem, then animals, then angels, then man and then the Man Jesus. I put men higher than angels not because of POWER but because they are created in the image and likeness of God. And Christ, the Peak of creation is He, "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Hebrews 1:3). This auspicious and august title is not given to an angel, but a Man - the Man who allowed His blood to be shed by men.

    If there is another such earth as ours or not I cannot tell, but as far as the Bible tells, this beautiful earth and its order is the place of God's physical creation where He chose to put man and the Man Jesus. It is also the place where He chose to have His ABODE. Contrary to popular doctrine, heaven is NOT God's ABODE. He does live there but both Isaiah 66:1 and Acts 7:49 CONTRAST heaven to His HOUSE. They read severally:
    1 "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?"
    49 "Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?"

    So the desire of God revealed in this one sentence is:
    1. That the rules that apply in heaven should govern earth, and so we have our Lord Jesus' main teaching was about the Kingdom (OUT) of Heaven
    2. Footstool means that it is totally subject to God, and so we have our Lord teaching primarily, "the Kingdom of God"
    3. God's House or ABODE is ON EARTH, first as a wooden building with a Veil, and lastly a BODY of FLESH - the Body of Jesus
    4. God's "Rest" must be defined by the first "Rest". God rested when; (i) the creation was back in order in six days, (ii) man was in place, (iii) this man could meet with God and have fellowship in a Garden of pleasure, (iv) this man could subdue and rule the earth that had been restored to pristine condition, and (v) that this man would eat of the Tree of God's nature, be permeated and saturated with God's nature and EXHIBIT God's presence in him on earth.

    God never had any intention of taking man off the earth. God's full plan and investment with man and the earth was wrapped up in Eden. If Adam had obeyed God and eaten of the Tree of Life, God would have had His "REST" - His plan being consummated. The Rapture is not God's plan for men. It is a contingency plan to SAVE those who have put their trust in Christ from His wrath on the whole earth. And as soon as that wrath is abated and the antagonists subjected, God sets up His ABODE on earth again by causing the saints - the House of God (1st Tim.3:15) - to return with Christ and rule cities on earth.

    The center of God's plan is the earth. The achiever of God's Plan is the MAN Jesus. The EXTENSION and ENLARGEMENT of Christ is the Church. Man's HOUSE, or HOME is NOT the center of things. God's image, God's likeness, God's display and God's HOUSE is the plan and the center of the Bible.

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