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Thread: John 14:2 Many Rooms

  1. #46

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    “And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:”
    **Revelation‬ *6:9‬ *KJV‬‬


    seems some who were slain formGods word appear in heaven here......

  2. #47
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    actually there are some verses that you may have not considered . Remember man is two,parts flesh and spirit. We understand the flesh is condemned to death it's why we all die , sin begats death. For instance where is Jesus promising the thief on the cross " this day you will be with me in paradise " where is he referring to? I also don't think " heaven " is the end destination but rather the new earth . BUT what about until his return? We know the souls of the slain saints are in heaven under the altar , we know the saints return from heaven following Jesus. just a few things to consider .....finally hell is not the end either hell is current . For instance Jesus tells a story about Lazarus the beggar and a rich man. ....when the rich man dies he is in hell and looks up and sees Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, Lazarus and the Rich man have both passed away and one is in hell the other is somewhere else , somewhere good , comforting . Remember this is not a reference to after all has been done , but life on earth is still occurring also in his story. the rich man in hell asks for someone to be sent to his family , so they can be warned and not come to the place he is being tormeneted....there is a perpetual place where those who die in the flesh , where thier spirit goes . Of course we know " dust returned to dust as it was( the flesh) and the spirit returns to God who gave it" so .....where does someone's spirit go? Until he returns and all things are restored ?I would say there are a lot of believers waiting with Jesus ....
    Thank you for your answer. I made two statements bold to answer specifically, and the rest I will answer generally.

    (1) There is not a single bit of evidence that the saints under the altar are in heaven. Rather, the evidence points to the earth. When Moses made the Tabernacle, he was commanded to follow the pattern of the heavenly Tabernacle. In this Tabernacle is an alter - the GOLDEN altar of INCENSE. But the altar of SACRIFICE is OUTSIDE the Tabernacle and was Acacia wood overlaid with BRASS. There is no BRASS altar in heaven because it is not needed. There is no salvation for angels. It was upon this altar of BRASS that SACRIFICES were made. Even our Lord Jesus must carry His blood to heaven to present it before His Father (Heb.9:11-14).

    The commandment was that this altar may not be upon steps, "lest a man's nakedness be seen" (Ex.20:26). Our Lord Jesus was sacrificed ON EARTH. The EARTH received His blood. The EARTH is the altar of sacrifice. The martyrs of Revelation 6:9 shed their blood ON EARTH. The EARTH received their blood. The GOLDEN altar NEVER has blood on it. Thus, if the martyrs are under the altar they are under the earth. This is confirmed by 2nd Corinthians 5:1-3. Dead men are naked. If the altar of Revelation 6:9 were lifted, their "nakedness would be seen". All indications point to the martyrs of Revelation 6:9 as being UNDER THE EARTH.

    (2) It is true that the saints return from the sky with our Lord Jesus. Jude recorded that Enoch prophesied that the Lord would return with the saints (Jude 1:14). Zechariah 14:5 confirms this. But the Bible NEVER has a dead man in heaven EVER. So the question is, HOW, or, IN WHAT WAY could the saints come with the Lord Jesus from the sky when they are all in Hades UNDER THE EARTH? The following verses of 1st Thessalonians 4 show HOW. The dead are RAISED to the surface of the earth where they meet the living. The living are then changed to have the same caliber of BODY that the RAISED saints have (1st Cor.15:51-54), AND TOGETHER are caught up to meet the Lord Who is on His journey from the right hand of the Father in the highest heaven.

    Right you are about Lazarus and the rich man. But the word is really not HELL. That is a Roman Catholic concept from which our very eminent translators suffered from in 1611. The word in the original Greek is HADES. So all you have said about "hell" is actually about HADES. If HADES is correct then dead men, including Abraham, are in Hades. Besides there being not a single bit of evidence that dead men have moved out of Hades, David is still in Hades 50 days after Christ's resurrection in Acts 2. The dead believers only RISE at the coming of Christ. And right you are about HADES not being the final place. Christians are resurrected at Christ's coming (1st Cor.15:23). Israel is resurrected after the Great Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2), and 1,000 years later HADES gives up the "rest of the dead" (Rev.20:5, 13).

    Finally, ALL the dead saints are with Jesus (Phil.1:23). But consider this. Our Lord Jesus is RISEN. Acts Chapter 2 says that He is OUT OF HADES, and Ephesians 4:9-10 puts Him BODILY at the right hand of God in heaven. Now, when a saint dies we bury or cremate him/her. So we both agree that the saint is NOT BODILY with Jesus. He couldn't be if his/her body is still on the earth. His/her spirit cannot be meant because a man is a SOUL throughout the Bible (Gen.2:7, 12:5, 46:15, 17; Act.7:14, 27:37 and many more). God and angels are spirits, but man is a SOUL. So when our Lord died Matthew 12:40 says that He went to the heart of the earth. The criminal who called upon Him went their too - by default, because our Lord said he would be WITH HIM. So Philippians 1:23, by process of elimination, must mean that our Lord Jesus is WITH the dead saints IN SOUL. But how then if His SOUL is joined to His BODY in resurrection and this is in heaven??? Easy. Our Lord Jesus, having been glorified, is EMBODIED in the Spirit (otherwise He could not live in us, and as the SPIRIT of John 7:39, He can be at once (i) in heaven, (ii) on earth in the living saints, and (iii) IN HADES. And so Psalm 139:8 can truthfully say; "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in SHEOL, behold, thou art there." "Sheol" is the Hebrew counterpart of HADES in the Greek.

    The dead saint IS with the Lord IN HADES because the Lord, having passed through the process of human life, death, and resurrection is COMPLETE in that Spirit promised in John 7:39. Thus, "Abraham's Bosom" BECAME "Paradise", and is still "Paradise when Paul visited it during His 14 year training (2nd Cor.12; Gal.1:15 - 2:3).

    Again, all the evidence points to dead men, especially and including Christians, as being in HADES till the Second Coming of our Lord.

  3. #48
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    “And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:”
    **Revelation‬ *6:9‬ *KJV‬‬


    seems some who were slain formGods word appear in heaven here......
    May I answer your last two postings with my posting #47? Thank you.

    You will, I'm sure, admit that what ever you have been taught about Lazarus and the rich man, and the martyrs of Revelation 6:9, there isn't actually any statement, even implied, that heaven is meant. The contrary is the case. Consider the grammar of Luke 16:27-31. In verse 27 it is, "Then he (the rich man) said, I pray thee (Abraham) therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him (LAZARUS) to my father's house: The rich man responds to Abraham's pointer in verse 30, "And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent." Who did he mean? He meant LAZARUS! And he says TWICE, once in this verses and once in verse 31, that Lazarus was AMONG THE DEAD. And in verse 31 he says Lazarus would have to RISE from the dead. How could Lazarus RISE to the rich man's family if he was in heaven?

  4. #49

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    For me your answer to the question was a bit obscure. It's probably my fault. But I would like to highlight the salient points of these verses.
    • Abraham WAS (past tense) counted as righteous because of his faith. That was about 2,000 years before Christ. When our Lord Jesus came and told the narrative of Lazarus and the rich man, Abraham was still in Hades (Luke 16)
    • David, having written much about Christ in the Psalms some 1,000 years before Christ came, must be a believer. David is raised a king in the Millennium (Jer.30:9; Ezek.37:24; Hos.3:5). He must be born again to enter the Kingdom. In Acts 2 we learn that fifty days after our Lord rose from the dead, that David was still in Hades (vs.29, 34)
    • The Dead will RISE at the Coming of Christ (1st Cor.15.23)
    • The dead will RISE at the Coming of Christ (1st Thess.4:16-17)
    • Christ went to Hades and then ROSE. He said that He had not yet been to His Father AFTER HE ROSE
    • Christ said He would RAISE believers AT the "last day"
    • Our Lord Jesus sad that in order to build His Church HADES must be overcome (Matt.16:18). But the Church is built with BODIES (1st Cor.6:15). Therefore, a Christian only RISES when his soul escapes from HADES. If the Christians who have died still have their BODIES in their graves today, they are still in Hades.
    • There is not a single case of a dead man going to heaven in the whole Bible. Christ Himself, Who has preeminence in ALL things, did not go to His Father UNTIL He was alive again in His BODY

    The evidence is overwhelming. NO DEAD MEN, not even the dead Man Jesus, went to heaven until He had his BODY back from the dead and was ALIVE. Enoch and Elijah both are LIVING. Paul and John were translated to heaven while they were ALIVE. The Rapture takes place AFTER the resurrection. And so on.
    We basically agree. The soul David is still in Hades and his flesh did see corruption. David is dead until he is raised from the dead. Ditto all. All who will inherit the kingdom of God are dead in Christ.

    for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor 5:21

    Did that in bold require the death and resurrection of Jesus born of the virgin Mary, the Christ, the Son of the living God, the seed of Abraham? Even for Abraham to become the righteousness of God?

    Was Jesus, the seed of Abraham, the faith of Abraham, the one God called to believe? God called according to purpose, shall we say? Was Abraham called for the very purpose of Christ being his seed? Called for the purpose of Christ coming in the flesh to be obedient unto death even the death of the cross. Is the death of Christ the faith that was revealed by which we could be mage righteous?

    Gal 3:24,25 And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous,
    Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

  5. #50
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    We basically agree. The soul David is still in Hades and his flesh did see corruption.
    Is David the rich man Christ said went to Hades?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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