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Thread: John 14:2 Many Rooms

  1. #76
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    Well I am thinking the final "receive you to Myself" is when Christ is fully formed in us ... and that this is the inheritance ... the holy spirit is just the "down payment" ...

    Ephisians 1:13-14

    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
    There's no such thing as a "down payment". Jesus promised the disciples before his death that he will not leave them comfortless, but will send the Comforter to abide with them forever (John 14:16). This promise was redeemed at Pentecost, that's what Eph 1:13 affirmed. Receive you unto myself IMO, will be fulfilled when Jesus welcomes the risen/raptured saints in the air to remain with him forever (1 Thess 4:17).

    Christ does not "fully form in us" rather we grow to mature in him.

  2. #77
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Nay my esteemed brother. You have missed the vital point.

    What says John 14:10-11;

    10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake."


    If you can understand this or not (for it exceeds the boundaries of the human intellect) the fact is that Christ is IN the Father and the Father is IN Christ. And what shall it be then for the Christians? Within the same context our Lord Jesus says in verses 16-23:-

    16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever
    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you".


    The Holy Spirit (an-OTHER) will be with us and IN us

    18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
    19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
    20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."


    The Lord Jesus, "in that same day" will be with us and IN us, AND we will be IN Him

    23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

    The Father and the Son will be IN the saints. The saint is an ABODE.

    Not only will will we the Father, Son and Spirit be IN US, BUT we will be in THEM - whether it boggles the mind or not.

    The Gospel of John is about the Father House. A House is for DWELLING IN. Ephesians 2:18-22 says it beautifully;

    18 "For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple IN the Lord:
    22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."
    I stated the views you expressed above in post #36, so I agree. However, I also observed that as is normal with Jesus, John 14:3 is not limited to the Trinity coming in, to abode in us.

    The subtext in John 14:3b "receive you unto myself" is worthy of diligent examination. I explained my interpretation in details in post #61. The Holy Spirit that indwells us doesn't receive us unto himself. Therefore, this speaks of Jesus Christ receiving us at a separate time unconnected with the coming in to indwell our hearts. Further "that where I am, there ye may be also" is in conjunction with receiving us unto himself.

    In conclusion, I am confident that John 14:3 speaks of a dual prophecy - one fulfilled at Pentecost and the other, Christ coming to receive us during the resurrection/rapture in the eschaton.

  3. #78

    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post

    Christ does not "fully form in us" rather we grow to mature in him.
    Galatians 4:19 19 My children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you,

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post

    Christ does not "fully form in us" rather we grow to mature in him.
    Galatians 4:19 19 My children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you,

  4. #79
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    There's no such thing as a "down payment". Jesus promised the disciples before his death that he will not leave them comfortless, but will send the Comforter to abide with them forever (John 14:16). This promise was redeemed at Pentecost, that's what Eph 1:13 affirmed.
    I am going to deal with this post first then I will go back to the post before this one where you address another one of my posts ...

    So let me see if I am correctly understanding you ... so you don't like the phrase "down payment" ... or seems even more you think there is no such thing. So let me look at the verses again ...

    Ephisians 1:13-14

    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


    So what does "the earnest of our inheritance" mean and what does it apply to? I think "the earnest of our inheritance" refers to "sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" ... but I don't think "the earnest of our inheritance" means just "our inheritance". I don't think it is saying being sealed with the Holy Spirit is our inheritance. Yes in John 14:16 they were promised the Holy Spirit and they received it at Pentecost ... but I don't see these verses to be just restating that. I don't see it saying that the Holy Spirit is our inheritance ... it says the Holy Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance ... so what does "the earnest" mean ... can we just throw those words out ... I will wait for you to help me out here ...

    And what does the "until the redemption of the purchased possession" mean and what does it apply to? I am so confused ... seems you are saying that this "redemption" spoken of here refers to them receiving the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. You wrote "This promise was redeemed at Pentecost" ... I don't understand how this verse is speaking of a promise redeemed ... is this promise of the Spirit then the "purchased possession" ... as I am seeing it we are the purchased possession and as far as I know it is us who are redeemed ... and we still have some redemption left to happen and it is spoken about here:

    Romans 8:23

    And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


    So I think that the redemption spoken of in Ephesians 1:14 is the same redemption spoken of in Romans 8:23. And I think that Ephesians 1:13-14 is saying that having been sealed with the Holy Spirit which is the earnest/guarantee/down payment of our inheritance which also has future parts still to come ... like the redemption of our body. Now that is not to say that I think the Holy Spirit isn't part of our inheritance ... but it isn't the totality of what we shall inherit ...


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Receive you unto myself IMO, will be fulfilled when Jesus welcomes the risen/raptured saints in the air to remain with him forever (1 Thess 4:17).
    I agree that the "Receive you unto myself" in John 14:3 corresponds with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 ...

    AND also corresponds to when this happens

    1 John 3:12 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

    And also corresponds to when this happens

    Ephesians 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

    And I could post some more verses that I think correspond to the same time ... but I think some would get us into premil/postmil/amil "discussions/disagreements" ... and I don't think that would be productive at this time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Christ does not "fully form in us" rather we grow to mature in him.
    When I address the other post I am going to talk more about this ... and I do agree that we grow to mature in Him ... however I don't think that is contrary to the concept of "until Christ is fully formed in us" ... we mature in Him AND He is formed in us ... both things can be true ... we are in Christ and Christ is in us ... that is going to be hard to demonstrate with Russian nesting dolls
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    From the above text, we understand that Paul was referring to those in the Galatian church who remained in unbelief. Unless you assume that everyone in the church is born-again - which couldn't be further from the truth. This view is supported by what Paul said next:

    Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
    Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?


    Paul is in doubt of their faith in Christ because if they (mind you not all in the church were in unbelief) were born again and Christ-filled, Paul wouldn't have said he's in travail until Christ is formed in them.
    I have just read through the whole letter ... What I am seeing is that Paul had recently formed that Church ... so they were new believers ... right after he left some false teachers came in and they tried to introduce to these believers that they needed to continue to follow the law to ensure their salvation. What I see in this letter is Paul explaining to them that these are false teachers and that he is not a false teacher and then go on and reason with them about why the message of the false teachers is false. I don't think one verse in the letter that says he stands in doubt of them necessarily means that it is his opinion that they are unbelievers ...

    Galatians 3:2-3

    This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


    He asks them did they receive the Spirit by by works of the law, or by the hearing of faith ... so that seems to me that he is saying they have received the Spirit already ... and then he asks if they had begun with the Spirit are they so foolish to think they will be made perfect by the flesh ... so seems to be that he is again saying they have already begun in the Spirit. This doesn't seem to me to be something you say to unbelievers ... because they haven't received the Spirit or begun with the Spirit.


    Galatians 5:5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

    Again this doesn't sound like something you would say to someone you thought was an unbeliever. You don't tell unbelievers to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ had made them free ... so sounds like they had been made free and needed to be reminded of it and encouraged to stand fast in it. And he tells them not to be entangled "AGAIN" which implies that they had been set free.

    When reading the whole letter it sounds to me that he is writing it to people he believes are believers.

    And no I don't think everyone who goes to church is a believer ... but it seems that these new Christians were infiltrated by some false teachers and Paul is trying to nip it in the bud fast to get rid of the influence of these false teachers on them so they can continue in their growth/maturity. Now maybe even in this church not all of them were actual believers ... but it seems to me there were some or most were believers and the letter was addressing the believers in the church not any unbelievers that were there. And since they were such new believers it seems there weren't yet any mature enough to deal with the false teachers so Paul needed to step in and travail until Christ is formed in them ... meaning until they mature (Christ is formed in them) so that they can on their own deal with false teachers ... that is how I understand it.

    And the rest of your post I will have to address later because I need some sleep ...
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  6. #81
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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    No sir.

    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    John was simply saying that when Jesus returns (as in the Second coming) we shall be like him (meaning we would have received our spiritual bodies at that time) and therefore able to see him as he truly is. Since his glorification and ascension, even though he continues to appear to the faithful, yet no one can describe his physical attributes because as sinful flesh, we cannot behold him. Those privileged to see his physical form can only say that his light is brighter than the sun. This is purposeful for, he blinds us with his glory that one cannot after the experience, be able to describe his face! So John is saying that when we, in turn, have been glorified through the resurrection or rapture, be able to see him.
    I don't consider this verse or this chapter to be referring to ONLY a change in our physical form ... actually I think that isn't what the emphasis is at all ... I don't think it is saying we will them be able to describe his physical attributes ... I think it is speaking like the whole chapter is about our mindset. We will see Him as he is because we will have the same mindset as Him ...


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Again, this passage doesn't say what you claim. Here, Paul used the analogy of one looking at an image in a mirror - though you see it, you can't touch it. It does not say that Christ is formed in stages in the heart of a believer.
    I will list the verse again ...

    2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

    Reading the context Paul talks about how Moses had to put a veil on his face ... we don't we can with open (unveiled) face behold as in a mirror the glory of the Lord ... we behold the glory of the Lord and in beholding it we are changed/transformed as we behold the glory of the Lord and the change/transformation is from the Lord the Spirit ... that is how I see it ... so we behold the glory of the Lord and we are changed/transformed into the same image ... so yes we can behold it but we cannot touch it ... I agree with what you say here ... however we with open (unveiled) face can behold the glory of the Lord ... and doing so we are changed/transformed into the same image "from glory to glory" ... what does "from glory to glory" mean ... I don't see how your understanding takes into account these words ... and I never said "Christ is formed in stages in the heart of a believer" ... I would more say it like "The heart of a believer more conforms to Christ in stages." As I said earlier in my last post ... Christ is in us and we are in Christ ... however we change/transform IF WE ARE MATURING to more and more (glory by glory) reflect the Christ in us ...



    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    This is one of my favourite scriptures. KJV says "And be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind...". The passage is not saying that Christ is formed in stages in our lives but rather that, even though we live in this evil world where all sorts of things abominable to God are now acceptable, the believer should not conform to this mindset. This is achieved by renewing our mind and thoughts to things that please God, see Phil 4:8.
    Again I didn't say that Christ is formed in stages in our lives ... my above response should deal with that ... our mindset becomes more and more as His mindset as we renew our mind and not conform to this world ... and that does happen in stages ... however Christ is in us and we are in Christ ... If we are maturing "Christ is being formed in us" meaning we are maturing and becoming more and more Christlike ... and this is a process if we are maturing ...


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The above is verse 13, not 3 and it speaks about maturity in Christ.

    1. Till we all come in the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man = matured Christians, not those that still drink milk.
    2. Unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ = it takes a mature believer to understand the fullness of Christ.
    3. Maturity in Christ doesn't mean that Christ forms in stages in our heart to a certain point that makes us mature. On the contrary, Christ formes in us the minute we believe, then we go on to increase in knowledge of his word (scripture) and this leads to spiritual maturity.
    I agree this is talking about maturity in Christ ... and again I didn't say Christ forms in stages in our heart ... and Christ doesn't form in us the minute we believe ... Christ is in us the minute that we believe ... I think I already explained this above a few times so I don't see the need to repeat it again ...
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I stated the views you expressed above in post #36, so I agree. However, I also observed that as is normal with Jesus, John 14:3 is not limited to the Trinity coming in, to abode in us.

    The subtext in John 14:3b "receive you unto myself" is worthy of diligent examination. I explained my interpretation in details in post #61. The Holy Spirit that indwells us doesn't receive us unto himself. Therefore, this speaks of Jesus Christ receiving us at a separate time unconnected with the coming in to indwell our hearts. Further "that where I am, there ye may be also" is in conjunction with receiving us unto himself.

    In conclusion, I am confident that John 14:3 speaks of a dual prophecy - one fulfilled at Pentecost and the other, Christ coming to receive us during the resurrection/rapture in the eschaton.
    But the grammar speaks of the present tense. John 14:3 gives the tenses as follows:

    "And if I go (future tense) and prepare a place for you, I will come again (future tense), and receive you unto myself; that where I am (PRESENT TENSE), there ye may be also."

    So the prediction, or prophecy is fulfilled when (i) our Lord returns, and (ii) the disciples are where Jesus was as He spoke. On the day He was crucified He went away. On the morning after His resurrection He had "not yet ascended to His Father" as He spoke to the woman at the tomb. They were not to touch Him because of that. But later, after sundown, he met with them and commanded them to touch and handle Him. This could not happen if (i) He had not ascended to His Father, and (ii) if he had not RETURNED. HE CAME AGAIN and after breathing Himself into His disciples, they, the disciples, were, at that moment (present tense), where our Lord was when He predicted these things.

    Pentecost is NOT MEANT. At Pentecost our Lord Jesus did NOT COME AGAIN. At Pentecost the Holy Spirit was not given to make man the ABODE of God. The Greek word means "furnished" or clothed with, and He was NOT given so that the disciples could be were Jesus was, otherwise they would have been translated to heaven. The disciples received the Holy Spirit FOR POWER - NOT TO BE IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN THEM.

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    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    But the grammar speaks of the present tense. John 14:3 gives the tenses as follows:

    "And if I go (future tense) and prepare a place for you, I will come again (future tense), and receive you unto myself; that where I am (PRESENT TENSE), there ye may be also."

    So the prediction, or prophecy is fulfilled when (i) our Lord returns, and (ii) the disciples are where Jesus was as He spoke. On the day He was crucified He went away. On the morning after His resurrection He had "not yet ascended to His Father" as He spoke to the woman at the tomb. They were not to touch Him because of that. But later, after sundown, he met with them and commanded them to touch and handle Him. This could not happen if (i) He had not ascended to His Father, and (ii) if he had not RETURNED. HE CAME AGAIN and after breathing Himself into His disciples, they, the disciples, were, at that moment (present tense), where our Lord was when He predicted these things.

    Pentecost is NOT MEANT. At Pentecost our Lord Jesus did NOT COME AGAIN. At Pentecost the Holy Spirit was not given to make man the ABODE of God. The Greek word means "furnished" or clothed with, and He was NOT given so that the disciples could be were Jesus was, otherwise they would have been translated to heaven. The disciples received the Holy Spirit FOR POWER - NOT TO BE IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN THEM.
    I don't believe John 14.3 has anything to do with rebirth, or with being Baptized in the Holy Spirit. It has to do with Christ returning to glorify his Church, since he had gone to the cross and had prepared a place for us in his Kingdom, redemptively.

    To "come again and receive you to myself" does not necessarily imply the disciples are met by Jesus where they were on earth. Rather, I think this indicates that in the process of his Coming they will be received. The reception takes place in the sky, and not on the earth. He comes again by meeting them in the clouds, which is the 1st step in his descent.

    The woman who was told not to "touch him" was, in context, being asked not to *restrain him* until he had been glorified. The idea was that her relationship with him would continue, but only in a spiritual sense. And that would not happen, in the redemptive sense, until after he had experienced his own glorification and had sat down in the position of divine authority to administer this redemption to her.

    No, Jesus is coming to take us up to heaven, to glorify us, so that we may ultimately take our place in the Kingdom of God, which eventually will be on earth. We must rule 1st, during the Millennium, and only afterwards enter into our eternal place on the New Earth, in my opinion. Our coming again with Christ to the earth consists of establishing Christian rule on earth until the process is completed at the end of the Millennium.

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